Dear @lewm : " to generate 16Hz in my listening room... " well a sub can generates the 16z tone but the real problem is that the 16hz wave is big and can't be " developed " by the room/system.
Big organs normally are instaled in cathedrals/churchs.
The original 1812 Telarc LP ( that many of us own. ) has recorded deep bass notes ( 6hz-8hz ) coming from the different cannon shots and the only I can listen and feel for all and around my body are its harmonics.
The transient response in a room/system that cause the " bass impact " are all harmonics developed by those really deep bass notes.
Even that and at high SPL the experiences with are overwhelming.
In a real room/system almost only the gentlemans that own the MM7 speakers could have a more " complete " experience about that Telarc due that the speaker active subwoofer goes down 7hz but I don't know if M.Lavigne already tested that 1812 LP in his MM7.
R.
|
Dear @drbond : I can see that you are not taking bass quality level sound that's the first and critical target when we are speaking of true high end.
Integration of subs is not only to lower IMD but the bass THD response level because its harmonics are the ones that puts " dirty " and makes that the mid/high frequencies range get dirty too and this fact has a name: degradation sound reproduction.
Talking of quality lvel performance I can't know how your sub's seller can even the quality of the Krell/Gryphon amps and how the THD of each sub stays inside 1% at full power down to 20hz.
In the other side I xcould think that your seller/manufacturer will gives you a configuration of 4 sub's that helps to even the room bass response especially to use in HT systems where you need several seat positions with that evenly bass.
In the other side if your main system is for listen stereo MUSIC then normally you have only one seat position where the mid/high frequency ranges performs at its best and the Harman Int. research shows that for one seat position 2 subs performs really good.
I can't link here the 30 pages of that modeling deep research and here only some highligths:
""" With 5000 subwoofers, modal variation is virtually eliminated. The frequency response at all 16 seats is nearly identical. ASIDE This curve is a combination of 2 influences: The power response of the modeled subwoofers (the simulations included measured Entre 12” subwoofer power responses). The effect of the real-world subwoofer response can be seen above 8 Hz. ""
""" The next four figures show results of optimization of 1 to 4 subwoofers in the test room. Locations of subwoofers were constrained to be along the walls, at intervals of 2 feet. Optimization is based on Std only, i.e. the configuration with the lowest std is considered optimum. ...Obviously, wall midpoint locations result in optimum room response, based on the std anyway. Not surprisingly, symmetrical configurations seem to work better than non�symmetrical ones. Four subwoofers results in the most symmetrical configuration and the best results, but with significantly less (normalized) low frequency output than two subs """
"" Two and four subwoofers at the wall midpoints are still the best configurations overall. Four subwoofers in the corners does not seem as advantageous as when the grid was centered. There is still little or no advantage to using a large number of subwoofers. LF factor still goes down for higher numbers of subwoofers. ""
""" One subwoofer at each wall midpoint is the best in terms of Std, Max-ave and Max-min but does not support low frequencies particularly well. Two subwoofers, at opposing wall midpoints, performs very nearly as well as four at the midpoints and gives a much better LF factor. One subwoofer in each corner also has good low frequency support, but does not perform quite as well as one subwoofer at each wall midpoint, in terms of Std, Max-ave and Max-min. If cost and aesthetics are considered, subwoofers at 2 wall midpoints is preferred. ""
The fact that 4 sub's could even the bass response it does not really matters if you have one seat position where 2 sub's can doit if the sub's have the whole quality levels.
I don't know if you noted on different links in my last post that all those subwoofer ( as the Magico. ) use metal frame for its box. The 1% THD does not comes just at random no inclusive Gryphon said something That I posted here: " his dedicated class AB amps were designed to fulfill the woofers needs and re-read what Dan ?dagostino said in his Krell sub manual and what Wilson posted too and Evolution Acoustics where its common denominator/main target is QUALITY and a side advantage of that quality is to have deeeper bass response.
Anyway is up to you and of course is your money and only you can decide how spend it or invest it.
R.
|
Dear @mijostyn : In this regards and with all respect I really don't care of your opinion because I'm not talking of your " holly grail ". Live with and let live.
R.
|
|
|
@mijostyn : " It is all digitally recorded. "
For many years many of us knowed that and so what?. I can't control recording proccess. Can you?
R.
|
Dear @mijostyn : I did not change my way of thinking on digital reproduction. The issue is that I don't mix analog / digital at same time.
When I'm listening to analog I want to listen the analog alternative colorations and when I listen to digital I like to hear the digital color.
You are totally immerse in digital and nothibng wrong with that because it's what you like it. Maybe in the future I could be immerse in digital too but not now.
Analog has its own and specific color and digital too but way different. drbond is now thinking to mix it, fine for him.
As I already posted your holly grail is just yours and you are enjoying, good.
R.
|
Dear @drbond : As you go followwed reading through google you will make more false assumptions as that one that Velodyne are more for multi-channel HT. Your ststement is not only false but wrong Nothing bad with that because you are or better yet you want to be a newcomer to the sub's room/system integration.
ML is no better than Velodyne: the cone are made by aluminum even Paradigm carbon X and the kind of fiberglass by Velodyne surpass the ML and as almost all subs ML uses too las D amps but there is something crucial that in this thread already was posted and that crucial issue is that we add subwoofers in our high end room/system first to make the IMD and THD goes as lower we can and this issue is to improve severely the whole room/system quality performance ML only bla, bla, bla, in its site ( I know that this bla, bla is something you like it. Ok but means almost nothing ) but with out facts/measures no other but Magico shows its sub's THD a 20hz full SPL.
Velodyne 12" has a better and lower measured frequency response than the ML. So What's your deal about?
Do you think that all those subwofeers manufacturers that use clas D amplifiers all those amps are almost the same ? yes? wrong all those amps are different because each used woofer is different, its self unique characteristics demads that the amplifier can achieve what that woofer needs to shows at its best.
No, your class A or AB you own can't even the woofer needs and this means higher distortions.
@mijostyn is the " worst " ( no offense. ) audiophile gentleman to take it as an example because what he found out was the " holly grail " on that bass rangebut that " holly grail " is only his " holly grail " . He likes to play with his computer/digital that at the ends he used as a very advanced digital equalizer because he manipulated the system frequency response on some discrete frequency to tame the tone color to the tone color that likes mijostyn. Fine with me but not my cup of tea because it does not make sense to put all his efforst in analogue TT/TONEAR/CArtridges and the like when the system signal at the end the signal coming from his speakers/subs are both digital that pass through two filters: ADC/DAC. Again fine with me.
Silver Duelund cap?, ( no offense please ) but you are the typical audiophile that as higher its price has to be better when that Duelund is no more that a mid-fi capacitor. You can read my capacitor thread where you find out several links and first hand experiences with information why the Duelund is mid-fi and what is the role of a cap that has nothing to do with its price. You are a novice too on caps., even some manufaturers of speakers too.
My opinion is that your first step in the " rigth " direction to trial sub's is not the external HPF but a complete subwoofer unit as the 12" Velodyne ones.
R.
|
@drbond : "" I was thinking that the crossover should be below the lowest cello note, which is 44 Hz, as I wouldn’t want the cello to sound like it’s jumping around. ""
As lewm posted and this tstaement confirmed you are a truly novice on sub’s integration to a room/system. That " jumping around " never happens with not the " ultimate " subs/speakers but with any just decent integration.
As lewm posted almost all sub’s in the market comes with lo/high pass filters so you don’t need to add other part but IC cables and that’s it.
Don’t ask your self, as you did it, that will be a " degradation " before your sub’s integration for that trial/tests because the rewards here compensates any degradation you could think. Do it a favor: " don’t think or imagine ", you was who posted to make that trial/test so and with all respect just do it, up to you but can’t pre-judge before listen it. Again, sub’s are not like a change of amps or a cartridges or tonearms, is totally new for you: how can or could you pre-judge with out listen it in your room/system?.
Velodyne is only an option to make that " trial " and if you don’t like just return and put on sale the sub’s. No, the crossover frequency must be not at " 44hz " but at least at 80hz to take advantage of all sub’s/speakers/amps rewards.
Btw, any top room/system ( like yours. ) with passive speakers receives several rewards with the sub's integration.
R.
|
|
Dear @drbond : Your amps is a design with tubes at the input well it’s down there ( a good technician that knows where in that stage and calculation for the cap is need it. ) where the high-pass could goes. No you don’t need digital .
If after your tests you do not like it you always can return as the begin.
"" this subwoofer project is looking complicated.. ""
No, maybe some of our posts made that " looks " complicated but it’s not at the level you are thinking and at the end is a room/system tests .
After those tests you will know where to go. Btw, for your subs test it’s not need it that you go with the 18" Velodyne model, you can make that job with the 15" woofer model.
R.
|
Dear @mijostyn : " and here you are asking me to preach..."
Not really that you took my post to preach is only because you like to show you about. Fine with me and if you read in reality you only repeat what other posts already touch it ! !
My post was to say that you are not the only audiophile with good knowledge and experiences on sub’s/ESL. That’s it.
R.
|
Dear @mijostyn : " never achieve state of the art performance out of your system without subwoofers..."
I agree.
" without a bit of first hand knowledge....
Disagree. Some of us have that first hand experiences and in my case with different kind of main speakers including ESL and between the ESL Soundlab ones and all those experiences in different systems and always in different rooms.
The only coincidence between your room/system and the drbond one is the ESL system link. With all respect: are you trying to say that you are the " God/Emperor " of sub/ESL?
drbond wants to " test " subs and through that " tests " he will achieve the necessary firt hand experiences with to decides about.
With subs the integration to a room/system always is different in almost all, there are no rules and if you have proved and measured rules then this is a good time to share to the Agon community. Don't you think?
Subs integration is not like a change of amplifiers or phono stage or tonearm but something that each owner must have to live. Learning starts reading as he already is doing.
R.
|
Dear @drbond : lewm posted " You want a steep slope on the low pass filter going to the subwoof, because you don’t want the subwoof contributing to midrange ..."
Normaly subs comes with 12db/18db filter shape and the users always can change the low-pass frequency that at the end the sub internal dsp will tell us and through listening tests we can confirm is rigth or we can play with the sub crossover set-up characteristics till we are satisfied with. The Velodyne low-pass shape by default is 24db ( steep as lew posted. ) but selectable and its high-pass shape is 6db. My old Velodyne low-pass filter shape " initial 12db, 48db ultimate ", is what I read in its manufacturer specs.
In the other side, adding sub’s in any room/system means too that maybe we can need some kind of different room treatment maybe not or we can find out that we need to move a little the main speaker positions.
Subwoofers per se is not a " key on hand " solution to open the " door ", we always need some kind of work for the room/system good integration.
R.
|
Dear @drbond : You already know that in the audio world always exist trade-offs when we want to make some room/system changes, nothing is perfect so don’t try to look for because just does not exist.
You need only a high pass because the low pass is made it by the sub’s. Now you can have that high pass with and active external crossover or you can do it at the input of your amps and for me this is the best high-pass trade-off because you add almost nothing: no added electronics, cables and input/output connectors.
The signal that goes to the amps from the CH goes directly or through the external high-pass filter and from your CH goes too directly to the subs. Btw, usually the high-pass filter setting up is in the 80hz-100 hz and you do not needs that the external/internal high-pass has additional gain because the high-pass gain is handled by the preamp. The gain of the low-pass by the sub's.
That’s it.
R.
@lewm : " I truly did wonder why you thought Raul’s quote was humorous. " . Easy, because he did not think in that way before. Seems to me that is his way of audio life kind of think because he posted twice something with no sense in reference to what I posted about sub’s, he said twice: " you was not the first person to said that " .
But where in hell posted I that " I was the first audiophile to said that " ?
|
Lew, the high pass is made it at the input of my amps ( cap/resistor ) the low pass is made it by the Velodyne electronics. Maybe you can do the same or look for a second hand Bryston croosver.
In the link I just posted you can read about 12"/15" drivers characteristics inside the same catalog models.
R.
|
Dear @drbond : " adding a subwoofer can make a real difference in other areas, such as sound stage, imaging, mid-range, etc. I’m not really sure things can sound much better, but I think it’s at least worth a trial to see if it’s any better..."
Yes, exist several room/system benefits but your " key " words in that statement are:
" worth a trial..."
I could think that no matters what no one could knows if needs or not sub’s till he " trials " in his room/system.
Yes, you have to test it.
R.
|
Dear @holmz @drbond : At the end digital tech is used in almost all today subwoofers through the DSP that is the one that can gives us ( comes with a microphone. ) where in position and to our " ears " makes the " best " system/room integration.
drbond, today there are 20+ true subwoofer manufacturers so we have a wide range about. Btw, can works really fine with your SL, no problem.
This one is the today Velodyne ( mines are out of production 16 years ago. ). My way of thinking is to go with the " winner " till be outperformed:
https://www.velodyneacoustics.com/en/products/digital-drive-plus/#digital-drive-18-plus
I know by references that its DSP software is really good. The sub’s integration is critical.
You will know if your choosed sub’s are well integrated when those subs never tells you " hey I’m here " ( boom, boom, boom.... ) but only when the MUSIC is demanding asking for. When the subs are well integrated you can’t detect from where comes the bass other that when the score ask it but when the scrore is asking for the experience is just unique/marvelous and full of emotions, nothing can even it.
R.
Even this 32K dollars can't even the Velodyne THD 0.5%. Well certainly maybe the best sub out there and you need 64K :
https://www.magicoaudio.com/news/magico-titan-15-the-ultimate-powered-subwoofer-2
|
Dear @holmz : A subwoofer is a complete solution where the crossover is only an inherent and important part of any sub ( a key like you posted. ) along the box, drivers and the like. The crossover is not a second product but is part of the subwoofer it self that must has a low/high pass filters and several other functions.
Analog or digital are only options and convenience for the audiophiles to choose in between.
The subwoofer bass solution with good integration to the main speakers and room give you huge benefits. We can't talk here of disadvantages in the same way we can't say that a phono stage has the disadvantage of the RIAA eq. because it's part of the phono stage in the same way that creossover is integral part of a subwoofer.
Btw, when we have well integrated subs in our system there is no come back, we learn that we can't listen any more with out it due that helps to lower the distortions levels of not only the speakers but amplifiers too and several other advantages.
R.
|
Dear @drbond : The swarm is nothing new and the main problem is that its subs are of low quality because they think that eliminating bass standing waves almost everything is solved and it's not exactly that way in the other side the ones that sale the swarm " scenario " almost always tell the audiophiles that an advantage is that bass is " rigth " does not matters where the audiophile is seated.
Many years ago the Harrrrman Group ( JBL, Infinity, Levinson, etc, etc,. ) made a in deep scientific research ( modeling. ) about subwoofers and they determined that the ideal number in subwoofers in home be 4 subwoofers but that 2 subwoofers were enough in a home system and for one seat position.
Subwoofers mainly is not about how deep goes but before that is the quality level has that reprodutcion bass at least to 16hz. Not all subwoofers give you the same quality level.
One very well regarded subwoofers are the JL Audio that have very good look but that inside mesurements showed at full SPL and obviously at 20hz a THD of around 6%.
The Velodyne's I own measured only 0.5% on THD thanks that the sub is checking over 18K times per second the woofer excursion.
Other quality characteristic that you have to look for is that the subwoofer be a sealed design, it does not goes down to 6hz-8hz as the ported/open-box ones ( well if the sealed one design is the " rigth " one can goes to 6hz-8hz but needs not only a bigger driver but a big box and very good construction of that box. ).
If you can find out a sealed sub with paper cone drivers the better if bass quality matters for you.
R.
|
Dear @drbond : Mainly what we listen are the developed harmonics coming from all the discrete frequencies in all the instruments in any score.
Developed harmonics " contaminate " all the frequency range and represent the MUSIC we are listen it.
That’s why is so important in any home system to tame perfectly the bass range and from here comes the subwoofers necessity/a must.
Problem is the integration with the main speakers but when that is solved then the IMD and THD goes lower than before and MUSIC starts to really shines in our room/system.
There are no disadvantages I be aware to usind subwoofers and several advantages including to the main speakers amplifiers.
In asystem with subwoofers the mid range and high frequencies are improved to levels many of us can’t imagine because with out the main speaker low bass those 2 frequency ranges are cleaned de that through the subs the bass harmonics comes with way lower distortion levels, with subwoofers disappears the bass trash developed by the bass in the main speakers: ligth comes in that room/system.
Btw, this article is a learning one about fast bass/slow bass. I took from the subwoofer dedicated thread in Agon that I started in 2005:
SoundStage! Max dB - Fast Bass, Slow Bass - Myth vs. Fact (06/1999) (soundstagenetwork.com)
R.
|
Dear @mijostyn : " without subwoofers the SoundLabs will crap a brick regardless of what amp you are using to drive them. "
You are rigth and is my experience not only with the Soundlab and other electrostatic . Electrostatic speakers could start to fail between 35hz-40hz and down listening at live MUSIC SPL and as you said it's a matters of distortion levels and that's why any passive dynamic speakers needs to works with subwoofers no matters what.
To handled " accurately " that low bass subwoofers is a must and have not substitute.
R.
|
@drbond : Always that we can is healthy that the counterweigth be as close the tonearm pivot/bearing as is posible because between other things improves the LP tracking.
R.
|
@holmz : " so how important is all this stuff? "
Wel, today almost only through Löfgren alignments is the way to set up any cartridge along a pivoted tonearm. So it’s way important.
Now, Löfgren alignments exist and its internet calculators ( Vlinyl Engine has other good calculator alternative. ) and what’s important is tomake the cartridge/set up as accurate we can do it. Tiny errors with the set up makes a difference for not so good quality performance. Many times we even are not aware of those errors because through evaluations listen sessions we really don’t know what to look for.
The other parameters in a set-up as VTA/SRA/Zenith/AZ/VTF and the like are way imortant too to achieve the best quality performance levels we can
Even that we can take extreme care on the overall set-up you can be sure is not perfect as always exist trade-offs due the intrinsical relationship between all those parameters where ( example ) a change in VTF changes too other parameters that you have to modify and is an almost endless situation.
So, we have to try that our cartridge/tonearm be at its best each one of us can.
Btw and I already posted: unidin is not a new alignment that could needs a especial calculator with different equations that the Löfgren alignments, unidin is only a manipulation of the input parameters in the normal calculators but forgeret that as Stevenson A is inferior alignment to the LÖfgren ones. Don't worry about.
R.
|
Dear @holmz @drbond : In reality Schroder is using Löfgren alignment the A one.
Things are that years after Löfgren created his alignments A/B Baerwald alignment solution gives exactly the same value set up parameters however almost all audiophiles gave to Baerwald the credit for that alignment when was not Baerwald who first did it but Löfgren with his A solution.
R.
|
Dear @mijostyn : For years I used the B alignment and today I use the A alignment.
In numbers the B alignment gives you 0.04% on average RMS distortion lower than the A alignment but in the other side both kind of alignments are almost the same and its difference is that the B one overhang is 0.46 mm longer than the A alignment.
My common sense says that you or me in reality can't be absolute sure which is the alignment we are using or maybe we are in between or near A or near B.
In anyway the distortion numbers are so close and the change groove after groove is no higher than 0.001% that not even a bat can discern about.
Now, make an unbiased test with same tonearm, same cartridge and same everything: unmount thecartridge and then mount it as if will be the first time and make that excersice at least twice and you can be sure that both tests exist tiny very tiny differences.
Btw, unidin is not a standard alignment and ceratinly has not new equations alignmwent but only a manipulation of Löfgren parameters. Any one can has its own alignment if knows how manipulate those parameters. VPI tonearms have its own alignment. Through Analog Planet site M.Fremer with the help of his mentor ( Wally that pass away. ) made the comparison between all the standard alignments and the unidin one looking for the distortion levels where was clear that Löfgren was better. Unidin is only marketing and nothing more than that. As I said number manipulation and it's really easy to know that manipulation.
For me always is better to go with the Standard Löfgren A/B.
R.
|
@sksos : " a sound that keeps me engaged and enjoying the music and brings the musicians into my space, or better yet me into their space. "
How what I posted could goes against your statement or against true fidelity? or against accuracy that you mentioned??
About SUT I owned/own over 15 different units including Kondo and I listen Kondo electronics several times in my system.
Certainly you can’t know what is true fidelity when your all tube phono stage is inherently just colored, yes is what you like and this is not under questioning.
Btw, I was not know that you are an audio dealer, it’s ok. No problem with.
R.
|
Dear @sksos : M.Lavigne made a suddenly ( at least for me that I followed him by years. ) turn around to tubes and SUT both no matters what goes against true fidelity ( best SUT is not SUT at all. ) to reproduce adding and losting the less to what the cartridge signal pick-up from the LP groove modulations. Tubes are the worst alternative for a phono stage. Only an opinion and I listen in my system to tubes for at least 10 years.
Could be important that you consider seriously to the SimAudio Moon 810LP fully diferential and dual mono SS phono stage that believe me not only can competes with any tube unit but outperform it easily and can competes bis a bis against any other SS top phono stage as CH or Boulder or Dartzeel or almost any one.
Here a TAS review where was surrounded by top speaker/electronics/analog:
Simaudio Moon 810LP Phono Preamplifier - The Absolute Sound
Think on it about. Could be very appreciated by your Bricasti amplifier and a MUSIC enjoyment for you as never before.
R.
810LP Phono Preamp | Best Turntable Preamplifier | MOON - Simaudio
|
Dear @drbond : " In a couple of months..." every one has his own " strategy " to make tests/comparisons.
For me 2+ months is non adequated because in that time our ears/brain will be accustom to that specific sound overall " colorations ". Rigth now you like what you listen to and I think is the rigth time to start to make the voltage vs current comparisons, doing it before our brain been a little or to much sticky with the current mode. Could be that maybe you will like more one of your cartridges with the current mode and the other with the voltage mode. Again, I think is the rigth time.
But as I said each one decides about.
R.
|
Dear @drbond : " Would I hear anything adversely by having the gain so high.."
The best for you is to ask directly to AnalogMagik.
In the other side that " oddly " VTA with the Atlas is something that you have to ask for too. I don't know if that could means that you have to " play " a little with the cartridge VTA till be inside that 5% range limit even that you set up the Atlas VTA where you like it the more.
R.
|
Dear @drbond : About speaker SPLs what I tryed to say is that in my case when I tests a new audio item in my system I try always that the measured SPLs coming from the speakers at seat position been evenly ( as I can. ) the SPLs during the listening test sessions before and after the test of new audio item. It’s healthy to do it that way because our ears are very sensitive to minuscle SPL changes and those little SPL changes could makes that the new item like it or dislike it more than the " old " one.
In the other side the nalizer inside the CH takes the new cartridge impedance parameter and after modeling internally tells you due to the overall characteristics of the CH quality design/performance which gain level is the better with that cartridge and obviously that does not takes in count if you like it or not. It’s a test/fact/objective.
Yes, the AnalogMagik tool can help you.
R.
|
@drbond : I hope/could understand that the listening SPL from the speakers stays the same with or with out the changes you did it. Is it that way?
R.
|
Dear @drbond : You said that your manual 25db gain set up like you the more that what was the CH gain choosed for that cartridge .
However the CH calculated gain has an advantage:
" The P1 comes with a test LP designed to work with the P1's internal distortion analyzer. With the test LP playing, the P1 Gain Wizard will read the test signal and automatically choose a gain level which yields the lowest signal to noise ratio. "
You posted if 15db is good 25db must be better and maybe is not that way.
In the other side are you listen it with the standard inverse RIAA eq. or with the Neumann pole?
Btw, that brigthness that you did not like it sounded with both cartridges you own?
R.
|
Dear @drbond : Well time to enjoy MUSIC, good ! ! !
Only to understand that current mode PS designs has no real advantage with any LOMC cartridge. This post came from a person with high knowledge technical levels and through his post puts true ligth on that current vs voltage kind of designs, read carefully especialyy its conclusion:
R.
|
@drbond : "strongly favor the FM223, but recognized that it didn’t have enough gain for many systems. ""
Well, those gentlemans ignore that FMA can give you the 223 with the gain you can need it.
R.
|
|
@drbond : No, not current design but very good performers.
This Agoner just bougth two phono stages one voltage and one current designs and at least his preview of a top current design was not very good against the other new voltage design unit:
I think that if you are biased to the current designs you need to listen the unit you want against a voltage new unit in the same room/system and with your cartridges.
The advantage with today good top voltage designs is that we can't go wrong with.
R.
|
No one of them in your price range but ....! ! ! !
R.
|
|
Please don't distress because its extremely low price.
R.
|
@drbond : Why don't go with the myjostin phono stage advise the : L20?
R.
|
@drbond : " most solid state amplifiers, as I'm sure you're aware is dramatically geometric, and that's why solid state can sound so bad at the extremes. "
I respect your opinion and maybe you are talking of SS electronics coming from the " old " times. TODAY what makes the differences for the better in SS over tube alternative are precisely the excellent wide and accurated frequency extremes ! ! !
along its very low noise and distortion levels with extremely low output impedance.
R.
|
lewm, certainly it has to do with phono stage because this unit will be inserted in an audio system. You confirm what I said: no common sense to help OP in this thread or any other thread. As you are accusto to: always argumentative. No problem.
In one of the last theads in this forum the OP ask for advise to change his cartridge and his budget was 2K-3K.
Well, the very first post was from a gentleman with common sense trying to help the OP:
" You would be better off buying a better quality phono stage first................."
Followed by other two audiophiles with a +1. This is what I'm talking about: HELP other people.
R.
|
This is not the only example where a reviewer speaks wonders on an audio item and measurements says NO it’s not true.
I remember that years ago that same magazyne and same gentlemans made the review/measurements of the over 60K Vitus phono stage and the reviewer said that the unit had really good and tigth low bass but that unit ( if I remmeber ) design use the IEC RIAA eq. that makes that from around 50hz the bass goes very quich down/fall. There are more examples/facts.
Measures can tell us a lot of things on any audio electronics items IF we are willing to accept it. That IF is the big problem for we audiophiles/MUSIC lovers.
R.
|
Dear @drbond : " However, the data can only reveal what we currently measure. I think it’s important to consider that we don’t know enough about sound to know everything to measure or how to measure it fully. "
Yes, data is what we measure. What’s wrong with that? and yes till today does not exist measurement proccess that can tell us how an amp can sound but this fact does not means that today we can diminish measures like in the past like the corrupted AHEE teached to us.
J.Atkinson is not a simple mesurement gentleman he was an analog lover till 10-15 years ago when he learned about and left it, it’s a very well regarded reviewer and it’s one with a lot more honesty than other reviewers ( he can’t recomend the Hyperions when MF did it. What a difference ! ! ! ) and it’s a recording engineer.
It’s ovbious that any gentleman that spends 90K+ in an audio item be at defensive attitude against facts with not very good quality design in that audio item.
But this is not only about measurements but about common sense. Ypsilon likes transformers and almost all is transformer coupled and that fact means that the audio signal travel for those " hundreds " of meters of transformers wires that certainly damage that audio signal and I said common sense because almost a rule is that we connect the tonearm to the phono stage input with the shorter IC cable to let at minimum degradation signal issues and here we are speaking of 1m. now imagine if the audio signal must travel over " hundred " of wire meters. Higher distortions that you like and is fine with me.
Common sense tells not spend high K $$$ to achieve top quality level in the cartridge signal only for that valuable cartridge signal be destroyed in the next system links. That’s all and is up to you because in this thread all gentlemans already gave you a lot of choices many of them with out that " common sense ".
Btw, FR on the Hyperion against load speaker impedance . This is a fact not imagination or subjective:
Anyway, enough.
R.
|
lewm always argument something with " wrong " questions as this to myjos:
" You have heard the JC1 and the Hyperion driving the same pair of Sound Lab speakers in the same room with the same upstream gear? "
First mijos was not talking of the old JC1 but today JC1+ that's way different and maybe he never read the MF review along the measurements on the Hyperion amps where we can read:
by MF:
"
No doubt the single tube in the Hyperion's signal path subtly greased the musical proceedings with a smooth yet transparent overlay of richness. Having become acclimated in recent years years to the sound of the darTZeel NHB-458, which is less generous in the upper bass and lower midrange (detractors of solid-state designs might describe its sound as "thin") and is faster in the transient realm (detractors might say "overly and unrealistically sharply drawn"), the gross distinctions between these two great performers were easily audible..........
But even while the contours of the new sound were still easily definable and the differences between the two amplifiers were still clear...."
and JA measurements comments:
"
While the Hyperion's input impedance is specified as a moderately high 47k ohms, my measurements indicated a lower value at low and middle frequencies: just over 21k ohms for both the balanced and unbalanced inputs. This is still high enough not to be an issue, but at 20kHz the impedance dropped to just 3k ohms, which will be marginal with some preamplifiers, rolling off the top octave. Fortunately, this shouldn't have affected Michael Fremer's listening, given his associated equipment: His Ypsilon PST-100 preamplifier has a low output impedance, and his darTZeel preamplifier has a fairly uniform, if high, output impedance across the audioband.
Despite the Hyperion's large number of output devices, its output impedance was relatively high for a solid-state design, at 0.35 ohm. As a result, the modification of the amplifier's frequency response with our standard simulated loudspeaker reached ±0.25dB (fig.1, gray trace). Of more concern is the ultrasonic peak in the Hyperion's response, centered between 40 and 50kHz and reaching 2dB in height. The peak gave rise to a single damped cycle of oscillation with a 10kHz squarewave (fig.2) and was not affected by the load impedance, which suggests that it occurs before the output stage, perhaps at the input transformer.
However, as figs. 3–5 reveal, at our usual definition of clipping, at which the THD+noise reaches 1%, the Hyperion delivered 239W into 8 ohms (23.8dBW), 400W into 4 ohms (23dBW), and 315W into 2 ohms (19dBW). It did meet its specified power when I relaxed the definition of clipping to between 1.4% and 2% THD+N, but these are disappointing results.
Of more concern in these graphs is the Hyperion's linear increase in distortion with increasing power output above a few hundred milliwatts. While the THD+N percentage remains acceptably low below 10W or so, above that power, and especially at low frequencies, it reaches levels that will be audible with continuous pure tones...
When MF comments on "the immediately obvious added harmonic and textural richness," that it is what I would expect from this distortion signature. In addition, the Hyperion's intermodulation distortion was not as low as I would have liked.
Given that, it is not an amplifier that I would recommend, especially given its price. While I have found that power amplifiers tend to sound different from one another, I feel they should be engineered to be as close to neutrally balanced as possible, and not designed to produce a "tailored" sound, as the Hyperion seems to be.—
Obviously dover made the same that lewm in this specific matter. As I said, knowledge levels is the " name of the game ".
R.
|
Enjoy the Music reviewer on the OP model:
" The company claims that the speaker requires only 60 Watts to perform to its high standards, though my experience sheds some doubt on the usefulness of this figure. The Pass Labs A-250 Class A amplifier, which was otherwise a tonally wonderful match for the speaker, was unable to control the speaker's bottom end satisfactorily. In this regard, the Merrill VERITAS mono-bloc amplifiers at 400/watts a side proved far more to the speaker's liking. "
At the end really don't care about because I don't own those speakers but I listened and are very good ones.
R.
R.
|
@lewm : You can listen the Devialet audio electronics. I don't know if today still handled phono stage unit but I heard it and was really good.
Exist other manufacturers that have a digital RIAA in its design.
Btw, the today JC is really different to the old ones and every body knows that you are married with tubes in that specific sytem link. Nothing wrong with me.
R.
|
Dear @mijostyn : "" has way more features than I will ever need or use. It looks beautifully made. It's "Hum and Noise" spec is very misleading. "Equivalent input noise below full output 22 Hz - 22kHz: - 137 dBu." I have no idea what that means. "
Yes, me neither and about the spec figure I posted because you posted before the same kind of noise figure for the L20 and that's all.
In the other side and talking of the L20:
" By virtue of his feeling that digital RIAA correction is superior to analog filters "
With today digital technology I agree with him. You can outperform easily RIAA deviation accuracy in the digital domain and you can " do " anything you want it with digital that you can't in analogue because you have to pay the " price " doing in analogue.
Problem with inverse RIAA eq is that the anlog lovers just can't digest that the beloved LPs be listened through a DAC in the phono stage. A really complex whole audio industry issue for say the least.
R.
|
Dear @dover : " this was posted by @lohanimal and I said agree with his post:
" Many a reviewer has very specific loves/prejudices - Martin Colloms loves Naim and Linn - Roy Gregory anything stocked by Audiofreaks (he had to answer letters about this in hi fi plus) - Michael Fremer (anything new and stupendously expensive) . "
That gentleman always does that and is in " love " with the " week audio item " till discover the next " marvel ".
Why don’t ask him to make a comparison between the amps he has rigth now against the JC1+ and ask too for absolute honesty about.
Expen$ive is far away to be a synonymous of quality in audio items as the ones we are talking about.
There is a CH P1 issue that @mijostyn mentioned and that I already was thinking before:
" The CH was also on my list but it fell off due to price and the admission that it’s stock power supply is not good enough. They will be happy to sell you a second one so now you have paid for two power supplies instead of the one you should have had ...."
When we are talking of first rate quality design what happened with CH should not be happened through the original design and specially in the power supply that is designed and calculated extremely carefully to cover all " fundamental and not fundamental issues ". Power supply is the most important characteristic in a SS phonolinepreamp specially at that $$$$.
CH ask all the P1 unit owners to spend additional 17K dollars for the power supply that should be came in the original design and when the owner spend those 17K for the new power supply the original power supply that the owners already paid for is totally out of operation. Incredible and more incredible is that owners are so happy only because are gentlemans with a lot of money to spend. Such is life. Of course CH are really happy with.
Btw, there is one critical and way important issue in audio that $$$ can't buy and it's KNOWLEDGE top levels.
R.
|
