Phono Stage upgrade to complement Dohmann Helix One Mk 2

So, I made a purchase of a phono stage, and I bought the CH Precision P1 phono stage with X1 power supply.  Thanks to everyone for their contribution to this thread, and to my education.  I especially appreciate the recommendations of those who brought my attention to this new technology in current-based phono stages.  I wouldn't have had any idea about this new type of phono stage without several of your contributions. 

After a week or listening, I am very impressed with the sound quality of the device, and it sounds worlds better than the Manley Steelhead, which was and is a very good phono stage. 

I really do like the idea of the current-based operation of a phono stage, and I was always somewhat philosophically disturbed by how variable loading could affect the sound of LP's and cartridges, but I wasn't aware of any other options.  With the CH Precision, the gain is the only variable, and it comes with a record and a "gain wizard" software that selects the best gain for each cartridge played, based on certain parameters.  Additionally, if I wanted to use an SUT with my MC, or use an MM, I could use the MM/MC input on the device, and there are supposedly 500 different loadings possible in the CH Precision P1, all the way from 20 ohms to 100k ohms, and a "loading wizard" software with a record can help select the best loading for the cartridge also. 

As for the sound, it's quite amazing:  the musicality is still very present, but the clarity and detail are present on a much greater scale.  It is most noticeable with larger, orchestral pieces, where the sound stage and separation of the instruments is much greater.  There's not as significant an improvement with solo pieces:  while the sound quality is definitely improved, and clearer; the slight distortion that the Manley Steelhead created was very musically pleasing with solo instruments. 

If I could criticize the unit, I would say that it is almost too precise, clear, and detailed, which does remove some bit of the musicality of the performance (when operating the device at what the "gain wizard" software considers to be the "optimal" gain).  Another difference that I notice is that the presentation is such that instead of making you feel like the performers are in my home, it makes me feel like I am at the performance, or recording studio. 

Interestingly, the "gain wizard" software on the P1 selected the "optimal" gain to be +15 db for both the Lyra and Koetsu cartridges into the MC current input.  (The selected gain is based on the internal resistance of the MC cartridge.)  At this gain, the music is very detailed, precise, accurate, but I perceive it to be slightly bright.  In my opinion, this accuracy and brightness is due to the gain chosen by the "gain wizard".  When I select the gain myself, based upon what I appreciate as natural music, I choose a gain of 0 db.  At 0 db gain, the P1 is not only still very detailed and accurate, but also thoroughly musical.  Listening to any performance, I get the impression that I am at the performance, and everything sounds as real as it would, without any of the larger than life "bloom" that I get from the Manley Steelhead.  However, I must admit, I do sometimes enjoy that large "bloom," while recognizing that it is some degree of distortion.  This perceived perfect sonic balance at 0 db gain may also be due to using my Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 SE in passive mode at maximum volume, which is approximately 0 db attenuation.  So, my current assessment is:  0 db gain with 0 db attenuation = ideal, realistic sound quality. 

Playing the P1 unit by itself lends a lean, clean sound, and it sounds excellent, but adding the X1 power supply does add a robustness to the sound. 

In the coming months, I plan on connecting the MC cartridges to the voltage-based MM/MC input, and playing with the loading wizard, and comparing the sonic differences, as compared to the current-based MC input. 

Well, there’s not much like a new turntable and phono stage to leave room for adjustments:  a member suggested that I adjust the VTA because of the brightness I was hearing, so I lowered the tonearm about 0.75 mm, and the brightness that I previously heard is gone.  I am now running full gain (25db) through the current mode MC input, and it sounds great, very sonorous, and without that brightness.  The “gain wizard” software still suggests to run at 15db gain, based on the test record included with the phono stage, but I guess I figure that if 15db is good, 25db must be better!  
With the gain increased, it sounds like I moved from the mid-back of the auditorium to the front.

Thanks for everyone’s recommendations!

@onhwy61 

Yes, the Dohmann Helix One Mk 2 has space for two tonearms, which I am running two Schroder CB 11 tonearms, with the aforementioned cartridges. 

@rauliruegas 

Thanks for the FM acoustic recommendation, but are there any other brands that you can also recommend, which may be your #2 and #3 choices? 

@tablejockey 
Thanks.  I realize that I probably only have 10-15 years left of good hearing, so I may as well spend my money on something I can enjoy for a while. . . 

@lewm 

Thanks for clarifying some details about the SUT.  What are some current driven phono stages that you would recommend?

Thanks. 

@rauliruegas 

While I appreciate your recommendations, I will have to admit that such dramatic and extreme comments such as you have mentioned about the Ypsilon products make me question the validity of some of your perspectives.  I've never heard music any better than with the Ypsilon amplifier and pre-amplifier.  Even with my "lowly" Manley Steelhead connected to they Ypsilons, the performers sound like they're in my room, so I'm looking forward to hearing how much improvement there is with an upgraded phono stage.  

Perhaps you're correct that another amplifier, like a DartZeel, would perform better than the Ypsilon, perhaps not; perhaps they just render slightly different presentations.  I highly doubt the JC1+ would produce anything close to what I currently hear.  

Regardless, please just stick with discussion about phono stages on this thread. 
Thanks. 

Thanks for everyone's contribution to this thread.  I'm finding the discussion rather informative.  

It appears that most on this forum seem to advocate for a SS type phono stage, as opposed to a tube type phono stage.  I'm not certain of my preference at this point.  
While some point out that an excellent sound system should reproduce music, regardless of the type of music played through the system, I'm not convinced of that either, as the musical instruments in classical music behave entirely differently than the modern synthesized music, which has little complexity, and no harmonics to the instruments by comparison.  

@rauliruegas : what type of music do you listen to in your system and what type of live music do you listen to?  
Thanks. 

@lewm 

Yes, both cartridges that I'm running are LOMC (Lyra Atlas, and Koetsu Urushi Black).  With my limited understanding of SUT, a potential disadvantage is that if I change the cartridge, then the SUT should also change, based on the internal resistance of the MC (although it seems that as long as you stay within certain parameters, the SUT might not need changing).  
What are some of the "top line balanced, current-driven" phono stages?  
Thanks.

@jperry 

Thanks for the recommendation, but it appears that the Nagra phono stage only has one MC input, and one MM input. To accommodate the Dohmann, I would need two MC inputs.

@vassilis_t 

Thanks for sharing your set up.  Are you able to describe any audible differences that can be attributed to the Ypsilon VPS vs the FM Acoustics 122?  Have you tried to switch one phono stage from one system to the other to listen for any changes?

I read some about the Zanden, but I'm currently not too interested; however I did read some about the Allnic H8000 DHT, which sounds intriguing, but there aren't many reviews of that item.  Superficially, what attracts my attention to the Allnic is the transformer coupled nature and no negative feedback (similar to Ypsilon), features which I seem to appreciate,  . 

@drrsutliff 

I'll have to look closer at the DSA Phono III.  Have you heard it?  What can you compare it to?  Any particular attributes that you appreciate? 
Thanks. 

@alucard19 

Thanks for your recommendation, but the Whest audio only has one input:  i would need two.  

@laoman 

Thanks for the recommendations, but both the CS Port C2 EQM 2 and the EMT 128 (both of which are but phono stages, and look like high quahily products) only have one input.  With my two tonearms, I would prefer a phono stage with two inputs. 

@lewm 

Interesting insight about the Manley Steelhead.  I assume that you have replaced some of the capacitors in your unit?  Who would I send my unit to if I were interested in "upgrading" the Manley Steelhead with new/different capacitors?  
Thanks. 

@lewm 

I can contact Dave Slagle myself, but thanks for the offer.  I'll let you know what I hear from him.  Oddly, my Manley Steelhead power supply unit just started buzzing last week (as if it knew that I was looking to replace it, or perhaps I knew that it was going to start acting up), so I'm sending in the PSU to Manley for repair, so it might be a perfect time to send the head unit to Mr Slagle for an upgrade!

@rauliruegas

Thanks for sharing your research on the Manley Steelhead. It does seem that most people are preferring the SS phono stages these days. . .

@lewm

I heard back from David Slagle, and he said that he’s "not familiar with the Steelhead, so I’m not sure how much help I could be in improving it"

@tablejockey

@no_regrets

Yes, I have an audiophile friend who has had the Wave Kinetics Deluxe Reference 5.1 phono stage for years, and he enjoys it; he says it’s much quieter than an Allnic phono stage, but that he still prefers the newer SS phono stages. . .
Thanks for your recommendation.

@lewm 

Thanks.  I'll DM you this weekend, although Mr Slagle didn't sound too excited about doing anything with the Steelhead, as I'd contacted him 4-6 months ago about an EM/IA LR phono corrector. . .

@rauliruegas 

Thanks for sharing your musical preferences.  That allows me to better understand your  musical perspective.  I understand that you want a system that reproduces every nuance, as if you are in the orchestra with the musicians, along with the microphones, and the Lyra Atlas definitely makes me feel that way, and I understand why you have such an affinity for that cartridge.  On the other hand, the Koetsu does make you feel like you are further back in the audience seating, where details are lost, but some people think the sounds combine more musically the further back you are from the orchestra / musicians.  Your perception is that this effect of the Koetsu is s a deficiency, and technically, I suppose you are correct.  

As previously mentioned, it does seem that most experienced audiophiles do prefer a SS phono stage, and I am looking in that direction.  While I haven't researched all the recommendations yet, I would say that I'm preliminarily leaning towards the CH Precision P1 with X1 power supply.  

Thanks. 

@clearthinker 

@lohanimal 

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the various phono stages that you've heard. 

I'll have to look more closely at Constellation. . . I imagine it would be quite similar to the CH Precision. 

@dover 

Thanks for sharing those links.  I'll have to review them this weekend, when I have a few free moments.  

Thanks also for your recommendation of the van den Hul Grail SE+, as a current-based phono stage.  That seems to be a contender.  @kennyc also recommended that one. 

@lewm 

Thanks for bringing up a shortcoming of the FM Acoustics phono stage.  Since my pre-amplifier is Ypsilon, and I run it in the passive mode, I would need a phono stage with higher gain settings. 

@mijostyn 

Thanks for the recommendation of the Channel D Seta L20, which is another current-based phono stage.  I'll have to admit that I'm most skeptical about this one, though, as I'm not sure if it's really going to be worth the $60k, if another one for $30-40k is just as good. . . 

So far, I would have to place my leading contenders as all current-based phono stages: 
CH Precision P1

van den Hul Grail SE+

Channel D Seta L20

I really appreciate everyone's contribution to my learning experience, as I would really otherwise have no idea where to start.  

@dover

I have to agree with you: measurements are only a guide. I am personally not convinced that we know enough about hearing to rely definitively on measurements. For instance, I have played several stringed instruments, and I have observed that when one string is played, it’s not just that string that vibrates and intonates sound, but you also get a minor vibration of any strings in that same note, usually one octave higher, which would be the second harmonic, if I’m not mistaken. Interestingly, this is the same harmonic that the Ypsilon Hyperions accentuate when pushed to the limit, which sounded very good (in fact, the best I have ever heard); however, the measurements demonstrate this as distortion.

@mijostyn

Yes, I’m sure the JC1+ are great amplifiers, but I doubt they could hold much to either the Lamm M2.2 (which, by the way, are also excellent amplifiers) or the Ypsilon Hyperion. If someone wants to ship me a pair to central Florida, I’l listen with an open mind and report back. . .

@rauliruegas

You are no doubt very knowledgeable, and probably know more about specifications and engineering than most people here. However, the data can only reveal what we currently measure. I think it’s important to consider that we don’t know enough about sound to know everything to measure or how to measure it fully. While analyzing data is definitely a strength of yours, I’m of the opinion that the data can sometimes be misleading, and incomplete, and listening to the Hyperions seems to confirm my opinion, despite Atkinson’s measurements.

Now, if anyone can recommend any other current-based phono stages, with two MC inputs, I’m all ears!

This thread that was supposed to be about top of the line phono stages has temporarily morphed into a thread about amplifiers. . .

@rauliruegas

Of course I was aware of the so-called "weakness" of the Ypsilon Hyperions before I bought them. Importantly, the distortion that is graphed in your picture is linear, and only at very high frequency. Distortion in musical instruments is also rather linear, so the amplifier seems well designed for music.  (Distortion in most solid state amplifiers, as I'm sure you're aware is dramatically geometric, and that's why solid state can sound so bad at the extremes.)

By your critique of transformers, it seems that you need to learn how transformers actually work.

I suppose a good summary of this last part of this discussion is that we don’t know as much as some people think that we know, and that includes engineers and doctors.

@rauliruegas 

Thanks for your phono stage recommendations.  I haven't looked at the details of those three that you recommended.  Are they all current based phono stages?  
Thanks. 

@rauliruegas

I personally have not investigated the purported benefits of a current design vs voltage design in the phono stage, however, most on this forum seem to indicate that a current design will be more precise and detailed due to the effect on the MC cartridge, if I’m not mistaken.
I personally, hold no bias towards either design, but I am simply looking to purchase the best sounding phono stage that isn’t insanely priced, given my system. No doubt, I will have to audition different items before purchase in order to make a reliable decision.
Thanks.

@rauliruegas 

Thanks for sharing the recommendation of the DSA phono III.  I think a few others had recommended that one as well, and I'm sure it's an excellent phono stage, but the first sentence of the review sums it up for me:  it is not the sonic equal of the CH Precision P1. . . 

Thanks. 

@dover

Well, I finally had some time to read that review (from the links that you posted previously) of various high end phono stages, written in Chinese.

I think much must’ve been lost in translation, and after reading his review of the Manley Steelhead, I’m not sure how much credence I would give to this reviewer: he specifically says that the Manley is great for large orchestral pieces, and mediocre for piano and chamber music. My experience has been the exact opposite?! Listening to piano music through the Manley Steelhead, I have a hard time not believing that the piano is in the room with me, and a concert pianist, who has listened to my system, agrees! Chamber music is equally exceptional with the combination of the Manley Steelhead and the Dohmann Helix One Mk2.  (Perhaps the difference can be attributed to the NOS tubes that I'm using, as opposed to the stock tubes included in the Steelhead, or perhaps to system synergies.)

I found the reviewer’s conclusion by comparing the different phono stages to different types of idealized Chinese women quite difficult to relate to, being an American myself, but it was nonetheless intriguing.
The reviewer seemed to strongly favor the FM223, but recognized that it didn’t have enough gain for many systems. He also preferred the Trinity Phono Stage, and the Audio Note M3, although his descriptions of various advantages and disadvantages of the various phono stages was poorly worded in translation.

Nevertheless, thanks for sharing that review!

@rauliruegas

Yes, while playing the test record the P1 gain wizard started at 0db, while playing the test LP, then jumped to 5db, then 10db, then 15db, and stopped at 15db. It didn’t proceed to test any higher gain setting. I’m still listening at 25db, but perhaps I need to revisit, and listen the 15db gain more critically. At 25db, I think it sounds great, but I really should do a better job researching the differences, and I will over the next 3-6 months, but right now I’m just enjoying listening my LP’s with new ears.

With the increased gain settings, of course I can listen with a higher speaker SPL, but I try to keep it within realistic sound levels, but being closer to the front, the sound is louder than sitting in the middle of the concert hall.  With the gain set at 0, I had the volume on the pre-amplifier on maximum, but with the gain set at 25, I have the volume set right in the middle, but the SPL is louder with the increased gain, and decreased volume setting on the pre-, but possibly only up to 70 db SPL instead of 55-60 db SPL.  I don't know if they're related, but it is my understanding that the gain was selected based on the internal resistance in the MC cartridge, and not necessarily based on the SNR.  

There was minimal brightness with the other tonearm, but I lowered that one about 0.5mm, and there is no brightness with either tonearm presently. (Eventually, I ended up lowering the first tonearm by about 3mm, after first lowering it about 1mm.) I’ve also been playing with the azimuth a bit, and I do have the AnalogMagik software that I can plug in, but right now I’m just using my ears.
Thanks.

So here's some follow up on the CH Precision P1 (run in current mode) gain settings from the Analog Magik software:  at 15db gain, the SNR = 21db; at 20db gain, the SNR = 23db; at 25db gain, the SNR = 20.5db.  

At 20db gain, sometimes the CLIP SIGNAL light would flicker green, but was mostly red.  Apparently, Analog Magik favors a 20db gain. . . I'll have to play some more with this.  

@rauliruegas 

So, I set up the AnalogMagik software today, and it did help me adjust the azimuth.  I was able to get the Lyra Atlas cartridge to have a -28.4 cross talk in both L and R channels.  Oddly, the VTA didn't work with the Lyra Atlas, as it read 6-8%, and the software says that if the reading is above 5%, it might not work for that cartridge.  (The Koetsu was down around 2%).  Another oddity was the gain selector on the AnalogMagik software:  it selected 15db also, but that's only because the CLIP SIGNAL light went from green to red on the USB Phono Plus computer interface machine when I selected 20db. . . I suppose that's the same reason that the CH P1 software also stopped at 15db.  Would I hear anything adversely by having the gain so high that the clip signal light turns red on that computer interface machine?
Thanks. 

@dover 

Thanks for sharing your insight into the potential weaknesses of the analog software.  

I think the record that CH Precision offers for gain testing is essentially a small version of the Analog Magik software.  The Analog Magik software works by taking the output cables from the phono stage, and plugging that into a USB Phono Plus phono pre-amp circuit (which itself could have some limitations), which is connected to a computer running the Analog Magik software, while the Analog Magik test LP's are playing. 

In a couple of months, once my ears are used to the sound from the current settings on the CH Precision P1, I'll experiment with the voltage settings. 

Thanks again. 

So, it's been about 6 months since I bought the CH Precision P1/X1, and it has been a very good experience.  I haven't listened to any digital since I've had the P1/X1 installed, which is a good sign.  

The main distinction with this phono stage is that it does make me feel like I am at the venue, as opposed to making me feel like the performers are in the room with me.  I attribute the latter experience, of feeling like performers are in the room, to the "bloom" that comes with the tube sound.  I'll have to admit that occasionally, I do miss that "bloom" distortion, but I do get that experience if I switch out my Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 SE pre-amplifier with the Lamm L2 pre-amplifier, which gives more of a tube sound.  But one day of the "bloom" is enough for me, and then I begin to tire of it, and want the natural sound of the Ypsilon / CH Precision P1 combination.  Overall, I the phono stage produces significant clarity and detail, without becoming sterile.  

An audiophile friend, who's been in vinyl for decades (and mostly enjoyed a SET set-up) visited recently and listened to the P1/X1.  He was impressed so much that he bought one for himself.  While I never tried the voltage mode on this phono stage, he did try it.  He said that the background sound / noise was worse via the voltage mode, as compared to the current mode.  He also said that the voltage mode had less defined imaging. 

Thanks to everyone who recommended looking into these current mode phono stages.  

@lewm @mijostyn 

I listened to the exact same recordings with the only difference being the Lamm L2 versus the Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 SE.  Running the signal through the Lamm L2 would cause my system to sound like the Manley Steelhead is back in as the phono stage, and cause a larger than life "bloom", which made me feel like the performers are in the room with me.  Running the signal of the same recording through the Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 SE related a sense of being in the audience of the recording studio / concert hall, which sounded more natural.  

@holmz 

I'm not the most knowledgeable about different turntables, so my experience is rather limited.  I've only had a Rega P3, Rega P8, and then made a (very large) jump to the Dohmann Helix One Mk2.  The audiophile friend who's been in vinyl for decades was very impressed with the Dohmann.  Coming from the Rega P8, it's a world of difference:  a vast improvement in every aspect:  detail and clarity most obviously improved to my ears.  

@lewm 

Yes, I'm probably not describing it very well, and we're probably talking about different aspects of the sound quality.  The "bloom" that I hear from the tubes is what makes me feel most like the instruments are in the room with me (which is not a real experience at all, but rather a very engaging experience).  The ambiance of feeling like I'm in the audience is not the same to me as the sense that the musicians are reverberating within my head, or "in the room" per se (the "bloom", as I'm describing it).  

@mijostyn 

:-)  Yes, I think we have quite similar musical tastes:  I am driving the Sound Lab 745 PX's with the Ypsilon Hyperions mostly, although I'm also using Lamm M2.2's.  Both do an excellent job to my ears, and both are hybrid amplifiers.  

Let me know how you like the Lyra Atlas SL, when it arrives.  I've personally moved on from the Koetsu Urushi Black, and replaced that cartridge with a My Sonic Lab Signature Platinum.  I'm not sure which I enjoy more between the Lyra Atlas and the MSL. . . both are excellent MC cartridges.  

@sksos 

Yes, I only looked at the MC cartridge input, since I didn't want to fiddle with a SUT presently, although that could change in the future.  I couldn't be happier with the CH Precision P1 / X1.  I'm sure that the CS Port phono stage is excellent as well, though.  I personally only have extensive relevant experience with the CH Precision P1/X1 and the Manley Steelhead, both of which are very good, so I can't comment on the qualities of the CS Port.  Enjoy!

@holmz

Thanks for sharing! Was the Dohmann HQ in Australia, or Bulgaria (as I just read a Fremer article about Dohmann, Schroder, and another sound equipment manufacturer joining together to form a conglomerate in Bulgaria.)

Yes, the alignment was tricky the first time, but I made all my mistakes on the Rega P8. I’ve only used the UNIDIN alignment on the SmarTractor, since I listen to entirely acoustic/classical/jazz music. Do you have any idea how the Baerwald or Loefgren alignment would affect the sound, if at all?

@holmz

Thanks for sharing your experience with Dohmann, and the details about cartridges that you discussed together! I’ll have to look into that WAM zenith disc, but I’ve been using the AnalogMagik software with decent results, and there is one aspect of that software, while not perfect, I’ve read can be used to help with zenith: apparently somehow the VTA measurement may actually do a better job at measuring zenith. The azimuth adjustment with the AnalogMagik software seems to do a good job, getting the crosstalk to match between channels, but there’s no way to meaure that SRA, so I’ll have to watch that video one weekend, and see if it’s worth it. Presently, I just use electonic level in my phone camera, and use that to verify that the tonearm is level (0 degrees) when playing.

I guess I should try the Baerwald alignment now that I’ve been listening to the UNIDIN for a few months. . .

I think that the turntable sounds phenomenal! One aspect that I think stands out is the balance of the presentation: the music is just balanced, so that the instruments are distinct, clear, and yet communicative and musical. There isn’t one range that overwhelms another.

I have two Schroder CB 11 tonearms installed, and I’ve used four cartridges thus far: the Lyra Atlas, Koetsu Urushi Black, My Sonic Lab Ultimate Platinum, and Lyra Etna Lambda SL. Presently, the latter two are installed.

If you’re ever visiting central Florida and want to listen, send me a message.

@mijostyn @sksos

Well, I’ll have to try the Loefgren B then!

Yes, there is a little post that you can lift to support the turntable while adjusting things. Once, I forgot to lower it after an adjustment, and left the post up, and the interference that I noted was remarkable, so that minus K really works!

@rauliruegas 

Thanks for sharing your experience with the alignments!

@mijostyn 

Thanks for offering to make a brass counterweight for the CB tonearm.  Is the counterweight simply a heavier cartridge mounting plate?  How would I know if I need one.  Presently, I just move the weight back and forth to adjust for VTF.  

Thanks. 

@lewm @rauliruegas 

Thanks for clarifying:  my counterweights are about equidistant from the pivot to the end of the tonearm, so I don't think anything extra is needed there.  I think perhaps @mijostyn meant a brass cartridge mounting plate as opposed to brass counterweight. . . but maybe I'm wrong.  

@mijostyn

As far as I can tell, the counter weights that I have work fine, but I haven’t tried anything else, so possibly brass counter weights would work better, or possibly worse. Is there a theoretical "best"?  (I, personally, would have no idea as to whether the brass would be better or worse than the "stock" counter weight, or how to calculate such measurements.)

Thanks.

@mijostyn 

Sounds interesting, but I would think that it would be simplest to use a lighter cartridge mouting plate and move the counter weight forward based on that as opposed to adding a heavier counter weight, which would then affect the effective mass of the tonearm in a more difficult way.  

The Schroder CB manual says that the effective mass of the 11 inch tonearm is 17g.  However, it doesn't say at which distance from the bearing housing that calculation is based upon, but I guess it doesn't matter that much.  So, getting a heavier counter weight would allow me to place it closer to the pivot point, but then that would lower the effective mass of the tonearm, which would affect the interaction with the compliance of the cartidge.  I don't see how a tonearm with a lower effective mass is neccessarily better than a tonearm with a slightly higher effective mass. 

@mijostyn 

Ah, so that makes more sense:  you're not looking to necessarily change the effective mass of the tonearm, just its tracking ability, by decreasing its inertia.  

What type of terst record do you use to measure the resonance frequency of your set up?  (I don't think that the AnalogMagik does a good job at determining resonance frequencties, as every reading I've gotten from that portion of the software is way off the charts, in which case it says that the result is worthless.)

@mijostyn 

Just to clarify:  the LP test record has a track with various frequencies, and when the frequency that is played causes the stylus warble, that's the resonance frequency?  (and each change in frequency is annoted on the LP?)

I personally only listen to acoustic/classical/jazz music, and the bass provided by the SoundLabs is just perfectly realistic:  just enough vibration from the tympani, double bass, etc.  (I also prefer a naturally aspirated 911 to a turbo!)

Yes, as you know I purchased the CH Precision P1/X1.  Just out of curiosity, it would be interesting to compare the CH Precision to the Channel D, but I don't know that it would be any better.  Once you get your new driveway and Channel D, let me know, and we'll have to find a way to compare them!  

@mijostyn @lewm 

So, it sounds like all three of us have SoundLab ESL's!  That's quite unusual.  Insofar as bass in SoundLabs is concerned, I would have to agree with @lewm .  I've had the Atma-Sphere MA-2's hooked up to my speakers, and while the sound is quite pure, and the mid-range is perfect, they do have difficulty producing bass in the speakers.  It seems that the SoundLabs perform very well without subwoofers with my amplifier.  But, it appears we are veering off topic. . . 

Unfortunately, we live in opposite poles of the country, as I'm in Florida, so I don't know that we'll be able to compare components easily.  

@mijostyn 

Does that track for resonance frequency on the Test LP inform you which frequency is being played; if not, how is it determined which frequency the stylus is vibrating to? 
Thanks. 

@mijostyn 

I'm in central Florida, between Tampa and Orlando, probably about 3-4 hours from Miami.  If you're interested in listening to the Dohmann, and the CH Precision P1, just PM me.  If you can bring your (soon to be new) Channel D along to A-B, that would be fun!  

Here's a reminder for the tone purists:

musical instruments (piano included) have complex harmonic structure: the fundamental has a frequency, but striking a note on a piano keyboard means as the sound resonates, many harmonics (integer multiples of the fundamental) also are generated. Each instrument has it’s own characteristic harmonic structure - what we can think of as timbre.

I think this can be summarized as "real music has distortions", albeit harmonic distortions, and, generally speaking, the louder the instrument is played, the more harmonic distortions are induced.  This musical principle may not carry over to modern electronic music.

@rauliruegas

Thanks for your recommendations. What would be the simplest and best way to add subwoofers to the system with ESL’s? I know one guy, Duke, involved tangentially with Atma-Sphere who made a group of four sub woofers, called the Swarm, or something like that. Is there something that I could just connect to the other pair of output posts on my monoblock amplifiers, or is it much more complicated than that?

Thanks.

@rauliruegas 

Any recommendations for a pair of subwoofers that would work with the Sound Lab ESL's?  Also, since I know nothing about setting up subwoofers:  is there a frequency dial that you can adjust for the precise crossover frequency?  Does that mean that you then could have two sets of speakers producing that frequency:  the ESL's and the subwoofers?  (In which case do you need to dial out that frequency from the full range speakers?)
Thanks. 

@lewm 

I’ve been reading a little about sub woofers, and many sites do say that adding a subwoofer can make a real difference  in other areas, such as sound stage, imaging, mid-range, etc.  I’m not really sure things can sound much better, but I think it’s at least worth a trial to see if it’s any better, or possibly worse. . .

As I mentioned, I've never used subwoofers before.  Based on limited reading, it seems that there are multiple approaches to connecting the subwoofers to a system.  (e.g.   All subwoofers have at least an RCA input for line level connection from your preamp or variable output on your amplifier. Do not use the record or tape output! These are fixed and you will have maximum bass at all times no matter what your main volume is set at! Some subwoofers have left and right inputs. If your preamp has left and right outputs, use two RCA cables for these. The subwoofer combines the channels inside. If your preamp has left and right outputs but there’s only one on the sub, use a Y combiner adapter. These can be had for $5 or so. Lastly, if you don’t have a subwoofer or preamp output on your amp or preamp, subwoofers such as the RELs we sell have a specific high level input which runs off your amplifier’s speaker binding posts. This cable simply piggybacks on your main speakers and does not draw any power from your amp. In this way, no matter what your system is, there’s a sub for you. )

Is there a "best" approach for monoblock amplifiers with two sets of binding posts?

@lewm

I suppose this means that your preferred approach would be to use both the XLR and RCA outputs from the pre-amplifier: one set for the monoblock amplifiers, and one set for the subwoofer.

If that’s the case, then it seems like my pre-amplifier would need a low pass and high pass cut off for the speakers to receive their proper signal and the subwoofers to receive their proper signal. Of course, another option would be to run the pre-amplifier signal through the subwoofer, which would be designed with low pass and high pass filters, and that signal would then pass to the amplifier to the ESL speakers. But I would think that this latter approach could degrade the signal going into the amplifier and ESL’s. It might be a no-win situation. . .

Hmmm…this subwoofer project is looking complicated:

it seems like an ideal approach would be an in line high pass filter after my pre-amplifier, but this would have to be an analog filter, correct?

(I can see myself reacting to a cello that sounds like it’s in one place for the higher notes, and another for the lower strings/notes…)

…or replace my pre-amplifier, which I really enjoy listening to, with a digital pre amplifier that has filters built into it…which I am averse to do…

@rauliruegas 

By complicated, I was referring to the act of installing an in-line digital high pass filter after the pre-amplifier, which would require an ADC and then a DAC before the amplfiier. . . and not sure how it would then affect the SQ, which is superb presently through the Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 SE pre-amplifier.  

@lewm

Is there such a thing as an active analog high pass filter, or are all analog high pass filters passive?
Thanks.