If the discussion is still open, where would a hybrid phono stage fit in the equation? The phono stage is prob my next move and I have SS pre running into a hybrid amp. Could one expect clean lows with tube warmth?
Phono/preamp/amp chain. One of them tube the others SS. Which one?
Perhaps any one would do if done right. What would be your preference, generally speaking? Let's assume MC cartridge. This move could be permanent or could be the first step on the way to full tube system. I would probably choose the phono.
58 responses Add your response
When I got into "high end", there were two high end salons within driving distance. I spent so much time in these places that my wife swore I was seeing another woman; "There is no way you're going to come home late every evening listening to some dumb stereo equipment", she stated when I walked in the door. My purpose was twofold; one was to verify the validity of the "Stereophile" rating system, the other was of course to hear equipment I could not afford. I discovered the "Stereophile" ratings were quite valid. Now there is no way I can audition expensive equipment; I have to rely on you and what I read. Upon examination, I see my rig has a component no one else has "A computer interface"; it does whatever it does, and has an adjustment for level in. SS phono, and computer interface do 100% of nothing in regard to improvement or detraction of audio. High end computer interfaces were not available at that time; I rebuilt, using expensive capacitors to such an extent that I had to design another cabinet, that one wasn't big enough. It would cost in the vicinity of 3K for an unknown that I can not audition; therefore it's not in the cards anytime soon. Enjoy the music. |
Theo, I've been doing some serious thinking about what you said in regard to the phono stage, and it seems 3K, or in that price range, is what a tube phono which would be similar to yours might cost. There is no free lunch in "High End audio", and quite often, anything cheaper turns out to be a waste of money. Could you comment on good tube phono stages? Enjoy the music. |
I'm in similar situation. I have a great TT, arm, & MC. Feeds into Mc SS preamp then to Atlas eclipse hybrid amp. Love the tube richness & quietness of the SS preamp/MC phono section. I am leaning toward SS phono preamp for total silence on cartridge output and tube line stage for the sound I prefer further enhanced by my amp. So IMO the absolute silence of a high end SS phono stage trumps the induced bloom of a tubed phono stage, even though I love the tube sound. |
Huge number of choices and vastly different experiences - you will need to test/listen and find the best synergy. Regarding Shindo - I don't think you will get a better sound than a Shindo preamp MM phono stage with an Auditorium Hommage SUT - at least that Is my experience with highly efficient WLM speakers in a smallish room. Regarding Rogue phono/preamps - great products. A friend of mine borrowed my realistically priced Tavish design phono stage and I could barely twist it out of his hands, he liked it so much. Look it up - they have a 30 day money back guarantee. I have no ties with this two man tiny company only a very happy customer. |
Different combinations were trialled. At present my ears are very satisfied & comfortable with the music coming out of the B&W 803D2. The cartridge: Ortofon MC - Quintet Black The Phono preamp: SS Bryston BP 1.5 The Preamp: SS Bryston BP26 The Ams: Tube Rogue Audio monoblocks Bloom - richness & details. Joseph |
| Post removed |
Theo, although I have SS Phono, I have tube pre and amplifier, plus "Grado" is a relatively warm cartridge. I believe my end result is the same as yours, because that's the way I would describe it. What I'm hearing in regard to phono pre, is that you could buy a lesser cartridge, and get the end result of a step up in cartridges; by having a boss phono; is this true? |
I have gone from using a SS phono (JC3+ and Audia Flight) to tube (Allnic H-3000 and HA-3000) and it has made a huge difference in the presentation of the music. Even my mother (since moms are frequently used as a lowest common denominator) mentioned that it sounded like Ella and Louis were in the room with us when she heard the tube phono in my system for the first time. For comparison, the Audia Flight only got a "that sounds nice." I have gone all tube in my system and, if you do eventually go in that direction, be prepared to have sufficient ventilation because having that many bulbs working at once can put out some serious heat. |
The cartridge is the most important piece of equipment in your entire rig, it should not be selected the same way you might select a preamp, by buying the "best". No, a cartridge is a very personal thing, that can only be selected after you have tried many cartridges. It should be selected based on the elements of the music that you enjoy most. Right now, I'm not talking about some fantasy hypothetical thing, but a reality with limitations in regard to expense. I think you should first identify the "house sound" of the cartridge family, and then go from there. Corey Greenberg was my favorite reviewer at "Stereophile", and I have a number of items he reviewed and recommended that I'm using and quite satisfied with. If Corey said it was OK, and I needed it, I bought it. That worked out just fine, until we got to "cartridges"; he had ever so much praise for the "Blue Point Special", which I purchased, only to discover that it was not the cartridge for me; he liked rock, and I like jazz, especially jazz vocal, and that made all the difference in the world in regard to cartridges. That made me aware of the fact how personal a cartridge is; just because everybody says it's the best, it may not be the best for you Enjoy the music. |
Orpheus10, of course the sound can be improved unless you already have absolutely top of the line phono stage, then it can only be made slightly different not better. Some here believe that only tube phono can achieve the highest level. Grado has a warm full emotional sound, I use his headphones though not cartridges because I believe that would be too much of a good thing with my table/arm and speakers. I use Goldring 1042 MM which has more of a balanced neutrality but not at all cold sounding. For my system Lyra Delos seems to be a logical upgrade. |
Since every one on this thread seems to know a lot about phono preamps, instead of starting a new thread, I'll direct my question to you guys. I have a solid state phono that I use for my high out put "Grado". Not long ago, I went from Platinum to Sonata, and I enjoyed it immensely; I detected every minute difference in the upgrade. My solid state phono is nonexistent; I mean no noise, no nothing. Is a phono amp supposed to improve the sound? It's as if my phono is not even there, I just hear the cartridge; is that good or bad? Enjoy the music. |
You could kill two birds with one stone as they say, and buy one full function tube preamp. I just saw a VAC Renaissance mk II with MC/MM phono stage just sold recently. Maybe another full function VAC will come along, or a CAT, or maybe an Atma-Sphere or Doshi Alaap. Many very good full function preamps out there. |
Well, it does appear that tube phono would be overall the best first move. In my particular case, I would go with only top level phono - Lamm, VAC, Atma-Sphere, CAT, maybe Herron etc. Worth the wait and patience. Then I would probably upgrade my integrated to one of the better integrateds, and then - separates, tube preamp and tube/ss/hybrid amp depending on speakers and the entire system. So, the path seems quite clear. |
Late to the party ... tube power amp (Prima Luna PL 5) ... SS preamp (Musical Fidelity CD PRE 24) ... SS phono preamp (Schitt Mani) ... Opera Platea Floorstanders. I sometimes swap in Ascend Acoustic Sierra One monitors. For the longest time I used EL 34s and 6CA7s, which were great for CDs, but when I added a turntable I found myself wanting more bass, possibly oomph, and switched to KT90s. The turntable set-up is a Stanton ST 150 paired with a Sumiko Pearl cartridge. My only gripe with the Stanton and it is an 'in my head' gripe is that the turntable's built in preamp hums at high volumes, which are way higher volumes than any level I would normally play at. I get just enough tube sound in this set-up. Rich |
Once again Ralph makes a good point. I have Zu speakers that love tubes. They are fast and immediate for sure, and run tubes all the way through. BAT-Zesto-Mac MC 60s and believe it or not there isn't a euphonic excess to be had. So IMO the speakers determine how much tubiness will come through to a large extent. |
Just trying to understand how low level detail on tube better vs. transistor. I haven't heard 70+db gain for LOMC all tube phonostages that don't have typical hissing noise not substantial via speakers, but quite audible via headphones.The noise floor does not describe the amount of low level detail. It turns out that the human ear has an exception to the masking rule in that it can hear into a noise floor of hiss. The jury is out on about how much- some say 20db but 10db seems no argument. If you listen to a tube phono section as opposed to a solid state unit of similar gain this difference in low level detail will be audible. If you use an SUT then getting another 10-12db on the noise floor is easy. |
Stingreen, we are not talking about simplicity or orthodox purist approach where it is either all tube with possible hybrid amp or all solid state preferably from the same manufacturer. With cables, at the high level and above, I would agree, unless someone wants to experiment with thousands of combinations. Not me. |
Personally, I wouldn’t do that.....as a matter of fact, if all your components are from the same manufacturer, you would have an even better chance of success. I don’t mix anything...cables, etc. Any benefit from trying to deal with problems by gettling something with an opposite defiency means you don’t have the benefits of either. Modern components can be found with excellences if they use s/s or tubes. |
Just trying to understand how low level detail on tube better vs. transistor. I haven't heard 70+db gain for LOMC all tube phonostages that don't have typical hissing noise not substantial via speakers, but quite audible via headphones. |
Whart, agree about the symbiosis. Yes, interested in general views and considerations. Atmasphere's opinion has a lot of weight but so far he is the only one to express this particular view, though before initiating this thread intuitively I thought that tube phono should come first and then the rest if needed. |
Inna- to me, the amp-speaker relationship is symbiotic. So, choice of speaker may push you one way or the other with respect to the choice of amp. And, sometimes, the stereotypes about "tube" and "ss" sound aren’t always the result in practice. The Lamm line stage- that two chassis Reference- is a solid state audio path with a tube power supply. But, if you had to characterize its sound, you’d say "tube." If you are just getting people’s general views, I can only speak to what I own, pretty much still as described in my profile here (which I haven’t updated in a while- a few subs and tweaks have been added since). |
If using a LOMC cartridge, my preference would be for an all-tube phono and line stage and a solid state amp, if the situation somehow was able to demand that one be solid state and the other tube. I would not go with a solid state phono section. The thing that transistors don't do well is low level detail; IMO/IME you are better off with an SUT than you are a transistor input (better still if your all-tube phono section does not need the SUT all on its own). If you are going to loose detail, its best done by the power amplifier since if you loose it upstream, even the best amp and speaker won't make up for that loss. |
Yes, 125 pounds is just too much to move around all by yourself, I wouldn't even try. I agree it would be about double the cost of your VAC if we are talking new. If used, that would vary. Also,some equipment is almost impossible to find used. I would think that building separates would be following the simplicity principle, but you could look at it the other way around, sure. |
I am running Reference 3A Grand Veena speakers, the original version with Murata supertweeter. Still can’t be beat for the $$$. I can afford to spend more on speakers, I just can’t seem to figure out why. As for nothing beats great separates, you may be right, but you’ll have to pay a hefty price. Again, integrated amps are great bang for the buck. My VAC integrated lists for $14K, and easily beat the $15K of separates that I had prior to it. I’m sure I could top the VAC, but I’d probably be looking at a preamp and amp that list for at least $25-30K combined to do it. Simplicity done right is hard to beat. Yes, I went bigger and bigger with amps and speakers as I got older, to a point. The tipping point for me was about 7-8 years ago when I tore a bicep tendon moving a 125 pound amp around. Now I am looking to keep amps and speakers under 100 pounds, even lighter if possible. |
Jmcgrogan2, yes I remember that you got VAC integtated. What speakers do you use with it? As for me, the older I get, still not too old, the more I want big amps, be it Rowland or Lamm or something else. But yeah, some modern integrateds, including your VAC, are enough for many set-ups. Still, nothing will beat great separates. The cost? Well, $4.5k for Rowland 8T and probably the same for Rowland or VAC preamp. Or, about $5k for Lamm tube preamp plus $6.5k for older hybrid monoblocks. I doubt that it would make sense to mix VAC and Lamm, but you never know. If they are electrically compatible. But I am intrigued by Ypsilon amps that we were talking about in another thread. Too damn expensive, even the integrated. |
I will also consider VAC all tube integrated.@inna , I'm running a VAC 160iSE right now, very nice. I would think that a VAC preamp would work well with the 8T. The Model 8's 36K input impedance should be plenty high enough for the VAC preamp. I have owned a couple of VAC preamps, and I owned a Model 2 and Model 6 monoblocks, though not all at the same time. I am a big fan of Kevin Hayes work, VAC is some of the best gear out there. As for JRDG, I felt that the Model 2/6/8/9 amps were his best work. Earlier designs were a bit too dark for me, latter amps were a bit too sterile. IMHO, JRDG hit the sweet spot with the Model 2/6/8/9 amps. I've lusted after that big Model 8 for many years now. Sadly, now that it has dropped down into my price range, I no longer desire to struggle with mammoth amplifiers anymore. I'm getting too old for this sh!t. Haha! Besides, I'm very happy with the 160i SE. |
You people are killing me, I would have to get preamp and amp at the same time and deal with the phono later. Better start saving on lunches and other things. I will also consider VAC all tube integrated, I suspect that something like Rogue Pharaoh hybrid would not be enough but maybe I'll try it as well. Ideally, I would probably go with Lamm tube preamp and hybrid monos - a lot of money. I only think of used equipment except cartridges. How would VAC preamp work with Rowland 8T? Anyone tried? |
Inna, or anyone else who has auditioned a number of phono amps; could you explain the improvement over whatever cartridge is on the input. As I explained, I get out, what I put in; others have implied they get out something better than what the cartridge puts out, and well they should with the price of some phono amps. My question is simply, what improvements do you get over what the cartridge puts out? Enjoy the music. |
It appears that everyone would start with tube preamp. My current system is more or less balanced, and whenever I am ready to upgrade anything, except perhaps the cartridge, this in fact would be the beginning of an entire system overhaul or totally new system. In a situation when I have outboard phono stage but integrated amp with no pre out/ power amp in, getting tube preamp would mean getting some power amp too. I like to wait and upgrade in big steps. But I am going to keep my Nottingham Spacedeck/Spacearm and Nakamichi 682ZX deck for a very long time, the rest can go. |
Tube high gain devices are noisy by nature so phonostage is great either solid state or hybrid such as AudioResearch PH3 or similar. I join anyone who likes tube preamps. To my tastes and demands of higher volumes tube amp must be BIG, but when outside is over 100f, you try to save every cool square inch of your dwelling. |