The only non-PPT enhanced system I've ever heard that came close to the
kind of realism we are getting was Randy Cooley's room (Optimal
Enchantment) at one of the audio shows. If the best sound you have ever heard was at an audio show, then I don't see how I can take any of your personal listening experiences seriously. There is one thing listening rooms at trade shows all have in common. They sound bad. That is not at all surprising given what it takes to acoustically treat a room for what can be considered great sound. |
@glupson: Why poor Randy? Sounds like he had a great system!!
Also, kudos to oregonpapa for having something similar. His success takes nothing away from Randy's system. It is not a zero sum game. Sounds like Randy's system gave oregonpapa a glimpse of what is possible and therefore what he should strive for.
It would be my wish that we ALL had amazing systems that have the "time machine" quality that takes us back to the instant of the original performance/recording. I think that is what most of us want, and we should all be working, collectively, to make that possible. |
If you truly believe that @docknow, then this thread is a waste. If you think these things are the path to a "live" performance, then you will never get there.
|
audio2design ...
- "If the best sound you have ever heard was at an audio show, then I don't see how I can take any of your personal listening experiences seriously. There is one thing listening rooms at trade shows all have in common. They sound bad. That is not at all surprising given what it takes to acoustically treat a room for what can be considered great sound."
"Most" rooms at audio shows sound bad. This we are in agreement with. However, Randy Cooley's room was exceptional. Well, at least what he was getting out of the demo system was exceptional. And here you are again, passing judgment on something you haven't personally experienced. You didn't hear Randy's demo system, and you certainly have never heard my system either. If you're ever in my area ... Southern Californa, Ventura County specifically, you're welcome to come over for a listening session. The only requirement is that you don a triple layer of adult diapers prior to the session beginning. I don't like stains on the ceiling and carpet. Frank |
docknow ...
- "Sounds like Randy's system gave oregonpapa a glimpse of what is possible and therefore what he should strive for."
That's exactly it. When I heard Randy's demo, it had the most three dimensional, and most realistic presentation I had ever heard from an audio system. A replication of that sound has been my goal ever since. With all of the PPT products in the system, especially The Gate, my system is finally there ... and well beyond. Frank |
@audiodesign: I do truly "think" that. BTW, in my way of thinking, "believes" are for church.
With that clarification ... it is a big goal, but I have found that big goals help facilitate small successes towards the goal and keep one from getting off track. It is clear to me that such a goal is still a long ways away. I have made thousands of improvements to my succession of systems over the last 45 years, with each one having a very audible improvement and this trend has not diminished. If we were getting close to the goal of an audio "time machine", I would posit that each step closer would get smaller and more difficult. Since that has not been my experience, I have come to wonder if the distance to my goal is still quite large.
Either way, there are going to be many paths that might take us to that goal and our collective wisdom and experience will get us there faster. That is part of the value of communication and sharing here.
PS-this thread was not a waste for me. I learn something and improve my knowledge and brain from nearly everything I do. |
docknow, "@glupson: Why poor Randy? Sounds like he had a great system!!" I thought so, too, but then it seems that oregonpapa's modest thing is better than Randy's. Randy tried, just to be outdone. |
millercarbon ...
The only non-PPT enhanced system I've ever heard that came close to the kind of realism we are getting was Randy Cooley's room (Optimal Enchantment) at one of the audio shows. Randy always plays tasteful music during his demonstrations. He was using all of the ARC reference stuff, the big Basis turntable, and Vandersteen's best speakers. The retail value of Randy's demo system had to be several hundreds of thousands of dollars. And yet, my modest Legacy Signature IIIs are pumping out sound like that. Even better actually.
Frank That must have been some setup. Imagine if he had even just a little of the good stuff in there! That's what gets me. When you get up into the stratosphere level of funding I would sure hope the sound is to die for. When in reality more often than not it is merely impressive. People who haven't heard simply do not know. That is why I am so keen on getting people to come hear, and then also to post comments. All anyone has to do is read my system comments. That's not me. That's other audiophiles. When you read the comments from a guy who is into digital and looks askance at analog and yet is saying things like While I was there I was wishing for a more analytical sound but when I got home I was really missing that sound he was getting, you and I know what he's talking about. But no one else does. Sad to say, utter complete lack of knowledge never stops them spewing their unfounded opinions, more often than not as fact. And here you are again, passing judgment on something you haven't personally experienced. You didn't hear Randy's demo system, and you certainly have never heard my system either.
If you're ever in my area ... Southern Californa, Ventura County specifically, you're welcome to come over for a listening session. The only requirement is that you don a triple layer of adult diapers prior to the session beginning. I don't like stains on the ceiling and carpet.
Frank Frank, you are too kind. He is the one, probably just about the only one, I would have to disinvite. |
docknow, "I have made thousands of improvements to my succession of systems over the last 45 years, with each one having a very audible improvement and this trend has not diminished." If it were only 1000, it would be 22+ improvements a year. That is an improvement every 16 days for 45 years without a vacation ever. In case you ever left your home for a few days and "thousands" really means "thousands" amd not merely a "thousand", you may be talking about an improvement every few days. Let’s say every 3-4 days. Assuming that you cannot be correct every time over 45 years and that some attempts did not result in an improvement, you might have tried to fiddle with your system for 45 years every day when you were at home. I am truly curious. What kind of career do you have to allow you such a luxury of time for tweaking your audio system? I doubt that Prince Charles would be able to pull that off. |
@glupson: I was inviting a potential criticism by being so quantitative. I should have just said countless. BTW, I made 3 rather large improvements to my system yesterday (cable routing, room treatments and adding an LPS).
I fear you have been distracted by the number and missed my point in that part of my response. Oh Well !!
As you may have guessed, I am royalty ...
|
|
docknow,
Prince Charles is green with envy. |
docknow,
Of course, people will start asking to name some of the improvements. Once you reach 5689, Audiogon server's fuse may decide to quit.
|
But likely not of Papa's audio system .... Relatively average speakers in I would expect a substandard acoustic space. Sorry papa, I would tell you exactly what I think and you probably won't like what I say. Now Mijoystyn, you can say I was harsh.
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There is a method to break down the contents of the mat and blend into another binding agent and directly apply those benefits to many parts of my system and elsewhere in my room. Tom |
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Slice of mat and wire of fuse
Liquid cables juice we use
Diamond needle on tone arm sing
Scratching and popping an audiophile dream
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
With apologies to Willie |
Doubley Dumb Dilbert Dudes. Right from the hand of Shakespeare. Only he could have written such a description. Tom |
You speak an infinite deal of nothing-
The Merchant of Venice |
millercarbon ... - "Frank, you are too kind. He is the one, probably just about the only one, I would have to disinvite."
Not me. I’d love to have the guy over for a listening session. Within the first few notes, he would have a look on his face as though he had just eaten a crap sandwich. No doubt he would try to save face by finding fault with the system, but once the session was over, he would leave and never be able to forget what he had heard. And the best part? He would try to match the sound somehow but would fail miserably, and would be chasing it for the rest of his arrogant little life. :-) By the way Miller, I still laugh every time I think about your late-night phone call when your greeting was ... "Frank ... I had to call someone who understands!" That was truly a classic. Frank. |
If I ever decide to teach again on the side, I will certainly be using this thread as a lesson in perceptual bias and how strong an influence that can be on someone such that they can convince themselves that older and rather average speakers in an absolutely horrible acoustic space, can be the "best sound ever". Those token Hallographs are not going to fix all the acoustics issues that include, but are not limited to:
- No front wall reflection control
- No first reflection control
- The reflections off the glass table
- The reflective equipment between the speakers
- The lack of symmetry due to the windows on one side, and the wall/records on the other side
- The blinds (that will rattle)
- The reflective pictures on the wall
- The reflective (curio/china cabinet?) in one corner behind the speakers, but not the other
I am quite serious when I say that if you sold all that fancy (an expensive) AR gear and bought a half decent receiver and invested 1/10 of the money on the sale of the AR gear and put it into effective acoustics, the overall sound would be better, if not a lot better. Oh it would not be perfect, but you are so far from that now, that anything would be an improvement.
And no, I don't need to "hear" this system to know what a mess it will be. 8+ wrongs do not make a right.
You could also call this perhaps harsh Mijostyn, but obviously provoked.
|
- No front wall reflection control
- No first reflection control
- The reflections off the glass table
- The reflective equipment between the speakers
- The lack of symmetry due to the windows on one side, and the wall/records on the other side
- The blinds (that will rattle)
- The reflective pictures on the wall
- The reflective (curio/china cabinet?) in one corner behind the speakers, but not the other You description to bash the experience of oregonpapa is not fair... Try to apply this analysis to the room picture in this article.... This is the room of Floyd Toole, one of the great acoustician in the world... Almost all you just said apply to HIS room pictured here... Wrote to him that he is an idiot in acoustic.... Try that with him.... 😁 https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/room-reflections-human-adaptation I dont say that Toole is right about the positive use of reflections i only say that Acoustic of room is NOT what you think it is.... Then before judging other pick a mirror and think about reflections in another way.... i am sorry to be harsh.....😊 |
As usual Mahgister, your replies are essentially misguided, the effect of too much confidence, and too little knowledge perhaps or are you just rushing to your keyboard without taking the time to think things through? Read more, think more, and type a whole lot less! I will point out a few paragraphs which you conveniently glossed over or did not understand. I will also note the size of Dr. Toole's listening space (which was a long time ago), and how that compares to oregonpapa's and the closeness and high reflectance of those surfaces. The dramatic change happened when the precedence effect broke down and two images were perceived – that was a problem. The strength and spectrum of any reflection depends on the strength and spectrum of the sound radiated in that specific direction by the loudspeaker, and by the frequency-dependent acoustical performance of the reflecting surface. If you look at (a) in the preceding diagram, the adjacent side-wall reflection is the sound radiated at close to 90° off axis from the loudspeaker. This is much attenuated in most loudspeakers, and is motivation to angle the loudspeakers to face the listener. the very neutral, essentially omnidirectional, Mirage M1s
You figure out why this is important. Because of the designed-in irregular scattering surfaces, the heavy carpet and thick felt underlay brought the reverberation time down to under 0.5s so the room sounded much less “live” than one would think.
Figure 7.1 above shows the first reflections in a stereo setup, and in an LCR arrangement. Anyone claiming that a phantom center image is superior to a real center loudspeaker has some persuading to do. The phantom-image situation is significantly muddled, and most listening situations are not perfectly symmetrical. As we will see later, eliminating all of the reflections does not solve the fundamental problem with the phantom center; in fact it makes it worse.
That last one is for MC and others ignorantly claiming that a center channel is not needed for movies. As an illustration of how much loudspeaker technology has improved over the years, these data on the JBL Pro M2 indicate that whatever one’s opinions of loudspeaker/room interactions were in the era of the UREI, they cannot be the same in the era of the M2, and any similarly “neutral” loudspeaker. And this is specifically w.r.t. the Legacy III’s which were somewhat average at the time and have significant issues with the integration of the two different technology tweeters, and would not be, as Dr. Toole mentions above"neutral". They have a significant anomaly where the two speakers crossover. |
Don't let this mad devil get to you mahgister, he is arrogant beyond belief and incapable of any thought other than how to insult everyone else while aggrandizing himself.
He misses everything we love about music. Notice he never, ever talks in terms of how things sound to him. Anyone like you, me, Frank, anyone good at listening, that is how we talk. We talk about how it sounds. How it sounds in our rooms right here in the real world. All the arrogant clown ever talks about is how it can't because, reasons.
Listeners like us, we learn what we can, buy what we can, build what we can't buy. But mostly we try and listen, throw out what doesn't work and keep whatever does. Regardless of what it was or who said it or how big a degree they have. If it sounds better we do it. If it doesn't we don't.
Here we are enthusiastically engaged in the pursuit of better sound, and we have the temerity to judge our success at getting better sound by.... enjoying the better sound we get. Sound his tin ear can't even hear. No wonder the poor man is seething in rage all the time. So relax. Let him go. Not worth your time. Certainly not worth mine.
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Golly, that is an awful room, awful loudspeakers too. It seems that Dr Toole has a lot of knowledge but terrible ears or maybe he does not earn enough in his profession to be able to afford the good stuff and I am not saying that in a bad way, it is true for a lot of us. We do the best that we can.
We should all be proud of our systems but I do not understand this constantly "tweaking" business. I will go years, sometimes a decade before doing anything and When I make a change it is always a big one like new speakers or amps. I kept the same turntable for 40 years although I had some others over the past decade. My version of a tweak is a new cartridge. I've had the same room for 28 years and it was treated acoustically from the start and has not needed any additions. Now with new speakers coming and new more dense carpet things will change a little so I will have to take new measurements and maybe adjust crossovers. I suppose making digital changes is a sort of tweak but I can see exactly what is going on. There are no illusions here. I am programming the system to do exactly what I want.
I hate to say this but, I think people with less elaborate systems are constantly looking for inexpensive ways to improve their systems and fall pray to marketing hype. That does not explain the Hallograms at $1600. I suppose that is cheap relative to an $85,000 amplifier.
@audio2design, now you are not only harsh but politically inappropriate.
You don't need to beat people up because the have no idea what they are doing. Just notice the group of comedians lined up against you.
It is the old science vs religion conundrum. So, keep up the good fight. It is a lot of fun watching them squiggle around the facts. They can not get their heads around the fact that some of us do not have to hear an item personally to know it does not work. Guys, it is just knowledge and experience. It is very easy to take advantage of those that have neither. |
I missed millercarbon's last comment. We need to get you a soap box millercarbon. Better yet a TV show! You would make a great preacher. That says a lot coming from a atheist:-) |
@glupson, Hey, it is time for you to make a comment! |
Einstein, why don’t you take a quick look over in the Crazy, crazy, crazy thread under Audio Clubs. You will find that the predominant theme there is that no one even wants to have a drink with you.
Audio2design is a pleasure to read compared to you. I hope you get that. I wonder what other audio site kicked you out that you stumbled here.
Color me not a fan.
Search my posts over the last 19 years, you will not find me having said a negative thing about anyone before.
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oregonpapa-
millercarbon ...
- "Frank, you are too kind. He is the one, probably just about the only one, I would have to disinvite."
Not
me. I’d love to have the guy over for a listening session. Within the
first few notes, he would have a look on his face as though he had just
eaten a crap sandwich. No doubt he would try to save face by finding
fault with the system, but once the session was over, he would leave and
never be able to forget what he had heard. And the best part? He would
try to match the sound somehow but would fail miserably, and would be
chasing it for the rest of his arrogant little life. :-)
By the
way Miller, I still laugh every time I think about your late-night phone
call when your greeting was ... "Frank ... I had to call someone who
understands!" That was truly a classic.
Frank. That's the problem in a nutshell. All these different things we try, everything from components and cables to HFT and PPS, they all improve the sound in ways that we talk about in very similar terms. Imaging, detail, dynamics, extension, etc. But they also improve the sound in ways that are also somehow different. The Gate and Total Contact are very similar in character to each other, and sort of similar yet very different than the improvement brought by anything else. There really is no explaining why. We can hardly even describe how. But we sure do know it when we hear it! It's that spine-tingling sensation of a reality. Lately I've been using Townshend Pods and they do get me some of that. But there again the nature of the change is somehow subtly different. The beauty of it is they all go together. Nothing clashes, everything adds. Nor do we have the problem so many others talk about, where they think the system got better but then complain how certain records all their faults are revealed and they are now hard to listen to. Every single one of my records sounds so much better than before it is hard to believe. I know it. You know it. I know that you know it. Pity some of these so-called audiophiles can't get that. Question is, the one in particular, are you really so sure he would even know it when he hears it? Would he even hear it? I don't think so.
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Sounds like the moral of the story is people should spend thousands of dollars on things that nobody can explain and just have at it because some guys on the internet hear things.
At least people can buy into conspiracy theories for free.
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Ahhh! So THIS is where the Dunning Kruger participants hang out?! |
mapman... the moral of the story is people should spend thousands of dollars on things that nobody can explain ... Not at all. Everyone is free to spend their money however they please and - given that this is a hobbyist’s audio forum - should be free to do so without enduring insult and attacks from others. Of course, some seem to come here specifically so that they can insult and attack. Here’s my take on the PPS eMat: 1. I’ve never tried it 2. I have no plans to try it anytime soon 3. I refrain from criticizing those who have experimented with the product. It’s so simple! |
millercarbon ... - "I know it. You know it. I know that you know it. Pity some of these so-called audiophiles can’t get that. Question is, the one in particular, are you really so sure he would even know it when he hears it? Would he even hear it? I don’t think so."
Good point, Miller. Most likely, he wouldn’t know what to listen FOR. Or, his preconceived notions would skew his brain into convincing him that the sound is mediocre. (it’s that glass tabletop, don’t-cha know). audio2design ... No front wall reflection control
- No first reflection control
- The reflections off the glass table
- The reflective equipment between the speakers
- The lack of symmetry due to the windows on one side, and the wall/records on the other side
- The blinds (that will rattle)
- The reflective pictures on the wall
- The reflective (curio/china cabinet?) in one corner behind the speakers, but not the other And again, you assume way too much. 1. Reflections are taken care of by the Hallographs. There are the two you can see in the corners behind the speakers, but there are two more behind the listening position. I can assure you that they are very effective. In addition to the Hollographs, there are Tube Traps behind the listening position. Then, there are the SR HFTs placed around the room. Oh, and the glass tabletop is removed for listening sessions. 2. All reflective glass surfaces like the pictures you mentioned have their own tweak in place, which I will not mention at this point. (secret stuff ya know) Mahgister would approve :-) . Same with the "rattling" blinds and the curio cabinet. 3. Those older speakers you mention are like most Legacy speakers. They perform way beyond their price point. And the best part? They have continued to keep up with every improvement I’ve made to the system. I don’t know what Legacy did in building these speakers, but when it comes to the Signature IIIs and the older Legacy Focus speakers, they got the darned things right. Imagine a pair of Harbeth 40.2s but with better bass and better highs. That is what these Legacys are doing at this point. Tonally amazing like the Harbeths too. 4. You mentioned the need for a center channel in a theater system. I used to work for an ultra-high-end audio/video dealer. When I say "ultra-high-end," that is exactly what it was. Two elaborate separate rooms, one for video, one for audio. The video room used all Goldmund electronics and the big Goldmund speakers. The performance was spectacular. Guess what? There was NO center channel. We found that it messed up the natural imaging presentation. We used to talk customers out of buying a center channel speaker. Not only did they save money, but they got better sound. And in the audio room ... we used the best electronics and speakers money could buy. Compared with what I’m getting at home using all of the PPT tweaks, and everything else I’ve done, yes ... the soundstage was bigger, it played louder, and was impressive in all ways. HOWEVER, when it comes to intimate realism, in a much smaller room, I’ve got it beat hands down. 5. - " And no, I don’t need to "hear" this system to know what a mess it will be."
Now right there is the problem with you and your ilk. Your type does a lot of assuming. What magic powers do you possess that allows you to know what something sounds like without hearing it? Do you have X-Men superpowers? I suppose you have super strength and X-ray vision as well? Nah ... super arrogance is your forte. 6. The invitation still stands. Frank |
Here is my take on the eMat. I have a fairly nice system, have what I consider decent but not extravagant anything, nice enough speaker cables, interconnects and aftermarket power cables. I can hear changes when made to my system easy enough. Other than that just mentioned I have never purchased one tweak. I happened to obtain a few eMats free from a friend. So no skin in the game one way or the other.
I put the mats in the cover of my electric panel and on or under all major components (not speakers). I also made one other minor change to my system I cannot remember. I have to say that at the time I noticed a nice identifiable improvement in the sound of my system. But because of the other non eMat related change there is always that question in my mind how much improvement there would have been without it. Personally I attribute it all to the eMats but truly have no idea how. |
@cleeds
I don’t disagree people are free to do what they want but that has nothing to do with my comment. Some things they may choose to do are better than others. I welcome any and all responses that take the discussion in a useful direction. Meanwhile I had my say. |
I think people with less elaborate systems are
constantly looking for inexpensive ways to improve their systems and
fall pray to marketing hype. It is
the old science vs religion conundrum. So, keep up the good fight. It
is a lot of fun watching them squiggle around the facts. They can not
get their heads around the fact that some of us do not have to hear an
item personally to know it does not work. Guys, it is just knowledge and
experience. It is very easy to take advantage of those that have
neither.
Well said, @mijostyn |
And this is specifically w.r.t. the Legacy III’s which were somewhat average at the time and have significant issues with the integration of the two different technology tweeters, and would not be, as Dr. Toole mentions above"neutral". They have a significant anomaly where the two speakers crossover.
You drown the cat of your past post all about reflections, willing to bash oregonpapa... Now you switch about the particular speakers choice of Toole....To excuse his defence of reflections use....Even if the room of oregonpapa is smaller then it is there more easy to use reflections than in the Toole room ... Forgetting about his particular view of the positive use of reflections especially in small room like Oregonpapa one...You said that Oregonpapa has too much reflections and now his speakers are trash and this is the main point.... All reflections are good in Toole room not on oregonpapa room.... And now the remark of Toole made sense only with this Mirage speakers.... All others kind of speakers of the past decades, dixit audiodesign distorting Toole article, are trash.... If we analyse after reading the post of Quixote the post of Sancho Panza(mijostyn) the cat ressuscitate:
Golly, that is an awful room, awful loudspeakers too. It seems that Dr Toole has a lot of knowledge but terrible ears or maybe he does not earn enough in his profession to be able to afford the good stuff and I am not saying that in a bad way, it is true for a lot of us. We do the best that we can.
Except audiodesign, all people, turntables owners, tweakers, Even Toole, are not on the road and lack knoweledge... All that from these 2 who speak ill against all these people, turntables owners, tweakers, pretending science...It is almost all audiophiles... 😊 No acoustician by the way are on the same page exactly about small room treatment.... It is an art when applied not a pure science.... |
By the way there exist too much hate in the forum....
Arguments ONLY have value...
I hate nobody here and speak to ANYONE....
But some go on hating each other for years...
Only arguments make sense.... Nothing else.... |
- "They can not get their heads around the fact that some of us do not have to hear an item personally to know it does not work. Guys, it is just knowledge and experience. It is very easy to take advantage of those that have neither. "
And then there are those of us who have been in the hobby in excess of 40 years. Those of us who have worked in the industry. Those of us who have worked the rooms at various audio shows for dealers and distributors. And finally, those of us who not only listen but know what to listen FOR. Frank |
I think people with less elaborate systems are constantly looking for inexpensive ways to improve their systems and fall pray to marketing hype. I will remind Mijostyn that i bought no tweaks i create my own... And i know that a relatively good Hi-Fi experience dont have to be costly by my experience . Others more gullible than me can read costly gear reviews...I know first hand that good gear is an important factor but secondary to the way we must take care of the mechanical electrical and acoustical embeddings .... It is also some gullible consumers of some COSTLY solutions that fall for the marketing hype....Not only Tweakers.... A costly equalizer is not superior to an hallograph because it is you that have bought it... Marketting hype reproach are valuable not only for tweaks it is also valuable when all people are condtioned to upgrade.... But it is not this upgrading process that is KEY to audio it is HOW to embed the system we already own... The key to audio with ANY system at ANY price,is controlling the mechanical vibrations and resonance problem, controlling the high moise floor of the house and of the system, and controlling the acoustical aspects of the room....NOTHING ELSE... Bashing other speakers or room without even having listened to it has no excuse...... No need to hear to judge adequately has no sense ....Like Mijostyn proove it judging Toole room at first sitght.... I am sad that people are willing to go stupid instead of admitting simple evidence: turntable lovers are not all fool, tweakers are not all stupid, and Hi-fi dont cost necessarily big money....We cannot judge in general without experiencing a system in his room eespecially if we want to correct it........ |
I judge a system with my eyes closed ... |
mijostyn, "@glupson, Hey, it is time for you to make a comment!" I was not planning, but now when you request... "...he would have a look on his face as though he had just eaten a crap sandwich.
...once the session was over, he would leave and never be able to forget what he had heard." Is it really that bad? Will it leave bad taste in his mouth? |
- "The key to audio with ANY system at ANY price,is controlling the mechanical vibrations and resonance problem, controlling the high moise floor of the house and of the system, and controlling the acoustical aspects of the room....NOTHING ELSE..."
BINGO!!!
|
"... we used the best electronics and speakers money could buy." Could you elaborate? Some are not looking for the best deal ("punches above price" and other poetry), but for the real deal. |
"I suppose you have super strength and X-ray vision as well? Nah ... super arrogance is your forte." Here's looking at ya kid! I mean, millercarbon. Up the gain. |
BINGO!!! I learn that by myself for the last 2 years with listening experiments.... I smile at any costly gear review... Electronic design is mature for the last 60 years.... It is installation of the system knowledge that is lacking for most people not the choice of their speakers or amplifier.... All can have a very good hi-fi experience if they learn how to install their system...The best there is cost money for sure....But the diminishing return laws exist.... I dont pretend my system to be the best at all, but it gives me the best it can give, yes....Better system if badly embedded will not be better anyway.... |
oregonpapa,
What are those four remote controls for?
What model is that little Nakamichi? |
mahgister-
Electronic design is mature for the last 60 years.... It is installation
of the system knowledge that is lacking for most people not the choice
of their speakers or amplifier.... You have a keen eye my friend- and ear.
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I’d resist the urge to oversimplify to make a case. For most, I suspect it is actually a mixed bag of both buying the right stuff and setting up well. Buy the wrong stuff and no amount of setup may ever make it right. Buy the right stuff and not nearly as much needed after the fact to try to make it right. Common sense. I do agree its not hard these days to buy good stuff that will work well together. Integrated devices can make that a snap these days. Not so easy still otherwise. Now, as a clear example, if its a Crosley integrated you choose, you might face some serious issues that no amount of setup will ever correct. But on the other hand buy an integrated amp something like this for a pittance and you will probably start off in a very good place, if not the "best": Amazon.com: Fosi Audio: Fosi Audio I can vouch for that one. Surprisingly good, might satisfy many with a good ear, but clearly not the best. |
Buy the wrong stuff and no amount of setup will ever make it right. When i spoke about embeddings controls i dont spoke about miracles against a sound engineering design for sure.... Bad or too cheap design is without redemption.... BUT it is relatively easy to buy a very good amplifier for low price.... My Sansui AU 7700 was one of the best in his times, today it is only good but it is enough for me....I buy another one in case....😁 For speakers i buy Mission Cyrus 781 the top of Mission speakers but it is not here also the best in the world, only good one, but so good i dont need subwoofer... The most difficult part was to look for a very good DAC at low price... The NOs battery Dac of Christophe Mariac Starting Point Systems on Ebay with minimal design and only one TDA 1543 chip is for me perfect.... Not the best by damn good reason BUT.... I pay on a bid 20 dollars new....And i cannot criticize it on any count: timbre, imaging, soundstage, dynamic....Not the best byt so damn good upgrading is very costly.... To the best that i know what i must pay for an upgrade is : At least 12,000 buck Harbeth Speakers, Berning Zotl amplifier , Denafrips dac.... But my actual well embed only good system is so good because of the way it is under control in the mechanical aspect, the electrical grid not too noisy, and the acoustical taken care of, that upgrading is not very tempting... Take a vibraphone and a piano like in Sun Ra and Walt Dickerson magnificent cd "Visions"... Listen to the distinctive timbre of the piano notes and vibraphone notes, listen for the changing aural hues of each tone of vibraphone and the pulsating decay of the note... Listen to the critical bass notes of the piano.... Are the 2 instruments in the room? do they sound natural? is the sound come from the speakers? If they are in the room, with natural timbre very distinctive and no sound coming from the speakers, i call that an audiophile experience... There is better audiophile experience for sure, give me the three components i name above and it will be better.... But it will not trash my actual sound, only improve it because my actual audio system is relatively rightfully embed and good.... My best to you.... |
With many speakers these days most amps will sound different. SO you do not start in the same place regardless of the amp. Getting that alone right is not a guarantee and can wind up with costly mistakes.
Then there is that no two speakers sound exactly the same all the time.
Not so simple. A lot comes down to personal preferences in the end.
Just don’t oversimplify things to make a case and all will be well.
Nothing is ever that hard if you really know what you are doing. Audio is particularly tricky because much of it in the end comes down to personal preference which varies widely and is hard to quantify hence all the products out there that sell.
Also, yes, a good setup will ALWAYS make a difference but even there many ways to skin the cat and even worse each cat is different to start with. |
