Pass Labs

I was once a FAN of Pass labs older amps. Then i converted to OTL Tube Amps from Atma-Sphere and never looked back.

The Older Passlabs were nice not into the new ones.

Hmm. Yesterday I posted a response to bigkidz post which responded to my previous one, and then left for my gig. Today it’s gone. I wonder what I said that was unacceptable? I admitted that I didn’t disagree with the notion of it being considered not appropriate for this forum, but not any more than the comments of many others. I didn’t use profanity, slurs, or make personal attacks, but I did explain the difference between Regan---Donald, Reagan’s Chief of staff, and a former CEO of a certain well known Wall Street investment firm ( I better not use the name, as that may also be the reason for the post’s removal)---and Reagan---Ronald, the President.

and Paul Krugman the liberal Nobel prize winning economist doesn't understand?

Is this the same guy who said the stock market would never recover form the Trump election? 

Well actually Reagan DID have to raise taxes as his initial tax cuts were too severe and the deficit exploded.

The deficit did not explode and it was because they just spent more money it was not a direct correlation of his policies.

All this being said, it has been a very interesting read and many great comments and insights on between us all.  I appreciate all the posts.

So Happy Listening my fellow Audiopfools!  Any one in the NYC area send me a PM.

stfoth

"Seems like he'd be a tube guy"

+1

He was also into sax!
 

I respect you as well Charles, always well reasoned and respectful, more of what is required. The only thing that has changed over the past 8 years is the total unwillingness to compromise. There is one thing I really am not sure that you recognize or acknowledge Charles is the factor that "money" has come into the equation ("Citizens vs United"). We are truly being brainwashed by both sides. Now who is doing a better job is open to debate and subject to the philosophical perspectives that you assign to each of us.

PS I feel as Bigkidz but he a bit right of center me a bit left. To a far leaning right winger, I’m a "flaming liberal" to a far leaning leftest I’d probably be considered a traitor. See what I mean Charles, the divide I mean, how do we start talking to each other again?

I HEAR you Toddverrone and could not agree MORE! There are much more important issues in the big picture of our future and we better wake up soon!

Imagine the human race as a colony of bacteria on a petri plate.  the agar it feeds on is the earth.  we "know" what we have to do for our
long term survival but we don't have the will, even with the lives of our
children at stake.  We don't have the will because we are in a race to see
who gets to consume the most agar while there's still some left.
     We have the intelligence and the technology to lead wonderful fulfilling lives, and yet we are still living in a feudal society where only the few, the "entrepreneurs" get to live like kings.  We refuse to modernize
our social systems so that everyone can get a good education and
find out what they really want to do with their lives, and then have the opportunity to do it.  
     As for Pass equipment, it's not as "pretty" as some foreign makes,
but it sounds awfully good (IMHO) compared to just about anything out there.  You do NOT have to spend a lot of money to experience this.
I.E. take the little Aleph-3 (class-A, 30wpch) which goes for (about) $1.5K.  It can drive a great number of speakers and sounds wonderful.
Honestly it gets better than this- but (really) not all that much.
If you don't have a lot of money, then you don't really have to worry about it.  

Tubegroover and Charles - both well put.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but this back pedaling on environmental and sustainability progress is my major bone of contention with what bigkidz elaborated in his post. We can ignore the problems we know of at our peril. Not to mention the economic advantage of being a leader in these fields.. As we step back, China stands to gain in terms of global leadership and economic clout with regards to sustainable tech. The rest of the world is still moving ahead in these areas, whether we do or not.

@bigkidz 

I second your well crafted post sir. Well said on all counts! 

To add to your points bpd24  George H W Bush had to renege on his "read my lips" pledge by raising taxes to pay for the savings and loan debacle brought about by eliminating some of the regulatory policies of the Reagan (or is it Regan)  administration. His economic policies truly represented fiscal responsibility and he sure paid the price for it unlike the ones that promise everything that they can't possibly deliver. Not to bash Reagan but the "trickle down" economic policies certainly created growth as it generated more capital but it wasn't offset by spending cuts or raising tax revenues to offset the deficit. The new mantra was deficits don't matter as long as the GDP grows enough to offset the deficits, it's all "relative".

Well actually Reagan DID have to raise taxes as his initial tax cuts were too severe and the deficit exploded. When Jimmy Carter left office, not to use him as a shining beacon of anything, the budget deficit was 69 billion. But there is one thing he did leave, a solar water system on the White House roof that was symbolic of what he saw as America's future, alternative energy development. Reagan in his first act of symbolic contempt towards alternative energy was to remove the collector or why else would he have done it?

So there is no hero in this continuing saga. One thing for certain though, up to the Obama administration there was some degree of civility it not total agreement on issues. In the current atmasphere compromise is a poisonous word to a politician. I certainly hope that the democrats don't get into a quid pro quo with the "just say no" Republican Congress starting in 2010 did or else  we'll  all get what's  coming and most likely deserve. Let's ALL hope that this "tax plan" of the current administration can be refined to meet the needs of our collective nation rather than represent, what I see happening to a greater extent, the gradual phasing in of a plutocracy bought and paid for by rich special interests. As the middle class shrinks more and more this will likely be the outcome. And God forbid if laws only require a majority vote to pass in the Senate! If that happens as it did with the Supreme Court pick it is clear to me that we'll have to sink considerably more before the wake up call sounds off. The scary part of that scenario is how much more damage?

A revamping of our educational system  and retraining is the long term answer and it needs to be funded and paid for by tax payer funds, we all need to pay for it!  But in the current climate of "what have you done for me today" it is a tough sell. After all, when you can't make ends meet from one day to the next, why should it? People just want to see a brighter future and while it seems the current AND may I add last President wants to deliver, lets hope his understanding grows beyond what he has demonstrated some of us to date, time will tell.  Real change will necessarily come from the grass roots of this country. Wake up and be counted people and quit complaining, DO SOMETHING!

PS  " bdp24 not picking on you in any way and I am not dem or rep just a person who understands economic polices and and has studied economics, budgets, etc,. that the government indicates on its website."

.....and Paul Krugman the liberal Nobel prize winning economist doesn't understand? Don't know what your point is bigkidz. Having said that I agree totally with you regarding pricing in a business, things that consumer's often don't take into consideration. So far as 150K amps and 500K speakers, it really has nothing to do with me as I certainly am quite unfamiliar with this industry and the cost of things as you are but one thing I can do is :).  The new business model and more of what's to come maybe?
 

Coal is dead. Have you seen what mountaintop mining does? And scrubbers in coal plants do not remove the CO2. That is a huge problem with coal. Natural gas is immensely more environmentally friendly than coal. 

Also, the natural gas boom will kill coal. It really won't be the green sector. The green sector and natural gas extraction will and do provide way more jobs than coal ever will. Coal extraction is so mechanized, the need for workers will never be what it was.

I'm for making economic decisions based on data, not emotion. The data does not support coal.

OMG make it stop...

Audio starts with music. Without music there is no audio. But without audio there is still music.

Music always will be the most important part to buy audio. That is why the focus should be more regarding on how music sounds in real and how it being projected in space.

When we take a look to audio in general in many situations audio sounds so much different than the music sound in real.

What are the most common limitations?

First of all the sound in many sitations is a lot different than how music sounds in real. The biggest limitations these days is the lack of diversity in sound. This are all the layers from the lowest till the highest frequencies.

When I ask to people who also work in audio if they have an idea how instruments and voices sound and being formed as a shape during listening? Most don’t know. So my questions is; what are you selling?

They say; we let other people choose there own sound and system. Because we are learned that audio is a matter of personal taste.

Now I am aware that this is not the truth and the truth is totally different than people think it is.

What is the most important part of music? That is the emotion it owns. So you need to understad how the emotion works for us human beings. When I ask again to people who also work in audio how the emotion of us humans work and when we can feel it?

Most don’t know. Again I ask the question to these people; what do you sell? And how do you sell audio?

We let people choose their audio system themselves. Because we believe (audioblindness, based on the fact that we believe what ’others’ said to us) it is a personal matter.

When you don’t know how music, instruments and voices sound, how for God sake you will choose your personal audio system?

When we audition systems in audioshops, at audioshows or at the studio of a distributer almost all sets are incomplete based on what we call Tru-Fi.

This means based on facts that these systems all miss essential parts which are needed to create a realistic sound and stage like in real.

Systems which people choose by personal trial&error are almost always incomplete. And we can easilly explain in parts that their systems are incomplete. And by Tru-Fi we add parts whih are missing.

I never met a person who said to me; I prefer my own incomplete sound stage. What we do is, we make their systems more complete.

This means we add essential parts which influences our emotion. Because we work by the human emotion and what we can hear.

Almost all systems bought and created by trial&error are 2-dimensional. But in real music is being played in a 3-dimensional stage. When we audition most systems at audioshows, shops and at distributers the stage is flat till about 1 metre in depth.

Only when you understand the DNA/properties a loudspeaker owns you know which properties you need to reveal all the different properties a loudspeaker owns.

We sell only Monitor Audio in a physical 3-dimensional sound. This makes these speakers outperform their competitors. But when we look at shops, shows and the distributer the stage is 2-dimensional in almost each single situation.

This proofs that trial&error never will be able to reveal all the properties out of the Monitor Audio. It is like you play at the level of about 25% of the 100% it could create.

I play with Pass Labs since 2009. I owned different monos and poweramps ever since. I focussed on the DNA of Pass labs to use them maximum. Based on Tru-Fi, it is very easy that is misses an essential part of Tru-Fi.

Even when you use their poweramps and pre amps togheter, it is very easy to explain and proof that individual focus of voices and instruments is not as intimate and shaped as in real.

I owned the Pass labs XP-20 for about 2 years. It is a good pre amp, but not a stunning one like many of their poweramps are. This is based on the fact that when you use a pre amp which is able to create a stunning intimate physical stage with the right proportion of instruments and voices you will get a higher level in realism and also in emotion with any Pass Labs poweramp.

You cannot compare a Pass Labs with a Parasound. Based on the fact that most Pass Labs amps are able to reveal more diversity in the middle frequencies. It will make the music so much more emotional and intense.

I learned to distract all the properties of each single part of an audio system. This made me use Pass Labs so much more effective. When you are able to understand the advantages and limitations of a Pass Labs poweramp you can make it complete to use the properties which are missing out of other parts in your system.

We only work by properties. For example the Monitor Audio Platinum II can reveal more details and information than other brands could give us.

Their techniques and properties give us a huge 3-dimensional stage. With a life like physical intimate presentation of instruments and voices. As a bonus we also can let people hear more easy diversity in height of voices and instuments in particular.

I reveal properties out of cables, poweramps, pre amps, sources any many accessoires for audio. It is my goal to create the highest level in quality out of any loudspesker.

When you create your system by personal trial&error you have no idea which properties you use. Thst is why we call trial&error audiogambling.

You try things out and bring in other parts like cables, sources and many orther parts. When I ask a simple question to the people who work by trial&error they understand that it is ineffective and just one big gamle.

When I ask to all people who work like me for about 20 years in audio: Which properties do you take out when you take this loudspeaker, amp, source or cable out of your system? And which properties do you bring in when you chnage it by this loudspesker, amp, source or cable?

The aswer is; I don’t know. This proofs that they have no idea why the stage and sound is what we hear. And that is why trail&erro is so ineffective to create the best sound possible.

The facts show and proof that a system chosen by trail&error is not the right way.

I have to admit that a client of mine made my aware in januari 2016 that audio is not a personal taste and that I proved this to him. It took my time to understand what he meant.

Now we can proof it very easily and that it gives audio a different perspective. I can assure you that this way many of you can create a higher level in quality and emotion than you know now.

Hi Bigkidz, 
I appreciate your well reasoned comments that reflect wisdom and keen observation.  I am optimistic about the country's direction and leadership over the next four years.  Time will surely tell.  A vibrant rather than a stagnant economy is a vital necessity as step one of an evolving process. 
Charles 

Unfortunately Wind and solar don't begin to compete economically with coal. Coal is inexpensive and clean coal burning electric power stations are just as practical as clean gasoline cars with catalytic converters and both have ultra low emissions.

It would be great if Wind and Solar energy were cheaper than Coal but they are 5 to 10 times more costly than coal power at current coal prices.

Bigkidz - give it up. Coal is dead. Those people need jobs, not environmental destruction they won’t even benefit from. You want a winning industry? Wind power. Solar. Those industries are booming. They need workers..

Until the industry dies because air pollution is ok again. Otherwise, most of your facts were factual while looking at the argument from a completely different perspective and in the process glossing over the main point of rising income inequality. That is a proven fact. Yes, the rich take risks. But they are now taking greater and greater shares of the reward.

That said, expensive amps are hardly our most pressing issue as a society. Not worth freaking out over, at least.

bo1772,
I'll say it once, and then never again (unlike you).
You have told us all what we don't know well over 1000 times. To save us all from expensive future mistakes, and all of the "useless" trial and error, why don't you once and for all write a useful thread outlining all of your secrets to great sound?
If you don't want to share, then remain quiet and go your way.

dweller1,422 posts05-01-2017 7:55am@georgehifi The parasounds were $6,000 pair when this article was written: Feb 16, 2003.

Still the best bargain around even with inflation, for high power, high Class-A bias monoblock poweramps. And used even better bargain.

Cheers George 

You need to compare them with other products in the same price league. There are always people who can afford it.

The biggest problem I have seen in the last 3-4 years is that most people are only able to create a rather low level out of the loudspeakers and amps they own

Even when you spend a lof of money on poweramps it will not solve this limitation. People who have audio as a hobby and even the people who work in audio don’t know a lot about the real properties each loudspeaker owns.

The choices they make are only founded on trial&error. This means that they try differerent combinations. But they still have no idea about which properties they take out and which ones they bring in by changing to another amp, source, cable or loudspeaker.

That is why trial&error is audiogambling. There is no discussion possible to find a good foundation to create any audio system by trial&error.

The properties are just one part. The other reasons why people are only able to get a low level in quality is based on the parts which influences the sound and stage in a nagative way.

We see that most people in audio and also who use it as a hobby have only a little knowledge in:

- the acoustics
- electricity
- smog
- high freqency noise
- magnetism

And what diversity in sound is and why it is the most important part to reveal the emotion the music possesses.

When audio goes on by trial&error the facts show that you are only able to use a low level out of any amp.

An amp like the XS150 and XS300 will not make it more easy compared to a cheaper amp. When you are not able to understand properties and are aware of all the parts who influences the sound and stage negatively audio is one big gamble.

Money will never solve the problems and limitations people create by trial&error.

I usually stay clear of this type of discussion.
Grew up poor.
Went to the Army to get a chance to escape poor in the ghetto.

Take a quick look at FSB Ripcord. You will get a look at where I have been.

Yes, I have a pair of Pass XA 160.8s. I worked hard all my life. I earned them.

Each of us decides how to go through life. Also, cars, houses, education, jobs, sound systems, women, etc, etc.

Make Your Choices. Stop whining !

Harrylavo, I do agree that the 60s were also a great time to put together a great system. Quality tube equipment, with many available in kit form. So many more great choices today however. I currently own a Dynaco ST-70 and AR 3A TT, however have them for sale.  

Stfoth, you are correct.  If you browse the Audiogon Blue Book, it is clear that both the volume and the price of most high end gear took a huge hit in 2008-2009, making bargains available.  Since then, some items have maintained that price level, while others have continued to decline simply based on age.  But the early 2000's were a sellers market and prices were quite high by today's standards. 

That said, in the late 60's or 70's with even a modest middle class income could afford "hi-fi" with good sounding gear.  Truly terrific gear like the first Magnapans, the Rabco SL-8 straight line, etc.were affordable to a lot of people, much more than they would be today. I would nominate that period as the best market for (then) high-end gear.

If you want some Pass magic, grab a First Watt amp. As long as you have speakers that will mate well, reasonably efficient, you will never look back. Very happy J2 owner

I think this would be a great opportunity to ask Audiogon to implement a feature on every sale asking buyer and seller to donate a small percentage to world hunger.
Perhaps even an "I will if you will" check box so both parties feel compelled.
Good feelings all around and each party enjoys their new gear or sale knowing they helped the less fortunate, and with minimal effort or thought.

I’m a dealer for the above mentioned BHK amps and they are keepers. No purpose (expecially with the mono’s) to go above this level. The sonic benefits will come from investing in other areas of the system. (Or perhaps tube rolling which I haven’t yet tried)

As stated above, a lot of the ueberhighend kit is sold overseas.  Good. I like to see US products exported.  Bless Mr. Pass, maybe he can single handily restore our balance of trade.

Technics has a 8K system thats amazing !

Not the case of course with Pass, the manufacturing of their case alone is several hundred dollars.  A FEW THOUSAND MAYBE  you can't make their chassis for a few hundred.


bdp242,254 posts04-25-2017 7:11pm

Au contraire Schubert, I have been paying attention, and I was indeed speaking of the U.S. as a country. We all know the rich have been getting richer and the poor poorer since Reagan instituted his failed trickle-down economic policies.

That is a false statement:

During the Regan administration his policies had corporate revenues doubling and tripling which in turn lead to the largest economic growth, increase hiring or jobs, increase in pay, and all people made more money.  Do your homework please.  The rich always get richer because they invest and take risk to increase their wealth.

I’ve seen the stats from around the world. Swedes are a pretty contented bunch, even with their very high taxes. At least they get something for them!

I guess then they are happy being the new rape capital of the world according to CNN!

 My sisters daughter lives in Germany, married to a German, and they too are happy with their system.

Really, $20 billion spent on immigration and it is considered to be a disaster in Germany.  CNN again.

I don’t know many Americans who are; in a few decades our educational system has become the joke of the world, our health care system is a mess, we are falling behind in moving into a future-based economy---Coal? Are you kidding me?!

America spends more money on education than some countries have in total so it is not the money that is at fault.  Health care costs are going up and choices are going down unless you have no income and can get free health care, the rest of us are paying for that benefit.

Coal while not the best alternative to most of us, unless live in West Virginia where there are no jobs for the miners and their families or business alternative opportunities for the majority of the older working class.  I was in WV three weeks ago, one of the poorest states.  Let them starve you bet.

As far as mega buck products, try and manufacture something.  The milled solid aluminum chassis start at $1K and up.  The box and packing materials cost about $150 each.  Pay your 35% taxes, liability insurance, etc.  Parts costs are not cheap unless you are using the lowest priced capacitors, resistors, transformers, etc.  Design a chassis with all of the necessary holes punched out, yeah that can take from 3 to 10 prototypes, etc.  Then when it is all ready, advertise, get reviews, find dealers to carry your product line for free, etc.

Many people IMO have never heard what these high priced components can deliver.  Go spend time at a reviewers home and learn what they hear and how their system sounds.  You won't get there with most of the cheaper level products.  But this is a matter of ones own choice.  You can get really great sound if you can build a system with lower priced components it can be done but that usually takes time.

Most people don't know what their missing in their system until they experience the change or difference.  I ones had a well know preamp that I thought was really good for the money I paid for it.  THen I had another well know mfg preamp and that is when I realized what my preamp lacked.  I had to experience the difference because I did not think my preamp could be outperformed in the areas it now lacked.  I also modify, repair and build components.  Recently I told one of my first customers that the new version of the product I build for him was better by my new design.  He said how much better and I said 100% improvement.  He told me not possible.  I drove out to see him three weeks ago.  within the first 10 minutes he said, yeah you are right.

So my point being it costs real money to make a statement product or one that the mfg feels is better than the competition.  Research and development is expensive.  You make many prototypes to find something you think is very good, and the cost of parts is not cheap. Experience is what most people need to have before they make general statements.

Sorry for the rant, Happy Listening everyone!

bdp24 not picking on you in anyway and I am not dem or rep just a person who understands economic polices and and has studied economics, budgets, etc,. that the government indicates on its website.

I agree. The price of amps and speakers are out of sight.

With Nelson Pass help and open use if his first watt schematics 
I build a premium part reference FIRST watt F-6
A dual mono amp 2x of everything  and still 50wpc into 4 ohms.
By far the most helpful amplifier expert to the DIY, community .

Good things come to those who wait.  I've been trading up since the mid 80s. Started with kits and low priced gear. Now have a system I could never afford all at once -- including Passlabs XA mono amps and top of the line Cary tube preamp. Total cost over 30 years is actually quite modest. Imagine spreading car payments over that period of time.
And the stereo was sounding better and better throughout the whole time.

Some in their right mind do .

@jj77,
Funny how all hobbies and our progress in life changes our perspective. When we are younger and do not have the cash to blow, we feel even a $100 cable is a rip-off. When we do better in life and have a good disposable income we feel that a $2000 cable is a very good investment.
So nothing wrong with $85k amps. Forget $85k amps, nothing wrong with $200k amps as well. When you have the resources and the designer has the ability to build cost-no-object machines, everything is a very good investment. You live only once, so why not enjoy it? None of us complain about a $2.5 million Bugatti.

Mesch, I agree in general, but  MANY Americans  make less money today.adjusted for inflation, than they did 30 years ago .

 Does Nelson pass have anything to do with pass labs now?   I didn't think so. I consider him  One of the good guys who gives back to the DIY community,  not one of these con artists who is trying to make millions on fancy casework 

I am of the belief that there has never been a better time to be in the market for a high fidelity system than now, regardless of budget. Much of this due to those who pushed the high end envelope while offering 'affordable' products. 

Well, you guys have gotten me to jump, I’ve been reading this thread as it progresses and of course, I’m an audiophile and have an opinion about all of it.
So first... mega buck product? Over the years, I’ve been in business as a manufacturer, a manufacturers rep and a retailer, today, I’m a hobbyist. I’ve been to more shows than I care to count. I’ve walked into MANY show rooms of mega buck gear and shook my head wondering how someone could pay it, but in the same vain, every time I see a new mega buck product, I wonder, wow, for that price, is it better? Do they know something? and say, I’d like to try it.
So, If my funds were endless, would I purchase any of this gear? I don’t know, but I do know that its not crazy to try it.... As mentioned above, I’ve certainly had my share of $100 steaks through the years (and I look Like it) where many in this world are grateful to get a cup of rice and no, I would not sell my system to feed the world... you know, maybe if I truly believed that It would fix the world, but no, I wouldn’t sell my system, but I do donate regularly to help causes.... I think the issue that has enflamed others in comments above isn’t about spending the money or other human beings being desolate, but more the heartless uncaring attitude toward their circumstance.
Next, even though I don’t love people making money on me, I really don’t have an issue with a company or someone making a buck where they can.... for us on an audiophile forum, I feel that we need to where possible keep our forum as intended as a helping hand to educate, give helpful advice and promote our hobby.
So, Pass gear. It is as good of an overall line that exist on the planet... everyones taste, of course not, but Nelson has a reputation because of his outstanding product and his giving to the Audiophile community.
If you guys can afford a $65,000 amp bravo to you, but for those like me, there is always a ton of advice and recommendations on less expensive gear in this community....
I hope this helps,  Tim

Get a Pass amp its only 65k be a sport ASAP!!!

I posted an honest question a while back asking who would buy a Boulder 3060 amp hoping to learn more about the type of speakers that demand such an amp and the discussions went the same way as this thread. Lessons learned.

Stfoth - I agree completely. I think it's crazy that there are things that cost as much as they do, but I tend to notice it, remark on its insanity, then go about my day.. I think the responses about compassion and the plight of the less fortunate were in response to the post suggesting that those of us calling attention to such expensive gear are simply jealous that we haven't been given super expensive gear. That we are entitled. But I think for most of us it's the cognitive dissonance that comes with knowing this world has people paying $90k for stereo equipment at the same time there are people living off less than $2/day.

I'm not jealous, nor do I carry around hatred for those who own such things. But it's hard not to notice such outrageous price tags when they do pop up.

Wow. Three cheers for compassion and an open heart! I usually get chased off of male dominated forums for standing up for the oppressed, let alone seeing others take that stance. This hasn't been a politically minded forum, so it makes me happy to see that you aren't all lacking in basic human qualities.

I usually refrain from commenting in threads such as this, because these kinds of discussions tend to not be constructive and to have little to do with audio. In this case, however, I feel compelled to say that the post by Aardvarkbark seems to me to be among the most narrow-minded, arrogant, and lacking in empathy that I can recall seeing here.

This will be my only post in this thread. Regards,
-- Al

BHK Signature 300 Mono Amplifiers are just as good, They handle the IRS Betas Woofer towers with ease

God Bless You, tube .