Outlets and Wire Gauge? - Please help!

@jea48 Happy to report that both runs were installed with your recommended Leviton 5362-W and the result is better than expected. I should have done this years ago. Despite an hour, plus of research, I cannot find a single outlet equivalent  of the 5362 with a brass back strap. Do you know if they have a single outlet version? Thank you!

Ya why all the post deletions? Is it @jea48 posts getting deleted? His input and knowledge are always well received and appreciated. 

@audioguy85 

I also have the AQ Edison nrg outlets but I am running 10/2 to them. Did you back wire your outlets or wrap the wire around the screw? I found it very difficult to wrap the wire so I back wired mine. The screw seems to clamp down fine but I am wondering if I should try to wrap the wire around the screw. Have you tried both ways and could you hear a difference between the two ? Thanks ! 
 

Ron 

The sensitivity and impedance of the speaker has a lot to do with power draw from the amp.

Does my PC need to rated for 15A? I would think any quality after market would be? 

My PP20 charts draw, which is super cool. I was able to see my 30WPC Accuphase A36 pulling 300W, which became 360W when my friend brought over his Accuphase preamp. The total draw dropped to ~100W when I switched to my 400WPC AGD Gran Vivace. This was a cool lesson what I only guessed that solid state class A amps are power hungry, but this assumption could be wrong and specific to things other than class? I truly don't know.

The install was just completed and I am now afraid to connect my gear. Both my PS Audio PowerPlant 20 and Puritan Labs PM156 both say it is okay to connect to a 20A outlet, but the labels on the back of each read 12A Max and 15A, respectively. I have direct communication with each saying it is okay to do so.

Yes, it is. It's quite common, especially in the kitchen where 20 A circuits are run to multiple 15A outlets.  Of course, requires 12 gauge wire + 20A breaker, but this is absolutely routine.

The use of 20A circuits is recommended for multiple outlets, and sometimes required.  For instance, if your refrigerator is run on a circuit with other outlets that circuit should be 20A.

A significant and possibly not discussed/presented in this discussion thread is the relative amount of AC power draw from the AC mains line of the power amplifiers in use.  As we all realize, the amplifiers each of us use are not created equal in this regard. In "erik_squires" latest post stated " My modest 100WPC integrated just doesn't stress the circuit very much."

This is so true; I am fortunate to be operating a pair of mono blocks that their AC power draw from the AC mains line is relatively small.  

I would encourage "izjjzi" to investigate his amplifier(s) power draw with his loud speakers.  

The install was just completed and I am now afraid to connect my gear. Both my PS Audio PowerPlant 20 and Puritan Labs PM156 both say it is okay to connect to a 20A outlet, but the labels on the back of each read 12A Max and 15A, respectively. I have direct communication with each saying it is okay to do so. I have a Puritan Ultimate 20A PC, but it has a end specific to the 156. I guess I could connect the 156 to the wall and then connect the PP20, but I didn't want multiple hops. I was a bit out of my depth for the two dedicated runs and now it seems I'm out of my depth when it come to what's between the outlet and my gear...

@perazzi28  there is a trip curve for breakers, you would be surprised at just how much current for short durations that will not make them trip.

PS - When measuring voltage drop make sure you include the hot and neutral both. Meaning, for a 50’ 12 gauge Romex we expect ~ 3.2V drop per current carrying conductor, of which there are two: Hot and Neutral.

So the total effect of the voltage drop would be 6.4V total dropped (available) at the appliance, a little over 5%.

Assuming linear amps with unregulated supplies:

The lower the AC voltage the longer the recovery time for the amplifier storage capacitors, After an amp has been turned on and warmed up caps will only charge at the peak of the AC waveform so this becomes a bit of self-maintaining situation.

Whether or not it will affect your listening is another subject altogether, but personally I run all my gear after a Furman voltage regulator which keeps the incoming AC within 5 V at any point in time.  After my amp has turned on the biggest issues to my AC voltage are my heat pumps, oven and normal hourly variations in power supplied from the transformer.  My modest 100WPC integrated just doesn't stress the circuit very much.

Most other audio devices are fully regulated, and, with enough excess storage capacity, may never feel any difference between 100V and 130V.

invalid,

invalid

..."A 20 amp circuit can handle a lot more than 20 amps for short durations of time, which is why 10awg wire works better especially for high powered amplifiers that can cause the voltage to drop considerably."

I would agree with half of the above statement.  The 10awg wire can certainly handle more than 20 amps but not so much for the 20 amp breaker.  There probably is a +margin for amperage draw but not much.  Fortunately for my purpose, I did install a typical dedicated 20 amp outlet in my listening room.  This run from service panel to outlet is only 25'.  I have never detected any sign of low voltage behavior.  

You may have equipment that is more susceptible to voltage supply demands or the like.  I am certain that your power set-up gives you some confidence and that does matter.  That checks off that box!

Best listening!

Thanks for your input

 Report this

@perazzi28 just because you aren't tripping the breaker with all that equipment on one circuit doesn't mean you are getting top performance. A 20 amp circuit can handle a lot more than 20 amps for short durations of time, which is why 10awg wire works better especially for high powered amplifiers that can cause the voltage to drop considerably.

izjjzi,

I am running all audio equipment on a regular 12awg/20 amp circuit with the following:

2 mono blocks with power output specs of 350W @ 8ohms/540W @ 4ohms. They each can swing 40 amps symmetrical & 52.6V RMS @8ohms. These are plugged in to the same duplex outlet.

A subwoofer via a class D amp, Preamplifier, HDA PC, Turntable, etc.  All on the same circuit.

You can do this!

cleeds, et al.,

Mia culpa, you certainly may run 10awg wire from a 20 amp breaker to a special 20 amp outlet that will accommodate that wire size.  You will not gain any more amperage as the circuit breaker will only allow roughly 20 amps.  If your wire run is really long, you will have less voltage loss with 10awg.  A 50-foot run of 12awg will lose 3.95V, while the same length of 10awg will lose 2.49V.  I overstated/misstated the safety issue. 

Cheers

invalid

... you can use 10awg wire with a 20 amp breaker, the breaker is what makes it safe not the oversized wire. I have 10awg wire on 20 amp breakers with 20 amp outlets and this passed inspection.

Absolutely true and my dedicated outlets also passed inspection. One definite advantage to derating the wire (such a s 10AWG on 20A line) is it reduces voltage drop. That’s especially useful if it’s a long run between panel and receptacle.

@perazzi28 your information is wrong, you can use 10awg wire with a 20 amp breaker, the breaker is what makes it safe not the oversized wire. I have 10awg wire on 20 amp breakers with 20 amp outlets and this passed inspection.

This is just basic outlet wiring practices and how to follow electrical codes.

A 15-amp circuit should be wired with 14 ga. only.  Using larger ga. wire is a fools errand.  In this situation, you can basically overload the circuit and not trip your protective circuit breaker in your service panel.

A 20-amp circuit should be wired with 12 ga. only.  Same thing applies as above.

Whether or not an outlet can physically be wired with a larger conductor/gauge wire is unsafe and is an electrical code violation.

Using multiple outlets to the same room location on different circuits is an invitation for ground loops.  In an attempt to avoid ground loops, you should locate those circuit breakers on different bus locations in your service panel prior to finalizing their locations.  You may need to re-arrange them, so leave the service panel cover off until you ensure that you don't have a ground loop.  If/when you are successful, then you can break-off the service panel breaker covers at their finalized locations.

Just because someone else wires their breakers/outlets with oversized wire doesn't make it right.

10 AWG to a 20A receptacle is fine.

The electrician is pushing back (likely) because 10 AWG is more expensive, more physically difficult to work with, not something they normally do, and frankly, overkill.

That said, it's your money, you're entitled to get what you want as long as it's safe/legal. If he's not amenable to this, find another guy.

I would send your electrician back to electrician school.  10 AWG is fine for a 20 Amp receptacle.  In some situations it would be considered overkill but a determining factor is the length of the wire run.  Depending on how long the wire run is, it may be preferred because of less resistance and voltage drop.  For a 50 ft run, I would definitely go with 10 instead of 12.  

Just want to get on my soap box here a little:

The best place for MOV surge protection is in your panel. Now required by the NEC, however they still have high let-through voltages. The NEC, and all major panel makers recommend you supplement them with point of use surge protectors.

Based on the Wirecutter testing, which AFAIK is the only reviews which include actual surge testing done in the past 10 years, the best are Furman and Trip Lite.

@jimf421 

You don't need an isolated ground to prevent hum. What may prevent hum is ensuring all your equipment is wired to a ground that is at the same potential. Multiple separate outlets where the ground reference is 30 feet back at the electrical box is a way to get hum.

Better way to eliminate hum is to use balanced connections.

If you have balanced connections and you still have hum, you have a problem you missed. Bad equipment, a cable TV connection you forgot about, another load on the line making a lot of noise on the AC.

Ground loop hum is because ground currents are flowing in signal wires that should not be. For that to happen, there must be a difference in ground potential of the two pieces of equipment. An isolated ground does not help that as it must be connected back to the panel with your other ground. The new ground didn't fix the problem. Isolating the AC runs may have.

@erik_squires  I too am in MA, western MA.

@jimf421 My electrician mentioned my new runs being on isolated grounds.

Like Erik, I too am in IT but spent three summers in my youth renovating turn of the century houses where I had to replace all electrical and plumbing. My education was outside of books and for a man, who was a master in my eyes but I will never know if he was licensed or not. He owned all of the houses. I know nothing of the NEC.

My Home Theater setup is attached to an isolated ground (ask your electrician). It helps prevent hum.

@raysmtb1 I work in IT now. As a young man I worked for a motion picture audio company, and much later picked up what little I know of the NEC when I re-fitted a basement for woodworking. I purchased an actual textbook (not a DIY guide) and poured over the relevant sections. I’m sure others here understand the NEC better than I do by far, and certainly better than I do now, being decades away from what I learned, and the peculiarities of my state’s (Massachusetts) variations of it.

I just moved into a 17 year old house which was a rental for it’s entire life, so that sent me back to it again. It wasn’t terrible but after looking at what the home inspector tagged, the "haunted" lights and inspecting a couple of outlets I decided to overhaul all the outlets, switches and 120V breakers. Things have changed since my wood shop. In-panel surge protectors are now mandatory and CAFCI breakers are required in all 120V circuits in a home. Some outlets which were OK not to be GFCI’d now require it, and home outlets now have to be Tamper Resistant as well. Puts a damper on a lot of those boutique outlets people are buying. 😁

What happened above with all of the posts that got removed?

It's unfortunate that dome very good information has been deleted here.

I have tried quite a few power receptacles, and I'd narrow it down to these two......right now using the Furutech gold. I much prefer both over the Cardas outlet for SQ.

(1) Furutech GTX-DG (Gold) or GTX-DR (Rhodium) - Gold version $176 at the Cable Co., Rhodium version $250 same place

(2) Oyaide R-1 (NOT SWO versions) - $187 at the Cable Co.

Both receptacles are 20AMP and will accept 10 AWG wire

@erik_squires what do you do for a living? You are the man with this electrical code knowledge. Excellent thanks for taking the time to explain the complications of electricity. I wish I had your knowledge. I think it would take a lifetime to completely understand the electrical book