Outlets and Wire Gauge? - Please help!

Well, usually #10 is overkill, but your electrician is mistaken.  He is mistaking minimum required for maximum allowed. Here’s a listing from Lowe’s for a typical Commercial/Residential. Says clearly:

Convenient back and side wire connections allow for use with #10-#14 AWG solid or stranded wire

The Eaton website says the same thing. 15A outlets will take 10 gauge wiring but worthwhile checking on a case by case basis.

If you really wanna know if it’s money well spent. You should record a video of your smart phone screen while using an app for your phone that measures LUF’s. LUF,s are what sound engineers measure instead of measuring RMS. From what I’ve read it’s the superior way to measure music. I found this app for my iPhone called.”youlean LM”. The app is very easy to read, and will also keep a record of the sound that your equipment is producing. You could measure some music or some test tones from the same location in your room before and after you change the wiring. It would be really cool to find out if it makes a difference at all. I’m putting my money on that it will not make a difference. But, if I’m wrong, then I will be calling my local electrician and having mine changed as well. 

Find another electrician.  

I recently installed a bunch of 15 amp outlets with 10 awg solid wire.  

Your electrician apparently wants to use the back stabs which are a poor contact.   do not let him use back stabs period.  all connections to outlets must be screws. 

Jerry

I have never had problems like this with electricians other than they think I am crazy. I just installed 10 gauge Romex and use 15 amp hospitals grade or audiophile outlets either 15 amp like AudioQuest or Cardas. Typically most home subwoofers and amps do not require 20 amps.

Also, typically folks would run one direct line for components / conditioner, and one for amp… I guess you could run one for the subwoofers.

Yes, 10 gauge sounds better than 12 or 14. And get a different electrician, he clearly does not understsnd basic wiring.

@carlsbad +1

Ground loops should not be a problem unless you have two different breaker boxes and one line comes from one and one from another. If they are both dedicated lines and from the same box, there should be no problem.

Electrician is fine. He explained that the outlets he's used to have plastic "walls" on either side of the screws and the 10 gauge wire will not wrap around the screws. I too have worked with 14 gauge and found the fit tight on consumer outlets. He never back stabs. 

I read about the cardas and audiquest but also about the Leviton 5362, for example at a fraction the price. I do not need to "cheap out" but if we are talking apples to apples...?

He said it's cheaper to get a single roll of 10awg and run two, 20A circuits. I am going that route.

Thank you for the replies!

I'm left with selecting a worthy outlet. Which do you swear by??

You can’t back stab anything larger than 14 gauge. The holes are too small for anything bigger. You can back-wire, which is entirely different.

To be clear, back stabbed connections don’t use screws. They use spring loaded prongs which have a tendency to have poor connectivity and come lose. IMHO you should get rid of 100% of those from your home.

Back wired connections also use a straight in approach but the wire is clamped down by the force of the screw, and is held by two solid metal plates on either side. It IS a little more susceptible to losing it’s grip than wrap-around wiring, but a lot better than back stabbing.

@jea48 Thank you. I ordered two. It is basically a no risk option at $11 each. I know my system and will see what changes. Going this route affords me time I may or may not need, but I strongly suspect I will be happy. 

The funny thing is that there isn't much to outlets. There is no mystery or magic, just materials. Stands to reason that if you find identical materials in a $10 outlet vs a $200 one, it would be questionable to choose the more expensive one.

New question is regarding burn-in. I suspect it is real and I wonder how many hours I should put on these before judging them?

@izjjzi you were making so much sense until you got to the last sentence of your last post. There is no way that a human or a machine for that fact could tell a difference in an electrical signal within the first 48 hours of it being plugged in.

and I’m not sure what the guy who is writing the post above me is talking about either. From what I can tell, he’s gonna say it makes a difference if it goes through the attic. Versus another space and did they run the wire on the face of the joist or bore holes in the joist. Nothing I’ve written in this paragraph will make any difference and sound.

He wants to use a plug a decent size load into these new wires for 48 hours. What are you supposed to do plug in a couple microwave ovens and let them run for 48 hours? I’m really sorry but none of this makes any sense. White possibly could the amount of spaces that are empty in the panel have anything to do with anything?

@jea48 I live in a split level ranch, so the panel is on the bottom floor in an unfinished room used as the laundry room. It is quite large. The adjacent room has the oil burner, two tanks and shelves of storage. The metal jacketed cables will be run through the floor joists and through a hole to be drilled through the concrete wall. The boiler room is under the garage and is concrete on all sides. My audio room is behind this room. 

Left side of the panel has seven free slots with only one left on the right (20 per side). A new solar panel system has a double breaker in the bottom two slots on the left side, so the free seven are directly above this one.

@raysmtb1 My last sentence is not a statement, it is a question. A question based on a great deal of reading and videos demonstrating how sound can change over time from an outlet. I have seen and heard too much in this realm to not discount claims that an outlet too will change the sound over time. 

Best, and happy listening!

@izjjzi sorry if I was being a little rough last night. I think I blew a gasket after reading so much bad information on the this forum. The only way that I know that an outlet can change over time is if a vermin chews through the wire feeding the outlet. Many of these threads end up leaning towards the science deniers because the people arguing for science tend to get their comments deleted. I think it’s probably because they can’t believe what they’re reading and lose their mind and maybe should’ve not used a derogatory word or two…either that or, the science crowd doesn’t have a way of putting money in the forum owners coffers, like all of the manufactures of this junk do. Please accept my apology.

@raysmtb1 No need to apologize. My degree is in science. I am all about science but things exist that I cannot explain or measure... When all things seem equal in terms of materials, why do I hear a difference? Why do things change over time? I stopped looking for reasons and have accepted it. I hear it, I accept it. I ask those who have been around these things for a long time. I do not take anything as fact. I rather make note of it for reference and compare them to my experience. I have learned that I can get a pretty good idea of what to expect from asking, and so far it's been a reliable approach. 

One example is with the Fleetwood Sound Deville SQ loudspeakers I just broke-in. The dealer told me to put 150 hours on them, so I tracked play time and and made notes along the way. I would listen to the same two tracks and note my observations. I noticed a huge change around 47 hours. When I was just 3 hours in, I posted my initial impressions and asked other owners for their feedback. The first reply came around 70 hours when one owner wrote, "I noticed the biggest change at 50 hours and only minor improvements continued from there." No, it is not a scientific study, but in this hobby it's good enough for me. Justification from someone I never met who didn't know what I had experienced at 47 hours. 

My goal has never been to debate these things. I am seeking the best possible synergy because late night music is my escape. I want to be drawn into the music. I want the vocalist to be in my room. I want their passion to give me goosebumps. I have this now and don't want to mess it up with this change. I want to do everything right based largely on other's trials and tribulations.

The best part about this thread is only paying $22 for two outlets. Not one salesman or "pinky in the air" person chimed in claiming I need to spend hundreds of dollars on brand XYZ, "or else!"

@jea48 Yes, MC, aluminum jacket with solid CU core.

The electrician has done multiple installs for home theater and dedicated audio rooms. He too has a dedicated room. I was just the first to push for 10awg. He already discussed everything mentioned in the links you provided and within your words. The lines will be about 18" apart. He wrote, "We will be installing 20a Siemens afci/gfci breakers on its own circuit with a dedicated ground. It's the best we can do in terms of noise for that circuit." 

I am committed at this point, so it is what it is. Truly appreciate the time you've taken for me! 

As long as you follow the rules as written by the national electric code all of this other stuff doesn’t make a difference. The engineers that designed the product that you purchased at the store have thought through all of this. Of course you know AC stands for alternating current. For some unknown reason, people fall into the trap of thinking of electricity as if it were water. Some of the metaphors between AC current and water do make sense but many others don’t. Before you hear anything musical, it’s all converted into DC inside the component. Every component does this, that’s the point where everything changes and the engineers have designed the cleanup of the power. If I was an engineer, and I’m not, but if I was, I would want this step in the process to be as effective as possible as to not make my product susceptible to interference. Thus making my design sound less than what it could. You’ve got this process in every component in your system. It’s been cleaned up right before it hits the DC circuitry , that makes the component work. The engineers have left no time for it to get contaminated. If you’re going to think of this as cleaning up the power that’s the place to do it. Right before you drink it and that’s what they’ve done in every product that you have in your system . 
 

I think that these changes that you speak of that happen daily can be attributed to you and not the device. Think about all of the things that change inside of us as living organisms. Depending on how much moisture is in the air affects your sinuses, which are part of your ear, nose, and throat. What about the amount of earwax and location of the earwax that changes from day to day? how about just your general mood? I’m sure if I thought about it I could come up with more. I really believe that there’s more things that alter what we hear because of being human than things that change inside of a wall outlet.

@jea48 I uploaded a photo of the panel to my system.You can see it under my profile.

I do not worry too much about this. The electrician plans on rearranging some things. He may be adding a sub panel for this. 

I only listen at night when the family has gone to bed. I have central air - no ceiling fans. 

I will be connecting a new Puritan Audio 156. My PS Audio PP20 is for sale.

I have been living off of a single 15A run that has more cheap outlets along the run than you would believe, and I have been happy with the sound. I am expecting better things from dedicated runs, and I will finally be able to have some lighting in the room by using the old 15A run

Doesn’t afci/gfci refer to duplex receptacles that are used when there isn’t a ground wire present? You can buy them at Home Depot.

@evelyn1

They are 2 different types of protection. GFCI protects from shock, AFCI from fires, and the requirements are different.

GENERALLY speaking, GFCI is required near water (bathrooms, kitchens and outside) or to replace 2 prong outlets when a true ground isn’t present. The Ground Fault (GF of GFCI) happens when you become part of the electrical current pathway.

Arc Fault Circuit Interruptors, now upgraded to Combined AFCI (i.e. CAFCI), detect sparks that happen in the walls or junction boxes. While GFCI is required near anything wet, CAFCI is now required on ALL residential 120V circuits.

So, generally speaking, CAFCI gets implemented in breakers, GFCI on outlets, but there are combined breakers and outlets that do both.

Should note however that while GFCI’s are legal for 2 to 3 prong upgrades in old homes most surge protectors won’t work without a true ground. If you have expensive computers or home electronics and want surge protection you should get a ground installed.

Historically, GFCI predates AFCI by decades, but the NEC has continued to expand the requirement for them. Now you may need GFCI on your range or refrigerator depending on where they are in your kitchen, and those are most convenient with GFCI breakers.

Of course, these requirements are only enforced with new construction and updates. You aren’t required to retrofit old circuits but you may.

Should note however that while GFCI’s are legal for 2 to 3 prong upgrades in old homes most surge protectors won’t work without a true ground. If you have expensive computers or home electronics and want surge protection you should get a ground installed.

@erik_squires, explain surge protection on a product with a 2 prong AC cord.

@thespeakerdude

explain surge protection on a product with a 2 prong AC cord.

Typical MOV based surge protectors use the ground as a drain. At high surge voltages they attempt to short to ground and sometimes the neutral as well. Using a GFCI as a 2 to 3 pin adaptor won't create a magical ground path.  That is, there would be no ground to short to.

With any appliance the surge protector is trying to keep surges which (hopefully) are coming down the hot wire.  So, you have 600V suddenly on your hot. Where do you put it?  Neutral is 1 conductor, but having 2 conductors is better.  What if the surge happens on both neutral AND hot?  You need ground as your option.

Pure series mode surge protectors like SurgeX and Brickwall are exceptions. Furman / Panamax with SMP uses a belt and suspenders approach though, so while they are mostly series mode, there is some shunting possible, and they need that ground.

Based on the latest testing I’ve seen however Furman and Tripp Lite have the lowest let-through voltages, not to mention a plethora of features so I continue to recommend them first.

I remember before arc fault protection came along that GFI was a ground fault breaker and that GFCI was a ground fault receptacle.

@evelyn1 The same feature (GFCI) is available in either a breaker or outlet. It’s more convenient as an outlet if you are in the kitchen and trip it. Dry your hands and reset the outlet. I use the term interchangeably and I think most do as well (see below).

It’s less useful to have a GFCI outlet for a fridge or range because you have to pull the unit out to get to it. 🤣 This is why GFCI breakers are convenient. However the behavior is 100% the same.

(PS - I just checked the Siemens site and they call them GFCI breakers too)

@erik_squires 

 

Typical MOV based surge protectors use the ground as a drain. At high surge voltages they attempt to short to ground and sometimes the neutral as well. Using a GFCI as a 2 to 3 pin adaptor won't create a magical ground path.  That is, there would be no ground to short to.

With any appliance the surge protector is trying to keep surges which (hopefully) are coming down the hot wire.  So, you have 600V suddenly on your hot. Where do you put it?  Neutral is 1 conductor, but having 2 conductors is better.  What if the surge happens on both neutral AND hot?  You need ground as your option.

A voltage, even a surge voltage, must be between two points. If all you have is line and neutral because you have a 2 prong plug, then those are the only wires the surge can come in on. If there is no other path to ground, than the ground connection of a surge protector can't help you.

@thespeakerdude

Congrats man, you’ve just proven surge protectors can’t work. :) You are on your own now, and ignoring the fact that ground and neutral are bonded at the service entrance as well as basic MOV surge protection design. 

If you want to have those arguments you are on the wrong site.

is 10awg existent inside your amp or inside your speakers, once you're past the binding posts?  

seems like overkill, but whatever floats your boat

the relatively inexpensive outlets that provide solid plug connection seem reasonable

but like I said, whatever you feel will "work" for you

A run of 12 awg (yellow romex), an audioquest nrg edison receptacle, 1 20 amp breaker, this is all you need to do. It’s what I’ve done (installed myself) and did not break the bank. Plugged into the audioquest receptacle is an audioquest Niagara 1200, and a Furman pst-8. This has served me well for the last 4 or five years.

Congrats man, you’ve just proven surge protectors can’t work. :) You are on your own now, and ignoring the fact that ground and neutral are bonded at the service entrance as well as basic MOV surge protection design. 

If you want to have those arguments you are on the wrong site.

I don't know why you are taking on an attitude. A surge protector will work just fine with a product using a 2 prong AC cord. It will protect against a surge voltage on line and neutral with which is the only surge voltage a product with a two prong plug can be damaged by, unless there is another path to ground. You are ignoring the basic principle that current or a surge cannot flow unless there is a path.  What does ground and neutral being bonded at the service entrance have to do with a 2 prong plug with no ground connection?

Typical MOV based surge protectors use the ground as a drain. At high surge voltages they attempt to short to ground and sometimes the neutral as well.

A typical MOV based surge protector will short the surge current to wherever the surge voltage exceeds the MOV rating. Line to Neutral. Line to Ground. Even Neutral to Ground. In commercial installations and outdoor installations, the wires are long enough that if there is a surge event, you can even get large voltage differentials between neutral and ground.

When we get speakers back and trace it to blown MOVs from a surge, it is almost always the MOV between line and neutral because the spike isn't from lighting, its from a generator or transformer failure and the surge current is carried on line and neutral.

is 10awg existent inside your amp or inside your speakers, once you're past the binding posts?  

@curtdr yes to both questions, my apogee duetta 2 speakers have 10awg and my amp has very little 10awg wire, most of the connections for the output stage uses copper buss bars.

10AWG is a good choice for high end audio equipment. It also provides the additional benefit of allowing you to plug in an extension cord and charge your Tesla when your system is idling in the "standby" mode.

@erik_squires what do you do for a living? You are the man with this electrical code knowledge. Excellent thanks for taking the time to explain the complications of electricity. I wish I had your knowledge. I think it would take a lifetime to completely understand the electrical book

I have tried quite a few power receptacles, and I'd narrow it down to these two......right now using the Furutech gold. I much prefer both over the Cardas outlet for SQ.

(1) Furutech GTX-DG (Gold) or GTX-DR (Rhodium) - Gold version $176 at the Cable Co., Rhodium version $250 same place

(2) Oyaide R-1 (NOT SWO versions) - $187 at the Cable Co.

Both receptacles are 20AMP and will accept 10 AWG wire