After a 3 year roller coaster ride with so called "Audiophile High End" Tube Amps,/Tube Preamps, multi thousand dollar DAC's, Speakers of all shapes and sizes, and several DIY mods. I've settled on what will be my "forever system" and stop chasing a Dragon that I'll never catch. There's more important things in life to worry about. Plus HIgh End crap can be very fickle at times. It has taught me though what sounds good and how to get there and of course how much it will cost new or slightly used.
For the first time, I'm building a system around the Speakers. I'm an electronics Geek so that has ALWAYS come first. I've always done DIY Speakers as well form High School to College to married life (my Wife puts up with A LOT).
My Bose 901 "passion" will be with me forever. I will defend those Sealed Box odd shaped boxes till I do. Any old Geezer will be told off wherever they knock that Brand down. I did it last last week.
Anyways, the list :
Klipsch Cornwall IV's driven by a pair of resto modded McIntosh MC50's
Sony UBP-X1000ES (gotta get some more before they and the 1100ES become as rare as the overpriced Oppo crap) with my mods to the Analog Output boards
Orchard Audio Ultra Amplifers x6 (I'm getting near the end of hand buiding/soldering the 6 pcb's)
Stax SRM-007tA with Koss 95/X Electrostatics
Surround Speakers will be 4x Series I/II Speakers with two on Tulip Stands and two more hung from the ceiling (what the Wife can see sitting down but can hear is always a good thing)
Center Channel with be two Heresy's resting horizontally angled up towards the screen slightly
two double stacked 12" H-Frame Subwoofers on the back wall
All the Electronics will be mounted in the wall giving lots of space for the Cornwall to do their "thang"
@rajugsw The exit from my roller coaster ride aligned with the decline of my quality of my hearing. I became a much more tolerant of imperfection when I couldn't hear the difference anymore. Now I have 8 cars, and less audio equiopment.
Your posted resonated with me on many levels.
First, I wrote a long and passionate post about a week ago in defense of Bose 901s and Bose 901 owners. I hope you had a chance to read it. I also wrote a similar post recently in support of McIntosh. I'm a bit of a speaker geek and received a patent for the Open Line Source speaker back in 1990. I/we are currently involved in performance mods and had suprisingly good results with a pair of 901 S1s. In addition to some serious "tweaks" the speakers, we also applied some "high end thinking" to the crossover. If you'd like to compare notes at some point, I'll be happy to share our approach and results.
Cornwalls: I have a strong emotional attachment to these speakers. I become a Klipsch dealer in 1982. When unloading our first shipment off the truck, I was in the process of taking a Cornwall from the truck to the ground by myself when I felt a severe pain in my back. My immediate impulse was to just let go and let them hit the asphalt. Then, I remembered how much money I had in the speaker and gingerly took them safely to the ground. In the coming days, I was in agony. At the age of 31, it was my first realization of my mortality. I had an injury that wasn't going heal on its own. I have the Cornwalls to "thank" for this life lesson. We continue to do Klipsch performance mods. We know "stuff" about Klipsch speakers to make them sound better. I know there are popular kits out there that do a good job. But, I like the draw the analogy of spending $4k for a turbo upgrade on your car and driving around with the parking brake on. We start by making sure the parking brake is disengaged. If you want to compare notes on Klipsch performance, we can compared notes on this as well.
A few years ago, I removed my (really good sounding) modified "industrial look" separates and replaced them with amp/preamp brand that I had aspired to own to my entire life -- McIntosh. I'm sure your M50s are a great choice to drive the Cornwalls.
I haven't messed with H-frame subs. Sounds interesting.
In classical economics as defined by Marshall you have come up against the punishing law of Marginal Productivity. One could draw a graph with audio "quality" on the side and $ spent on the bottom resulting in a curve that rose steeply at the start, then flattened to the point there was no real increase for ANY amount extra spent. In other words you hit a plateau of economic and hi fi reality.
Before he music industry and home reproduction to the DIN 4500 standard crumbled in the face of commercialisation of the digital domain for hedgefund profit, a thriving electronics industry catered for a wide range of needs providing on the whole equipment and listening pleasure that was realistically priced in the mid range.
I suggest you delve into the world of vintage electronics (but make sure you have the services of a good tech!) whether it be 1970s Japanese monster amps and receivers such as Sansui or design led beauties from B and O or Philips from the same era. A Linn Sondek table will still deliver the gods as well as anything looking like a prop from a SciFi movie. Lastly remember the audio chain is only as good as its weakest link. Sticking to one manufacturer for components that have been designed to work together will cut out a lot of wasted time. Audition speakers before buying and place and tweek the room to get the best acoustic. Aim for simplicity. Unless you live in a mansion with a dedicated music room surround sound will be a waste of time. Stuck to two channel stereo. Avoid silly theories such as pre-amps without tone controls - bi-wiring speakers - spikes for speakers - over priced inter connects and speaker cable - valves sound "better" than transistors "full stop" - all digital is bad - you can get good sound via streaming and downloads - etc. etc. Finally the MORE you spend the better it IS! The basics are: if you are listening to the equipment, after setting up which should not take a lifetime, and not the music then give up!
There is a nice DIY mod for those Cornwalls that really add to their performance. Involves damping those plastic horns. Bracing the cabinet. And some work on the crossover and wiring. It's a few hundred bucks but it's a good nice positive change. Don Sachs let me in on it from someone else and brought those Klipsch up to another level. Look it up.
What most people call " high end " is related often to dynamic and details resolution improvement which is the MOST deceptive perception related to high end upgrading..Especially when the room is not treated really or poorly treated and not mechanically controlled at all...
What you called "high fidelity" of tone and sound perspective is coming from a better TIMBRE perception which is the acoustic CONDITION and BASIS for improving all other acoustical cues in the room..
My system is low cost ( 500 bucks) and because of the control over my dedicated room acoustic i experience a so good sound that i will never need to upgrade...Nobody believe me because of the low cost of my gear...Price tag import more for most people than acoustic science...
Most people dont know what is "timbre" and the "time envelope"of the timbre components and his "spectral envelope" and what are the acoustic conditions for the optimized perception of timbre using the pressure zones dynamic modification and the timing of the first frontwaves with the reflected waves...It is necessary to transform the room for the specific need of a particular type of speakers for your specific ears structure and history...
Most people buy electronic basic gear or very costly one without placing much attention to acoustic...
This is the key error pervading all audio....Underestimating acoustic and throwing money on a 100,000 bucks piece of gear...
I dont needed gear ...Basic one do the job...
I needed acoustic thinking and a dedicated room , and way more than panels, be it reflective, absorbing and diffusing one in a balance way..This is passive material acoustic treatment It takes way more...I needed mechanical control of the pressure zones with Helmholtz method using resonators but also diffusers...I used near 100 tubes of size varying from a straw to a 8 feet one...
I disconnected definitively 7 pair of various headphones type and put them in a closet with my subwoofer...Guess why? they cannot compete with the speakers/room controlled synergy...
Think about acoustic being potentially like a powerful huge transfprmation of ANY gear system to the sky...
Acoustic is way more than upgrading...
My best to you....
In the distant past I never questioned whether High End equals High Fidelity. And then it has happened to me (in 2002) that I heard a guitar recording (made with my guitar) that my musician friend made (without processing or editing, straight recording, only level was adjusted). I have listened to him play the guitar between my speakers and the recording to compare one right after the other.
I think very few have the chance for such hard core comparison for fidelity, with an instrument I intimately know, and my musician friend, whose playing I have enjoyed for uncounted hours in my lifetime. Plus, unadultered recording that allows looking into fidelity.
Through my system at that time I had no trouble identifying the exact guitar on the recording - after two notes I knew on which guitar he picked for the recording. (He has about a dozen guitars, all with different tones.) My system gave about 90% of the detail level of the actual guitar being played. The tonality was right, the perspective was right, the image projected was same size as the real guitar. The recording proved to be high fidelity, giving me 90% of the original sound. Now, this was through a heavily modded Dynaco stereo 70 - Fostex Voigt pipes - heavily hot-rodded purist all-silver PAS3 preamp - heavily modded Micromega Stage 3 CD player system - al DIY cabling including PCs (all DIY, yours truly).
The "High End" comparison was BAT and Wilson speakers, and I forgot which very high end CD player & transport & MIT cabling - it was SOTA at that time, and the league of the most expensive High End one could put together in that year. What I heard was very striking, and also a tremendous blow to the head forcing a MAJOR reality check and reorientation of my goals. Yes, there was a jump in detail level, but it did not sound anymore like listening to my guitar from the listeners position. It sounded as if I stuck my head within one foot of the guitar (yes, I have done such experimentation with real guitars). The tonal balance was totally askew, and I did not recognize my guitar anymore. If I was asked to tell which of his guitars he played the recording, I could not have guessed it because it sounded like none of his guitars. And the closest pick would have been a guitar that had a distinctly different tone.
So, while it was evident to all that the HE system in question provided a much higher resolution / detail level, it was also obvious that it completely failed at delivering both the tonality and the perspective / spatial balance, and in general, the EXPERIENCE of the recorded actual guitar.
This experience taught me that High End does not necessarily equals High Fidelity.
Since then, I’ve been investigating what is the difference between "High End" approach and "High Fidelity" which we could call "Reality" or "Real World Audio" (hence my moniker.... LOL.)
The key components necessary to provide High Fidelity AND high detail level: no feedback, efficient loudspeakers, as short signal path as possible. The more we deviate from this path, the easier it gets to get ultra-detail&freq range &SPL but at the price of the tonal balance.
To me, tonal balance is essential, and in my experience is the singular parameter that makes or breaks High End to behave as a show host or the translator of reality.
I believe that the best system is the one you can be content with. That said, I would suggest, generally speaking that as an electronics technician who has worked on older audio, video, analog, and now primarily digital gear, that my rule is GIGO, garbage in, garbage out. No speakers can correct for lacking information. That said, it’s a GENERAL rule, if it pleases you, enjoy. I only bring this up for others because it is a general rule in electronics.
The main problem people seem to have with the pursuit of good sound is when to stop. Many do find a happy level that satisfies them and stop buying gear, but many others seem driven to continue obsessing and spending money endlessly.
I am a type 1 - I reached a point where any 'improvements were trivial and settled in to enjoy my systems. I will say that the type 2 relentless upgraders are handy for us type 1 people - they are a ready source of pre-owned gear at decent prices.
I used the VCap ODAMS for the crossover mod. In fact I use those caps for a lot of my mods. They are great for both crossovers and circuits. Always get a nice positive move forward. If you already have caps that's great, but just an FYI.
There's a saying in sports .. stay out of other people's pockets! I'm always tickled at how passionate folks get about what other people spend on their enjoyment. The speed limit is 55 mph, that doesn't stop me from driving a performance car. Enjoy your Prius but don't throw shade at the Porsche owner.
From what I learned , that we all chase the sound , we listen to the speakers , amplifiers , sources , cables and all of the above , the most important is , that we forget about the music . Most of us neglect the best recordings because It does not sound right .At work I listen to all recordings from a cheap sound bar and I feel that I have more appreciation for the music , I feel like I focus more on composition than on the quality of the sound .
Every time I make a purchase "OK, done. I've got what I need for a GOOD LONG TIME, probably will never buy another thing". Nope. Never happens. Audioholics Anonymous? Let's meet in the church basement.
Absolutely on board with #1-6 related to your Cornwall performance mods. I like to add a few more:
7) replace all internal cabling with the same (or better) cabling used from the amplifier to speaker terminals.
8) bypass PC traces on crossover board and replace with point-to-point wiring (same quality as above)
9) remove all crimped-on connectors/spades and direct silver-solder to raw driver lugs (preferably at the point where the tinsel lead connects to the lug) and input terminals.
This will allow the Cornwalls to take on more of the character of a "polite British loudspeaker" while actually increasing the dynamic impact that the "big Klipsch's" are famous for.
@waytoomuchstuff+1. 8 and 9 are just two of the extensive mods I've done to my Klipschorns, upgrading over SonicCaps certainly worthwhile. Tractrix horns and John Allen A-55G mid driver also very nice!
With Klipsch Heritage one needn't spend a fortune on amplification, for the Khorns a nice little 2a3 could do a fine job. 300B's also don't have to be most expensive of amps.
DIY modded Klipsch Heritage and low power SET would make basis for system with top line sound at budget price.
There is high end sound and there are high end products. Two different things.
Very well said !
I myself distinguish very precisely between gear upgrade related to high end products and acoustic control related to high end sound quality...
You can have high end products with a not so well high end sound quality, but you can also have high end sound quality with relatively low cost components which had a relatively basic good design for sure...
Price tag is a red herring ... Acoustic is the key....
I do agree that high end can be fickle especially on less than perfect recordings. I have a set that sounds very very good on any damn thing. Have another set that sounds amazing with some recordings and dull and messy with not so well recorded material.
If you have reached your destination in this hobby, congratulations. I will more than likely never reach a destination. For me,that’s part of the enjoyment. I don’t find it frustrating,I find it invigorating.
Adequation and synergy between the CHOSEN audio system and the room is the destination...
Chasing gear without adapting acoustically the room for the system does not preclude the enjoyment of spending money for sure , but upgrading gear is not ACOUSTIC experience...It is acoustic ignorance if upgrading is done for the sake of changing the pain’s place or the "tasted" colors...Sorry....
My definition of the journey is not the same as you...
The better ratio of S.Q. / cost for listening MUSIC....Thats all....
A high end sound which is not created by a high end system but by acoustic at peanuts cost...This is my journey...
Is it no an interesting journey?
I prefer that to meaningless upgrade because ignorance of basic acoustic...
Audio is acoustic FIRST and electronic engineering second...not the reverse...Guess why?
😁😊
If you have reached your destination in this hobby, congratulations. I will more than likely never reach a destination. For me,that’s part of the enjoyment. I don’t find it frustrating,I find it invigorating.
In my opinion,all things regarding sound reproduction matter. Especially the room. Why did you think I was only speaking about gear? I enjoy trying different ways to couple,decouple, isolate components. Therefore,until I stop enjoying the differences these things make,I will probably not reach my destination. Have you reached yours? Are you done experimenting with different ideas? If someone has reached their endgame,that’s awesome. This is a hobby. Something to be enjoyable,and bring some pleasure in this life. People have different experiences and different goals.
Enjoy the music,
You are very right our journey is specific to ourself...Thanks to remind me that, i need it sometimes being a bit too passionnate and centered on myself...
But a remark:
The audio journey is defined by precise acoustical and psycho-acoustical criteria of experience, TIMBRE being one of the most important, dynamic, imaging and soundstaging, listener envelopment and some other one; all these factors are perfectly defined SCIENTIFIC acoustic experience on which we can increase our control with acoustic experiments OR NOT...
Playing by changing components for the sake of changing components is fun yes but could not replace the power of transformation of acoustic experiments...
I dont enjoy myself the difference but i prefer to enjoy at the end music toself, BUT with no frustation about any aspect of sound in my room/system... Then i dont need any change ....
My best to you....
In my opinion,all things regarding sound reproduction matter. Especially the room. Why did you think I was only speaking about gear? I enjoy trying different ways to couple,decouple, isolate components. Therefore,until I stop enjoying the differences these things make,I will probably not reach my destination. Have you reached yours? Are you done experimenting with different ideas? If someone has reached their endgame,that’s awesome. This is a hobby. Something to be enjoyable,and bring some pleasure in this life. People have different experiences and different goals.
Enjoy the music,
Here’s an honest look at myself: I appreciate good sound. I don’t have any kind of engineering background. Some acoustic things I understand,however,many I don’t. I can hear the end result,but I can’t tell you how to achieve that. You on the other hand, understand the technical aspects of sound. How one thing effects another. You can apply that knowledge and fabricate devices to work towards better acoustics. Sometimes,people like me have to pull out the old wallet to get there. Others are content with everything around them. That’s kool and the gang! I always looked at audio as a hobby, good music,good sound. Some jump into a rabbit hole,some don’t.
I look at this like hi performance cars. All the horsepower in the world is useless,if you can’t put it to the ground. I’m getting to the point where I’m trying to put that power to the ground,but I’ll probably always be chasing more.
I just returned my friends KEF R3’s and in turn he lent me a pair of PMC TB2’s while I wait to payoff the Gentleman with the Cornwall IV’s and pick them up in 3 weeks.
Anyone who says nearfield Studio Monitors can’t be repurposed as Home Speakers is f.o.s. It’s just Speaker drivers and a crossover in a box ! In these little boxes, there’s a Transmission Line. So Bass is limited by design and I actually had to add a mild boost above 10kHz and a large boost below 100Hz. They sound very very three dimensional but lack the Bass extension of the R3’s.
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