Next Best Upgrade for Tidal MQA?
@jjss49 @cycles2 and others: I pulled the trigger on a Mytek Manhattan II with network card. The folks at Mytek were nice enough to give me a fair trade in on my Liberty + apply another promo to help bring the price down. I'm probably still within a reasonable burn in period, so there may be more improvements to the sound, but I'm very pleased with the results, AND... I've got to say, Qobuz hi-res is pretty amazing. I thought I was hearing about all of the detail there was to hear, but some of the hi-res tracks have brought new sounds to songs that I am extremely familiar with and that I did not know existed before. Doobie Brothers' "Black Water" and Metallica's "Turn the Page" are just a couple of examples. The Mytek has a great uncolored and natural sound with great separation amongst instruments and singers in harmony. At times I get that "the singer is in the room" quality, and frequently feel like I'm there at the recording booth. All in all, I'm very pleased and will (mostly) be standing pat for a while to just sit back an enjoy the music. I plan to upgrade my speaker cables and some interconnects to Tellurium Q Black II's - will see what that goes, and may also grab a miniDSP so that I can calibrate for the room when using the Mytek as preamp/source. I'll report back again... Thanks to everyone for the help and feedback. Sometime down the road I still may opt to insert a separate preamp... the adventure continues! |
@jnehma1 thanks for the follow up. It may not be apples to apples, but seems close enough for general discussion purposes. And, to be clear, I was focusing on the 3400 vs Manhattan II, not the 1120 (which I agree would not be fair). The Manhattan II can include a network card to make it a preamp/DAC/streamer. I’ve been offered a great deal on one that I think I’m going to take. Replaces my DAC, preamp, and streamer in one box. Later, if I want to warm it up further, I can go separate tube amp. Seems to make the most sense to me. If I do pull the trigger I will report back. |
@bruxesq That Mytek DAC is $6k on its own so not even close to a valid comparison against an integrated amp / DAC / streamer / room correction device for $6,500, much less the $2k TDAI-1120. And the room correction, depending on your space, could make a much bigger difference than the DAC. To top it off, that guy you’re talking about ONLY used the Lyngdorf as a DAC. That’s like buying a BMW to use as a heater for your garage. Of course the Manhattan sounded better. What streamer, preamp, and amp was that guy using? I bet they cost more than the $500 price difference between the Manhattan DAC and the Lyngdorf that does it all but was (crazily) used only as a DAC. I haven’t tried the Manhattan to compare but I’ve got the 3400 and I find it to be absolutely amazing. It’s probably the only technologically advanced device I own that just works all the time and does everything I need. It also sounds incredible and puts out 200w into 8 ohms or 400 into 4 ohms. If you went with the 3400 you could also sell your Parasound... |
@jnehma1 Thanks for the suggestion. Given that the TDAI-1120 would replace my DAC, Streamer, and 2 channel Amp (and I could sell all 3 to mitigate costs) - I started researching the TDAI-3400 (the bigger bigger brother in the series). Found interesting comments by the OP in this thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/lyngdorf-tdai-3400?page=3 OP said he moved on to a MyTek Manhattan II DAC after living with the Lyngdorf for a year. His quote was that the upgrade in sound to the MyTek was “profound” and that a stand alone streamer sounded better. That gives me a lot of pause. |
@bruxesq here's a perhaps slightly out of the box possibility. Check out the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120. That will give you an integrated amp with home theater bypass, streaming, and room correction all in one device for about $2k. You could biamp your speakers by running the preout to your Parasound and sell the Node and DAC. |
@anzaanimalclinic Appreciate the suggestions. However, the Innuos Zen Mini is really overkill for my situation. I have no need for a CD ripper or onboard storage. I also have no need for Roon as long as the network streamer can stream Tidal directly. Seems like I would be paying for a lot of features I won’t use and have no present interest in getting into. Again, I pretty much exclusively stream Tidal (and Tidal MQA when available). I have no digital or physical media collection whatsoever, other than some legacy SACD/DVD-A (that I may sometime deal with later through my Oppo 203). If the network streamer is the single next best upgrade, I need to find one that is more focused on what I do. |
I don't know if this has been mentioned but John Darko posted this over at his site:https://darko.audio/2020/10/tidal-connect-who-what-why/ It goes into relating how Tidal is now going to operate like Spotify Connect and all the manufacturers that will or do carry it. All the best, Nonoise |
@richdirector I have it connected via optical right now and the passthrough is enabled so that the internal DAC in the Node 2i is bypassed. My MyTek Liberty DAC is MQA-certified. Regardless, I have read elsewhere that the Note 2i will still only pass through at 96khz. @paulcreed Thanks for the suggestions. @snackeyp Thanks for the suggestions, although I struggle to believe that the streamer is the single, next-best, upgrade versus the Pre-amp. As of now, all the Node 2i does is act as a digital source, it is not doing the digital-to-analog conversion. |
It seems to me the weak link in your system is the BluSound Node. I would look into a new server/streamer. Innuous Zen or Zenith will be a significant upgrade over the Node. After that you can consider a DAC upgrade but the DAC you have now is very good so I would start with the server and go from there. Other components also seem decent. Good luck! |
Here are preamp, streamer and dac to check out or read up on. Someone mentioned the Schmitt Freya which runs 6sn7 tubes is a great suggestion. Also mentioned was PS Audio. I owned a PS audio PCA-2 preamp with outboard power supply and thought it sounded better than many tube amps I've owned including BAT, Bruce Moore, Audio Research plus others. I think the ps audio stuff sounds like tubes it is a little colored in a good way. For a dac check out chord qutest, RME adi2, Orchid, Denafrips, Musical paradise. Streamer an old Auralic Aries mini or Aries or lumin mini would all be nice. If you going to spend your hard earned money take your time. |
@bruxesq From digital coax or optical When streaming MQA content there are 3 unfolds which must occur to receive fully rendered 192khz/24-bit MQA. The first of these unfolds is handled by the BluOS app and will output up to 96khz/24-bit audio. The next 2 unfolds are handled by the internal DAC of the Node to provide 192khz/24-bit audio. If you have an MQA certified DAC connected to your Node 2i, you can enable this MQA External DAC option to have MQA content pass through the Node 2i untouched and allow your external DAC to handle all 3 of these unfolds. As for upgrade.. Good preamp makes difference but not sure inbuilt dac gives best result or future potential. I would say a seperate might be more sensible choice |
@jji666 Haha, thanks! It seemed obvious to me that the preamp was the way to go, but wanted the benefit of the forum's collective knowledge and experience. I think I'm down to 3 options: (1) Brooklyn Bridge (2) Parasound JC2 (3) Prima Luna EVO 400 RE: the Brooklyn Bridge - this would replace my Liberty/Node 2i. It would be the next step up as far as ESS DAC. I am also unsure that the Node 2i can pass a 192khz MQA file through to the DAC right now - does anyone know? I've read in places that it is limited to 96khz, so perhaps I would also benefit from the higher quality MQA unfold with the Brooklyn Bridge vs. other Preamp options? |
Such agendas! You have a listener using an AVR as a preamp asking for the obvious upgrade path and people are suggesting network tweaks, cable upgrades, their favorite DACs. Come on people! The obvious upgrade is a preamp, as the sane posters have suggested. Reasoning: the preamp in the AVR is tuned specifically to the amps in it. It may sound OK as a preamp, but it’s intended to be mated with the amps in the AVR. Manufacturers do not invest as much in making the preamp section of an integrated amp work with many different amps, because they are together. The bypass is great as a convenience, but it’s not intended go give the requisite synergy with just any amp. Get a real preamp and see how that sounds! |
Someone messaged me about bluesound node 2i upgrades.... In UK fidelity audio do this... https://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/bluesound-node-2--2i-336-c.asp I went for mid upgrade but have been mightily impressed |
@jjss49 yep, will test it out myself, just interesting to see the comments from the “professional” reviewers. @invalid I am 100% with you - just need to decide what route to take. I still might mess with a device that cleans up the network though - they are relatively inexpensive. That Uptone device has a generous return policy - seems like a no brainer to give it a shot. |
https://www.whathifi.com/us/qobuz/review https://uk.pcmag.com/services-players/127046/qobuz Both fairly recent reviews that tip toward Tidal as having better sound quality than Qobuz... |
@cycles2 @fastfreight @jjss49 Thanks all for the comments. RE: Qobuz - I’m not anti-Qobuz in any way, and I’m not wedded to MQA for all time. I did ensure that my streamer and DAC could properly handle MQA, but would not be the end of the world to switch. That being said, I do enjoy most of the Tidal Masters I listen to and the goal here was to improve the sound quality from my existing service. I’ll sign up for Qobuz and provide some feedback when I can, but I have serious doubts that it will blow Tidal MQA out of the water. Could it be better? Sure! But, even if I made the switch, I’d be looking for the next best hardware upgrade, which (again) is the focus here. |
@bruxesq i will chime in here, briefly with my 2 cents imho qobuz is worth a trial - i believe they give 30 day free tidal masters is excellent, know you have made investment in mqa via the mytek, i can easily live with it and be quite happy if quboz did not exist but many audiophiles do prefer quboz (i would say a majority, like maybe 60-70% if i were to estimate) - to me it has a slightly more ’solid’ sound than tidal - tidal is a tiny bit more phasey/processed in direct comparison so as you pursue better sound and system improvement i think it is worth a listen on your part (AFTER you get that proper linestage in... :) ) |
Hi bruxesq,, Based on your: I’m generally happy with the sound, but always chasing the cleaner, clearer, better separation, more dynamic, more lifelike... comments is sounds more like my taste and that is not tube gear. I think tube gear is better than bad SS stuff, but some SS stuff is sooo good in all the things you mention. I think the Parasound is good and I have heard it. I had PS Audio gear which is hybrid tube. Nice and warm and sweet. But to me any AudiNet Preamp, sounds much better. I started with the Pre 1 G3 and it was a big improvement in clarity, soundstage, definition. Used for 4000 easy GTT Audio...now I moved up to the Pre G2 and oh my...but much more. No one will ever agree, tubes or SS. It is a preference. I prefer clear and detailed but not harsh or fatiguing. |
@bruxesq Actually my reply was spot on to your request to improve the sound quality of your system. I was a TIDA user for 2 years and thought MQA was terrific until I heard the same tracks in hi-rez on Qobuz. That's why so many of us ex-TIDAL users switched from TIDAL to Qobuz and aren't switching back. It's not subjective, hi-rez just sounds better than MQA. Besides I think you replied that TIDAL doesn't contain Metallica titles. Qobuz has an extensive Metallica collection, most in hi-rez. Seems like the real issue is you want to do some kind of system upgrade, which bites all of us from time to time. An upgrade to a Mytek Brooklyn Bridge isn't a significant upgrade. I'm afraid you're going to have to spend approx $10k for a Lumin X1 or a pre-owned dCS Bartok to experience a jaw dropping upgrade. |
I have apogee duetta 2 speakers, a krell amp and a bluesound node 2, I used a marantz sr7007 for a preamp and then an adcom preamp both sounded really bad harsh and not detailed. I bought a tube preamp and now I have exactly what you described, the sound is clearer more detailed and voices have a more human sound to them. |
@dfansler - thank you very much for the response! The Brooklyn Bridge was on my list already as an alternative and would make a lot of sense. This tube preamp concept is new to me and is intriguing. I didn’t articulate very well what I’m hoping to achieve - I suppose “clearer” is a bad description. I remember demoing (for fun) some Tannoy Kingdoms that were $80K backed by probably $150K in electronics (I forget now the specifics). When the dealer played some sample Digital tracks, listening with my eyes closed, I could have honestly said the singer was in the room. It was astonishing. I want to continue to build toward that experience. The voice was solid, hovering stable in the room, natural, believable... If a tube preamp gets me a step closer to that, I’m all in. |
I've run my KEF LS50 speakers off some similar gear with Tidal MQA as a primary source. I still have my Mytek Liberty DAC. I traded in my Mytek Brooklyn for a Manhattan I. The upgrade differences in those three DACs was quite a bit. I also upgraded my A21 to a JC5, which was a noticable but smaller difference. I agree with several others here. The weak point in the chain is the AVR and you should remove it from the signal chain. Any preamp with an HT bypass probably meets what you want. Note that a Brooklyn Bridge if you like the Mytek sound and to keep MQA ability would not only be an upgrade for the DAC portion compared to a Liberty, but it is also a competent preamp. It has both a bypass mode and a good sounding analog volume control option which the Liberty lacks. So you would not need to purchase a separate preamp. I took that route myself and was quite happy with the decision. I also sometimes use subwoofers with the KEFs. If you want to integrate those for stereo listening better, then you can add some room control ability which has also been suggested. But that's a completely different rabit hole... I am not sure a tube preamp fits your request for a 'clearer' sound. A tube preamp creates distortion by producing harmonics. We generally consider even harmonics as pleasant sounding. So if you are looking for 'warmth' then that's a good description of tubes. If you are looking for 'clean' then tubes may be the wrong route. You gotta just go listen to some preamps and get an idea of what you want. Or buy a Schiit Freya +, it is pretty cheap and has tubes, solid state, and passive modes so you can switch between all three methods. "Bypass" would be achieved by going passive and turning the volume up all the way. Best of luck. |
@bruxesq Again with my caveat that I haven't tried Dirac, everything I've read claims that Dirac and RoomPerfect are in another galaxy versus Audyssey. I've used regular Audyssey and it definitely doesn't compare in any way with RoomPerfect, but no experience with XT 32. But as you said, the MiniDSPs are cheap so if I was in your shoes I'd give it a shot to find out. If nothing else, it'll be a fun and informative experiment. Back wall (technically called front wall) is exactly how I've done it. I have built-in bookshelves sunk into the wall behind my speakers and they help a ton with the acoustics AND aesthetics of the space. |
@jnehma1 I think you're right about the configuration, but would you expect DIRAC to be that much better than Audyssey XT 32? That's what the Marantz includes, which I believe is (or at least was) the highest level of Audyssey. That being said, miniDSP's are cheap... I agree on physical room treatments. The only ones I would consider is back reflections on the back wall behind the speakers, if they were not obtrusive. The heavy curtains on the one adjacent wall should be good for absorption, other than that, the space is open for 40 feet in each direction - perhaps that isn't all that bad acoustically-speaking, other than needing to have the oomph to fill the space. |
@bruxesq I've not used a MiniDSP but I believe you could put one in between your receiver and Parasound amp. It will digitize the incoming analog signal from your pre-outs, perform DIRAC processing to correct the room issues, then spit out an analog signal to your Parasound. That will give you room correction for your stereo speakers. I have heard Dirac can bring great results but have never tried it myself. Personally I have experience with RoomPerfect since I own a Lyngdorf amp, and it brings very, very positive results. As far as physical room treatments, they are a 100% no go, not only from my wife but also from me. I don't want panels all over my living space. Instead, we have two bookshelves loaded with books, which I have intentionally staggered their depths and therefore created both a diffuser and absorber, since the soft books help absorb some sound and the harder ones at various depths/angles help deflect it. Something like that might be a living room friendly option for you. Either way, I still say room correction software is the way you want to go. |
@calieng: thanks for the feedback. I guess my real question is: is a new streamer really going to make more of a difference than a new preamp? The wife is only going to let me do so many upgrades at a time :) @photomax: have not tried Qobuz yet as I've bee generally very happy with Tidal (minus the lack of Metallica) @jnehma1 @dsnyder0cnn: unfortunately, my system has to do double duty (hifi and home theater) all in an open concept shared living area. I don't think I have much opportunity for room treatment (there is only the wall behind the speakers and a wall with heavy curtains to the side). As for room correction, I have run Audyssey, but haven't gotten into the REW/Dirac level of detail. I have briefly looked at MiniDSP before, how does that integrate with what I've got? |
Or one word: Room You have not said much about your listening space (or, perhaps I missed it), but if you send the folks at ASC a MATT recording, they can tell you what frequencies are lacking articulation and design a solution that will dramatically improve the dynamics and resolution of your system. Chances are that the gear you already own has a lot more potential than what you are hearing. https://www.acousticsciences.com/matt |
Depending on your budget I would start with the following If you have not already done so - Upgrade your coax connection from the DAC to your Preamp/component system. You will be amazed at what an improvement in the sound you will get. Pangea Audio Premier XL Digital Cable with Cardas Copper - is a good option for the money. Another option is to upgrade your DAC to one with a newer DAC chipset for example - the auralic altair g1 ( with the ESS 9038Q2M chipset) - would replace the Node 2i and the mytec DAC. |
I had an Onkyo AV pre that I replaced with the Parasound JC2BP. I think it made a huge difference in opening up the music for me. I'm guessing you are looking at the JC2BP not just for the sound quality but also for the bypass feature so you can still use the Marantz for surround. Since I got the Curl pre I don't listen to the surround system any more. I also switched from VTL tube amps to a used pair of the JC1 monos. That was a nice upgrade also but it didn't make as much of a difference as the pre did. |
