Do I REALLY need preamp and what do I upgrade the amp too?

I decided to use my Aurender A20 as my pre and spend most of my budget on a Luxman M10X. The volume control is not as precise as when using a preamp plus I do miss the Loudness functions of my last  integrated amp.

I do think I made the correct choice given my budget at the time. I tried a Mac tube preamp but it didn’t seem to improve the SQ but maybe a little more experience would have made a difference.

I plan to try a couple more pre amps before I completely decide to go without one. 

Tubes are an acquired expense. If you can't think of a reason for needing a preamp it is safe to say you don't..

I have a different setup to yours of course, but in my experience, a high-end pre adds magic, smooths out edges, sweetens midrange and anchors the bass. Of course everything is synergistic, right combo of tubes amps, the pre, source and cables, but in my system, the pre is a must.

Does it sound great without a pre? Yes, but it sounds, in my attempt at something meaningful, about 12% better.

Maybe get something from somewhere that has a long return window and low restocking fee and audition some stuff.

T

You have a vaulted ceiling, have you measured your in room FR? I would not drop $ on gear if you don't have the response curve you want in that room. You can hang acoustic clouds to offset the ceiling reflections. 

Typically running a DAC right into an amp will give you great clarity but be drained of the soul… the musicality. As many of us experienced audiophile say the preamp is the heart of the system, where the magic comes from. High quality sound can be gained by direct connection, but it is incredibly difficult (component matching) and expensive to do.

My rule of thumb for a well balanced optimal system the investment level of all the electronics is roughly the same… Streamer = DAC = Preamp = Amp. If I was going to put extra on something, my first choice is the preamp. A regular integrated amp’s investment is divided by two… since it is performing two functions.

I would look at your system this way, upgrading each component with a target level in mind. Typically I would start with the preamp.

@ghdprentice 

Typically I would start with the preamp.

Before calibrating the room or in order to calibrate the room? (like getting a preamp with dsp)

Thanks everyone for the feedback.   I think the room is the best place to start.

BTW, is there a pre with DSP available other the from miniDSP?  No issue with that one just looking for variety :-)

Regards-

@sholladay Wrote:

BTW, is there a pre with DSP available other the from miniDSP?

See below Pre-4 Preamp:

Mike

https://www.deqx.com/products/#features

not surprised at the op’s findings -- rotel is mid tier... will not bring the best sonics (that is why their higher line called michi exists)

a truly great preamp will result in great sound, arguably better than running a system without one

but even a decent preamp, and certainly a mediocre one, will detract from the purity of sound compared to none at all...

whether any particular volume controlled dac will sound better into any specific power amp relative to having a line stage in between cannot possibly be generalized... the specifics will drive the outcome, specifically

-- the nature of volume control in the dac, and where in the operating range the dac volume control operates in normal use

-- the output stage of the dac, its ability to drive the amp

-- the input stage of the receiving amplififer and how well it mates with the dac (or pre) feeding it

Thanks again for all the feedback, very valuable and appreciated.

@kota1 especially great feedback and a path I had not yet considered.

The ML Unison preamp/streamer is only $199 on sale from the original $599. You could connect it to your outboard DAC via toslink, run ARC, and get a nice before and after graph of your room. You can run quobuz from the playfi app on your phone. You can connect additional sources into the Unison and they will also benefit from ARC and your DAC. 

Mikey on preamps

Audiogon is rejecting my posts, so I'll post in pieces. 

Like you'll I'll soon focus on whether I believe a preamp is necessary for my system. Mikey, in the video above, argues that preamps aren't economical for high-end all-digital systems--better so spend that money on other equipment. 

Since you only stream this is what I would do for gear. Sell the following:

• Rotel RC-1590MKII

• Rotel RB-1582 MkII

• Gustard DAC-X26 Pro (I owned this and liked it)

• 2x AQ Colombia RCA interconnects

Do not use your MacMini direct to your DAC. Use a streamer using fibre optical to kill the analog noise before the DAC. Get a network switch with a SFP fibre cage and use fibre optical for streaming.

Buy the PeachTree GAN1 "dac+amp+preamp". You can get the BluSound bundle they sell or use what I use, which I would think is much better. A Sonore OpticalRendu streamer + Sonore USB-2-SPDIF convertor ($500). Call or email Sonore first to see if the OpticalRendu is compatible with the Audirvana you use. I forgot what Audrivana is.

The OpticalRendu is being replaced with a new version this Fall. A few units are now showing up in the used market. I bought a second unit for $700 last week to pair with my PeachTree GAN1. I will use it as a killer headphone amp.

The Peachtree GAN1 in stock form ($1500) maybe better than what you currently have. However, getting it modded by Tweakaudio.com to what I have takes the sound to amazing levels (mod $500). I sold $15K of gear after deciding to go streaming only with the modded GAN1 in the office. Unfortunately, I missed my 2 tuners for my morning dose of KCRW FM. So, I have relegated the modded GAN1 for headphone only duty for my backyard!

I have a CODA #16 amp + Schitt Yggi+ LM DAC + Holo Serene preamp which is incredible (can bring you to tears), the modded GAN1 is almost as good as that. The reason is that so much circuitry and cables are eliminated with the GAN1 approach. Just stunning and not just for the price.

Part II of what you could do is DSP. I am not sure about Audirvana but ROON does support the following software-based DSP, Convolution Filters.

Mitch Barnett can remotely measure your room and provide customized Convolution Filters for your gear, room, and seating position ($700). The dude is a DSP genius.

Digital Room Calibration Services, Convolvers, Headphone Filtersets (accuratesound.ca)

The filters would run on the MacMini. The Convolution filters can be as complex as you need. Ask yourself what is more powerful, your MacMini, or any audio component ever built.

BTW - put a Holo Serene or a Benchmark LA4 preamp in front of the Gustard (2 super quiet preamps). I owned the Gustard X26 Pro before. There is no comparison. The volume on the X26 Pro is minor league.

BTW2 - I just noticed you had a sub. In that case, the BluSound streamer is what you need and not the OpticalRendu (which sounds better).