I recently did a shoot out of three DACs using my Hint6 + routing each of the other DACs to analog input on the Hint6:
(1) Hint6: ESS Sabre32 -- Integrated
(2) SMSL M500: ES9038PRO D/A ~$400
(3) Khadas ToneBoard(v1): ESS ES9038Q2M - ~$99
I played the same song passages on Amazon Music and was able to cycle through each Hint6 input corresponding to each DAC.
The result? Very small difference in terms of rendering. Maybe a more open sound stage with better overall balance using the Hint6 DAC. The Khadas was more bass / midrange pronounced w/ a more narrow soundstage. However, I wouldn't suggest that any were head-and-shoulders "better" over the others. In fact, they were all pretty decent with only small nuances (certainly not worth the price differences.
I decided to keep the Khadas for my small headphone listening area.
But it got me thinking - how much would one have to spend to realize an exponential difference in quality? Is the Khadas that good, or is DAC technology differences more nuanced than I originally thought (meaning, we're paying 10x for only 5% better).
Does that sound silly? This whole thread is silly.
DAC chips are so good today, that you can make a DAC for a few hundred dollars that is better than human hearing will ever be. Add another few hundred dollars and you can isolate that from any noise source. Add in a low volume premium and for under $1,000 you can have something perfect.
Now if you want something that is not perfect, that will cost you big bugs, because then you are paying for art, not reproduction.
Are we supposed to take people seriously that compare highly distorting tube outputs to no distortion solid state? Seems silly. Changing a setting on a DAC for the output filter and a multi-thousand $$ DAC will create more difference between it and itself than it will with similar filter setting between it and a much cheaper DAC.
You are asking a group of people for an opinion who have never compared without looking at whats playing, without ensuring the volume is exactly the same, or learning what the filters do and why they may impart a sound, hence DO sound different, and who think NOS is the be-all, when it is just a noise mess, but sure it does sound different.
Good luck on your quest, but these are not the droids you are looking for ... I mean the answer to the question you seek.
Diminishing returns applies to all components in the audio chain. Where you stop is up to you. A small difference can be a very significant difference, or not.
@martinmanI also suspect that Amazon HD in general isn't up to par with Qobuz, but I'd suggest playing music on Amazon via a Qobuz trial that there's clarity on what the provenance of the recording is. Rumors abound of services upsampling redbook masters to higher bitrates and marketing them as hi-rez. If tracks you're testing with are subject to such shenanigans, that would muddy the waters about the dacs.
You could also try downloading free known superb recordings from the labels 2L or Blue Coast and see if you hear the same results comparing the DACs. Cheers,
My experiences have been in the $150, $500, $1,500 and $3,500 realm and the largest quality jumps to my ears were had at the $150-$500 (65% sound improvement), then most notably at the $1,500-$3,500 (85% sound improvement). Moving between $500-$1,500 DAC’s I experienced maybe a 15% improvement which was underwhelming pressing me onward and upward.
Presently I’m really enjoying my Musetec MH-DA005, the clarity, micro-dynamics and holographic soundstage are incredible.
I didn’t say there’s no difference in sound quality. I said once a DAC has reached a certain point they will basically sound the same.
No. Just...no. That’s like saying once amps reach a certain point there’s no difference. That’s just stupid. There are many different architectures in DACs just as with amps, and they all have their own sound characteristics. This is just an ignorant statement.
@arafiq I also have the Hint 6 and am using it's DAC- the ESS Sabre32. I am still fairly new to higher end audio and I am going to dedicate myself to digital. I am streaming Qobuz hardwired through a Bluesound Node 2i. My speakers are Dali Opticon 8. I prefer the Parasounds DAC much more than the BS Node DAC by a wide margin.
No matter how much I read I have been unable to decipher what makes one DAC better than another. I understand the concept of things that cost more generally tend to do so because they are better but in the case of DACs what are the metrics? What am I looking for spec wise? Specs matter more to me than name. Also out of the DACs you named and are using which do you prefer?
I didn't say there's no difference in sound quality. I said once a DAC has reached a certain point they will basically sound the same. For instance a MHTD Pagoda injects enough distortion to have a sound signature. The problem with the DACs all sound different crowd is they have never controlled for bias or level matched properly. I have listened to a lot of DACs , some fairly cheap, some expensive and one thing I've learned over the years is price does not necessarily equal performance.
I currently have access to four DACs in my home -- I own 3 and have the fourth one as a loaner courtesy of a wonderful friend.
DAC 1 -- Bluesound Node 2i (owned for more about 2 years)
DAC 2 -- Audio Mirror Tubadour III (non-SE version; owned for 1.5 years)
DAC 3 -- Luxman DA-06 (owned for 1.5 years)
DAC 4 -- T+A DAC 200 (loaner)
Please don’t listen to anyone who says there’s no difference in sound quality. There is absolutely a vast difference between DACs at different price points. The higher end DACs give you a wider soundstage, more air around instruments, better tone and timber, and most importantly a significantly darker background (compared to lower priced DACs) that results in a more detailed resolution. The better DACs also provide a sense of ease where the music just flows like liquid.
The problem is that most of the ’it all sounds the same’ crowd is too busy reading graphs and charts, and never bother to actually listen to some of the better DACs in the market. I can tell you that the differences I mentioned are not subtle at all. You will immediately hear the differences provided the rest of your gear is up to the task.
Anyway, my assumption going into this test was that a 24/192 source is good enough - no matter if it's AmazonHD or Qobuz... amirite?
Well, if memory serves that’s not what Steve found. I kinda doubt Amazon is delivering 100% HD, but it’s free to try Qobuz so why not just see for yourself?
If you are in the NYC area please feel free to bring your DAC over to are listening room to see if you can hear a difference compared to a DHT based tubed DAC any time.
@soix - I 100% agree that source content matters, but do you hear a difference between Qobuz 24/192 and AmazonHD 24/192? (Legit question)
@fuzztone- I don't have another choice for streaming (well, maybe an iphone, but that's probably not the direction you were going). What should I be using?
BTW, I agree that local / ripped content is the best setup and ultimately minimizes the complexity. But these days, music catalog selection and convenience win... problem is: I can't quite quantify what I'm loosing out on!
Steve Stone did a comparison of the various HD music services and Amazon HD did not fare well. They’re just not there yet. Do a free trial of Qobuz and see for yourself.
Steve takes issue with the HD vs Ultra HD terms and also cites the lack of "Ultra HD" content when compared to Qobuz. They have come quite a long way in terms of content.
Anyway, my assumption going into this test was that a 24/192 source is good enough - no matter if it's AmazonHD or Qobuz... amirite?
He was extremely pleased with the DAC's they got for the original HINT, and felt it was a significant upgrade to the DAC they put in the preamp that went before. Also, the ZDAC was one of the best cheap DACs I've heard. It was really really good, so I'm not surprised you are happy with the performance. :)
I’m always amazed how anyone can hear differences in DACS where even lousy ones will have a SINAD of -85db with background noise in most homes around 30db and the distortion from even great speakers can reach 1% . It’s a miracle on par with Stevie Wonder regaining eyesight, but to each his own.
Steve Stone did a comparison of the various HD music services and Amazon HD did not fare well. They’re just not there yet. Do a free trial of Qobuz and see for yourself.
Once they hit a certain SINAD all DACs do sound basically the same in they don’t contribute to the overall distortion of the system. If in doubt then do a few ABX tests.
I have the $99 Khadas KTB. Sounds excellent in my system. I doubt spending 10 - 20 X $$$$ will yield better sound! The ESS ES9038 chip set is a formidable device!
op i would agree that kef ls50’s driven by your hint should be sufficiently resolving to hear differences amongst dacs - do try hi-res streams from tidal or qobuz or downloaded ones - recording quality does make a huge difference in being able to hear into the music and differentiating gear
and i also agree you should go to the next tier of dacs - denafrips pontus, mhdt, soekris, schiit yggy or gumby and so on... enjoy
To answer a few questions:
Speakers: Kef LS50 w/ dual PSA subwoofer
Speaker Wire: Mogami DIY cables
Integrated: Hint6
AmazonHD: The source content is what they call "Ultra HD" (24/192) and I was able to verify that it was being passed at the highest bitrate.
I think I have a sufficiently capable system to discern any differences. Truth is, I did pickup subtle differences, but again the differences aren’t quite worth the cost of entry (IMO). I also fully expect that my ear just isn’t tuned properly to pickup the differences... Which might be a good thing :)
In most other upgrades: amp, speakers, speaker wire, TT cart, TT upgrades I’m able to pick out something ’better’ whether it’s more detail, lower noise floor,etc. With DACs it’s def. more subtle.
I guess I’m surprised at my observations -- and maybe lesson learned!
My next attempt will be with more capable DACs: Denafrips, Border Patrol, maybe a BiFrost2.
Putting performance tires on a Corolla does not make for a track demon. Now would you deride the performance tires as snake oil since it didn't magically transform your Corolla, which by the way is a great car for daily commuting, into a sports car? Same applies to audio equipment. Nothing lives in a vacuum. Everything is system/synergy dependent.
Every DAC I've listened to has a different sound signature. They are subtle, but easy enough to detect, with the caveat being that the source files are of good quality and your system is up to the task of revealing the differences.
Spending more doesn't always result in "better". Typically for things to cost less there have to be either huge economies of scale (think McDonalds) or compromises made. It's up to you as to what constitutes "good enough".
As to how much you'd have to spend to realize an "exponential" difference in quality", I don't think that's going to happen.
I'd say you learned an important lesson about DACs, price doesn't = performance. You could spend 10x as much and still not hear differences unless the DAC has been purposely built to have a sound signature.
op - you also did not mention your speakers... no idea whether they have sufficient resolution/quality to allow you to hear the differences among the dacs you are attempting to compare
First, you should upgrade to Qobuz for a better quality source that will help you better sort out the difference between DACs. That’s probably part of the reason you had a hard time discerning differences. But yes, differences between DACs are more nuanced than, say, speakers, but they are still important and can dramatically affect the overall sound quality you ultimately achieve. I’d say once you hit the $700 level you start getting into units with more accomplished designs and better parts quality, but that’s a very general guideline.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
