New Speakers ... Can't Stop "Listening"

@tuxedocat If you were asking me what electronics I use with my speakers, I have Rowland amps/pre/dac/psu. Source is Antipodes.

Interesting..however you failed to mention the brand(s) of electronics in your system, Mr Joseph.

@gnason I listened to the Pearl 3s for the first time at AXPONA 2018. Beautiful full sound. I own Perspective speakers and feel comfortable comparing them. Prof has it right; there is no mistaking that the Pearl 3 and Perspective are voiced the same. The Pearl 3s clearly have a deeper tighter bass. And the Pearl 3 seems more holographic, although the small size of the AXPONA room may color this observation. FWIW I run my Perspectives with 2 subs and this setup fills 4000+ cubic feet nicely and provides a very satisfying 25Hz-20KHz experience. When I mentioned to Jeff Joseph that I intended to run the Perspective speakers with stereo subs, he told me I would be getting close to the Pearl 3 experience. Now that I have heard the Pearl 3, I think that assessment is correct. Of course, I'd love to hear Pearl 3s with stereo subs...  

Aolmrd: Olybro - just a bug in your ear, if you are feeling in a larger room that your 3’s are a little light in the bass, I added a JL Audio e110 sub to supplement the very bottom end.  Call it cheating if you like, and I’ve always eschewed the use of subs, but this little guy is amazing.  Lots of reasons to dislike subs, aesthetics being one of them, especially given the sheer beauty of the walnut cabinetry housing the SFs, but sonically, and installed per JLs instructions, the e110 has kicked the whole presentation up yet another notch.  Putting a $1500 sub in between $18k worth of amplification and $13.5k speakers takes a tremendous leap of faith but trust me it works.  One of JLs precepts is: first do no harm. Do not change the characteristics that led you to your mains.  Augmentation not alteration. Just a thought.  

gnason,

Have you considered the JA Perspectives?

Jeff Joseph said he was trying to essentially make a more affordable, and living-room friendly sized Pearl.
In fact he'd mentioned to me that it was in designing and voicing the Perspectives that he'd thought he'd made advances that he'd like to incorporate into the Pearls, hence afterward he made the Pearl "3" version.

I’ve only heard the Pearl 3’s once, but the Perspectives seemed to carry over that type of midrange quality and purity, and sound plenty big for their size.

Joseph Audio definitely makes speakers to die for. I fell in love with a pair of Pearl 3's that I had the opportunity listened to. Immediately, I realized that I had just met my audio soul mate and that there would be no other speaker for me. Unfortunately for my sonic love life, my savings fund towards the $35,000 price tag is only 25% there. I am going to seek out an audition for the Pulsars so I can compare them.  

With so many speakers on the market sounding quite different from one another the question becomes not what sounds the best to any given individual but rather what system more closely represents the original image.   Assuming control of the variables, electronics, cabling, etc., the question becomes how close does any system come to recreating the original live performance, or at least what the recording engineer intended you to hear.  Then we must make the assumption that an accurate recreation of the original image is what the listener will find appealing...which is not necessarily the case.  It is also a mistake to assume that the speaker manufacturer is attempting to develop a speaker that is indeed faithful to the original recording, which is obviously not the case. Perhaps what can be said is that a speaker/system that renders an image approximating the original recording will ultimately be more satisfying with all types of music as well as the soundtrack from a motion picture. Hopefully your "new" sound will continue to please.  If so you've succeeded.    

markmendenhall...I couldn’t agree more with your findings,they match mine to a tee. Oh,and the cavernous soundscape with the highly organic and oh so natural musical/emotional presentation is to die for...just amazing!

Clarionet:  not sure what components were mated with the SF Oly 3's you listened to, but I can share my experience with you - mated with a Pass Labs X250.8 and a First Sound PD III tubed pre amp, the SF's are anything but 'rolled off', nor 'polite' (read:  boring, veiled, uninvolving). Smooth?  Yes!  Musical?  In spades - big time emotional connection with the music. Big sound stage? Absolutely!  Detailed?  No question.  Refined?  Does the Pope wear a funny hat? Uh, yeah, he sorta does (no disrespect). Yes, very refined.  If I have a complaint about my SF Olympica III's its that in my acoustically challenged, oversized listening space the bass can get kinda lost.  In smaller to medium sized rooms the Oly 3 bass is more than up to the task, very satisfying and tuneful, very effective.  These speakers will pin you to your chair and put your head on a swivel, causing you to move your eyes to look at spaces in the huge soundstage from where instruments and vocals erupt.  It's all a matter of personal taste of course, no right or wrong, but give the X250.8 an hour to warm up and I can listen for hours, at almost any volume level, to virtually any (reasonable) music genre and be satisfied.  You want to hear chatter between musicians, and between musicians and patrons on a live jazz recording in between songs?  Check.  You want to hear the slightest drumstick taps on cymbals?  Check.  You want to hear vocalists inhaling their next breath to belt out the next lyric?  Check.  You want to hear the difference between a steel string vs. a nylon string guitar?  Check.  You want to hear whether there are 2 or 3 or 4 back up singers on stage?  Check.  You want to play loudly and rock out?  Check. Sounds like the key to making the Olympica III's sound their best is to mate them with top end, high powered, high current power amplification and a premier pre amplifier.  Works for me!     

clarinetmonster2 said " Hmm. The guy that claims the SF Olympicas are in another league vs the Joseph’s...only if you value rolled off, polite sound based on my experience with the Olympicas."


If you heard the Olympica 3 sounding to polite and rolled off it was not the speakers fault. I would say it was the fault of the equipment used and/or lack of proper set-up. As I stated,the Pulsars are a great little speaker and can create a very musical and involving performance.. but having listened at length to both in my system,I much prefer the 3’s. They just cover all the bases for my needs and my tastes. Of course,as always..horses for courses

+1 @seahheis1.  Two great designers and two great speakers using top components.  Interesting that they come to about the same price point indicating -- despite what others might think -- neither is overcharging given they both sell through dealers.  Free markets do work even in high-end audio. 

Here's the problem...one to two years from now, your system becomes "the norm" and you start looking for a better/bigger this and that.  And when you get the next item into your system, you start listening to all your music again...hearing and enjoying things you never heard before.  It's never ending!

Save your money , Buy a decent tube amp cables from Kimber or purist even there bottom line . Then try the Polk line save the rest of your money and take your girl friend to McDonalds

I would love to hear this JA Seas Kit compared to the Silverline 17 Supreme that uses Dynaudio's top shelf tweet and mid-woof. Two great designers competing at the same price point.   

Hmm. The guy that claims the SF Olympicas are in another league vs the Joseph's...only if you value rolled off, polite sound based on my experience with the Olympicas.

+Ulfberht+

It is an amazing sword made by the Vikings.

Check on YouTube a very interesting documentary about it.

I love my Thiel 2.7s but If I find something even lower profile that I like I'll buy them.

At this point I believe I've narrowed it down to between the Joseph Perspective or possibly the Devore O/96s or 93s.  Two different sounds, but both grab me with their beautiful design, finishes and sound.  (Though I've only had one audition of the Devores).

Back on topic, I find the Joseph Audio speakers completely engaging. I have owned quite a few speakers, and these are keepers. 

Sure sounded great on the video :-)

Good job pc997! 

(I feel like I just spoke a line from a Star Wars movie...)

How do you find your speakers compare to some of the comparable commercially built models?

@erik_squires 
Completely agree. Sometimes DIY hifi is more satisfying than buying equipment. Especially your DIY actually comes close to purchased equipment.

My own:
https://youtu.be/C8fwA3nPNls

Hi @kalali - 

This is a digression. 

I'm not saying everyone should design their own speakers, nor do I think saving money is the reason to do so. 

I do think every audiophile should get their hands at least a little dirty at least once in their hobby. Even if you only buy a $50 kit with all the parts ready to assemble, the learning experience of making your own speakers is priceless, as is the ability to tinker endlessly. I feel strongly that if more audiophiles went from amateur speaker engineers to actually building even a single pair of speakers our hobby would be better for it. 

Best,

E

The discussion or perhaps digression around the kits and similarity of the drivers was not intended to imply that folks who buy "designer" high end speakers are being ripped off. Building these kits is work and takes patience and tuning them to taste is an acquired/learned skill. And it takes a special type of person to go the DIY route, just like changing your own oil in your car or replacing windows in your home. Will you save money at the end, probably yes. Will you know what you're going to end up with, probably not.    

I don't think there's anything that special about JA cabinets or drivers, so to me the special sauce that makes their speakers sound so good and different from others (at least to me) is mainly the crossover.  So unless you can reproduce the infinite slope crossover design JA uses and implement it correctly with the specific drivers and cabinet being used (to me this is the real value added), you might make great sounding speakers but I seriously doubt they'll have that certain JA magic.  I know I can't do it, so some day I'll be happy to cut Jeff Joseph a check.  But I agree that building speakers would be a very worthwhile, educational, and fun exercise that I'll definitely give a shot at some point (probably after we boot the kids out of the nest).

@markalarsen 

I think you have a wonderful perspective! 

And yes, selling kits used is a B, but on the other hand, you did not invest that much to begin with. 

Direct comparisons matter a great deal, and it is horribly unfair to designers at JA to attempt a side by side, spec only based comparison. 

Still, you should build a kit once in your hobby lifetime, you would learn a great deal, no matter which kit you build. 

Best,

E

I have owned the Pulsars and now have a pair of Perspectives.  Wonderful speakers. As far as kits go, you do not understand cost accounting and, without a direct comparison, have no idea as to whether they sound as good as the JAs. Good luck if you ever want to sell them used. 

I am am willing to pay for the overhead, quality control and intellectual property that goes into the Joseph Audio products. 

Shame I can't post images. So looking at the Stereophile review for the Perspectives, and the data at Madisound, the crossovers are entirely different. 

One of the main results appears to be the lowering of the tweeter / woofer frequency with the JA. The kit crosses around 3 kHz, the JA around 1.8 kHz. In order to support this, you need steeper crossover slopes so that the tweeter gets cut off faster. JA appears to use 18 dB/octave (3rd order) while the kit uses about 10 dB/octave (closer to 2nd order). 

If you knew a little about crossover design you could attempt this without using a magical crossover though. Also, there are some overall differences. JA's tweeter is tuned a little bright, and they deal with a slight hump of the drivers around 1 kHz which the kit does not. 

So, will they sound exactly the same? Probably not, but high quality parts with different directions were taken. Fun place to get started in DIY. 

Best,

E

Found the review for the JA Perspectives,

https://www.stereophile.com/content/joseph-audio-perspective-loudspeaker

which are closer in line to the SEAS kit I was suggesting.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2.5-way-speaker-kits/seas-delling-excel-kit-pair/

Around $3k for the kit, assuming cabinetry from Lee Taylor.

http://www.taylorspeakers.com/

Around $13k for the perspectives.

I think that if you are at all interested in building a kit, and want to try for something similar this is a worthwhile investment. Again, a major advantage to this is the ability to tune the entire speaker to taste with a little measurement and a little know-how. You may never buy fancy cables again. :)

Best,

E

hi @rlb61 - Well, without measuring there is no way to tell exactly what was done for Joseph Audio. This is quite typical work by the way. Changes to the impedance, or suspension to accommodate target enclosures or crossovers are often done, plus they make the drivers "unobtanium" for the average consumer. 

Note that those are a little smaller than the drivers in the kit I was recommending. 

As for the crossover, I don't know what they are actually using. Perhaps that notch in impedance is evidence of their unique style? 

Still, every audiophile should build their own speakers at least once in their hobby's lifetime. These are top quality parts engineered by experts and an excellent value. 

Imagine the fun rolling your own capacitors and tuning the levels yourself instead of swapping amps and cables. 

Best,

E

Oz, I enjoy your posts very much. However, I don't know what the post above has to do with the Pulsars.

Scroll up to the top of the page on 4/16 for the posts in question, they are back to back. It will all become clear.

Oz

@ozzy62 not complaining at all. I am just enjoying the comedy show that initially started on Nov 2016..
:-)

I owned the Pulsars for a few years and loved what they did in my system and would highly recommend them to anyone in the market for a two-way design. I ended up replacing them with Sonus faber Olympica 3’s. And..as in all things audio..as much as I liked the Pulsars... the 3’s are in another class altogether. But,in reality..at nearly twice the cost..they had better be. Enjoy the music!!!

@ozzy62  ... Oz, I enjoy your posts very much. However, I don't know what the post above has to do with the Pulsars.

The agon members here ( you know who you are) that disparage tekton in totally unrelated threads remind me so much of the snowflakes who take every opportunity to cry about what happened in November of 2016. You guys are NOT flattering yourselves. Just move on with life. This is just a hobby, not serious business.

And this is someone with no dog in the fight observing from the outside, take it for what it's worth............

Oz

OK, I'll bite. JA claims that the SEAS drivers are customized for them. They claim also that the Modaferri xover is unique to them as a licensee. So, even if you bought the kit and had it installed in cabinets, would it sound similar to the Pulsars for 1/2 the price? I have no regrets about buying the JA's, but I'm curious about the extent to which it is an off-the-shelf speaker, if at all.

erik, I saw that kit. It'll make a great sounding speaker and with the right cabinet will compete with $10K-$15K commercial speakers. Makes for a great summer project.

By the way, as I was looking for something entirely different I found a Seas 2.5 way tower kit at Madisound, using similar parts. Worth checking out, especially for the price! 

Around $1,800 for the drivers with crossovers. You could probably get Lee at Taylor Speakers to build cabinets for you for $1k, or assemble them in their entirety for a little more. 

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2.5-way-speaker-kits/seas-delling-excel-kit-pair/

http://www.taylorspeakers.com/

erik,

Since you are here....

A very common reaction to the JA sound, one that I have as well, is finding it to be particularly clear and grain-free.  A really "black background" as it were with a particular purity to the sound.

Can you notice anything in particular about the design that might account for this?

I have not looked inside the JA Pulsars, but I have to say, the impedance curve and measurements lead me to believe these are fairly conventional crossovers, but Kudos to JA for being so well implemented. The curious thing is the dip just below 2 kHz, leading me to believe there’s probably a notch filter or something there. Probably to adjust those woofers.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/joseph-audio-pulsar-loudspeaker-measurements

Without that dip, this looks like a very very normal impedance and frequency response charts. What IS unusual is Stereophile liking something that measures so well. - HAH!

There is usually about a 10x markup between drivers and sales price, so I think the $7,700 retail price is not bad at all. These are pretty high quality parts. 

E

  If given the chance I would like to hear them,but I doubt seriously I would buy them based on appearance alone.I say this after owning their double impact speaker for 10 months.

@kdude66  You know the offer is always open to stop by for a listen! I'll have the covers very soon. Maybe that will make the appearance more palatable for you. But they're still going to be 7 ft tall no matter what.  

@pc997 ... no offense taken. I agree that the Pulsars are expensive. I wish I had the skills to build my own speakers, like you, but I can just about hammer in a screw. :-) Happy listening.

@rlb61 I never intended to say that you paid too much or anything in those lines. I am sorry if my posts sounded that way.
Everybody has different way of looking at things. And some things can not be measured in dollars. I am just happy that I can put together a set of speakers somewhat close to world class manufacturer’s.

@oddiofyl ... Well said. That's exactly how I feel.

@pc997 ... I got a competitive trade-in on my 17 year old B&Ws, so the hit wasn’t as bad as I had expected. Bottom line is that I wanted the JA sound (which is very difficult to find used) and, as my mother has always said, "if you buy the best, you’ll never be sorry." So, I splurged a bit on something I had wanted for a long time, but at least I didn’t buy some monstrosity of a speaker that cost $189K per pair, either.

Enjoy !  Its always nice to listen to the music and not the speaker if you know what I mean.   When you stop analyzing and scrutinizing every note and get sucked into the music you are on to something......

Just found out. JA Pulsars cost around $7,700!!
WOW.. I bet I can run my pair against theirs and still smile..

No doubt that the SEAS drivers make a difference, but so does the Modafferi x-over which Jeff Joseph has improved upon. I can only describe the sound of the Pulsars as natural and unforced. There's an ease of presentation that I haven't heard in other speakers, but without being soft or rolled off  ... voices and instruments sound the way that they're supposed to sound. I just don't know how else to describe them. To say that I'm thrilled with the Pulsars would be a polite understatement.

Here is the link.
https://youtu.be/C8fwA3nPNls

Listening to Susan Wong on youtube from ipad. Signal is going through small Yamaha mixer to $100 basic Sony receiver. And sounds this good.

Let me know what everyone think?

I feel the same way about my Golden Ear Triton Ones !