New DACs High End Munich 2023

The best DAC I have owned is the Schitt Yggi+ LESS IS MORE version that I recently got. I am using a Sonore OpticalRendu to stream USB via fibre, so that is a big part of it.

I like the Yiggi+ over my recently sold Lumin X1 and Musetec 005. I like both DACs via fibre a lot, but I think the Yiggi sounds a bit better on my 2-channel and headphones. At $2300 I am rather pumped about this.

@yyzsantabarbara

i have also had both the yggy as well as the 005 (as you well know)

curious to hear you describe how you compare them sonically...

i had the yggy og, but it was a while back

also, what streamer or digital input did you use?

trust you are still enjoying the lil maggies + sub!

@jjss49 The Musetec 005 is a very smooth and slightly warm DAC. It was perfect when I was using my RAAL SR1a phones with my 2-channel amps. The RAAL is bright. My speakers were also neutral so the 005 did work well there too.

When I got the RAAL VM-1a tube headphone amp the 005 was a bad match. The VM-1a took things to a 10/10 and dropped what I thought was previously great to about a 8/10.

The Musetec left the scene to be replaced by the Benchmark DAC3B. That DAC is not as good as the 005 on my 2-channel but it was really good with the VM-1a. The brighter DAC3B worked better over the smoother 005.

I got a used Lumin X1 at a great price and immediately loved it. It was not as smooth as the 005 nor as bright as the DAC3B. So, I thought spending more on a DAC sort of makes sense. I was always thinking that there is too much diminishing returns with DACs and price. The X1 made me change my mind. The fibre streaming on the X1 also had a great deal to do with the sound. The only issue with the X1 I had was the perception of a slight roll off on the top end. You can hear all of this with the VM-1a amp.

I got the Yggi+ LESS IS MORE based on reviews I read. I also wanted a DAC ASAP and Schiit is very close by.

I was expecting the Schitt to be in the class of the Benchmark DAC3B and maybe the 005. The Yggi+ does not have the brightness of the DAC3B. It is not slightly rolled off on top as the X1. It is not overly smooth as the 005 or warm. It just plays music without any offending attributes. This is the first DAC where I thought this way.

I am using a Sonore OpticalRendu to stream into the Yggi+. The oR is actually preferred by me to the livelier X1’s streamer. Though I think my Playback Designs Stream-IF is going to be even better via PLink (when I replace the DAC3B with a PD DAC). The SPDIF stream on the Stream-IF is amazing.

I ended up trading in my Lumin X1 for $3K more than I paid and thus was able to buy the amazing Yamaha NS5000 speaker. I need a DAC for that system too, I am thinking of another LESS IS MORE or the Playback Designs DACs.

As for the LRS+ and sub I am using that with the LESS IS MORE and a PeachTree GAN400 amp. I am debating returning the GAN400 it to waste more money on an amp, but I really have no complaints with the GAN400. The preamp is a Holo Serene, which is amazing.

I have a customer who just traded in an Lampizator Amber 4 with VC for a Bricasti M3.

@verdantaudio

scott i hope you will listen to this thing and compare to the well known ones you have discussed in the past, weiss, bricasti, rockna, chord, pbd and so on, and report back to us! or ship it to me and i will ... 😁

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisb583d-lampizator-amber-4-dac-preamp-da-converters

i do know our good buddy @tvad also had a lampi, liked it quite alot but ultimately sold it and kept his bricasti as well

With due respect to those who love tubes, I don’t want tubes in my DAC or amp. I am fine with them in my preamp.

Yes, I’m a new member. However, I did extensive research and talked to numerous Conrad Johnson users before demoing and purchasing an Amber 3. I’m just pitching a DAC for consideration based on my experiences. No different than anyone else. And yes, I read both posts regarding DACs and made the same comment. At least I’m consistent… Obviously, the end user is the only person who can make this decision. The Amber 3 or 4 is a DAC worthy of consideration. 

@yyzsantabarbara,  I purchased an Yiggy+ LIM recently after reading the reviews on it.  I was thinking its sound signature will match with what I like and that it might be a cheaper alternative to my two favorite DACs I’ve owned (Mojo Audio previously and Meitner MA3 currently).   I thought it was excellent and had a similar natural tone, good dynamics, no fatigue, etc.     

It wasn’t until I dropped back in the MA3 that I realized the differences were enough that I will still be keeping the more pricey DAC.   I thought the LIM was a little dry sounding, lacked a little texture, and definitely seemed to be missing the super black background and more detail of the Meitner.

Relatively speaking though I think the differences are small when you factor in the price difference.  Throw in it’s made in the USA and comes with a great warranty and I think it’s a great deal!   I hated to sell it but couldn’t justify it as my TV DAC where the Bifrost 2/64 makes way more sense financially, and also sounds excellent…

@ddafoe That makes sense. I was lucky that I liked the cheaper DAC more than the Lumin X1. I definitely like it more on the RAAL SR1a and VM-1a amp. On my 2-channel I think it is less of a difference.  A lot of this is the synergy with the gear you have. 

I will try the Yggi+ on my Yamaha NS5000 on Sunday. It has become my best system and the plan is to upgrade the DAC on that system. The Yggi+ will take stage in that system until I get an amp for the office. I returned my PeachTree GAN400 on Friday. If I did not hang around A'gon I would have kept it.

Yes, I’m a new member. However, I did extensive research and talked to numerous Conrad Johnson users before demoing and purchasing an Amber 3. I’m just pitching a DAC for consideration based on my experiences. No different than anyone else. And yes, I read both posts regarding DACs and made the same comment. At least I’m consistent… Obviously, the end user is the only person who can make this decision. The Amber 3 or 4 is a DAC worthy of consideration.

They clearly out perform others on the market at 2-3 times the price. If quality and sound matters, check out Lampizator’s entry level DAC.

@rubicon15

wonderful! welcome... please tell us more about your system, your background, your country (which you have listed as n/a)...

there is a virtual system page, please post pictures of your gear and set up, and list your equipment so we might see

what prior dacs have you owned? which ones 2-3 times the cost of your lampi have you tried? just curious to know, thanks ... what other usernames have you used here in the past, if any?

we welcome legit new members who are dedicated to this hobby, and have alot to contribute to others here seeking advice or points of view on successful system building... otoh we who have been around the block here a while can smell a shill from a distance... shills, by the way, are also remarkably consistent in their posted content, sometimes painfully so...

So, is this a polite and somewhat political way of calling me a shill. To maintain my “consistency” this is a rhetorical question. Note, unlike you, I made a recommendation for consideration only. I encouraged the originator of the thread to do his own research. I mentioned one DAC for consideration. I didn’t get into the weeds. As far as my current system, I’m an old tube guy. I currently have a more classic tube system I’ve put together over the past few years - Conrad Johnson, Classic 60se, ET3se preamp, DV-2b CD (in pristine condition), Lampizator, Amber 3, Lumin U2 mini, and B&W 705 s2 speakers. All of the CJ equipment is in mint condition. I’ve previously owned Marantz, Mac, Music Fidelity, Bryston, ATI, Adcom, Thornes, and Rotel equipment, to name a few. I’m currently using a MIT cable loom with the exception of the speaker cables - Nordost, Red Dawn, and BH USB. One thing to keep in mind, this “shill” doesn’t sit around and watch CNN. I’ve been around the block. I’m sure you’re smart enough to figure this out… In the future, I won’t waste your time or mine. I’d be the first to admit, I’m definitely not an expert. There is so much to learn and experience first hand in this world. It’s more than a simple hobby. I continue to learn by reading, researching, seeking candid feedback, advice and listening to as many systems and components as possible. Cheers!

@rubicon15,

Good to know that you recommended a DAC since you probably heard good things about it. But there are some red flags, at least for me, and that is what even @jjss49 feels. You say you are an “old tube guy” and “been around the block”. From experiences on this and other forums, old time have hard time with internet. Strange that you registered brand new to make a recommendation, in the very first post. Old guys generally register when they desperately need help, and Internet forums is probably the last thing on their minds. 
Maybe you are different than other old timers we have seen here before. Cheers to you for the recommendation. Unfortunately, I do not look forwards to tubes in my DAC.

On The Weekend Passed, I was fortunate to be one of a Group of invitees to a Home where the resident system has been a ’first time’ encounter, and nearly every device in the system has been a first time encounter as well.

A recent acquisition DAC from the Brand Hegel, which the was the Model HD 30, is the resident DAC and was used for much of the demo’.

From the outset there was a lot to be happy with, but that could have also been very much associated with the Klipsch Jubilee Speakers, that were taking pride of place in a dedicated Acoustic Treated room, or just the whole ambience as the listening Room is the result of a recent completion of a Home Renovation.

Once the stimulus’s were more concentrated into the Sound being produced only.

It become quite apparent the Hegel HD 30, was in this system, as a SS DAC, was delivering in manner that was much more noticeable in improvement to my tastes, to any other SS DAC that has been demo’d over the past 18 months.

The day was not limited to the system as met, there were devices brought along that were to be exchanged with resident equivalents.

RCA Phono Cables between £300 - £1000 were tried out.

In this system, the £1000 Cable was able to really show off the Quality of the CD Replays, the sound being produced was a cut above, what was before.

Alternative Pre and Power Amp’s were used and then a Bespoke Built Valve DAC>PWA Memory Player as a comparison to the CDP >Hegel.

The Valve DAC for all the right reasons was a show stopper, the requests to replay earlier used tracks was constant. The Valve DAC really shone in this system.

I am investigation SS DAC’s and am not allocating a cost associated with the Hegel, I am on a tighter budget and am also am interested in a DAC with a small dimension/footprint.

If I could discover a SS DAC that meets my wants, that has a leaning toward the Hegel by as little as 50% as a produced sonic, I will be very happy. The Hegel is in my view based on experience through encounters with SS DAC’s the best encounter I have had to date.

If Budget allows, the Hegel HD 30, is certainly one to attempt to have a demo’ off.

It also is seemingly a Model with many Tick Boxes for the OP’s needs.

FWIW, both the Host of this occasion and one of the attendees, had got themselves quite familiarised with the Hegel prior to their visiting Munich 2023.

Their description given when inquiring about DAC;s encountered, is pretty much, neither felt their experiences at Munich was able to discover a DAC' that stood out against this one, the only notable differences they were confident they was detecting was the difference between speakers being demo'd.

As the system in use with the Hegel has Klipsch Jubilee's as Speakers, this is hardly surprising. I myself expect many Speakers to sound quite wanting after being in front of the Klipsch's for quite few hours.

I totally get not wanting tubes in your DAC or tube equipment. I spoke with a lot of CJ guys before demoing and purchasing the Lampizator. It pairs well with my CJ equipment. I’m the opposite. I have tubes in everything except the streamer. Yes, even the CD player has 2 tubes. I replaced a Bryston BDA-2 that I kept after selling a BDP and preamp. It never paired well with the vintage CJ amp. Once I found the ET3se in mint condition, I started looking for a new DAC. I’ve had the Amber for almost a year. Despite not having a power button on the front plate, it’s been a nice addition. I just purchased the Lumin U2. I preferred it over the Bricasti M3. As you may know, some consider it’s design and firmware more future ready. Unlike some audio geeks, I find myself returning to classic equipment, similar to what CJ has to offer instead of the latest and greatest. If you’re patient and lucky, you can find some incredible CJ equipment, have CJ service/upgrade caps etc as needed and end up with something really special.  

Coincidentally, I also bought a Lumin U2 a few days ago, I’m running it with a Rockna Wavedream XLR DAC, a Big Hattor passive preamp and a SimAudio Moon W8 power amplifier, and I don’t regret the purchase (before that I had a DIY audioPC costing about 4k EUR). Even though the Lumin U2 is still far from complete burnt in, I like the sound of it.

Enjoy your new streamer.

No problems with the internet on my end. I understand questioning a new users recommendation or just blowing it off. However, being rude or condescending is a bit much - the first response. I’ve used the internet extensively for a very long time - personally and professionally. If you noticed, I was not seeking advice as you mentioned, just offering up a consideration. I just purchased a Lumin U2 mini without seeking advice on this site. I guess I don’t fit the profile you imagine or normally experience on this site. I was a member of this site years ago, two email addresses and forgotten passwords ago. I usually don’t read posts on this site. I’m a third time user… I joined again to make a simple purchase. 

@rubicon15 Welcome to the Forum, I watched this forum for quite few years before I joined, I see too many posts with similarities to your own experience being met.

Not too long after joining I took a few low blows from the 'old guard', I am still here a few years on and stand strong in my corner.

It looks like your initial entry requires a few extra implements to help pass over some of the hurdles you are being presented.

I have read your first post, your recommendation clearly makes a reference to considering a used item, as well as what I assume is a latest model.

Seeing as there is no links added to anything used, and the present used market using HiFi Shark as  a reference for a Amber 3, shows the only model presently for sale is in Eastern Europe.

I doubt you are the Vendor of a Amber 3 located in the Country Czechoslovakia. 

I think the confrontation is unnecessary and you if the confronters can be the bigger person, you should be feeling much more welcomed.    

Thank you for the follow up pindac. I sincerely appreciate the insight. I’m confident that no one in this group condones condescending or rude behavior. I’m definitely not a vendor or someone trying to dump a used Amber 3. The Amber 4 is the newest entry level DAC. I usually take a fair amount of time to research and demo different components. I’m also fairly patient if I’m considering a used piece of equipment. I don’t look for the best deal. I look for the highest quality piece of equipment I can find. I’ve bought and sold a lot over the years. Like many users, I wish I would have kept a few signature pieces - speakers, reel to reel, Mac amp… I’m more into classic audio equipment, not necessarily the latest and greatest DAC on the market. I will keep your advice in mind moving forward. Thanks again 

There has to be something very Special about a Modern Device to get my attention.

At present in the World of Digital it is the Hegel HD 30 that is the most desired to be listened to in the home system, but limited to its qualities as a SS DAC. I can't see a SS DAC in the short term or even further down the line pushing myself of a Valve DAC. As stated a percentage of the Hegel's traits in a compact form would suffuce for my needs.

In the World of Vinyl, the most desired to be home auditioned devices are a few SUT's produced by the same Brand. 

I very rarely sell and can put together a system used in the Olden Days very quickly, I know where I have been and where I am at. Classic used audio Sources are very attractive to myself, having these overhauled with a modern concept is where the magic really happens for me.

Valves are the big thing, and Vintage Tubes in use with these has proven to be my tipple.

over time, there have been many shills on this site

this new member @rubicon15 presented like a shill in his first three posts, as i saw it

joins on day 1, on days 2 and 3, he posts only on three different threads about expensive dacs, each recommending the lampi amber, and on one post boasting ’it outperforms dacs 2-3x its price’, i also asked what dacs has he tried and compared against the amber 2-3x its price, no reply on that

so i called it out, questioning who is this dude, smells like a shill to me

his first reply defending his earlier posts on the amber amber amber was, well, hey at least i am consistent, to which my reply was, sure bud, shills with an ulterior motive are consistent too...

no condescension here, just being matter-of-fact... when i smell b-s i call it out... dacs are a territory i am quite experienced and knowledgeable about, i have been here a helluva long time, learned a whole lot, contributed much as well, have nothing to gain in giving advice

i do like this site, having been here from the very start, and i do what i can to protect its integrity and well being

if he is a real person, as he now seems to be with successive posts, if he is coming from an earnest place, then all is well and good... we welcome the participation (as i also said earlier, even when calling him out)

I appreciate the welcome. I’m a real person and definitely not a shill as implied previously. You’re probably correct. You may now more about DACs than a lot of people, including myself. Since that was my first post, I didn’t elaborate. Generally speaking, I made an earnest recommendation and advised the author of the thread to research and read reviews on their own. In other words, do their own homework. To answer your question, I did not run an A/B evaluation of a DAC at 2-3 times the price of the Amber. Like most people, I had a budget. In my case 3-5K. I’m not the type of person to waste a sales rep’s time. However, when reading reviews and talking to other CJ owners, the comparison of other DACs was discussed numerous times, similar to this thread. If you’re not a fan of tubes/valves, I get it. Not everyone is a fan. Have a great week!

you as well, enjoy the music (and your amber)

i have never tried a lampi, one day i am sure i will, i know the brand has a loyal following, and an excellent reputation for excellent quality and sound

vacuum tubes at the output stage of dacs can be a terrific solution to provide a lovely wide deep soundstage and that certain magic quality to voices and natural acoustic instruments that solid state gear can have a much harder time doing

@jjss49 Your description of a Valve DAC works for me.

I own one and have compared it to a selection of SS DAC’s.

I am not anti SS DAC, but am glad I was introduced to my Valve DAC early on in my voyage into Digital Recording Replays.

The most recently listened to Hegel HD 30, used in the system it was demo'd in, as well as a professionally Acoustically Treated Room, is the first SS DAC I have totally relaxed with in the same manner a Valve DAC can enforce one to breath out, with a sigh and embrace the moment. As the owned Valve DAC was A/B compared to the Hegel, pretty much made this attractive impression self-evident from the off set.

The Venus Owner who was also present was also very impressed with the impression the Hegel can create. 

The Hegel is certainly not Valve Like, it is very noticeable for being a SS Design, but is very capable of producing a Sonic that is extremely relaxing and able to create a ambience where you are kicking your shoes off and intending on staying for the long haul. Not Bad for a Device, with a short usage life behind it. l am wanting to hear it in use following a few more hundred hours of usage.

Enjoy the Hegel! They are highly regarded. I will add it to my bucket list to demo in the future. Right now, I'm just enjoying my new Lumin U2 mini. 

Just an FYI, the Hegel HD30 DAC is discontinued and they currently have no other stand alone DAC in their product line. Hopefully that will change in time...

There is a endless list of DAC Models that are Superseded by later models.

There are also quite a few who sit tight with their DAC's for many years, without being lured into Upgrade'itis'.

I do not believe the Hegel HD 30 is a unsupported device from the manufacturer, there is nothing to suggest the Company has a 'Leave High and Dry Policy'.

'If' the device is not in production and an interest is developing in this model, it won't take long to verify the accuracy for what is being stated, and how the Company intends of offering support over the following years when Warranty Periods are spent.   

I simply stated that the HD30 was discontinued, not that it was obsolete or unsupported by Hegel.

There are also quite a few who sit tight with their DAC's for many years, without being lured into Upgrade'itis'.

I'm one of them. The most dramatic improvements I've experienced have been upgrading my amp and transport and playing with speaker placement. So far, I haven't had any reason to suspect that  my DAC is a weak point in the signal chain. My guess is that I'd have to spend quite a bit more to realize a significant difference. But then, I've had the same speakers since 2006. If it ain't broke... 

i would like to share what i am doing currently, as it may help put in perspective the relative impact of a dac change on the sonic performance of a system

listening to my modded magnepan 1.7i’s (xo and wiring mods) w rel subs pair, pass int150 (x150.5 power section with passive pre front end) ... exceptionally high resolution system in a dedicated well damped room

comparing a denafrips pontus 2 12th, venus 2, weiss dac501 4ch, AND a $400 van alstine fet valve topp dac (circa 1998, tda 1541 nos chip, dual 12ax7 tubed output, redbook only, good os tubes in it), 3 fed by parallel optical rendu’s, the older ava dac fed by spdif rca out of an ifi zen stream, which in turn is cleansed by an etherregen moat

running roon, so can set different sample rate settings at each digital leg, each leg maximized for the receiving dac, core mqa decoder activated as appropriate

the venus (3.5 grand) sounds a teeny bit silkier than the pontus (2 grand), teeny bit better bass drive, clearly more forward treble, slightly wider image but no deeper no more layered

weiss (10 grand) has equal tonality as the venus, but a deeper more layered soundstage, a little more subtle detail and treble clarity, midbass a little leaner cleaner, equal excellent deep bass drive and prat

the $400 (used) van alstine has less (and less deep) bass drive, which i can easily adjust for with subs’ setting, slightly less micro detail (due to a slightly higher noise floor) but has equal imaging width as the venus, is as layered as the weiss, but with a touch less specific outlines, and a cool, ethereal nature to voices and guitar and acoustic bass that none of the others can quite match

sooo, to me, the implied lessons learned are

1) get the front end very clean (pre streamer/renderer), i use etherregen out of a good audiophile switch, into optical rendu where possible - it lets all dacs compete on an equal footing, be at their best sonically

2) don’t estimate older dacs, they can sound excellent if they have excellent design and componentry (which need not be super expensive)

3) well done tube stage can bring something very special, not better or worse, but different from what ss output dacs sonically present typically

4) the sonic differences between dacs of vastly different costs , even on an excellent, highly resolving, well tuned system, are quite subtle -- not in the 10, or even 5% range... we are talking 1-2% differences here ... (of course functionality and construction quality are separate, distinguishing issues among dacs of different price tiers)

do dacs matter? sure they do... but among very good dacs in various price tiers, even on an excellent, highly transparent, very well optimized system, the performance differences are small indeed

sorry for a long one, but i thought this should be said here on this thread

@jjss49 DAC's you have compared are containing models, I feel confident the OP has a knowledge of or even a interest in.

With the above in mind the description offered is timely and worthwhile seeing.  

It does seem the latest FW for Denafrips is getting very good press as well.

As for Long Posts, a Calendar is needed to gauge how long many of my Posts can be 😂.

@jjss49 DAC's you have compared are containing models, I feel confident the OP has a knowledge of or even a interest in.

With the above in mind the description offered is timely and worthwhile seeing.  

It does seem the latest FW for Denafrips is getting very good press as well.

As for Long Posts, a Calendar is needed to gauge how long many of my Posts can be 😂.

2) don’t estimate older dacs, they can sound excellent if they have excellent design and componentry (which need not be super expensive)

i obviously meant to say ’don’t UNDER estimate older dacs'... sorry for the error in my earlier post

@jjss49  Thanks for your sharing that very useful info and point of view.  I think so many people have more money than sense and are always out there reading about the next great thing.  They lose perspective of what makes a major difference and how much something they spend money on really matters.

Clever Marketing has the power of suggestion, which for some, there is little defence.

Retracting from its advances, as would a hand from a Red Hot Poker Tip, is not able to be mustered. 

The desire to separate from disposable income, is the exact place clever marketing embeds itself in ones psyche. 

I am intrigued when in the Digital Section on Forums, not only this one, of how many individuals can role call owned digital devices, that seemingly have similar numbers to the quantity of a not too heavy populated CD Collection.  

Coming from a Vinyl Background the exchanges within and outside of forums have never put me in the path of individuals who have a history of turnover of supporting devices for this Source as seen in the world of Digital as a Source.

Is a Digital Source really such a experience, where being seemingly discontented, surfaces speedily for a broader spread of its users.

I could not settle for Digital for many years, nearly 40 Years after it became mainstream. The impact of the sonic on myself was for a very long time, not wanted to be used in the Home System, the Source Materials was used for In Car Entertainment and in the Children's Bedrooms.

Today, I have embraced digital and have found my peace with it, there has been no need to turn over numerous ancillaries to find the devices that are preferential to myself.

 I don't just put that change solely down to the CD as a Source along with the supporting ancillaries, it also has a lot to do with development of the system and the present day performance of the audio system overall.    

@jjss49 

Many thanks for the "reality check" re: the 1- 2% difference in SQ you've encountered between a variety of DACs at different price points.  Given the attention (is the word "hype" applicable here?) high-dollar DACs garner on the forum and elsewhere, I'd expected much more dramatic deltas.

Did anyone grab a Weiss DAC 205 before the recent price increase?   I've been tempted to try a 205 as I don't use USB or DSD.  It looks like it just jumped in price over the last 5 days or so from $1665 to $2195 :(