New cartridge vs. Re-tipped

There is no cut and dry answer. It depends on the cartridge, who is doing the service, and what their retipping service includes. It can be done cheaply and/or badly and change the original cartridge for the worse, or it can be done very well at greater cost (e.g. in the case of Lyra or Dynavector factory rebuild service) and result in something the same as the original and possibly even better.

There is no one good answer to such a general question.

Like @dwette said.  And try and do some research on your specific case. Who did the re-tip? If you can find out, read reviews of their work.

I had a Denon DL103 with a missing cantilever. I sent it off to an independent re-tipper who had great feedback.  The upgraded cart I got back was transformed to another level. There are good re-tippers out there.

I had my Ortofon cart retipped at Soundsmith.....very pleased....sound better than the original....no down side

To follow on my previous post. I had my Dynavector XV-1s factory rebuilt early last year. It came back better than it ever was before. The distributor (he’s local to me and told me himself) said when they rebuilt it they included improvements to the design they had made since mine was new. Only the body and magnets remained from the original. I essentially got an improved version of my original that’s like new, and it sounds better than I ever remember the original.

OTOH: I had someone tell me a 3rd party retip they got back was a butcher job. The re-tip servicer cut off the cantilever and slipped another one over the remaining shaft with a new tip, but it changed the sound and performance for the worse.

I suppose you get what you pay for. Do the research if the cartridge has value. I have two Lyra Atlas and a DV XV-1s. I plan to stand pat with official factory rebuilds for them all. It’s costly but factory service preserves the cartridges as they are meant to be.

@dwette @stringreen @nwres 

Gentlemen, I appreciate your responses. They have helped a lot.

In this particular case I am looking at a Lyra cartridge that was re-tipped by Soundsmith. I have not talked with the seller yet, but I am assuming that the workmanship is good, but Soundsmith probably did not use Lyra authorized parts, which if correct would likely mean that the sound profile of the cartridge could be somewhat different than a factory built Lyra. Do you concur or do you think I am off base?

Thanks.

You are 100% correct that a retipped Lyra cartridge by SoundSmith most likely will not have the identical sonic sig but that doesn't mean it would be worse. Soundsmith when doing retips has several choices, I know from experience. From 2 I've had done (Kuzma cartridges) I thought they sounded slightly better than original. Again my own experience. 

I have never seen a single post from anyone ever saying they were not extremely pleased with a Soundsmith or VAS retip. Whether the sound was 100% the same I can’t say, but I think it’s important to do what the retipper thinks will work best. I’ve had 2 done and in both cases, they recommended leaving the cantilever and replacing the stylus only. I was very satisfied with the work both times.  That said, if money is a big issue, I would probably move down one level on the cartridge and buy new if I didn’t know the owner. Was the retipped cartridge ever used?  Or straight from the retipper to you?  Unless you know the seller, that could be a risk, IMO.

I had my Lyra Skala rebuilt by Soundsmith, and didn't especially care for its new sonic signature.  IMO, the difference in cantilever material fundamentally changed the sound of the cartridge.  It's not bad per se, but it's no longer a Lyra.  I don't think I'd send another cart to Soundsmith since I think their generic 'one size fits all' approach seems a bit heavy handed.  I'm going to send it to Joseph Long, and see what he can do with it.  He seems to have a wider array of materials (including boron cantilevers), as well as identical profile Ogura diamonds.  His backlog is lengthy however.  Just my 2¢.  

It's costly to do but there is no way I would send my Lyra cartridges to a 3rd party for retip. Factory rebuild is the way to go, especially with Etna and Atlas.

I have a Koetsu Rosewood Signature with a missing stylus. It was given to me by a dealer that was going to throw it in the trash after replacing with a different cartridge for a customer. I plan to have it repaired after I decide what retipper to send it to.

On a few occasions we have been contacted by Wally Tools and other cartridge inspection services regarding excessively lax stylus alignment tolerances of Lyra cartridges.
The customer had bought a new cartridge, and was displeased with the results.

After having the cartridges returned to Japan, a thorough inspection and teardown revealed that the cartridge wasn't new, but had seen considerable use, and had been retipped by another manufacturer / retipper.

Nonetheless, who received the blame initially? The original manufacturer. Us.

Apart from the seller of the cartridge, and the company that charged for the retip work, such affairs leave everyone involved unhappy.
The customer got conned into buying a cartridge that was represented as being new or like new, but wasn't, and wasn't a capable performer. Wally Tools wasted time and effort measuring the cartridge and telling us that we had errored, when the misaligned stylus was someone else's doing.
We wasted time and energy measuring the cartridge, stripping it down, discovering that we weren't responsible, and informing Wally Tools of our findings.

At the very least, it would be nice if every seller of cartridges retipped by companies other than the original manufacturer would be clear regarding the provenance and nature of the remedial work that has been performed.

Grrrr...

kind regards,
jonathan

On a few occasions we have been contacted by Wally Tools and other cartridge inspection services regarding excessively lax stylus alignment tolerances of Lyra cartridges.
The customer had bought a new cartridge, and was displeased with the results.

After having the cartridges returned to Japan, a thorough inspection and teardown revealed that the cartridge wasn't new, but had seen considerable use, and had been retipped by another manufacturer / retipper.

Oof, that was very unfair and understandably frustrating to jcarr and Lyra. Wally shoud have been more familiar with the stock Lyra stylus mount (interface fit?) for that model, as I’m guessing this 3rd party used a different kind which should be immediately apparent under magnification. 

If going with a 3rd party retipper, I think it’s best to find someone able to respect the original manufacturer’s choice of cantilever / stylus / mount technique, as much as possible. The better ones should also be capable of neatly winding new coils and other sophisticated repairs, as a last resort - because sometimes an incident involves deeper damage than just stylus / cantilever. IMO the less desirable 3rd parties  will bolt on one of their "stock" cantilever assemblies to every cartridge model. You see a Koetsu with ruby cantilever? Don’t send your Koetsu there lol. 

@rsf507 @chayro @palasr @dwette @jcarr @mulveling 

Thanks everyone for your responses. They have been very helpful.

Hi everyone, can somebody here please remind me of the Asian gentleman I think in Washington state that rebuilds/retips cartridges? I have an old Denon 103 that needs work.

many thanks!

Dave

Do you mean Andy Kim in California?

https://phonocartridgeretipping.com/

I think he used to be in Bellevue, Washington.

I have used a few retippers over the years. My choice is for those who will do a diamond only replacement. The companies I use are The Expert Stylus Company and AllClear Audio. AllClear has done excellent work for me. Expert has a stellar reputation and long history of doing top rate work. Folks say Joseph Long is a great resource also. 

+1 for Andy Kim. He retipped a ZuAudio and a Cardas Myrtle Heart for me. He said they would sound better after he retipped them; I thought puffery. He was dead on accurate.  Wonderful work at reasonable prices, and very fast turnaround time.  

I’m still trying to decide what to do with my broken Koetsu Rosewood but sending it to Joseph Long (groovetickler) is at the top of my list. A couple people have said to me elsewhere not to use VAS. When I inquired with VAS he said I had to send it there first just to get an estimate. That’s a non-starter for me, and seems like a questionable tactic to me for getting new business. I'm in no rush to deal with it.

@dwette - I have dealt with VAS and I always found him very honest. He told me my Transfiguration cart had a fair amount of life left in it and his prices have always been reasonable with fast turnaround. I have never seen a remotely negative post about him here either. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to see the cart before an estimate because a lot could be wrong that you may not know about. Of course, if you’re getting a bad vibe, deal with someone else. Soundsmith is great, but I had a very long turnaround with them. 

Steve Leung at VAS has done good work for me on two occasions.

I’m still trying to decide what to do with my broken Koetsu Rosewood but sending it to Joseph Long (groovetickler) is at the top of my list. A couple people have said to me elsewhere not to use VAS. When I inquired with VAS he said I had to send it there first just to get an estimate. That’s a non-starter for me, and seems like a questionable tactic to me for getting new business. I’m in no rush to deal with it.

@dwette  When it comes time for me to have a Koetsu done by 3rd party (I’ve had Koetsu Japan rebuilds a few times in the past), Joseph Long is the ONLY state-side guy I’m considering. He shows his work results on his Instagram and it's pretty impressive in quality and quantity. Then there are a couple more guys worldwide I’d trust enough to take a shot on. 

@chayro @dogberry @mulveling 

Thanks for your feedback. I’ve only heard great things about Joseph Long and mixed reviews about VAS, so I’ll stand with what I said before in considering the former and avoiding the latter.

I've also heard good things about Allclear Audio, but I'd like to avoid shipping to/from Australia.

Hi everyone, can somebody here please remind me of the Asian gentleman I think in Washington state that rebuilds/retips cartridges? I have an old Denon 103 that needs work.

many thanks!

Dave

You are thinking of Andy Kim, who is now in California.  I've had him retip a few carts, including a Zu Denon DL-103.  It was damaged when I bought it (came with a turntable I bought), so I don't know how much better it was than when stock, but after he worked his magic, it's very close to my Dyanvector XV-1S and van den Hul Crimson XGW Stradivarius, both of which retail for over $5K.  His turnaround is very fast also.

Great experience with Andy Kim, highly recommended

+1 Andy Kim. He upgraded my DL 103. Highly recommended.

@jcarr  Would you be kind enough to share with us what wears out on a cartridge besides the diamond? I imagine the damper and those types of materials would. What about the tensioning mechanism or the yoke assembly? When does this wear typically show up in relation to hours of use? 

 

With Lyra retipped cartridges the internals are all disposed of then when a cartridge is refurbished for a customer? 

 

Thanks for any info you would be able to pass on. 

Hi @neonknight:

Before answering your question, many of the cartridges that are returned to us for service are ailing due to factors that are within the customer's power to control.

For example, inadequate cleanliness in the cartridge operating environment will lead to excessive accumulation of dirt / metal particles in the front yoke / magnet and coil area, which hampers the cantilever's ability to track properly. Normally this can be avoided by keeping the stylus and LPs clean, but if the LP played while still wet, or the customer is sloppy in applying stylus cleaning fluids, the excess fluids can solidify with the accumulated dirt to form a cement-like substance that is impossible to remove without damaging the front yoke / magnet and cantilever. We've had to rebuild / replace cartridges because of this, which is regrettable as it was entirely preventable.

Many returned cartridges show signs of side-swiping or side impacts, which can cause the vertical axis of the signal coils to become twisted, degrading channel separation / crosstalk.
For the past few years we have been building up a database, which as the final step of the production process, records each cartridge's serial number and performance measurements such as channel separation. When a cartridge is returned to us for servicing, if it is still playable we will measure it and compare the data against the numbers that were recorded when the cartridge was new. A marked degradation of channel separation is usually a sign of a side impact, and sometime we see physical evidence that backs this up (such as a front yoke that has been twisted, due to its receiving a whack from the side).

We've even had cartridges returned due to degraded performance, where the front yoke was clearly out of position. Upon querying the customer, some have admitted to taking a screwdriver to the screw that secures the front yoke in place and tightening it up, which is likely to twist the yoke and degrade tracking, channel separation, and sound quality. It seems that seeing exposed screw-heads makes some people want to get their tool chest out (lol).

However, sometimes the customer is not at fault. On one occasion a cartridge that had excellent channel separation prior to shipping, was returned to us with much poorer figures. After readjusting, the channel separation was in the mid-30dBs. But shortly after the customer received the readjusted cartridge, again the channel separation had plummeted to under 25dB. We took back the cartridge, but after readjusting the cartridge, we waited for about a week, to see what would happen to the channel separation. Lo and behold it worsened, and the problem was traced back to slippage in the plug used to secure the suspension wire, which in turn was caused by an inadequately mixed batch of glue. Since the fault was deep inside the cantilever assembly, hidden underneath the coil armature and joint pipe, it wasn't visible externally, and since the suspension slippage didn't occur immediately, we initially thought that the cartridge was OK, when it wasn't. In the end, Ogura owned up to their assembly error, the mystery was solved, and the customer was happy. (Note that replacing only the stylus, or only the cantilever and stylus, wouldn't have cured the problem.)

Other cartridges have been returned because they had become low-riders (insufficient or marginal clearance between the bottom of the cartridge and the LP surface). In many cases the cause will be an inadequately adjusted tonearm elevator mechanism that allows the cartridge to be dropped onto an LP from a good height, which is likely to stretch the suspension wire and possibly force a depression into the dampers. In other cases excessive tracking forces are the cause, sometimes due to the customer's habits, sometimes due to the tonearm counterweight accidentally slipping forward.

Regarding stylus wear and the contributing factors, excessive vertical tracking force will decrease stylus longevity, likewise for incorrect anti-skating.
It is not uncommon for new cartridges to be played with a tracking force that is at the top of the recommended range, or even slightly beyond, but if the intent is to eke out the longest stylus lifespan, using higher tracking forces than strictly necessary is counterproductive.

Next, cleanliness is next to saintliness. The dirt that accumulates in the LP groove and gets transferred to the stylus tends to have a high silicon oxide content (sand), and sand's abrasive nature will significantly hasten stylus wear. Keeping the LP scrupulously clean with an ultrasonic or fluid-and-vacuum cleaner, and cleaning the stylus after each LP (after each side is even better) with a liquid stylus cleaner will help greatly to extend stylus life. But as mentioned above, leaving undried fluid on the LP, or slathering stylus cleaning fluid onto the cantilever or front yoke will lead to other issues.
Yes, the cost of a quality stylus cleaning fluid is not insignificant, but compared to the cost of a cartridge retip or rebuild that is brought on by accelerated stylus wear, it is a bargain.

As an aside, Magic Eraser as a non-fluid stylus cleaner should be used with an awareness of its limitations, and not be relied on as the only means of cleaning the stylus.
Using a Magic Eraser scrapes off the dirt that has accumulated on the stylus, but pushes it upwards rather than removing it entirely. This helps in the short term, but since the cantilever forms a ceiling over the stylus, the pushed-up dirt becomes trapped between the cantilever ceiling and the stylus block, and over time will be packed tightly and extend downwards (like a stalactite). Eventually the tightly packed layer of dirt will extend downwards far enough to interfere with the LP contact edges of the stylus, and tracking will suffer.
We have received cartridges for service that had been regularly cleaned with a Magic Eraser, yet had lost their ability to track the LP groove. Meticulously cleaning the stylus with a liquid cleaner (and sometimes a judiciously-wielded scalpel) rectified the issue.
Careful use of the Magic Eraser can be OK, but it should be augmented with periodic cleaning with a good liquid stylus cleaner (but don't get the liquid onto the cantilever - apply it to the stylus only).

All right, finally time to answer your question directly.

Over time...

In addition to stylus wear, alloy corrosion can occur in the joint pipe that ties the forward section of the cantilever to the coil former and suspension section. Excessive corrosion of the joint pipe means that the mounting rigidity of the boron / ruby / diamond cantilever rod will be lost. If the cantilever is metal, corrosion can likewise happen to the cantilever itself, depending on the alloy and whether a protective coating or surface treatment has been applied. Any corrosion process will be hastened with exposure to excessive moisture, or airborne salt and other reactive elements.

The adhesives used to bond parts together will gradually lose flexibility, become more brittle, and may shrink and pull away from the components that they were intended to bond or encapsulate. If the process continues, the adhesive layer thicknesses can become thinner, and alter tolerances and clearances.

Greases (used for dampening as well as lubrication) tend to harden over time, and in some cases the solids and liquid components may start to separate and clump. And depending on how much freedom the greases have to move, the pull of gravity can cause shifting over time (Satin cartridges are a known example of this).

Most rubber dampers will exhibit decreased elasticity, and gradually deform due to constant compression by the armature and coils along with general hardening of the rubber compound. Other compounds will turn to goo over time, or liquify. A number of the temperature-stable damper systems used by the likes of Technics and Yamaha are prone to this issue.

The suspension wire can take on a kink or "set", which means that the cantilever moves less readily in some directions than others. This will worsen tracking performance.

Should the insulation layer of the coil wire have pinholes (even if they are so small as to be initially imperceptible), the long-term result can be breakage or shorts.
The leadout wires of the coil will gradually work-harden due to repeated flexing every time the cartridge is cued on or off the LP, which can likewise lead to eventual breakage or short circuits.
We and a few other cartridge manufacturers mitigate this by threading the coil leadouts through the center hole of the dampers, but this can lead to unpleasant surprises if a non-manufacturer retipper attempts to rotate the dampers without taking into account that doing so will twist the coil leadouts and possibly break them.

The grub screws that secure the cantilever assembly in place are very small, and can only take a very limited number of torque cycles before they break. Once the heads break, their small size makes it nearly impossible to remove the screws to free the worn-out cantilever assembly.

The magnets can lose strength.
With Alnico magnets, typical causes are impacts (dropped cartridges), or if the magnetic circuit was ever opened. Luckily, it isn't particularly difficult to recharge Alnico magnets.
Neodymium magnets degrade quickly without a surface layer to protect against moisture and oxygen. However the protective layer sometimes gets scratched or flaked; then it is only a question of time before the magnet loses much of its strength, and should be replaced.
Samarium-cobalt magnets are stable in my experience, and platinum-iron magnets are also stable (but the older formulations were not as strong as the newer grades).

It is also quite common to get back front magnet carriers (aka yokes or polepieces) that are damaged (cracked or fractured). In Lyra's cartridges the front magnet carrier is counterbored to form a mounting cradle around the front magnet, and having cracks or fractures in this critical area means that the front magnet can vibrate or move.
I have seen photographs of retipped Lyra cartridges where parts of the front magnet cradle had cracked off and were missing.

Signal output pins are typically plated with gold, silver and other highly conductive metals which are soft, and will pick up scratches and nicks with usage (due to abrasion against the headshell lead clips). This means worsened quality of the contact surfaces, and degraded sound.
And depending on how customer attaches the headshell lead clips to the output pins, the pins can be forcibly rotated, which strains the coil leadout wires inside the cartridge. In extreme cases, the output pins will loosen within the output pin block and spin freely or snap.

On some cartridge models I have used flanged inserts to take the 2.6mm mounting screws, rather than cutting the screw thread into the cartridge body. Certain customers have been prone to tighten the screws with so much torque that the flanges flexed and work-hardened, which eventually resulted in breakage. Each screw insert was covered by its flange, making it nearly impossible to spot the damage building up until the flange popped loose.

Scratches, nicks and damage accumulate with use (we have received cartridges that were badly gouged because whoever installed the cartridge, activated an electric screw driver without checking if the mounting screws were aligned with the screw holes or not).
A not-so-large minority of customers will accept a cartridge that retains scratches or dings on the body, but others have kicked up a stink when blemishes that they put into it were still present on the returned cartridge, leading to demands for before-and-after photographic evidence, blame vs blame, and general unhappiness.

On the other hand, restoring a blemished cartridge to as-new or even nearly-new appearance requires first checking the threads of the grub-screw-holes that secure the cantilever in place for damage, and the threads of the 2.6mm mounting screw-holes. If there is damage, the cartridge body should be discarded.
If the screw threads are in good shape and the cartridge body is free of gouges, severe scratches and dings, the cartridge needs to be taken apart completely. This includes heating the body in an oven to break all of the adhesive joints bonding the internal components together, and punching out the interference-fitted mounting screw inserts.
This will be followed by deep cleaning / degreasing the body, stripping off the anodizing or plating (which will trigger a minor shrinkage in body dimensions), shot-peening, re-buffing if the cartridge should have a mirror finish, and then applying a new anodizing / plating / coating.
Next replacements for for all wearable components must be readied (stylus, cantilever rod, joint pipe, armature, coils, suspension wire, dampers, grub screws, magnets, front magnet carrier, output block, output pins, mounting screw inserts).

Once the combination of new and refurbished componentry has been prepared, the cartridge "rebuild" can start. Finally!

Given the high amount of labor and time required to completely strip down and refinish the cartridge body, it has proven easier and faster to simply start with a completely new set of components, build a new cartridge, provide that new cartridge as a rebuild, and take a haircut on the difference in pricing between new and rebuild.

IOW, although we may refer to or provide a cartridge as a rebuild, in nearly all cases it will be a brand-new cartridge.

We have avoided "retips", as this implies that only a bare minimum of componentry will be replaced, which is at odds with taking pride in our craftsmanship and attention to detail (each Lyra cartridge is individually auditioned using electrostatic headphones, compared against a reference unit, and adjusted and voiced until it plays and sounds as close to the reference as possible).

I cannot comment on the policies of other MC cartridge manufacturers, but the situation should not be dissimilar for any brand who aims to provide the customer with a "rebuilt" cartridge that is free of all blemishes and performance that is the very best that it can be.
What determines the cost of a rebuild then becomes the manufacturer's production cost for a new cartridge (since in most cases a rebuild and brand-new cartridge are the same thing, only with different naming), how much of a haircut they are willing to tolerate on the difference between new and rebuild pricing, how much margin the importer / distributor needs, how much margin the dealer accepts, and the tariff / tax rate.

Non-manufacturer retips have a major pricing advantage due to the transaction being conducted directly between customer and service provider - no importer / distributor margin, and no dealer margin. But in return, much of the componentry that should be replaced, won't be.

This doesn't mean that all cartridges will not perform satisfactorily unless every potentially wearable component is periodically replaced. However, as a manufacturer we have to aim for top performance and build quality in 100% of our cartridges, and a belt-and-suspender approach (which may seem overly cautious and conservative to the budget-minded customer) is the only way to assure this.

FWIW, I discuss related issues that may interest you in two posts on the following Lenco Heaven forums page.

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=44559.30

hth, jonathan

@jcarr  Thank you for taking the time to share your insights and experiences with us. I do not know about others, but I appreciate understanding the challenges and issues a cartridge manufacturer goes through to bring a product to market and take care of their customer base. Your insights give us a glimpse of all the facets our analog rigs go through to bring us music. Once again, thank you. 

@jcarr 

Thanks so much for posting this. I am a happy owner of both Atlas Lambda SL and Atlas Lambda Mono (Joe Harley talked me into it  ). These are great, great cartridges and I have saved this information you posted for future reference. 

I keep my records cleaned with a Degritter II and use SPT before every listening session. I use the provided carbon brush to wipe the stylus after every record. 

These cartridges sound so fantastic. I love playing my records, new and old. I also have a DV XV-1s but haven't used it in a while.

I now own 2 used and 1 NOS MM AT160ml cartridges with advanced micro linear stylus on BERYLLIUM Cantilevers. They sound fabulous, I highly recommend them.

Has anyone found someone who can eventually retip Beryllium_________?

I'm seeing Steve and Ray at VAS on Tuesday to pick up a rewired tonearm and AT33PTG/II Mono Cartridge with retipped cantilever. The cantilever and tip was new, I heard it when I picked it up, never mounted or played here for over 2 years, but last week finally mounted it, found the tip mysteriously gone. __it happens.

I never had an OEM tip disappear or fall off, anybody ___?.

 

I never had an OEM tip disappear or fall off, anybody ___?.

Yes, I had a stylus unexpectedly come off my DV XV-1s. Dynavector took care of it under warranty.

Steven Leung of VAS delivered my repaired Dynavector 17D3 to me at AXPONA. Excellent work and a very easy guy to deak with. I appreciate his work.

Great discussion!

I retip beryllium all the time.  Most common retip for me is the Micro Acoustics MA 2002e.  Utterly fantastic cartridge.  I’m a bit obsessed with them.  Original diamond was a round shank .2 x .7 mil elliptical.  I have square shank .2 x .7 mil elliptical that will fit inside the round shank.  I can also surface mount diamonds to it when necessary, say if you want a low profile half height Fritz Gyger FG 2 on it because I can’t get a full size one to fit in the original hole.  I can’t drill beryllium because its dust is highly toxic.  
https://www.instagram.com/p/DCcAqKVO9pr/?igsh=enJ2OGcyamgzNGw2

Other brands of cartridge that used beryllium back in the day that so I have retipped are Audio-Technica and Yamaha.  I really can’t think of other manufacturers that used beryllium except for maybe some very early Dynavector.

I also retip sapphire and ruby and hollow sapphire and hollow ruby, though the hollow ones are very very rare.