@geoffkait The Swedish Super Car Keonnegsig is worth 10 million bucks. Are you going to boycott them?
The body is made from composite carbon fiber - What!? No Graphene??? A 10 million dollar car and no Graphene - they aint getting any of my business, I'll tell ya that!!........Jim
The Stig crashed one on Top Gear. Koenigsegg left the rear spoiler off for higher top speed. The Stig spun it and crashed. I thought it was very telling about the influence of that show that Koenigsegg immediately sent them another one with the spoiler on.
The price tag on the Agera is 2.1 million. I might have missed the 10 million dollar one.
Must sound 24,000 times better than the $1.00 cables that comes in box. The problem is not the seller, it is the buyer. Or maybe these cables are really hollow and exported from Colombia?
"The Swedish Super Car Keonnegsig is worth 10 million bucks."
You did not miss anything. That is with about $5 000 000 of optional equipment. Depending on the model, maybe a few million more. $10 000 000 might have been, I am afraid, yet another "fact" pulled out of a fertile imagination to support some irrelevant statement.
There is a real difference between those that listen to an expensive cable and buy this cable because they hear a difference and a tourist like jhills (and others) that never listen to this cable due to preconceived notions but feel compelled to comment. In my world, people that comment on things with which they have no experience are called fools.
Here’s why the Koenigsegg Agera RS1 is worth $10 million. There is a reason for everything. Oh, it has extras? You mean like an extra 500 hp? Well, isn’t that the point? 😳
@jsautter In my world people who believe in unbelievable things are called fools.
The point of that (in kind) response is simply to point out that there is no foolishness at all in deciding not to pursue something that does not make sense and has no credible science behind it ($24 000 interconnect), especially not based on the recommendations of unknown people on the internet. The fact that you have to attack and insult people who don’t share your views is pretty telling in my opinion.
I use live and extremely rare rattlesnakes to connect my DAC and pre-amp and the results are wonderful. And if you doubt that but haven’t tried it you are a fool, right? Or maybe just a "tourist"? Maybe you’ll claim that’s an ad absurdum argument since certainly no one uses rattlesnakes. But have you tried the $24,000 cables mentioned by the OP? Do you doubt at all that they are worth every single penny? If so....again, the word "tourist" seems to fit.
@taras22 Can you give us a hint as to what goes into a $22k speaker cable ? Like cost of material and man hours to building one (2 meter pair) ? Because I have no idea.. All I can do is picture a pair of them cables held up next to a brand new 2018 Nissan Sentra and scratch my head how can they cost the same.. ????
"Here’s why the Koenigsegg Agera RS1 is worth $10 million."
It appears that the number assigned to a semantic trick "worth" is presenter’s opinion and not actual price of the car ("It cost the owner $4 000 000", or something like that). In that same manner, that particular car is worth about $30 000. I could now go on and explain why I think so, and be as correct as anyone who thinks of some different number, but will not waste time.
"...people that comment on things with which they have no experience are called fools."
In fact, many people who comment without experience are called "visionaries". Some of them make progress possible by thinking in advance and not wasting time and effort with trial and error.
At the same time, one could debate what people who cannot conclude anything without first having experience with it should be called.
O.K. fair enough. I didnt think that I had to spell this out but I guess it is necessary. I havent heard these interconnects so I will not comment on them directly, which is as it should be. When I think of the best cables I do not include the usual players like: MIT, Transparent, Synergistic, Tara, Kimber, Audioquest or pretty much most of the cable manufacturers that advertise or get reviews. All told the retail cost of my cables for my entire system is probably around 9K and the retail of my entire system is about 85K.
I am not going to try to convince anyone on this forum that they should buy a 22K interconnect or that this interconnect is worth this amount of money. What I do know is that I have heard major differences in cables and in some cases have heard cables that sell for a few thousand dollars that soundly trounced cables from some of the above that cost over 10K. I think the key here is that I hear differences and I will not discount the possibility that a 22K cable will sound better than a 12K cable. To ascribe a limit to what a component should cost is truly a fool's errand and I cant possibly guess what would be the motivation to make such a judgement. Worse still is when you visionaries decide that people who overspend on such items do so out of some weakness or deficiency.
Passenger? Well since I've been an audiophile, or at least a well engaged enthusiast, for about 40 years now and I was, until the closing of their US factories, a master machinist and field tech for one of the largest electronics and apparatus manufactures in the world; as well, have managed construction crews and owned and operating three successful small businesses - not quite sure what, in your mind, might qualify me as a passenger, but have at it. I do, in fact, know a good deal about cords and cables and am pretty good at separating fact from fallacy....Jim
@jsautter"What I do know is that I have heard major differences in cables and in some cases have heard cables that sell for a few thousand dollars that soundly trounced cables from some of the above that cost over 10K."
What you have given us is a testimony. And based on the fact that few if any of us know anything actually verifiable about you there is no reason for us to trust your testimony. Now, it would be foolish of me to argue with you about what you heard and didn't hear. That's like arguing with someone about their favorite color. But it is not "foolish", nor does it make one a "tourist"( your words) to doubt testimony we read on the internet. It would be foolish to do otherwise.
And the thing is, other folks with equally good internet credentials as you have tried various cables of various prices and do not hear a difference.
So when I'm confronted with a claim for a phenomenon that may not have good, reproducible objective support and in some cases defies common sense, then in terms of a rational approach it makes more sense to accept the testimony of those who have tested and not experienced the phenomenon than those who have tested it and did experience it. It is a fine line because we're dealing with super weak evidence. We could be dead wrong but it is not "foolish" to approach it that way.
And if there is no point at which someone will say that they can no longer suspend rational belief.....like when confronted with $22,000 interconnects then it is also not foolish to suspect that they may have approached $1000 interconnects with the same suspension of rationality. Again, we might be wrong, but not foolish.
"...when you visionaries decide that people who overspend on such items do so out of some weakness or deficiency."
Why is it overspending? It is simply spending a relatively unusual amount. It is hard to imagine it being done out of weakness. Maybe just out of having nothing else to buy anymore.
Well, keep in mind what a billionaire told me - never try to outbid a billionaire in an auction. It was at a charity auction. I kept bidding and kept losing every bid. After the auction, he came over and thanked me. I said, "For what, I didn't win a thing!" He told me I drove up the prices and soon hot bidding started, which was very soon way, way out of my price range. As a result, the charity got a lot more money than if I had kept my mouth shut. The fact is, they have more disposable income in one year than any normal person grosses in a decade or three.
So, take your gross salary, divide it into a billion, then take your disposable income and multiply it by the quotient. See? $24,000 is chump change.
While it’s true that to some, $24,000. is chump change, it’s also true that (by many, many times) there are more, right here in the US. who make less than that for a year of working wages. Regardless - $24,000 has no equation to the true science, value or performance of a 1M pair of IC cables. Put lipstick on a pig - it’s still just a pig with lipstick, no mater how high the bid goes.....Jim
@jhills - You are absolutely correct. I do believe that is the reason for so many naysayers - no science to back up what you hear implies marketing hype. And, there is plenty of that to go around in this industry.
To clarify: I do not believe that all cables sound the same, but I do know, for a fact, that all cables of the same length built to the same established standards of low capacitance, low inductance and low resistance, using quality conductors and connectors - will sound the same. Which is to say they will pass an un-colored, un-obstructed signal from component A to component B. After all, isn't that the purpose?.......Jim
$24k cables is certainly an insult to working people but so are many other things. $3k bottle of wine is even worse, as an example. As for the sound, it's another point. Anyway, $100k monoblocks and $50k turntables sound reasonable compared to that.
Well, that is it - He needs the bucks for his attorneys. If he faked US made products, he is probably faking the sound quality of $24,000 interconnects. Even if he is not, I wouldn't buy from him.
"...a local cable manufacturer’s office this week, seizing more than $600,000 — worth of cables...
"Officers seized more than 42,000 cables..."
Apparently, officers were a bit more realistic and did not value cables much more than those from Home Depot.
It still remains that the company was preparing for, guessing it, 20000 customers for their cables. That is a lots of people for one manufacturer of a product that is, at best, used for entirely non-essential indulgence at high price.
Many audio things labeled as Made In USA contain parts that come from outside the US. I have products that are Made In USA that contain batteries made in China. I have products that are Made In USA that contain crystals from all over the world, Brazil, India, wherever. They’re still made in the US. Designed and assembled. There is no standard for what should be labeled Made In USA. Some things are Designed in USA, assembled in China. Is Apple an American product or Chinese? Some technology Made In USA is stolen and produced outside USA.
Weren’t the ubiquitous Continuous Cast Copper conductors a Japanese invention?
A couple years ago there was someone who compiled a compendium of audiophile products that were Made In the USA, including those that contained parts made outside USA. To whit,
@rja +1 I would add, for those buying $24K interconnects, at least know how to evaluate them. I wouldn’t buy a $24K car without test driving it so at least hear the interconnects in your own system and decide whether the sound is worth $24K to you before you commit to purchasing them.....then it won’t matter what the reviewers say, how many on A’gon like them, where they are designed, sourced, or assembled, or the consensus of this thread.
The autopac rules and regs supplied the designations for ’made in the usa’ or ’made in canada’.
That number, is 10% or more of the whole manufacturer’s VALUE, in cash expense/costs --attached.
That a PC can be entirely built out of Chinese and Asian parts at $1000, but assembled, tested and software installed by the ’manufacturer’ at $101 at factory floor costs (assigned as a number by the manufacturer), all done in America or Canada.
This allows the company to attach a ’made in America’, or ’made in Canada’ sticker. 100% legal and correct in the spirit of the law and letter of the law.
Otherwise all the cars you drive would very much be of foreign origin. Any Ford, or Chevy, etc.
That’s what Tara was basically doing, but were raided, and the us customs was probably egged on, repeatedly... by competition who wanted them to go away.
The audio business can get ugly and has been quite ugly at times.
However, one can’t just remove a label, put the item in a box and call it ’made in America’.
One has to prove those (minimum 10%) expenses as a correctly derived reality, if asked to do so. It’s an honour system and runs decently enough. Like the RoHS compliance system for the EU.
I could care less what the rich blow their big bucks on. The problem I have is the fact that the sham of $20K+ IC cables is an insult to the legitimate manufactures and designers of fine audio gear, that's price tag has some relation, in actual value, to the price charged. It's my fear that sound engineering and equitable good products will give way to bogus claims and inflated prices and that will become the new norm of the fading HEA.
As an avid outdoors-man, I have spent a good deal of $$$ over the years, to buy quality gear. Along with expensive fire arms and scopes, one of my favorite items is a pair of $2,200. Swarovski EL binoculars - now valued at about $3,000.00. Some of the best field optics in the world are made by Swarovski and Lica and unlike magic cables, their products have a lifetime warranty and hold their value. In either case their best binoculars and field scopes (coveted by outdoors-men and professional field workers around the world) range from around $2.5K - $3.5K for binocs and $3K - $4K for field scopes. Doubtful that either of these fine companies would ever stoop to the level of some audio cable makers and come up with the idea they can build a pair of glasses and claim to have optics coated with graphene, moon dust and dark matter, so they can stick a $24K price tag on them to satisfy the egos of the rich......Jim
@ketchup That's the thing, it's all relative I originally went from a Radio
Shack interconnect to a $100 Duelund. That's a multiplier of about 50x.
It's only relative to a point. Beyond that point, it becomes a lie and a sham. Dueland's $100.00 un-shielded cable is actually quite good for a reasonable cost and their $120.00 shielded cable is also decent, if you need shielding. Shielding on IC cables usually does more harm than good and the layers and layers of fancy wrapping and garbage that the high dollar cable dudes sleeve over their China made, mediocre conductors, is a farce. There are few 1M ICs that would sound much better than what you have and 0 that would sound 2,400 times better. Rest well knowing you have a quite decent set of cables and enjoy the music......Jim
The percentage argument is a common one, but ignores an important issue. A $100 cable is 10 times the price of a $10 one, the dollar amount of that difference being $90. A $1,000 cable is also 10 times the price of a $100 one, but the dollar amount of THAT difference is $900. The $90 and $900 dollar amount of difference bear the same percentage relationship to each other as do the prices of the two groups of cables, but my opinion is the $810 difference makes the cases quite different.
I have no idea how much a system would need to cost to make a single $24,000 cable proportionately justifiable. And that assumes the cable's price is proportionate to it's sound quality, a mighty big assumption.
Here we are in 2019 and I remain amused at the justice warriors throwing out rulings such as;
"a farce, marketing hype, non-essential indulgence, gullible, bogus claims, insult (to working people), insult (to "legitimate" manufacturers), defies common sense, a lie and a sham....etc., etc...."
In the absence of fraud or some other illegality, whether people buy these high-priced cables (or fuses, or cars, or clothes, or art, or wine, etc.) becomes simply a value proposition. Some (maybe most here) would argue when you purchase cables you are paying for a sonic outcome....i.e., how do the cables affect the "sound" of your system? Others seem to believe the price of something must bear a relationship to the cost of the parts and materials, or must meet some standard of affordability to the masses. However, value is subjective and in the case of high-priced cables the evaluation of a purchase could include appearance, status, or other reasons in addition to the sonic effect. How can anyone judge the value an item holds for another individual, when value is both personal and subjective. There are people who might pay $50K for a work of art that I wouldn’t trade a cup of coffee for. OTOH, if I pay $10K for a bicycle, I am sure there are many that cannot envision the value of that.....don’t they all have two wheels, two pedals, and roll down the road? We all vote with our wallets and (in the absence of fraud or some other illegality) that is how our system of free enterprise works. In the wise words of @jsautter ;
"To ascribe a limit to what a component should cost is truly a fool’s errand and I cant possibly guess what would be the motivation to make such a judgement."
Or, in the words of @rja ;
"Why don’t you guys turn your attention to something worth discussing?"
Obviously this was some kind of troll. Give me a break. I know of only one person who has $24,000 interconnects. Don’t get your panties all twisted up. It’s not some kind of new trend. I don’t even have interconnects. Nobody’s pointing a gun at your head. 😳 What could possibly be next? $15,000 cartridges? $120,000 turntables?
@glupson. thanks for the ebay link showing the crazy vhs price for beauty and the beast. I have a box full of old vhs movies including the beauty and the beast in boxes under my staircase. New speakers!! lol
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