Network optimization for serious streamers

Someone really needs to offer audiophiles double blind test with exact same lineup of major equipment, one modded and tuned, other with no optimization.  Which system wins this shootout? All I know is that I've benefit tested much equipment/variables over the years, new variable goes in and out, try to test one variable at a time. Benefit of new variables is either positive, negative or just different.

I have been testing streamers and DACs the last 2 weeks. The way I compare 2 paths to music (streamer and/or DAC) is to use my Benchmark LA4 preamp with RCA or XLR pairs of sources. I then stream from ROON with GROUPED streaming option. This sends the same stream to 2 ROON endpoints. I can switch between the 2 inputs on my LA4 preamp to immediately hear both on the same passage of music. Not really scientific but I find it useful and have been able to easily hear difference. Especially, if I listen with my RAAL SR1a or CA-1a headphones.

My recent conclusion was the Jon Swenson designed OpticalRendu is awesome and compares favorably to the streamer in the Lumin X1 fibre. I preferred the OpticalRendu by a bit feeling it sounded a bit more refined. I also found that the previously unimpressive Jon Swenson designed EtherRegen was actually very useful as an FMC connected to my network switch. Then fibre from the EtherRegen to either the Lumin X1 or OpticalRendu .

So, after hearing and comparing streamers and DACs I bought into the snake oil pitch. Infact, Swenson suggested in a paper or post to use a FMC in front of fibre. I was going to sell the EtherRegen but I am glad I kept it to try in front of the fibre.

BTW - my streaming setup uses Powerline adapters for 2 rooms of 4 rooms, a cheapo computer for ROON Core, and non-audiophile network switches. This can lead to some crap sound, and it did. My main approach to tackle my non-audiophile network was to use fibre and LPS on the Rendu's. It has worked amazingly; I am not touching this setup anymore.

The idea of a well-engineered streamer made with quality parts doing a good job of fixing networking problems makes sense to me. Unfortunately, those products are usually well out of my price range, leaving me to focus on low-cost tweaks discussed here and elsewhere.

I've been spending some time on whatsthebest forum since my last post. Looks like there's some agreement over there that the Arris SB8200 Surfboard is the best performing modem at a reasonable price. My ISP-supplied modem is an Arris that has 3.1 DOCSIS like the surfboard and doesn't show up on the bad modem list you may have seen. So I'm sticking with it.

There's also some consensus on the Ubiquity EdgeRouter X as a the preferred stand-alone router. Cheap, better sounding than most any alternative (reportedly), has the option to deploy virtual LAN networks that my current TP Link AX50 does not, and ethernet ports can be turned on and off. I have one on order and plan to set the AX50 in access point mode to serve wifi to the rest of my house in a separate box. Hoping the DX Engineering IsoPlus filters do enough job of isolating. Didn't think of controlling Roon from my laptop plugged into the EtherRegen (rest of network rig in another room) during the few times the kids aren't online and I can shut the wifi down (thanks @sns).

Still have some hesitation about leaving the Cisco 2960 switch in the chain between the router and the ER, done primarily to use its SFP that gets fiber in the chain. There is an EdgeRouter model that has an SFP port that would allow me to cut the Cisco out altogether, in case the Cisco's SFP is as noisy as suggested and three switches aren't better than two (I believe Uptone's John Swenson said more switches can be better if upstream noise is well-minimized ). Like with the other tweaks I've made, will have to listen and see.

I wish I had more money and time to buy, listen, sell, and buy again. Contributors in forums like these have really helped me close those capacity gaps with thoughtful information that's allowed me to learn a ton and make informed decisions about changes to my system that have it sounding really good right now. Deeply appreciative for that.

@coppy777  always comes down to that huh? Why? My system is plenty resolving and perfect for my residence.

That’s not the issue you describe, you has a real audible issue that by your own statements none of these “audiophile” Ethernet products did anything to fix, even though that is their claim to fame. That is the issue at large, and my exact point.
 

now your actual issue, if you put a strong radio right next to sensitive equipment, you can expect issues. However, two interesting things, your expensive equipment picked up a tick and a background noise. By moving the Eero away, you proved that the Ethernet components did not introduce the noise, rather, it was picked up directly by the equipment. To me, the ticks would come from the DAC, and the background noise would come from the tubes, just a guess though.

Here is Hans Beekhuyzen take on why Ethernet switches influence the SQ, 

Education @fredrik222 ? All you have done is belittle people that are looking into Ethernet enhancements or improvements.

Did you view the video by Hans?

You will belittle Hans and call it all snake oil. Hypocrisy at its finest.

why I try to educate people? Because it helps some. I have received several direct messages saying something along the lines of “thank you, I thought I was going crazy with all these Ethernet “upgrades”. that are supposed to do something, but I can’t hear a difference at all”. Which makes enduring you worth it.

@jerryg123 Hans, sure, he can’t argue and bans people who call his mistakes and misconceptions out. Nothing changes. 
 

what you are still missing, and you too @lalitk, there are just things Ethernet cannot do, and than includes improvements to SQ. You don’t understand the technology and have shown you have no interest in learning either, which makes you susceptible snake oil. That is as tested as time itself.

and in this thread, you have a guy who literally said the  “audiophile” Ethernet did nothing, he had all sorts of issues with noise with “audiophile” Ethernet switch and cables. On top of that, the manufacturer of the DAC told him to remove it.

 Linus showed why theses switches are just a scam. No one can argue anything else, because as soon as you get into actual technical details, you find out that people like John Swenson of Uptone made up things that do not exist to make it sound audiophile like. 

Actually he was told to remove the shielded cable.

Only the facts man. @fredrik222 you seem to have an issue with the fact. 

dCS recommends feeding signal to it by ethernet, not USB.  So my eero modem/router/WiFi was two feet from my audio system.  I was getting some non volume sensitive tick, tick tick noise in the left channel of the c-j tube preamp.  And a very low level of hiss like noise in both channels.  dCS also suggested for best results, to use unshielded ethernet cables.  So, I benched all the Cat7-8 Wirewold/Nordost and Audioquest Diamond stuff and replaced them with high quality unshielded Cat 5 cables and got a nice upgrade in sound quality

@jerryg123 i guess you missed Nordost, AQ and Wireworld? 
 

Doesnt really matter, lots of noise and issue, Ethernet had nothing to do with it. 😂

Thank you @lalitk for sharing the video from Hans. A nice explanation of the issues with switches that some manufacturers work hard to resolve. And a tempered/qualified endorsement of the now way-inexpensive Cisco 2960, which I modded to power by LPS rather than internal SMPS, as I mentioned earlier. Expecting that addresses at least a portion of the issues at a price that's easy to pay. The ER was well above that cost threshold, but my ears say it was worth it.

Lalitk, yours among others has been a voice I've come to respect and trust over the years. It's so valuable when people like you, Hans, Swenson, and several others on this forum offer up well-considered information and experience for the benefit of our community - recognizing there's so much that's system-dependent and particularly with networking, not completely understood. More than just with audio, I've grown to be more appreciative that no one is right, and while we may disagree with other's opinions', we can't disagree with their experience. Only learn and grow from it.

Cheers - 

So that was a new video from Hans that I had not seen. But basically he is saying that as long as you stay digital nothing matters, it's only when you go from Digital to Analog that you an introduce issues.

Which is not correct to start with, if you have a bad connection, you will have packet drops, which can lead to issues. 

Second, it implies a fundamental ignorance of Ethernet. Ethernet is 100% digital and it is a point to point protocol. What does that mean? It means that the signal generated only goes between two ports, whatever information is transmitted is read of the wire, not propagated to the next point. So, an incoming port reads what's on the wire, recreates it, checks that it was correct (CRC), and then retransmits it to the next hop. Which means, anything that the wire picked up the form of noise doesn't matter. 

Now to jitter, another fundamental ignorance of how streaming works period. First you need to know that steaming is not a continuous stream when you are playing from for instance QuBuz, it's a download. When you select a song, that song is downloaded immediately, and the next song in your playlist is also downloaded immediately. Very short burst traffic. This download goes into your network player buffer, who in turn queues it for the DAC. 

So, jitter during the download does not matter, to a certain point. What does a certain point mean? It means if you have seconds of jitter, you will cause the overall protocol stack to timeout, and then it dies. But that would be over a really bad satellite link to get into seconds of latency and jitter. 

Back to the discussion.

While I am waiting for my wireless access point to be delivered today, it occurred to me that I should be able to turn my wifi in my router on and off while streaming from Qobuz and still being able to control Qobuz with a wired laptop; and I could, easily. (After you push SAVE it takes my router about 10 seconds for implementation.) Bless SNS, he was right. A subtle veil could be easily added or subtracted with the wifi blanket and the effect immediately perceived. Something for you to play with and hear for yourself! The one thing I BELEIVE is my ears!!

Well, we were going along fine until the usual suspects entered picture. @fredrik222 you continue to mention only John in your attacks, try out Ed Meitner for some elucidation on jitter and clocks.

And so we have the usual, usual argument that what many of us hear is delusional, don't trust your senses, all is snake oil comments. What these people are saying is experiential learning, knowledge is not to be trusted. Their arguments are based on pedantic/reductionist/totalitarian logic, the idea there is this set of 'biblical' facts that are simply irrefutable. There are no more known unknowns, every single fact has been investigated, no point to further investigation, the truth has been arrived at, PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION. This being the case, we are now considered fools, tools of high end audio industry, and worse, we are now considered heretics. Always notice they love to use the word, 'educate', yes they are the high priests of truth, we need to be educated, or perhaps whipped and bullied into compliance.

And so here we are at Audiogon forum,  along with whatsbest and audiophilestyle forums, all homes to those who still believe in experiential learning. We are individuals that HEAR differences, good, bad and indifferent with all kinds of audio equipment. Some of us want to know why we hear those differences and others just enjoy the ride. It is curious why the 'truthbearers' visit these forums. Is it to provoke, laugh, deride, oh forgot, educate.

Now, to give the 'truthbearer' the benefit of the doubt. I can think of three reasons for their 'beliefs'. First is they never heard a system capable of delivering sense of real, live performers in room, their own systems compete with or beat the best they've heard so assumption is this is best one can do. Second is they have heard systems superior to their own, but simply live in denial this is so. Denial would come from having heard a system that was tweaked and tuned, since these tweaks and tunes CAN'T work they DON'T work. Third reason would be physically based, the idea not all of our listening senses are equal, the brain/ear complex may be less acute in some people, they can't hear the differences we hear with audio systems. I can relate to this as my visual/brain complex must not be as advanced or acute as some in that I can't differentiate between many of these high end televisions. I've been though a number of them, I can't see much of difference between many models, price tiers, they all kind of look the same to me. I also read these articles that explain how to calibrate for best picture, my choices never correlate to these calibrations! So many more tweaks available, stands, power cords, etc. I have tried any number and can't really see difference.

In any case this is my last post in retort to what I suppose we call 'objectivists'. I quit the cable, power, etc arguments some time ago, this is last for network.

I'm not trying to 'educate' or enlighten anyone, simply suggestions for improving network that may or may not work for people. Others here doing the same thing. We all don't expect everyone's going to find our particular network paths to be supreme, the open minded discover for themselves best path forward. This doesn't bother me in the least, I'm not some guru, I learn far more than I teach. I've done the NO TWEAK, NO TUNE thing, didn't work for me, seems to bother those with need to be the head supremo.

@sns Don't know who that is, but happy to read and learn, if you have any links. 

Jitter matters a lot in the ADC DAC processes, however, network jitter is not relevant for this. 

@sns Sir thank you for starting this insightful discussion and I apologize for taking the troll's bait.  Like a few here these trolls look for key elements in a thread and pounce on keywords and phrases. Makes me wonder if they are Russian or ASR bots.🤣😂🤣

Ed Meitner is principle at EMM Labs, one of the earliest investigators into jitter and it's affects on sound quality. You'll find his views on EMM Labs website, he also contributes to various forums at times, perhaps you could also communicate via email. He is real believer in clocks and having those clocks situated closest to circuits they're affecting.

Based on Ed and other's, jitter greatly affects both timing/flow and sound staging, Sense of digititus or differentation between analog and digital comes from human's acute sensitivity to jitter, ever vanishing jitter levels are greatly responsible for rather recent experience of digital competing with very highest vinyl setups. Sound staging also major contributor to sense of ease, being able to perceive actual performers in room, hearing deep into recording. More organized and enlarged sound staging much further separates individual performers, allowing us to hear their individual contribution to the whole, much more lifelike! All I can say is after having heard any number of world class vinyl setups from mid 70's-around 2010's, this at audio shows and dealers, I know what top flight vinyl sounds like. To keep it simple world class vinyl reproduction sounds like performers in room, streaming digital is  capable of same! Streaming can now be your one and only reference quality source, physical media no longer needed. Just like any reference source care must be taken in setup.

@sns Many thanks for sharing this insight! I am sitting here simply gob-smacked while listening to my favorites with the windshield wiped to a new transparency. 

Until your next discovery.

Sad that people cannot converse civilly.  I tried to bridge the gap here:

- Some with engineering backgrounds use their education as an end point. They know all that needs to be known.

- Others with engineering backgrounds use their education as a starting point. They use their knowledge-base as a platform to launch into more learning. (eg: @almarg RIP)

AudiogoN seems to attract many of the former. Little do they realize that they’re bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Their argument about ’bits are bits’ is no different than 'power cords don’t make any difference'. They simply place theory over practice. Their loss.

_ _ _ _

What is both amusing and annoying is their repeated and redundant postings. It’s like a frustrated tourist in a foreign country who raises their voice when trying to communicate poorly in a different language. Maybe shouting will help the other person understand better. LOL.

I’d say that applies to both sides here.  Maybe not everyone on either side.  But both sides have their shouters.

@agirard

I appreciate your kind words. I completely agree with what you stated, while we may disagree with other’s opinions; we have an opportunity to learn and grow from others experiences. Keeping an open mind is the key to amazing discoveries!

Here is my theory that squares things with the network packet objectivists.

The upstream network gear has various high frequency oscillators and pcb design approach that creates noise that rides down the chain via ground, shielding and skin effect from component to component. This noise does not effect data packet transfer, ERC or any of the things the trolls are continuously ranting about.

But that noise will negatively effect the DAC and it’s analog output stage.

This explains why doing things like fibre conversion has such great reported results, because it breaks this noise chain. Also explains why LPS or proper power supply design in custom exotic switches result in sound quality gains at the end of the chain. Again, nothing here is contradicting the network data packet transfer operation, it works fine beneath these other issues. 

I can’t argue with the theory of the electrical noise but wouldn’t, logically, a well designed streamer endpoint or DAC be able to defeat/reject that without the tweaks?

Mostly, it seems to me, there is a lot of analog style logic applied to digital.  

@jji666 I like the conversation. The only thing I'd add is many of us advocating simply experiential learning and/or enjoyment, not advocating for a certain product or scheme. The idea is simply try it, you may or may not like result, that's perfectly ok. The ideas being propagated here aren't costly or meant to extract money from people, so whats the major harms being done here. Even in cases where individuals promote costly products, I leave it to individuals to provide due diligence in making their choices, plenty of opinions out there, they have free will to choose, doesn't bother me they choose different path, product from me. Whether I believe it waste of money is of no consequence.

Question is why do the experiential learners HAVE to provide evidence/proof for what we hear. We're not advocating for some overarching truth, only providing experiential evidence of what given product/scheme brings to table. We aren't necessarily playing by KNOWN scientific/measurement rules, perhaps the proofs will follow the observations at some later point in time. This is certainly the case with much of scientific inquiry. Many of us are not scientists nor pose as one, we simply want to enjoy high quality sound from our audio systems, its for others to provide the evidence, and again that may not be available in present. Is this reason for us NOT to experiment and/or enjoy what we hear. Are you guys here to tell me I shouldn't enjoy or believe what I'm hearing because I can't provide scientific evidence for why I hear what I hear? Nah, I think I'll just enjoy what I'm hearing from my tweaked and tuned system, performers flying in and/or resurrected from dead to play in my room, WOW!

@jji666 You would think so, but consider how even how the most expensive DAC’s respond positively to better power conditioning, cables and vibration isolation. So they are not going to reject digital high frequency noise easily either.

It’s a fair point and I am not here to tell anyone what to do in their houses.  Not everyone on either side is the same though.  Sometimes newbies ask basic questions and the first answer is buy an audiophile switch or Ethernet regenerator, when the person asking the question would just be better off with a speaker or DAC upgrade.  That’s where it really gets me. 

It’s all about the music.  And I too have many things in my system just for fun.  No reason not to explore and enjoy.  Just…let’s all be a bit less dogmatic and defensive?

Another way to look at it:

It's probably safe to say the vast majority of people reading this are readers, not contributors.

Having mostly been the former, I come here to see what optimizations people have made that improve the sound.

WHY the optimization makes an improvement is interesting - and to a degree helps make the report more credible - but really is less important, at least to me, as there are few other places than forums to get the info about the tweaks that make a positive difference. @erik_squires has done that for me with room control (ended up making my own panels and traps rather than going with GIK), and millercarbon is behind my choice for the nobsound springs, which I have under every platform and rack, including speaker stands.

Anyway, it's helpful if posters can keep in mind why people come here, which based on my experience is to hear from others the system tweaks that work for them, and then decide for themselves whether they should try it. 

Thanks @lalitk.

@agisthos Yes, this is the common explanation by the knowledgeable, is logical explanation and also explains why many of these products provide benefit. And yes, noise and jitter can and is produced at each link along chain, certainly band aids after the fact can BLOCK that noise from continuing down chain, has done nothing to address that noise, jitter at point of creation, some information permanently lost, some level of jitter affecting flow/timing and sound stage has been permanently introduced. Dacs and streamers with great filtering, clocking can only work with what they've been given, I prefer giving them clean water vs sewer water,

Thank you all very enlightening.

@sns, your post 2 up seems to sum up the main point that sucked in from the beginning - do what we can to keep the signal clean from the start. Hence my suggestion of the SB2800 router and EdgeRouter X (still need to hear it when it gets here!). Also excited to see what happens by offloading the wifi. Key points at the very front end of the network I hope people who have been able to stick with us this far will take away. Would love to hear from others how this this thinking has or hasn't worked for them in terms of what they hear and how they made it happen.

Thank you all very enlightening.

In general terms I can only say all my consideration/obsessiveness in optimizing network, and previous same level of attention to shelving, footers, AC delivery, room, capacitors, resistors, voltage regulators, internal wiring, inductors, etc. within components, cables, dedicated room treatments  and some things I'm sure I'm forgetting has finally resulted in quality of sound I dreamed of attaining since first hearing high end audio in 1970's! Keeping to my overarching mantra that every link in chain is critically important in every single subsystem within the entire audio system is what's gotten me here. No one will ever convince me tuning and tweaking NOT vital to sound quality of the whole. It may sound stupid, but I could make audio system to human body analogy, all subsystems of both need to be healthy for the whole to be healthy, think holistically.

@agisthos 

Here is my theory that squares things with the network packet objectivists.

The upstream network gear has various high frequency oscillators and pcb design approach that creates noise that rides down the chain via ground, shielding and skin effect from component to component. This noise does not effect data packet transfer, ERC or any of the things the trolls are continuously ranting about.

But that noise will negatively effect the DAC and it’s analog output stage.

This explains why doing things like fibre conversion has such great reported results, because it breaks this noise chain. Also explains why LPS or proper power supply design in custom exotic switches result in sound quality gains at the end of the chain. Again, nothing here is contradicting the network data packet transfer operation, it works fine beneath these other issues. 

But this is measurable. Very easy to do so too! And none of the products do anything at all to eliminate it. That is proven by numerous people, with some focus on EtherRegen, I guess because it's the king of the hill. 

So if you take that away, what else do you have left that these products are supposed to do? Jitter? I already explained why that is not remotely relevant. "High impedance current leakage? Made up term by John Swenson that means nothing. And so on. The technical arguments made by these manufacturers are immediately debunked by people with knowledge. That means something. And as the video I posted from LTT, some products are just pure rip offs as they are literally the same product as a $30 D-Link. (Side note, this was the one Hans was referring to in his latest video).

I do not doubt that many people hear a huge difference, even when nothing is there. But that is psychology, not physics. Similar to listening in the dark vs with the lights on, did sound change? Nope, not at all. Did your brain change its interpretation, for sure. But none of that matters, it is your system, and you need to be happy, but stop pushing $500 ethernet cables on people who are just starting out. 

I use a generic optical module from Afterdak and a Sonore optical module Deluxe v2 between my Paul Pang Quad Switch and my Aqua LinQ streamer.

Both optical modules are on LPS.

Ethernet cables are the Pink Faun Lan cables and will add some FTA Metis.

I have some of the best SFP pairs : Finisar 1321, 1318, 1324, 1475 and Cisco 10G.

I also have a Ubiquiti Edgerouter X SFP that i have yet to experiment between my ISP modem and PP Switch.

Wifi on ISP modem is off.

@fredrik222 You have now said your piece multiple times - saying the same things over and over. Now go away. People like you feel a need to SPAM (yes its SPAMING) these conversations again and again with the same thing. We don't care or go into your threads on ASR doing this. It's just your opinion, nothing more.

@agisthos what’s the difference between your post and mine? People post that exact same statement over and over again, no matter how wrong it is. and it 100% false, which is a difference from my post…

And you are absolutely wrong, it is not my opinion, they are facts, easily measurable too. But this is where it is goes, every time “I can’t defend my statements, so I am going to attack the person”. And then you call people like me trolls.

When I first got into high end audio in about 2002, the industry was just starting to move away from cd players to separate DACs and transports. The exact same troll skeptic screaming and ranting was going on then in the forums - but about SPDIF cables! It was all 1's & 0's, just digital data, so no possible way any type of improved coaxial cable could make any difference, its all bit perfect. Any changes heard are all in your head, a psychoacoustic phenomena or expectation bias because you paid so much for the cable e.t.c

On an on it went but they eventually conceded SPDIF can sound different. But about 10 years later, around 2012, it started again with USB cables. Again the exact same arguments, digital data 1's & 0's, it either passes the data perfect or it doesn't, you are just a fool tricking yourself into hearing differences e.t.c

Now another 10 years later, this time network transfer. Same argument, same fury, same limited theoretical understanding of what is causing these obviously heard changes.

@fredrik222 You've made your point, until you have new information we understand where you're coming from. Lets no get into repetition of same old,  same old. Individuals are now well informed as to your opinions, up to those reading this thread to choose who to believe.

As things stand, I'm interested in the various network solutions others employ and their evaluation of sound quality.

@thieliste So this is evidence the Finisar modules will work with the Sonore equipment. Also, what are your impressions in regard to sound qualities via these transceivers? I've heard Finisar more toward precision, Cisco towards warmth. How do the Finisars differ from one another?  I'm going to install the Finisar 1475's this week between OM v2 and OR, also have the AfterDark Ref optical cable for connection between the two. This is the AfterDark Project ClayX Constellation Ref package. One can read about it here, https://www.adark.co/products/copy-of-afterdark-project-clayx-constellation-sfp-module-for-audiophile

This package could also be used between two OpticalModules feeding streamers, I'd consider this to be most extreme optimized optical scheme. Other Finisar or Cisco could also excel.

@agisthos lol. You calling others with knowledge people of “limited theoretical understanding” is hilarious. You posted something that was patently false, proven over and over again. 
 

I can guarantee I know more about Ethernet and the related protocols than you ever will. 

but, since you think you have the theory on your side, prove it. Post 1 thing supporting your statement: “

Here is my theory that squares things with the network packet objectivists.

The upstream network gear has various high frequency oscillators and pcb design approach that creates noise that rides down the chain via ground, shielding and skin effect from component to component. This noise does not effect data packet transfer, ERC or any of the things the trolls are continuously ranting about.

But that noise will negatively effect the DAC and it’s analog output stage.”

These audio divides will go on forever, we're not going to solve it here.

As for those who may be interested in possible optical network optimization, here is some info on optical transceivers. https://www.adark.co/products/copy-of-afterdark-project-clayx-constellation-sfp-module-for-audiophile

@sns That’s right most resolving and precise are the Finisar 1318 and even more the 1475.

Cisco is creamy and musical and not very resolving.

Most liquid sounding is the Finisar 1321.

I use Phoenix Contact glass fiber single mode.

@thieliste Does sound change over time with these, in other words is burn in issue?  How do all these compare to stock transciever in OM? Like to know what to expect and how sound quality may change over time. Just feel I'm in perfectly neutral position at this point, may not want to deviate too much here. Per usual, I understand won't know until I try.

@sns Yes they do sound a little harsh in the first few days, within 2 weeks they are well burned in.

I do have stock SFPs and find them really bad compared to some of the best Finisars.

I can guarantee I know more about Ethernet and the related protocols than you ever will. 

Are you sure about this statement? I am in IT and manage computer networks daily and configure, setup and install commercial grade network hardware for my clients. Sure maybe you do know more than me on this subject, but your presumptuous arrogance is typical of the theoretical know nothings who worship at Amir's alter.

When someone replaced a Cat 7 with a Cat 5 cable, you spun that into 'he removed all the audiophile stuff and it then worked' then proceeded to exaggerate this and make it the whole argument. That is a perfect example of dishonestly in argumentation and shows who you really are and the obfuscation you are willing to engage in. But this is part for the course with ASR disciples and is exactly how Amir and crew operate.

@agirard 

As @lalitk, I totally agree with your statement on 01-22-2023 at 07:49am, "while we may disagree with other's opinions', we can't disagree with their experience". This is the approach we all need to take. Instead of using logic on paper, let us try actually using some of this different componentry to achieve better sound. This is what is driving the industry now and I think it has significantly pushed digital in a good direction.

As I said before most of us are here to learn from others experiences and will determine what will work in our listening environment.

Others seek out key words and phrases like bots just to snipe and disparage. Whether these words are related to geopolitical conditions or the state of our audio experience. The snipers know whom they are. 

What did I write @01-18-2023 at 03:01pm that nobody seems to have paid attention to. The thread has virtually collapsed.