I like it but I don't know if I'm missing out.
Ah, the essence of audiophilia nervosa.
So ChatGPT falls for the typical audiophile BS about DAC's.
Keep in mind that ChapGPT just reads its training content and then organizes and spits it back, more or less. In effect it attempts to predict what the answer should be based on its training content. So if there is snake oil BS in the training material, there will be BS in the AI response.
That said I don't think R2R DACs are snake oil.
My $02 on the OP's question: get a reasonably large REL sub...they add lots of great texture when dialed in correctly. No matter the direction the OP goes from there, that sub will be a handy component. I'd start with that before diving right into the upgrade rabbit hole.
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female vocals, classic rock, ambient stuff….
I believe better speakers would be helpful, especially in the midrange weight and Sonics.
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Recently I have been playing about with XLR and RCA IC’s. There are several Youtubers advocating for trying both with any given component. I have always been a proponent of XLR’s just based on the seeming logic, but then I tried swapping out XLR for RCA to see what might happen, so the Holo May is now feeding the Serene with a pair of RCA Black Dragons from Moon Audio. It a pleasant surprise to find that with the May and the Serene the RCA’s were superior. There was a faintly warmer and more tube-like sound with no loss of detail or dynamics. or sound stage. The Serene then feeds the two Audion Mk3’s with a pair of Moon Audio XLR’s.
Technically, all these components are "balanced," but there are interactions going on that I don't quite understand.
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@tubeguy76 -
Do you think there is any appreciable difference between a true balanced circuit and Gato’s implementation? I assume as long as the circuits are well designed it should be good regardless.
Honestly, at the price point of the Gato, I would think that their design is well done. Is it "...good regardless", I would say, yes. Is it as good as a fully (or differential) balanced design, I think that is a loaded question. Just like any other piece of audio electronics, there is equipment that is well designed with good parts and crappy designs with cheap parts, balanced or otherwise. And in this hobby, there is always something better.
That is why I suggested you try using the Gato as just a preamp with the Cherry's before you change anything else. It may sound fantastic, especially with the LRS+ speakers, which love power and higher current amplification to "sing".
- Jeff
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@cleeds - I did some Googling and based on what I read, there is a slight difference between the fully (or truly) balanced and a differentially balanced circuit. Not in the fact that one is balanced and one is not, but rather on how the balanced amplification portion of the circuit is implemented. I'll be honest, the "explanations" of the difference were not clear cut on what that difference is, but some common threads had to do with the impediance matching between the positive and negative legs of the signal. I did find a quick video from Paul McGowen at PS Audio where he compares the two, but even after watching that multiple times I was still not sure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiF4sWRlsQw
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@jeffbij
Do you think there is any appreciable difference between a true balanced circuit and Gato’s implementation? I assume as long as the circuits are well designed it should be good regardless.
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... "fully balanced" being when the circuit maintains the separation of the positive, negative, and ground (i.e. ’balanced’) throughout ALL 3 sections of each channel, the input, amplification, and output ...
By your definition, an amplifier using a differentially balanced circuit isn’t "truly balanced."
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@cleeds
I'm not sure what you mean by 'two channels" and the term "fully balanced" is rather ambiguous.
(Just to stress, I am not an expert. This is just what my understanding is, which maybe wrong. So I welcome better clarification and a chance to learn.)
The two channels are the left and right channel. And what I'm referring to, and on a very basic level, with "fully balanced" being when the circuit maintains the separation of the positive, negative, and ground (i.e. 'balanced') throughout ALL 3 sections of each channel, the input, amplification, and output. This also requires that the left and right channels can not have a shared or common ground anywhere in the 3 sections.
That said, what a lot of preamps, amps, etc. will do is have a balanced input connection, to an op-amp which converts the signal to a single ended (i.e. common ground) amplification section, then back through an op-amp to a balanced output connection. (again, my simplistic understanding). Thus, while the signal is balanced in and balanced out, it is not "fully balanced" thoughout the circuit.
Which leads to the OP quote from 6moons about the Gato:
This is per 6moons regarding the AMP-150, I assume the "AE" version is identical.
"The input PCB sits near the back plate and sports NEC relays and an analog BB PGA2320 resistor-ladder IC. As a single-ended circuit, the XLR i/o ports are convenience items de/symmetrized by a TL07a chip."
- Jeff
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jeffbij
... in a fully balanced system, the 2 channels are completely separated from the input through to the output ...
I'm not sure what you mean by 'two channels" and the term "fully balanced" is rather ambiguous.
In a balanced circuit, you'll have a separate positive, negative, and ground for each channel.
... while something that just converts single ended signal (in and out) through an op-amp to XLR connections is different.
Use of operational amplifiers (such as differential amplifiers) are common in balanced circuit designs.
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Sounds like you know what you want you just aren’t hearing it in your system. I would start with your speakers and then go from there. One step and one piece of equipment at a time. Have you heard a pair of speakers that you like? Have you checked out local dealers and showrooms in your area? I would find a pair that you like and try trading in the speakers you don’t want to help pay for the ones you like. You’re on a musical journey as part of this hobby. Take it slow. Trust your ears. Stay within your budget. Make sure you can try anything you buy at home and can return for little or no fee if you don’t like the sound. Most importantly, enjoy your music and your journey.
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So, balanced connections but not a fully balanced circuit.
That's ok. Still worth getting hold of a pair of decent balanced cables and seeing how it sounds with using the Gato as a preamp with the monoblocks.
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The AE version is sonically identical … again, from Gato
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@jeffbij
This is per 6moons regarding the AMP-150, I assume the "AE" version is identical.
"The input PCB sits near the back plate and sports NEC relays and an analog BB PGA2320 resistor-ladder IC. As a single-ended circuit, the XLR i/o ports are convenience items de/symmetrized by a TL07a chip."
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@cleeds
If I was off-base, then apologies and I stand corrected....
My understanding has always been that in a fully balanced system, the 2 channels are completely separated from the input through to the output while something that just converts single ended signal (in and out) through an op-amp to XLR connections is different. Also in a non-fully balanced setup, the L and R channels share a common ground. So, wouldn't the differences in the impedience be caused by the op-amps used.
Honestly, have I misunderstood something?
- Jeff
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@gano
to me it screams that you have don't have speakers that stand out, just 3 pairs in similar range.
I would sell two pairs and upgrade.
True, none of these blow me away. They sound good in their own ways but I may need to stretch the budget a bit to get where I want to be.
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@deep_333 Lrs+ without a good servo subwoofer would be an incomplete speaker and it needs a sub’s help all the way up to around 200 hz. A pair of rythmik Fm8 subs set up on the front stage, integrated correctly should do the job.
I have a Martin Logan Dynamo 800x sub but it’s not a servo sub. It stilldoes a decent job but I haven’t heard a servo sub to compare it to.
As far as selling my speakers... I can do that. I need the space anyway. I've been looking at the Mofi speakers since they came out... they look like something I would enjoy.
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it may not be a fully balanced design with the XLR jacks a convenience.
Either the amplifier is balanced or the published specs are wrong:
Input impedance 20kΩ RCA or 40kΩ Balanced
Preamplifier output impedance 100 Ω RCA and 200 Ω Balanced
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+1 @cleeds - Agreed it looks like a balanced connection, but it may not be a fully balanced design with the XLR jacks a convenience. Either way, I would think it would be worth giving it a try. Couldn't hurt and might be eye opening with those monoblocks.
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I was told by the manufacturer it was not a balanced design ... maybe the representative was mistaken...
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The Gato has an XLR connection but is not a balanced design
It sure looks like a balanced design based on manufacturer's specs:
Input impedance 20kΩ RCA or 40kΩ Balanced
Preamplifier output impedance 100 Ω RCA and 200 Ω Balanced
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Lrs+ without a good servo subwoofer would be an incomplete speaker and it needs a sub’s help all the way up to around 200 hz. A pair of rythmik Fm8 subs set up on the front stage, integrated correctly should do the job.
Lately I’ve been running the LRS+ with the Gato integrated and Topping Velvet / iFi stream combo. I like it but I don’t know if I’m missing out.
Sell these 3 speakers and get a pair of Mofi 888 floorstanders.
You could swap between the magnepan and mofi on different days for different flavors, different music genres, etc.
Kef R3
Monitor Audio GS20 (vintage speakers from my father)
Omega Super 3 High Output Wide Baffle XRS towers
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The Gato has an XLR connection but is not a balanced design
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Depends on your room size. If you have room for a bigger pair of Maggies, it is a huge upgrade. Then consider adding a decent sub.
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@tubeguy76 - The Gato integrated has both Balanced and RCA outs. Have you tried using the Gato as a preamp with the Cherry Maraschimo monos?
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If I didn’t already have a pair of great sounding monoblocks, I would for sure try the Gato PWR-222 Mono Power Amplifiers.
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to me it screams that you have don't have speakers that stand out, just 3 pairs in similar range.
I would sell two pairs and upgrade.
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@jl35 I was just thinking - why not just bypass the fuse altogether if you're just going to replace it with a silver slug? Wouldn't nothing be better still?
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@jl35 I'm redoing my room soon and will keep that in mind. The fuse and jumper mods might be worth looking into, thank you for the suggestion.
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Yeah Jason, you have to take it with a grain of salt but it's still pretty cool.
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Go to ASR and read the test report on the LRS+ speakers. It is an eye-opener!
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So ChatGPT falls for the typical audiophile BS about DAC's. More "midrange texture"from a ladder-type DAC. So how do you measure "midrange texture"? Enquiring minds want to know!
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The LRS+ can also be very sensitive to placement and room issues, more than most speakers...I also found Mike Powell's silver jumpers and fuse replacement to improve sound on the LRS+...
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So ChatGPT recommended the following:
Final Thoughts: What Would I Do?
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Stick with the Magnepan LRS+ if you love vocals and soundstage. Maybe keep the Omegas for a different flavor.
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Consider trying a more powerful amp for the LRS+ at some point, but your Gato is doing well.
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If you want more midrange texture, consider swapping the Topping DAC for an R2R DAC.
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Sell or store the speakers you don’t use (Kef R3, GS20?) and the Cherry amps unless you plan to get a preamp.
Quite remarkable. It didn't pick up on the Cherry amps being 800 watts at 2 ohms but that's ok. I may find a decent balanced pre-amp to use with the Cherry amps and a R2R DAC and see what that gets me. I do like the Gato and will be keeping it regardless.
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@mwh777 Interesting tactic... I'll give it a go.
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Try running your questions through ChatGPT. I'm using the paid version ($20/mo.) You will get lots of input there. Providing your sound preferences is very helpful.
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I still have the Gato. It’s terrific.
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@jl35 What did you move on to from the Gato? I forgot to mention my sub, it's a Martin Logan Dynamo 800X. I inherited that from my father as well. Seems to work fine with the Gato and Magnepans.
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I had the Gato and the LRS+ ... I think the Topping and ifi are letting you down ... I also liked the LRS+ with a pair of REL T/Zero mklll subs...
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