Need advice from the gurus.

I had the Gato and the LRS+ ... I think the Topping and ifi are letting you down ... I also liked the LRS+ with a pair of REL T/Zero mklll subs...

@jl35 What did you move on to from the Gato?  I forgot to mention my sub, it's a Martin Logan Dynamo 800X.  I inherited that from my father as well.  Seems to work fine with the Gato and Magnepans.

I still have the Gato. It’s terrific. 

Try running your questions through ChatGPT. I'm using the paid version ($20/mo.) You will get lots of input there. Providing your sound preferences is very helpful.

@mwh777 Interesting tactic... I'll give it a go.

So ChatGPT recommended the following:

Final Thoughts: What Would I Do?

1. Stick with the Magnepan LRS+ if you love vocals and soundstage. Maybe keep the Omegas for a different flavor.

2. Consider trying a more powerful amp for the LRS+ at some point, but your Gato is doing well.

3. If you want more midrange texture, consider swapping the Topping DAC for an R2R DAC.

4. Sell or store the speakers you don’t use (Kef R3, GS20?) and the Cherry amps unless you plan to get a preamp.

Quite remarkable.  It didn't pick up on the Cherry amps being 800 watts at 2 ohms but that's ok. I may find a decent balanced pre-amp to use with the Cherry amps and a R2R DAC and see what that gets me.  I do like the Gato and will be keeping it regardless. 

The LRS+ can also be very sensitive to placement and room issues, more than most speakers...I also found Mike Powell's silver jumpers and fuse replacement to improve sound on the LRS+...

So ChatGPT falls for the typical audiophile BS about DAC's. More "midrange texture"from a ladder-type DAC. So how do you measure "midrange texture"? Enquiring minds want to know!

Go to ASR and read the test report on the LRS+ speakers. It is an eye-opener!

Yeah Jason, you have to take it with a grain of salt but it's still pretty cool.

@jl35 I'm redoing my room soon and will keep that in mind.  The fuse and jumper mods might be worth looking into, thank you for the suggestion.

@jl35 I was just thinking - why not just bypass the fuse altogether if you're just going to replace it with a silver slug?  Wouldn't nothing be better still?

to me it screams that you have don't have speakers that stand out, just 3 pairs in similar range. 

I would sell two pairs and upgrade.

If I didn’t already have a pair of great sounding monoblocks, I would for sure try the Gato PWR-222 Mono Power Amplifiers.

https://youtu.be/gRMqDb-t9oo?si=4zTnrm0kY9tyoJ_B

Have a look at this. 

@tubeguy76  -  The Gato integrated has both Balanced and RCA outs.  Have you tried using the Gato as a preamp with the Cherry Maraschimo monos?

Depends on your room size.  If you have room for a bigger pair of Maggies, it is a huge upgrade.  Then consider adding a decent sub.

The Gato has an XLR connection but is not a balanced design 

Lrs+ without a good servo subwoofer would be an incomplete speaker and it needs a sub’s help all the way up to around 200 hz. A pair of rythmik Fm8 subs set up on the front stage, integrated correctly should do the job.

Lately I’ve been running the LRS+ with the Gato integrated and Topping Velvet / iFi stream combo.  I like it but I don’t know if I’m missing out.  

Sell these 3 speakers and get a pair of Mofi 888 floorstanders.

You could swap between the magnepan and mofi on different days for different flavors, different music genres, etc.

Kef R3
Monitor Audio GS20 (vintage speakers from my father)
Omega Super 3 High Output Wide Baffle XRS towers

jl35

The Gato has an XLR connection but is not a balanced design 

It sure looks like a balanced design based on manufacturer's specs:

Input impedance    20kΩ RCA or 40kΩ Balanced
Preamplifier output impedance 100 Ω RCA and 200 Ω Balanced

@jasonbourne71 

Scroll over to @ 12:00 for the measurements. What was your "eye-opener" exactly?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQemV-W48b8&t=890s

Go to ASR and read the test report on the LRS+ speakers. It is an eye-opener!

I was told by the manufacturer it was not a balanced design ... maybe the representative was mistaken...

+1 @cleeds   -  Agreed it looks like a balanced connection, but it may not be a fully balanced design with the XLR jacks a convenience. Either way, I would think it would be worth giving it a try.  Couldn't hurt and might be eye opening with those monoblocks. 

jeffbij

it may not be a fully balanced design with the XLR jacks a convenience.

Either the amplifier is balanced or the published specs are wrong:

Input impedance    20kΩ RCA or 40kΩ Balanced
Preamplifier output impedance 100 Ω RCA and 200 Ω Balanced

@deep_333 Lrs+ without a good servo subwoofer would be an incomplete speaker and it needs a sub’s help all the way up to around 200 hz. A pair of rythmik Fm8 subs set up on the front stage, integrated correctly should do the job.

I have a Martin Logan Dynamo 800x sub but it’s not a servo sub.  It stilldoes a decent job but I haven’t heard a servo sub to compare it to.

As far as selling my speakers... I can do that.  I need the space anyway.  I've been looking at the Mofi speakers since they came out... they look like something I would enjoy.

@gano 

@cleeds  

If I was off-base, then apologies and I stand corrected.... 

My understanding has always been that in a fully balanced system, the 2 channels are completely separated from the input through to the output while something that just converts single ended signal (in and out) through an op-amp to XLR connections is different.  Also in a non-fully balanced setup, the L and R channels share a common ground.  So, wouldn't the differences in the impedience be caused by the op-amps used.

Honestly, have I misunderstood something?  

- Jeff

@jeffbij 
This is per 6moons regarding the AMP-150, I assume the "AE" version is identical.

"The input PCB sits near the back plate and sports NEC relays and an analog BB PGA2320 resistor-ladder IC. As a single-ended circuit, the XLR i/o ports are convenience items de/symmetrized by a TL07a chip."

The AE version is sonically identical … again, from Gato

So, balanced connections but not a fully balanced circuit.  

That's ok.  Still worth getting hold of a pair of decent balanced cables and seeing how it sounds with using the Gato as a preamp with the monoblocks. 

Sounds like you know what you want you just aren’t hearing it in your system. I  would start with your speakers and then go from there.  One step and one piece of equipment at a time.  Have you heard a pair of speakers that you like?  Have you checked out local dealers and showrooms in your area?  I would find a pair that you like and try trading in the speakers you don’t want to help pay for the ones you like.  You’re on a musical journey as part of this hobby.  Take it slow.  Trust your ears.  Stay within your budget.  Make sure you can try anything you buy at home and can return for little or no fee if you don’t like the sound.  Most importantly, enjoy your music and your journey.  

jeffbij

... in a fully balanced system, the 2 channels are completely separated from the input through to the output ...

I'm not sure what you mean by 'two channels" and the term "fully balanced" is rather ambiguous.

In a balanced circuit, you'll have a separate positive, negative, and ground for each channel.

... while something that just converts single ended signal (in and out) through an op-amp to XLR connections is different.

Use of operational amplifiers (such as differential amplifiers) are common in balanced circuit designs.

@cleeds 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'two channels" and the term "fully balanced" is rather ambiguous.

(Just to stress, I am not an expert.  This is just what my understanding is, which maybe wrong.  So I welcome better clarification and a chance to learn.)

The two channels are the left and right channel.  And what I'm referring to, and on a very basic level, with "fully balanced" being when the circuit maintains the separation of the positive, negative, and ground (i.e. 'balanced') throughout ALL 3 sections of each channel, the input, amplification, and output.  This also requires that the left and right channels can not have a shared or common ground anywhere in the 3 sections.  

That said, what a lot of preamps, amps, etc. will do is have a balanced input connection, to an op-amp which converts the signal to a single ended (i.e. common ground) amplification section, then back through an op-amp to a balanced output connection.  (again, my simplistic understanding). Thus, while the signal is balanced in and balanced out, it is not "fully balanced" thoughout the circuit.

Which leads to the OP quote from 6moons about the Gato:

This is per 6moons regarding the AMP-150, I assume the "AE" version is identical.

"The input PCB sits near the back plate and sports NEC relays and an analog BB PGA2320 resistor-ladder IC. As a single-ended circuit, the XLR i/o ports are convenience items de/symmetrized by a TL07a chip."

- Jeff

jeffbij

... "fully balanced" being when the circuit maintains the separation of the positive, negative, and ground (i.e. ’balanced’) throughout ALL 3 sections of each channel, the input, amplification, and output ...

By your definition, an amplifier using a differentially balanced circuit isn’t "truly balanced."

@jeffbij 

Do you think there is any appreciable difference between a true balanced circuit and Gato’s implementation?  I assume as long as the circuits are well designed it should be good regardless. 

@cleeds - I did some Googling and based on what I read, there is a slight difference between the fully (or truly) balanced and a differentially balanced circuit. Not in the fact that one is balanced and one is not, but rather on how the balanced amplification portion of the circuit is implemented.  I'll be honest, the "explanations" of the difference were not clear cut on what that difference is, but some common threads had to do with the impediance matching between the positive and negative legs of the signal.  I did find a quick video from Paul McGowen at PS Audio where he compares the two, but even after watching that multiple times I was still not sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiF4sWRlsQw

@tubeguy76 -  

Do you think there is any appreciable difference between a true balanced circuit and Gato’s implementation?  I assume as long as the circuits are well designed it should be good regardless. 

Honestly, at the price point of the Gato, I would think that their design is well done.  Is it "...good regardless", I would say, yes.  Is it as good as a fully (or differential)  balanced design, I think that is a loaded question.  Just like any other piece of audio electronics, there is equipment that is well designed with good parts and crappy designs with cheap parts, balanced or otherwise.  And in this hobby, there is always something better.  

That is why I suggested you try using the Gato as just a preamp with the Cherry's before you change anything else. It may sound fantastic, especially with the LRS+ speakers, which love power and higher current amplification to "sing".

- Jeff

Recently I have been playing about with XLR and RCA IC’s. There are several Youtubers advocating for trying both with any given component. I have always been a proponent of XLR’s just based on the seeming logic, but then I tried swapping out XLR for RCA to see what might happen, so the Holo May is now feeding the Serene with a pair of RCA Black Dragons from Moon Audio. It a pleasant surprise to find that with the May and the Serene the RCA’s were superior. There was a faintly warmer and more tube-like sound with no loss of detail or dynamics. or sound stage. The Serene then feeds the two Audion Mk3’s with a pair of Moon Audio XLR’s.

Technically, all these components are "balanced," but there are interactions going on that I don't quite understand.

female vocals, classic rock, ambient stuff…. 

I believe better speakers would be helpful, especially in the midrange weight and Sonics.