Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

@richopp +1 "Measurements are nice, but, as Duane asked, "How (does) it SOUND?”"

I’ve seen many very expensive installations, sounding so-so, despite perfect measurements of some components in it. “Measurement” is focused on single component, and it is done using ideal source + loading, which “improves” component performance significantly over real life scenario.  

My 2 cents:

In 1972, my band, One Nite Stand (I was going for "cheap trick" but did not think of it) was playing in Bristol (VA/TENN) at a college music fest. We were "second" to another band called The Allman Brothers Band. (We played a set, they played a set, etc.)

Naturally, we knew who they were, but they only had two albums out at that time and were basically popular regionally. Anyway, we are sitting in our motel room at the Holiday Inn around 4:00 PM with the door open and a guy with long, blonde hair walks by. Back then, anyone who had long hair was considered a "hippie" and disdained by people in small towns like this, to say the least.

We looked at each other and someone said, "Hey, I think that’s Barry Oakley from the Allman Brothers." I walked out and called, "Hey, man." He stopped, we introduced ourselves to each other, and he invited us up to their room (fellow "longhairs."). Needless to say for a bunch of 20-year-old college guys, we were thrilled. We went up to their room and met them. Our lead guitar player, David, was talking to Duane and after a while asked him, "So, man, what was it like to play with Clapton?" (Clapton had just recorded and released "Layla," and since Clapton could not play slide as well as Duane, he asked him to come to England and play that part on the record.) SO, back to the conversation:

DAVID: "Hey, man, what was it like to play with Clapton?"

DUANE: "Well, man, how did it sound?"

Kind of like my take on systems today. Measurements are nice, but, as Duane asked, "How (does) it SOUND?"

In my shop, which I opened a few years later, Magneplaner’s hooked to Audio Research gear SOUNDED the most realistic. The measurements were interesting, but to me, and many of our customers, we wanted the reproduced music to sound most like it did when we played it live. This was the combo that accomplished that goal.

Lots more to the story--watching Duane and Dickey play while standing on the side of the stage after our set was an experience I will never forget. They were "in the zone" and suffice it to say, it was magic.

So, as I asked my customers, "How does it SOUND to you?"

Cheers!

at 3:00 in, "just ridiculous, I have had speaker upgrades that made less of a difference".

@russ69 if that Australian dealer lets you audition one please let us know how it works out.

 

Maybe start with a entry level power product they carry for proof of concept, look at the reviews here on Audiolabs DC Block:

 

@russ69 , contact The Audio Tailor , a dealer in Australia, and see if they carry products you can audition:

 

 

I know nothing about GR Research and never heard of the company. 

I cannot recommend GroverHuffman or SR power cables to you because they don't come with Australian style angled three prong plugs.  

I recommend Synergistic Research power outlets, including their earliest ones which can be had cheaply but I see that they don't match your Australian cabling plugs.  Second best would be hospital grade outlets which I used for 25 years in my prior home.  I installed $50 h.g. outlets in 1993 but the problem was corrosion even in the dry climate I lived in.

I would make my own power before I considered GR Research… that assumes that the power cord does anything helpful… which, as the title of thread suggests, we have no way of knowing:

Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

@holmz  I can see you have a bag of problems trying to maximize the quality of your listening room.   Your walls are superior to typical drywall.  You have to work within your older home (some of my rental homes date back to 1914 and the 1940s, plaster walls).  I remember my 1886 group of 4 homes which also had horsehair and plaster walls, full measurement redwood beams and studs.  The 1971 earthquake got them, they probably sounded good for audio. 

In my prior home, I built it with 5/8" soundboard used for studios separated by insulation and then 5/8" X drywall (no one's going to punch a hole through).  It was on 6" 3000 psi steel reinforced slab with 2 X 8 walls, staggered 2 X 6 studs every 8" and 2' concrete footings-still very inferior to my current room.  If found florescent lighting to be much noisier than LED but incandescent in California is still available. 

I have my voice lessons by zoom in my new listening room.  Vice versa, if it's great for music it is probably great for speech/singing.  Green glue reportedly doesn't do much but sealing all joints with spray flexseal worked for me. 

I recommend Synergistic Research power outlets, including their earliest ones which can be had cheaply but I see that they don't match your Australian cabling plugs.  Second best would be hospital grade outlets which I used for 25 years in my prior home.  I installed $50 h.g. outlets in 1993 but the problem was corrosion even in the dry climate I lived in.   

I wish you good luck in putting together your video/audio room with the constraints you have.  It can be daunting (my "slightly" autistic best friend moved 5 years ago after 30+ years on a slab house to a mobile home-oh boy, he has vibration/acoustic  problems).   

 

Those people could train evangelicals.
Someone could get a Nobel prose if they could measure this stuff. 

Another video, wear your headphones, even through you tube you can tell the difference the ADD POWR conditioner makes in this quick A/B comparison at an audio show. Ask members of this forum who own the brand if they like it, be skeptical, get a trial version, blind fold your friends, give prizes for who can hear a difference. Many of the ADD POWR products are easy to "blind test" if you are so inclined. You just plug them into an available outlet in your room (it isn’t necessarily a power strip depending on which product you try) so a friend can plug and unplug the product in an available outlet while you close your eyes and listen and count how many times you can tell a change. Then change places with your friend. Is it "scientific research" No. Will it help you decide if you should return it? Up to you to decide:

 

The "Pepsi Challenge" , here is another internet reviewer that wanted "proof" about cables and his own story. I think some of our newer visitors/members have been invited to Danny's as well:

 

This is an excellent study of analog interconnects used in audio. First, note its from a peer reviewed journal, Journal of Electronics and Communication Engineering. Next, note that the author IS a scientist and has received many awards such as CASE and Carnegie US Professor of the Year. Finally, note the extensive (45) references that are listed in the bibliography. The author doesn’t post a video of himself to try and promote his own study.

The fact that this paper proves the videos and research you often see (in this thread from newer guest members) are inaccurate and incomplete is fine. You do what you can with what you got, but please don’t be so irksome about it. Please enjoy this third party, peer reviewed research from an actual award winning, highly respected scientist

An electrical study of single-ended analog interconnect cables

:

 

 

holmz I just read you last response. I don’t know what being on the scale means but I appreciate your response that,,,

I should have said “on the spectrum”…

In reference to this:

He is high functioning slight autistic so he just let loose.

 

 

If you want to confer concerning your room acoustics and/or equipment, I’m open.

Thanks but I need to set up the gear in the new house, and am not really going to be modifying the room much.

Maybe some treatments, but that is after measurements and the equipment gets set up. It is 100 year old house, so we are working it in as best as we can… which is likely similar to what many do when they do not have a spare room or basement to retreat to.

I was able to go under one part of house and put in a rack to stack wine onto and empty boxes, so that is great, but one would not want to go down the ladder if they are mentally addled.

 

There are choices depending on your budget, which can make big differences in sound quality and those that I would avoid. Other than that, your music and hearing preferences should govern your choices.

Intelligible for the HT/TV is important.
Usually I find that when the room gets easy to hold a conversation, then it is getting good for music… at least if we ignore the bass frequency room modes… which could be EQ’ed out.

 

Fortunately, there are cable and tweaks which can be auditioned for 30 or 60 days.

I am in Australia, so it is not like it is easy to do a 30 or 60 day demos.
Hence I keep asking whether there are any measurements that provide some proof.

Also I am not overly sure I can hear great differences, or at least I have not so far.
Hence I stick ith Mogami and Neutrik, and some other things like cotton jacketed cables. And I might try some Kimbers.

 

Regardless of what Amir states to be facts, you can try Synergistic Research tweaks and GroverHuffman.com cables with full refunds.

Personally I’d likely avoid the GR gear.

 

I recommend them after you have your room and system set up. If you can, use better quality and/or larger gauge internal wall wiring, separate power breakers (subpanel is possible) and a grounding rod.

Being in Australia the power is 240v/50Hz.
So whatever needs to happen on a 15A breaker here, is like a 30A breaker on 110v.
(It is all cut in half current wise,)

 

You can always upgrade power outlets (better contact, materials). They don’t have to be top of the line.

I would likely start with some measurement of the voltage, and whether there is anything happening like a diode action (cross over distortion) from say corrosion.

Various LED lights sometimes make a difference with noise injected on the power. But I only have a slight amount of hum, which is measureable but I cannot hear it.
I think it might be magnetic field, but I need to do some testing to work it out.

I like using incandescent, but they are getting harder to come across, but are great in a low light room. IMO.

 

I can’t help you on streaming equipment or DSP use.

I mostly prefer the TT, but the RME DAC seems to do just fine, and I have no issues with it streaming. And the AVP does the EQ stuff on its own.

 

If you are building your listening room from scratch, I can suggest interior wall construction and finishes which should compliment your system rather than create acoustic problems (such as use of sheet rock, voids that require in room bass traps, etc).

Good luck on your new listening room and equipment!

Yeah I have built a decoupled wall for the Haus-Boss’s old councelling room, and am familiar with the door seal arraignments, green glue and multiple layers of sheet rock. That is more for isolation than listening, but I have a couple of studios and room construction.

This house however has horsehair and plaster on lathing strips, and is really much better than any Gyprock/Sheetrock that I have heard. An old house in SoCal was also plaster over lathingh strips that was really good too. Plaster to me seems like it sounds different and better. It is much stiffer and is a composite of sorts.

For instance people do not generally put their fist through a plaster wall, where as a child can pook a hole in a plasterboard wall just by being careless with a bicycle handlebar. In comparison one needs to be more like Mohammed Ali or Bruce Lee on a 3/4” thick plaster wall, a small girl pushing a pretty pink bicycle is just not going to do it.

@coralkong +10

Your post perfectly exemplified my feelings.  Great post!

@holmz I just read you last response. I don’t know what being on the scale means but I appreciate your response that you should have phrased your statements more as questions. I spent a fortune (12% of my home price) to build my final listening room in my new home in 2019 and would not move in until it was completed (five months). I don’t use DSP. I have an excellent system with relatively inexpensive speakers. My primary acoustic tweak is the two pair of Shakti Hallographs. Unfortunately, my speakers by themselves, do not meet my imaging and soundstage expectations but I bought them to replace electrostats (Legacy Focus replaced Martin Logan Monolith IIIs). My Signature IIIs in the 2nd system maintain superior open sound due to the smart rear firing tweeter (otherwise the speakers are similar). The Focus’ sounds great in my costly listening room ($150K).

If you want to confer concerning your room acoustics and/or equipment, I'm open.  There are choices depending on your budget, which can make big differences in sound quality and those that I would avoid.  Other than that, your music and hearing preferences should govern your choices. 

Fortunately, there are cable and tweaks which can be auditioned for 30 or 60 days.  Regardless of what Amir states to be facts, you can try Synergistic Research tweaks and GroverHuffman.com cables with full refunds.  I recommend them after you have your room and system set up.  If you can, use better quality and/or larger gauge internal wall wiring, separate power breakers (subpanel is possible) and a grounding rod.  You can always upgrade power outlets (better contact, materials).  They don't have to be top of the line.  I can't help you on streaming equipment or DSP use.  If you are building your listening room from scratch, I can suggest interior wall construction and finishes which should compliment your system rather than create acoustic problems (such as use of sheet rock, voids that require in room bass traps, etc).  

Good luck on your new listening room and equipment!

@kota1 Wow, great video!!!  Equating Water delivery to Electrical Power delivery.  Exactly correct.  

@laoman Of course he is saying that, he’s a know-it-all.
"Uneven bass response in every room and power cables can’t make a difference." What nonsense is that? My friend's room was not extraordinarily bad, it was good overall and his bass was terrible. Now it’s excellent. All it took was power cable replacements, just like quality caps, improved power supply (that’s what the power cables did), et.al. I have been corresponding with another Audiogon member who has experience with Amir. Because of his relationships with local friends who are members of ASR, he doesn’t want to post his interaction. He is a many decade, major audio equipment designer for multiple companies, now working for Intel. He asked Amir to test a piece of equipment and asked him about the type of measurements. He let me know that Amir could not properly test it and had inferior/limited test gear whereas he had worked at audio manufacturers who have $2+ million test equipment. He decided not to let Amir do the testing and not join ASR’s forum (the word science is a misnomer in the name).

Amir-"A power cord will do absolutely nothing for this as this effect"-(irregular bass response in a room). RIDICULOUS. When a horribly irregular response becomes a perfectly regular response TO THE EAR when listening to it by changing the power cables, there IS an electrical change that caused it and it is not imaginary. Well the changed response may not measure perfect because of the room, it sounds perfect or nearly perfect. Pre-change in the particular cheap power cables, the sound was totally unacceptable and would measure terrible. As music lovers and not interested in proving the OBVIOUS, there is no need to test or measure the difference.

This video about power cords is well worth a watch too:

 

That was a quick and interesting response.

@russ69 , thank you for your thoughtful and articulate response, What did you think of the idea of checking customer reviews? I use Mogami cables and we both seem to like them. I personally found that attention to power was a good idea but totally subject to your grid and the wiring in your home. I don’t have dedicated circuits but try to work around it as best I can.

As for speaker/dsp/room I like the idea of starting with the room, then DSP to dial it in. That was the exact method shared by Jeff Clark of Audyssey and Phil from Sound United. I got the best results with the pro version of Audyssey and this is video where they both laid that road map. Even if you don't use Audyssey this is a good resource, FWIW Jeff did reply to my e-mails and seemed to really care about their customers:

 

If you rather watch a video, here it is as well:

 

 

@laoman 

Amir this is blatant nonsense. Are you saying that adding better quality capacitors, improved shielding,  an improved power supply, high voltage transformers and decoupling the power supply does not lead to a significant improvement?

First, you don't seem to follow the discussion.  Poster claimed that power cables cure modal response of the room.  They do not in any form or fashion.  Physics dictate that.  

As to your new independent claim,  you are being very vague.  Of course a good power supply needs to be designed internal to your audio gear for it to perform well.  This is mandatory.  Once there however, you screwing around with power cables, filter, conditioners, etc. is all useless.  Completely useless.  I have shown this extensively across countless products I have tested.

The best test of this is on purpose feeding audio gear highly distorted AC.  My lab AC generator can produce chopped AC.  When I feed that to decently designed audio gear, it makes zero change to its output.  As it should be.  No decently designed power supply assumes clean AC.  It converts AC to very clean DC so anything you do up front is useless. See: 

This is the AC quality in my my house:

 

I changed that to this chopped AC:

Look at how much more distorted the waveform is.  Yet it made no difference whatsoever to the soundwaves out of the audio gear.

No impact whatsoever.  If this didn't change the sound, what on earth do you think a different power cable does???

In every review of cables, I show measurements of the cables themselves as well.  Many times they don't even do the things you think they are doing!  In a number of cases, they are more susceptible to noise than other way around.  You are a complete victim of power tweak companies if you think any of them improve the sound of your system.  

Be a good consumer: ask these companies to provide measurements and controlled listening tests.  Don't become their PR people, making arguments that have no foundation in reality like what I am responding to.

@amir_asr

After having read your reply and getting past the fake outrage, your answer is "No." , you do not check. That is alright, but it will always leave you open to questions.I say fake outrage because no allegation or insinuation was made; a simple question was asked. I could say that you protest too much.

Now some advice for you. If you got off your high horse and allowed some discussion in ASR, none of these threads would ever have materialised. It is your arrogance and intransigence in throwing off anyone who disagrees with you that annoys many people including your own minions. Look at your appalling treatment of restorerjohn, (yes I know you did not ban him, but you dismissed him in a particularly nasty way), on your own site. This was a disgrace.

One final point. :You stated: "Keep in mind that these are not mechanical product subject to large variations. Yes, there can be minor differences in performance of components but nothing significant can be achieved."

Amir this is blatant nonsense. Are you saying that adding better quality capacitors, improved shielding,  an improved power supply, high voltage transformers and decoupling the power supply does not lead to a significant improvement?

@fleschler 

2. As to the ragged frequency response so obvious in the bass, I had two friends accompany me pre-power cable change and the Golden Ear remastering engineer friend blurted out that it sounds terrible. He is high functioning slight autistic so he just let loose. We heard as well but didn’t know why with such great gear. 

You didn't know?  Every system, and I repeat, every system out there will have uneven bass response regardless of price once placed in a room.  Below transition frequencies of a few hundred hertz, the room dominates the frequency response of the speakers.  You can pour millions of dollars into electronics and speakers and it will not be fixed.

The cheapest and one of the most effect solution is equalization which sadly many subjectivists audiophiles don't deploy.  With it, you can pull the peaks down and not only make the response more even, but also reduce the distortion from the speakers.

You can attempt to use acoustic products as well but the wavelengths are so large and energy so huge that you can barely make a dent in it < 100 Hz.  By the time you put enough of them in there you room can wind up too dead which is unpleasant especially for acoustic/orchestral/big band music.

A power cord will do absolutely nothing for this as this effect (modal response).  Yes, you can imagine that the bass has gotten "tighter" post such a change but it is a false impression which disappears after the psychological effect of the change is gone.

If you disagree, post a before and after frequency response measurement of your room with or without your favorite power cable.  

If this knowledge is new to you, I highly suggest reading Dr. Floyd Toole's book: Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms

The book costs much less than the money that was wasted on said power cords.

You write like a know it all as well. Why don’t you take a leaf from the book of ASR member Matt Hooper/prof (here) and read his comments on subjective listening and opinion (even as posted on ASR). The link is on page 3 with his agreement with Audiogon members (eventually) at the bottom third of the page.

Sorry if I offended you @fleschler maybe I am a bit on the scale.

I am setting up the system in a new room (new house), so maybe these questions I have should be worded more like questions than as statements

It is not like I have access to people than can come by and look at the power cords and know what to change.
And I certainly do not know it all, like in terms of being able to identify the power cord as a solution to the bass being rippled.

Quick post answer (I haven’t read them all yet). @holmz

1. I didn’t know that he needed a new power cord but upon seeing what he was using, knowing friends negative experience and knowing my own experience with this particular high end cable, I suggested it. He didn’t believe in it as an electrical engineer but did a 180 after he heard it for himself.

2. As to the ragged frequency response so obvious in the bass, I had two friends accompany me pre-power cable change and the Golden Ear remastering engineer friend blurted out that it sounds terrible. He is high functioning slight autistic so he just let loose. We heard as well but didn’t know why with such great gear. Anyone could hear that the bass was not linear, but ragged going up and down the scale. It was a total mess.

You write like a know it all as well. Why don’t you take a leaf from the book of ASR member Matt Hooper/prof (here) and read his comments on subjective listening and opinion (even as posted on ASR). The link is on page 3 with his agreement with Audiogon members (eventually) at the bottom third of the page.

 

@holmz

I felt there is no other way for you to get the info you were requesting about gear.

The measurements of the gear are different than the measurements of how the gear behaves in a room right?

That depends on if it is a signal measurement or a room measurement?
The former is an electrical thing for components, IC, speaker cables, amps.
The later is about fields, which are measurement of the resulting acoustic field… that combines the electrical signal with the speaker and the room.

To isolate and remove the room and speakers, makes it a bit easier to consider how each component, IC, cable etc is contributing or not to the overall picture.

The ICs will not really have a whole lot to do with the room, unless it is high inductance or capacitance and being use like a tone control.

If there is some other thing happening with crystal boundaries, or dielectric polarisation, then that too should show up as the signal being changed when comparing one IC with another.
When this cannot be shown, it leads me to believe that it may not be measurable.

 

I advocate getting the room right first and yes, in room measurements can indeed make the trial and error process a bit faster (and maybe even less expensive).

^This^ I can abide.

 

Now, to answer your question to the OP of how to separate the real deal from a fable I can’t tell you a single measurement that will get you 100% guaranteed satisfaction that your money was a good investment. If you know a better way than auditioning it in your own room I am open to trying it.

Well there is a null test, and ICs should respond well to that… and power cords should show that the signal coming out of say a power amp is either the same or changed if one can compare them. But this never seems to be shown. 

Speaker cables have inductance and capacitance, and the speakers have larger current demands than an IC. When a cable coma-any has specs that is great.
With, or without, that I can only assume that if I want the total inductance and capacitance to be low, then I should probably keep those cables on the short side.

I’ll likely stay with the IC mostly using Mogami/Neutrik  combo, and a few speaker cables of Magomi or cotton/.copper, and a few ICs using silver and cotton.

Most of my ICs are only as long as they need to be, and I would rather spend the money on electronics until such time as I can understand if the IC are different or not.
Better is good, but to begin with can we even know if they are different? 

 

I would not recommend just taking some expensive speakers that measure well and sticking them in a room with bare walls like some of our scientifically minded guests.

There are step function and impulse response measurements.
The FR can be largely corrected with DSP/EQ, and the impulse response somewhat corrected with Dirac.

Whether someone starts off with the room or speakers, they often often end up with both good speakers and a somewhat treated room.  More often than not the room work comes later… so there is no great dishonour in having speakers that measure better as a start.

It doesn’t matter too much how well treated a room is treated if the speakers have poor impulse response, poor frequency response, resonating boxes, being output limited by compression, and have high harmonic (IM, and Doppler) distortion… but the room treatment may help with their radiation pattern and remove some brightness from the FR.

 

For casual listening, fine. For critical listening and professional reviews maybe get some feedback from a knowledgeable third party like Anthony Grimani at www.sonitususa.com or Jeff Hedback at www.hdacosutics.net.

A lot of people start with a speaker in a room, and then go to DSP, Dirac, or RoomPerfect, and/or add treatments.

I guess this last part is what separates us?
Namely whether it is a for critical listening, or causally listening to music.
And then what are we critically listening for?

I often start out wanting to listen to music and get blocked by sibilance, and once the grating sibilance is gone, then I get happy again.
The recordings that are overly sibilant just end up staying in their sleeves most of the time.

Is anyone beside me surprised that someone who is an expert on measurements either doesn't have or won't post his own room with his own measurements in the virtual system area, in a thread on measurements????

 

 

@amir_asr

If you do pass such a test, repeat with capturing a video of it and we have something wonderful to discuss! If you can’t do that, then measurements, null tests, engineering analysis of what is going on, etc. are great help in getting to truth of the matter.

Don’t just show up here and start telling everyone what to do when you don’t lead by example. You have not posted your own system, pics and measurements in the virtual system page, as you say, "we will have something wonderful to discuss"
You are all about what the OP should do, let’s go and show him what you got, you gonna walk or talk? I promise to make no disparaging remarks, just try to be helpful, please do same.

@fleschler 

"As to tweaks, I say try it and if you like the sound results, keep it. "

Excellent advice.  I would just make sure you only use your ears in such an evaluation.  They are trivial to test this way because they don't change any linear aspects of the device (levels, frequency response, etc.).  Have a loved one add or not add the tweak 10 times and see if you can tell the difference 8 out of 10 times.  Take all the time you need.  Let your ears and only your ears be the judge and not fall for statistical error.

If you do pass such a test, repeat with capturing a video of it and we have something wonderful to discuss!  If you can't do that, then measurements, null tests, engineering analysis of what is going on, etc. are great help in getting to truth of the matter.

@coralkong 

I was done with ASR a while ago, and you haven't changed my opinion.

No worries. I am only responding to what people write about me/ASR.  Stop doing that and I won't interact with you.  

@laoman 

You still have not answered if you actually ever check whether Yang sends you off the shelf products or cherry picked ones. This is now the fourth time I have put this to you. Scared?

Fourth time?  I have only seen it now.  First, no, John doesn't send me anything.  He is an engineer there.  I have had a contact there way before John worked there that sends me equipment.

Every Topping product comes with audio measurements -- what OP was asking about.  They were doing this before I started measuring gear.  It is not a surprise then that their gear measures well.  They optimize and verify their designs as part of their own engineering process -- what every audio company should be doing.

As to your allegations, when this came up a couple of years ago, my contact there offered that I go and buy everything I have tested from them at their expense to verify that no golden sample is picked.  I consider Topping very ethical and accept their word that the speak the truth here.

If you have any evidence to the contrary, put it forward.  Otherwise, the allegations are uncalled for.  And at any rate, would apply to every reviewer out there getting company samples which means 100% of the gear sites like Stereophile, Soundstage, joe reviewer, etc. tests.  Have you voiced objections about them in the same manner?

Keep in mind that these are not mechanical product subject to large variations.  Yes, there can be minor differences in performance of components but nothing significant can be achieved.

Finally, members from time to time send me samples they have purchased to remeasure and compare against company supplied ones.  So far, none have produced different results to indicate any gold samples are picked.

I suggest if you are going to call a company's conduct into question, that you work on some evidence to back it.  They surely deserve not having their reputation soiled just because you felt like it.

@holmz

I felt there is no other way for you to get the info you were requesting about gear.

The measurements of the gear are different than the measurements of how the gear behaves in a room right?

I advocate getting the room right first and yes, in room measurements can indeed make the trial and error process a bit faster (and maybe even less expensive).

Now, to answer your question to the OP of how to separate the real deal from a fable I can’t tell you a single measurement that will get you 100% guaranteed satisfaction that your money was a good investment. If you know a better way than auditioning it in your own room I am open to trying it.

I would not recommend just taking some expensive speakers that measure well and sticking them in a room with bare walls like some of our scientifically minded guests. For casual listening, fine. For critical listening and professional reviews maybe get some feedback from a knowledgeable third party like Anthony Grimani at www.sonitususa.com or Jeff Hedback at www.hdacosutics.net.

This is the essence of chat rooms and the internet. Of all the stuff you read how do you filter out what is relevant to you. In my opinion measurements of a product are a poor indicator to whether or not you will like it. A good indicator is customer reviews. Look at the opinions of people who bought it. I am NOT a believer in the blind test unless you have a panel of trained listeners and the proper setup. I am a BIG believer in the customer knowing if something is good or bad. If you want to know if product X walks the walk check Amazon, Crutchfield, Audio Advice, Sweetwater, Guitar Center, etc. for customer reviews.  Then check the forums and some professional reviews. Then audition it by leaving it in your system for a few weeks and see what happens when you take it out.

If there was one measurement that was universally best for everyone every manufacturer would produce their gear to fit that measurement in order to compete. I wish that were true but it just isn’t

You started out wanting measurements and a list of equipment, and now it is back to being that none of that matters, and it is all in the ears of the beholder.

"What should make you upset is folks paying orders of magnitude more, only to get a less performant audio device."

I think this about sums it up. Got to save the world from itself.

I feel sorry for the people who blindly believe the BS you're throwing down on your channel. IMO, it's irresponsible and a disservice to the hi-fi community.

I was done with ASR a while ago, and you haven't changed my opinion.

Because once you know, you know. And I DO know. And I'm old enough and my equipment is good enough that I CAN hear differences when I swap out (whatever piece of equipment you'd like to insert here). I trust my judgement. IOW, I trust my ears, (whether you can measure that or not, I don't really care). I don't need your measurements or validation. I don't need your approval. I don't need your channel. And I absolutely don't need your passive aggressive, condescending snarky comments.

Have a great day.

 

 

 

 

 

@laoman +1  He won't even post measurements and pics of his own system. No one will make fun of him here, this is a thread about measurements.

Did he just show up to throw up or is he going to throw down? 

@russ69

Let me rePhrase it.

“How can I tell the difference between your story and a fable?”
How would I know whether it is true and a real thing or a psychological thing, or even just a story.

This is the essence of chat rooms and the internet. Of all the stuff you read how do you filter out what is relevant to you. In my opinion measurements of a product are a poor indicator to whether or not you will like it. A good indicator is customer reviews. Look at the opinions of people who bought it. I am NOT a believer in the blind test unless you have a panel of trained listeners and the proper setup. I am a BIG believer in the customer knowing if something is good or bad. If you want to know if product X walks the walk check Amazon, Crutchfield, Audio Advice, Sweetwater, Guitar Center, etc. for customer reviews.  Then check the forums and some professional reviews. Then audition it by leaving it in your system for a few weeks and see what happens when you take it out.

If there was one measurement that was universally best for everyone every manufacturer would produce their gear to fit that measurement in order to compete. I wish that were true but it just isn’t.

@td_dayton 

also updating to point out that this guy, while he's been quite critical of some of the reviewers i enjoy reading like lavorgna, doesn't appear to have a history of attacking other measurement-focused reviewers and booting them from his comments section. food for thought

Yes, Archimago appears to be a well-adjusted human. Also a decently articulate writer. I should check his blog more often.

@holmz You are correct. He could have needed better fuses or IC cables or something else.

The question was:

1. how did you know it needed the power cord?
2. What is happening with the power cord that makes it better?
3. Is there a way to measure it?
4. or does it not manifest itself in a measurement?

 

 

However, several other friends tried the Pangea power cable. No go. They disliked it compared to whatever they had been using. I know how great my power cables sound on several systems and the lack of returns on 1000s sold privately. So, I lent him the less expensive, earlier model, just one and he was dumbfounded. He replaced all the power cables. He was ecstatically happy. I’m happy for him and after he also changed his pre-amp input tubes, I am happy to listen to his audio system.

Good for him.

 

Yes, I’m only telling fables in your opinion. Not! You can believe it’s just another story and the sound could be the same. Not!

Let me rePhrase it.

“How can I tell the difference between your story and a fable?”
How would I know whether it is true and a real thing or a psychological thing, or even just a story.

 

I’ve related how poorly his system reproduced low frequencies with very jagged sound and now a smooth sound up and down the scale.

OK- Is there a plot like @kota1 showed where the frequency response went from jagged to smooth?

 

Voices are full and forward (instead of floating in the rear and thin sounding). I was using my CDs which I am very familiar with. If that earlier system from 2019 were mine after spending nearly $1/2 million, I also would have been very disappointed. It may not be perfect but after a few changes (10X more expensive power cables, 5X less expensive input tubes) his now high end sounding system is one I would be proud to own (except it is only CD based, uploaded to a computer and thumbdrives, going through a computer directory, through a Berkeley USB something or other to the DAC, then pre-amp then tri-amped multi-box speaker system). Too much work for me, I just plop the CD into the transport (or work a little more with LPs, 78s and R2R).

 

Yes, go ahead and measure my Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Euphoria SPDIF digital cable.  I would pay $25 to find out how it measures.  But I'm not sending it to you, you'll have to acquire one on loan from a retailer, SR or someone else using it and I will pay for the results. 

"The industry is transforming though because if they don’t measure, then I might. :)"

What unbelievable arrogance. No wonder people in the industry regard your site as a joke. You still have not answered if you actually ever check whether Yang sends you off the shelf products or cherry picked ones. This is now the fourth time I have put this to you. Scared? If you do check, show us scientific evidence that you do, else it is just your statement. Perhaps make a video showing an independent person check as you open an off the shelf product and one sent to you.
 

As to tweaks, I say try it and if you like the sound results, keep it. Otherwise, return it. I tried many footers when a dealer continued to send them to me to evaluate. One was terrible under all equipment and about 8 others were more similar than different in effect.  None were inexpensive, ranging from $49 to $500 per footer, a broad range but cost more than most footers were in the 1980s (cones, silicone rings, springs, etc).  I think roller balls in captive devices were the next step, vibraplanes and then multi-density/elastomer type devices, almost all more expensive. 

It wasn't until I purchased the Townshend Seismic Sink that I decided to keep my VPI TNT VI in 2006.  It has terrible vibration isolation, much worse than the rubber block and spring footers of my VPI 19-4.  That Townshend is fantastic for turntable isolation (my equipment rack was not the problem, made of welded steel tubing filled with 50/50 shot and sand/dead sounding when struck).  
 

The review of the Belden (Blue Jeans) Iconoclast XLR cable measurements appeared about the same to me as the Canare, the difference was the extreme price difference. The Iconoclast designer indicates that it should sound different due to construction matters affecting other electrical properties (such as timing). I cannot say that it is or isn’t inferior but it is noteworthy that it electrically measured in specific tests similar. If I were given it to test, I would also listen to it and to the Canare in a high quality audio system. If there is no difference, then I would choose the Canare for that system. if there is a difference, a significant one, then the tests were incomplete/inadequate. The Belden could sound worse though. Different results in other systems are also possible. If this listening comparison occurs in many systems with similar resuls, then the testing was probably adequate. My problem is that manufacturers of most cables do not provide tested measurements.

I have not heard Belden Iconoclast cables in any system. I didn’t know that they made a high end cable. When I went to their site, the cable components do not appear to vary much from more common, less expensive cables, including those made in China by Audioquest and others. Not even close to the high end cables I’ve heard. Harmonic Technology and XLO also made cables of similar complexity. The speaker cable components were even simpler. After viewing the Cardas video on cable assembly (and lack of testing), I have great reservations concerning expensive cables as well. Maybe it’s luck for the audiophile who finds a cable manufacturer who designs and assembles higher end or more costly cables that transmit sound better than inexpensive plain jane well measured cables. I’m just glad that I found a cable manufacturer whose cables do make a positive difference for nearly every system they are placed in.

@holmz You are correct.  He could have needed better fuses or IC cables or something else.  However, several other friends tried the Pangea power cable. No go.  They disliked it compared to whatever they had been using.  I know how great my power cables sound on several systems and the lack of returns on 1000s sold privately.  So, I lent him the less expensive, earlier model, just one and he was dumbfounded.  He replaced all the power cables.  He was ecstatically happy.  I'm happy for him and after he also changed his pre-amp input tubes, I am happy to listen to his audio system.  

Yes, I'm only telling fables in your opinion.  Not!  You can believe it's just another story and the sound could be the same.  Not!  I've related how poorly his system reproduced low frequencies with very jagged sound and now a smooth sound up and down the scale.  Voices are full and forward (instead of floating in the rear and thin sounding).  I was using my CDs which I am very familiar with.  If that earlier system from 2019 were mine after spending nearly $1/2 million, I also would have been very disappointed.  It may not be perfect but after a few changes (10X more expensive power cables, 5X less expensive input tubes) his now high end sounding system is one I would be proud to own (except it is only CD based, uploaded to a computer and thumbdrives, going through a computer directory, through a Berkeley USB something or other to the DAC, then pre-amp then tri-amped multi-box speaker system).  Too much work for me, I just plop the CD into the transport (or work a little more with LPs, 78s and R2R).  

here is a good article from another measurement-focused audio internet guy. whatever you think of his conclusions or his overall viewpoint, it strikes me as a reasonable and thoughtful position. instead of fighting it out in the forums and taking cheap shots at everyone who dares to disagree, he lays out his case clearly and ends with a call for mutual civility and respect.

from my point of view, we can just accept that reasonable people disagree with one another in every niche hobby on earth, and still try to learn something in the process. it’s all about music anyway. who cares. 

also updating to point out that this guy, while he's been quite critical of some of the reviewers i enjoy reading like lavorgna, doesn't appear to have a history of attacking other measurement-focused reviewers and booting them from his comments section. food for thought

 

@mitch2 After reading your post concerning the Benchmark L4, you mentioned having sought out pre-amps exceeding $10K cost.  I would recommend the Audio Research SP28 at $12K if you could afford it.  Only if you change the input tubes to 6N6 or 6H6 (cheap tubes).  Otherwise, you would be better off with the Benchmark if it sounds (or rather lack of sound) pleasing with your fuller/warmer sounding front end.  

@amir_asr

Maybe to you $100 is nothing but for others, it is good money they don’t want to throw out.

Why do you think its not worth it? You are stuck in a loop, if it costs more than (whatever cable you happen to use) so it must be bad.

No one can help you here, you are stuck (trapped) in a fog of stubbornness, why do you want to drag everyone else into the fog with you? Danny tried lifting you out, Darko certainly gave you good advice, yet here you go on and on advising everyone else what to do with THEIR money. Stop already with the complaining.

Are you going to finally reveal your system with pics and measurements in your profile? You already said this is a thread about measurements OK?

 

Amir, you are a professional with a high profile. You have my respect for what you built (even though I don't agree with you or your members on everything) Don't just show up and be so callous (or irksome), OK?

man, i really dont like the refusal to publish measurements. i really dislike it, especially with the turntables. a few companies that dont publish specs have sent em to me when i asked. 

i can believe that some cables sound better than others.

the biggest thing that keeps comin to mind as i read it is..."objectivist" is already taken, and it got nuthin to do with hifi.

Ahh @westcoastaudiophile what is the cause (what are the causes) of that?

@holmz yes, impulse response is sensitive to amplitude.