Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?
After my Audio Science Review review forum, it became apparent that nearly the only way one can determine the measurements of an audio product is wait for a review on line or in a publication. Most equipment is never reviewed or is given a subjective analysis rather than a measurement oriented review. One would think that manufacturers used tests and measurements to design and construct their products.
Manufacturers routinely give the performance characteristics of their products as Specifications. Those are not test measurements.
I searched the Revel speaker site for measurements of any of their speakers and could not find any. Revels are universally lauded for their exceptional reviewed measurements. Lack of published manufacturer measurements is true for nearly every speaker manufacturer I've searched for on line, perhaps several hundred. Same is true for amps, pre-amps, DACs, transports, turntables, well you get the picture. Do they have something to hide? I doubt the good quality products have anything to hide but poor quality products do.
ASR prides itself in providing "true" measurements that will aid in purchase decisions. Why don't the manufacturers provide these measurements so that reviewers can test if they are truthful or not?
Then there are the cables and tweaks for which I suspect that there are inadequate tests available to measure sonically perceived differences but which objectivists believe don't exist or are "snake oil."
Well, please chime in if you have some illuminating thoughts on the subject.
I would have loved to see manufacturers measurements on my equipment and especially those that I rejected.
@amir_asr , you are spit balling again, nice try on another bait and switch. You didn’t post your system, pics and in room FR graph, just more air, HOT air. If you have questions about my system see the profile. Audiogon Forum 1 and ASR 0 (failed to answer the bell) Is anyone surprised that @amir_asr is unwilling/unable to post his own system? It is curious. |
Sadly those measurements are gated/in-room and as such, have no low frequency resolution to speak of. Notice how the X axis starts at 700 Hz. Things like cabinet/port resonances are just not seen with that kind of measurement I am also pretty sure the response above that region is also smoothed and is not raw. For a company their size, they should get proper anechoic measurements for their speakers. |
@kota1
Specs or measurements? I went back to page 1 and you said this:
You have measurements for this Mapleshade cable? How about for these claims they make on their home page: • Lift all speaker, power, and interconnect wires 8" off any carpet or plastic tile. Use string, wood, cardboard, or 20 ounce Styrofoam cups for temporary props. You’ll think you’ve pulled horse blankets off your speakers. For a more civilized-looking solution You have done this and have before and after measurements of your system? How about this: NEVER use speaker cables shorter than 8'. Amazingly, 4' sounds much worse than 8'. Contrary to common belief, shorter interconnects (2 m or less) and longer speaker cables always sound WAY BETTER than the opposite—based on extensive head-to-head tests. You have measurements to back this? To improve high end cables, remove any outer nylon mesh: the bad dielectric only adds grunge. Remove any metal barrels on RCA plugs—you lose the locking feature and gain transparency. Anyone done this here and has measurements to back before and after results? Then there is this: Any cable with a molded-in ferrite (the small plastic-covered cylinder at one or both ends) sounds way better with the ferrite removed. This is your favorite cable, right? Where are the measurements to back your choice of this cable? Let's get this cable topic settled and them I am happy to discuss your room measurements. Until then it sure looks like you want to change the topic.
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Harman (Revel/JBL) engineering loves to release the detailed measurements but their marketing department thinks that will be too confusing for customers to understand. Fortunately the engineering team has leaked a boatload of them and someone online has organized them for you (NOT me):
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^true^ but he said:
… so there is at least one that takes some pride in the measurements. But 1 out of several hundred does say something. |
@holmz it was a reference to Revel not Vandys. |
@amir_asr , if you don’t post pics, your components, and FR of your room Audiogon Forum is still the system/measurement champ. I told you, I already posted the specs of my cables earlier in this thread. This shouldn’t be difficult to at least answer the bell. Is ASR going to throw in the towel? If so no one on this forum will be surprised but what will the ASR members reading this think? If the reason you can't post anything is you aren't happy with your results feel free to start a new thread here, we have amazing members. Nice try on the bait and switch....and I still detect lots of air coming from your direction, HOT air.
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I have not seen a single measurement from you regarding topic of this thread: cables. As for me, you didn't ask me or I would be happy to post a ton: Here is the Nordost Tyr 2 Coax cable: And comparison to generic cable:
Belden Iconoclast cable:
And null test with music:
Actual recordings are there in the review thread if you want to take a listen and see if you can tell the difference. You can see a lot more reviews/measurements here: You have anything like this? If not, why not? How can you demand measurements when you don't care about such measurements? |
@amir_asr I’m demanding graphs AND posting graphs, so where are yours? Let me know if you need help, NP. As for what your system sounds like that is up to you to know, I want to see what it looks like, please post, thanks. Has the Kota stumped (embarrassed) you? I am detecting air from your direction, HOT air, lots and lots of hot air :). If you don’t reply I gotta give the W to Audiogon Forum, we whipped the ASR champ in measurements!! Not bad. There is still another round, you just gotta answer the bell, ready, set, post the pics of your system, the components, and the FR measurements of your room... Alternatively you can throw in the towel and it is Audiogon Forum 1, ASR 0 and we take the measurement/system title. You still are a champ though... of air, HOT air, lots and lots of just hot air. |
Verified by perpetual blind tests I presume?
Somehow, posts like this make me wonder whether THE Amir account has been hacked by a 10-14 years old dude
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Who listens to music these days? Apparently not folks here who are having anxiety if their power cables are letting in enough air. Or whether their systems are broken in. Rest of us enjoy our systems without such worries. As to graphs, the only person demanding graphs right now BTW is @kota1. And OP made an attempt to get some for his cables but seems he didn't really want that either. As to my system, it sounds great because that is what my ears tell me. What business of yours to challenge my ears? The main thing it is missing right now is air. Lots of air. As soon as one of you can convince me that one of your tweaks takes care of that business, that will be remedied as well. |
Here you go @fleschler https://www.vandersteen.com/media/files/KENTO%20Step%20Response.pdf I suppose that we can talk about whether that is important or not.
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@kota1 : let’s be fair here, Sir Armir’s AP testing equipment alone is several times more expensive than your entire system. Everything sounds fabulous through it. Who listens to music nowadays. So 20th century. You measure. And enjoy the signal. Those graphs give you goosebumps 🤭 (I wanted to say “a hard on “ but I refrained) |
@juanmanuelfangioii , it is what it is. When I look at some of the rooms of our members in the virtual systems area it provides context and many of them are simply awe inspiring like these. If you are putting yourself out there as an expert I think it takes more than just a microphone and a computer. If @amir_asr posts something (anything) let's see if he can walk, or if all he does is talk (spitball): or
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That is precious calling Amir a reviewer. He is not that he is this. A shill is a hustler or con-person who tries to convince other people to buy something or think something is great (shilling). The shill has ulterior motives for their actions, usually because they are the actual seller or have something to gain if the product sells well.
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You made a BIG mistake, when you didn’t align your system within your room. DSP is limited in what it can do. I think you can rectify your mistake if you work on your room (which is why you won’t post pics and FR if I am not mistaken). You may not agree with @fleschler on everything but the guy gets props for knowing how to build a room. Maybe you can start a build thread for a new listening room/studio? Those expensive Revel speakers you own are going to waste I am afraid. You are worried about my wasting $250 and hear you are shredding dollar bills every time you listen without your room tuned, a mistake for an average listener but a disaster for a reviewer. My info is based on the disdain you posted for room treatments in your review of the Paradigm PW Link. If you updated your room we would all like to see pics. Thanks |
@amir_asr , well you finally engaged. All you posted was your opinion of a system you never heard (mine) with a cable you never used (the Mapleshade Digital IC) and clearly have no idea or evidence to back up anything. Well, let’s go with that. OK, so let me give you a track to run on. This is an example of a cable review by someone who tried the Mapleshade cables BEFORE coming to a conclusion. I would say my experience was more similar to 3 people that came to the same conclusions in this article: |
Let me also add that if you want measurements for a cable, I am happy to do that. While I am getting a bit exhausted from testing so many and finding none modify the output of the audio system, I am still here if you want to have that data. Cables are small and light to ship so not much burden. And I usually pay for return shipping so you are only out of pocket for the expense of sending it me. If you were never interested in such measurements but created a topic asking for it anyway, then say so and we go about our business instead of dealing with a Kabuki theater. |
Thank you for the offer. But before you volunteer time to help me, see if you can help yourself in your audio beliefs. Per above, I am still trying to figure out why you claim 100 hours of break is mandatory for a cable. Or answering OP's question of why cable measurements are not provided as I do every time I review one on ASR. Remember, earlier you claimed I had never run double blind tests and I showed you I had run many. I suggest checking your knowledge of me before shooting from the hip again.
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Well you made a big mistake. If I predict the outcome of a coin flip, do you think I can do that forever? It could be pure luck, right? What if I did that twice in a row? Still could be luck. How about 4 times? Yes, it could still be luck. Indeed I have run blind tests where I got it right 4 or 5 times only to completely fail after that. If you go back to the start of the video I linked to, I explain the above. And how claims of "I ran a blind test" mean nothing unless they are repeated and backed by that statistical analysis to reduce the chances of pure luck. For this reason I keep saying run a test 10 times and see if 8 out of that many tests you can identify the cable. If a cable is "MUCH" better, you should be able to tell it apart 20 times and still get it right. So fire up your camera, start shooting a video of how many times in a row you can tell that cable from another. Then we have something to talk about. Until then, the only thing you demonstrated is that you still don't know how to properly get to audio truth. Also, nothing about your anecdote validates the requirement for 100 hours of break in. You need to go and get a fresh cable and compare it to the 100 hour broken one and see if you can get at least 8 out of 10 times right. You say the company gives you 30 days free trial. So when can be expect this result? Until then, your starting claim in ASR that Audioquest cable needed 100 hours of break in before testing is just nonsense. Heck, that cable is even different than yours so how can you claim both need the same 100 hours??? |
@invalid
Don't tell that to a lot of people around here. Many think the purpose of the audio system is to replicate live music! But yes, you are right that a recording is never the same as a live presentation. Once created though, you don't want to a) put in tweaks that make no audible difference but cost money and b) overlay the same tonality on everything you play. If you do, that is fine but just don't advocate it as being "higher fidelity." Mind you, as you say, you are welcome to do (b) but just don't keep saying that is what people should do. Studies show that we all like accurate sound when only the ear is involved.
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That aside, was this whole thread a farce? You actually don't want to see measurements for cables? You were playing with us? Are you here to throw more spitballs again? The guy that measures doesn't have any measurements about his own system? Embarrassing. If you are experiencing "technical difficulties" please post what they are and I am sure I can help, NP. |
Food is the same as the music. It is the creation. Don't confuse that with playback which plays similar role to the plate that the food comes on. You don't want to have a dirty plate and you certainly don't want your plate to add flavor to your food. Some of you seem to not only want to violate these rules, but also pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for the privilege of it! That aside, was this whole thread a farce? You actually don't want to see measurements for cables? You were playing with us? |
@axo1989
Thanks coach. Do you hold classes on this everyday or every other? My dog is a big believer in yoga by the way:
Good thinking. Going by topic of this thread, there should be age ratings for said cables. That way, the older audiophiles wouldn't waste money on them. |
I’m pleased to see Mr Majidimehr is back. Less so that he is gasping for air. Yoga practice is the key to good breathing I think. Exhale ego, inhale air. Another possibility: as we know, in audio terminology air is the frequency band at the top of the treble range starting around 12-14 kHz. Older gentlemen can’t hear it so well. |
I have to repost this from Pleasurably better, not measurably better forum as it's a hoot. @chmaiwald wrote: This chase for neutrality (or accuracy or however you want to call it) makes me wonder. Audio setups with a strong sonic signature aside, it‘s like investing so much in finding something that has least personality. From the top of my hat I can‘t think of any hobby or whatever gives you pleasure where least personality is something widely accepted as the ultimate goal. “I went out dining, and let me tell you, that casserole was so accurate. I loved its linearity. I measured it.“ I‘m joking of course, but I think there‘s something to it. I responded with: Great! Food comparison. McDonald's burgers measure better than any other fast food burger for consistency. Despite that, I only eat Angus ground sirloin burgers at Le Petit French restaurant because they taste better to me. Amir's answer-Le Petit's burgers are too expensive so I am throwing away money when I could have purchased half a dozen McDonald's. |
@millercarbon +100 "it can be very useful to measure certain parameters, in order to quantify progress in design changes, especially changes that might be below the threshold of audibility" - manufacturing of components includes key measurements to make sure parameters are within commit spec. |
@amir_asr , OK, thanks for sharing. The last time I did the test you just posted was when I auditioned a Mapleshade Digital Interconnect I had for a 30 day trial (about $250). After about 100 hrs of break in I "blind tested" it with my current cable and it was MUCH better so I kept it. The guys at Mapleshade actually insist on customers doing their own "shootouts" and you can always return within 30 days. You can tell they are VERY confident and stand behind their products. Looking forward to checking out your virtual system with the FR measurements. |
@millercarbon That's great. +1 |
Yes, I am aware of that hopelessly lost, muddled, and illogical view. Hopeless, because they won't listen. Lost, because it forgets the reason for music in the first place is enjoyment. Muddled, because it pretends to serve as a guide and frame of reference, when in fact it removes them all. Or let them prove otherwise, simply tell us what measurements and in what order and proportion they can be used to rank performance. Illogical, because they pretend to be mind readers. After all, how else would THEY know YOU wasted YOUR money? Nonsense on stilts, a smorgasbord of it, from soup to nuts. |
@millercarbon I certainly agree with you but unfortunately, the highness of all things audio through measurement declares we are mislead, foolish and wasteful of our money. A few others declared experts in mastering and sound reproduction as well as myself and friends as incompetent in discerning gross differences in sound and whether the sound is better or worse. Hence, this site debunking the measurements uber all (well, primarily the ASR/Amir site) without the testing and measuring of the differences for audiophiles and music lovers. If you read my previously posts, you'll know that I consider some measurements fundamental in matching equipment (speakers to amps, amps to pre-amps and cartridges to arms for example). As to cables and tweaks, it becomes more of a listeners preference and not "snake oil." Seasoned and expert listeners can easily discern better, worse and subtle/slight differences and each may have a preferential sound. I have two friends with contrary opinions, one prefers and upfront, detailed (brighter) sound and another prefers a laid back, warm and fullsome sound. Neither of them are wrong in their preference. Neither of the approaches necessary denote that the equipment is faulty or measures significantly differently. It's a combination of equipment in a system in a particular room/acoustics which determines the sound combined with the other elements such as power source, humidity, temperature, cabling and perhaps tweaks to create the sound the person prefers. It is not easy to do. That is why audio shows and audio salons strive to combine components which work together and present a unified sound, one type or another. |
A comment, or clarification: measurements are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. When building something it can be very useful to measure certain parameters, in order to quantify progress in design changes, especially changes that might be below the threshold of audibility. Or it might also be useful to measure in order to discern what quantitative measures correlate with listener preference. Keith Herron for example once told me he believed people were sensitive to as little as 1/4dB in a certain circuit. This is far too low a level for anyone to identify as being louder or pick that out as the reason, they simply preferred one over another and only Keith knew the reason. The takeaway, what I got from it anyway, was three-fold: First, his testing was double-blind. So there is a use case even for this so often abused method. Second, measurements can be essential. It was only by rigorously measuring output that he knew what it was his test subjects were hearing, or more precisely choosing between. And third and most crucially, the end goal was listener preference. Not the measurement. The experience. Say again, measurements are a means to an end. If you can keep this simple fact in mind any time you see anyone putting the cart before the horse, it can save you a whole lot of misery, wasted time, and money. And now, at the risk of beating a now hopefully dead horse, I was not looking for a way of measuring cable vibrations to prove Cable Cradles work. Simply listen, it is obvious. I was looking for something that might help me figure out how to make them even better. There is always better. The proof is in the hearing. That is all. |
I explained how you do that in the video. Setup your system such that you don't know which cable is used (cover/hide it). Then have a loved one randomly switch one cable for the other. You keep score of which is which as does the person doing the switching for you. Do this 10 times and see if you can correctly identify one cable at least 8 times. Seeing how in sighted tests major fidelity changes are reported, then this process should back that up. If not, then the sighted tests are faulty. If you are unwilling or unable to do such tests, then my measurements and null tests are an excellent substitute. In some cases I have actually provided the captured outputs of the system so you can use any ABX software tool to compare them. So very easy to do when it comes to cables (or any other audio tweak) which is the topic of this thread. |
Air, air, air. I have no idea what this guy means by more air, pumping air into a system. For a scientist, this sounds dumb. What's in this guys' system-squipment unknown (insufficient air). Lack of air can be noticeable where instruments and voices lack any ambiance which is recorded naturally (so many recordings use plate, digital or room reverb to simulate "air)." So, if a recording sounds flat, lacking in depth, dimensionality, and/or soundstage, it maybe lacking in "air." My friend does not measure each cable. (Neither do most high end cable manufacturers). That is a flaw in his construction whereby there can be variances in each cable. However, after listening to multiple cables of the same make, I rarely heard any difference. The primary difference in power cables were the A/C plugs and IECs. Power cables are the least returned cable he manufactures (he said none). |
@amir_asr , thank you for posting the video and your attention to detail. I watched the testing you discussed at the 24 minute mark. I have done my own version of this test more for amusement than science. First I open up Tidal and create a new playlist. Next I upload two versions of the same album, one in HIFI and one in Masters. Then I hit shuffle and see how many times I can pick what type of track is playing. To do a blind listening test with speaker cables or interconnects requires a more elaborate setup (something like the Van Alstine ABX Comparator) . I don’t know how you would do a blind listening test of a power cable with that device. Please post another video or just some pics of your system and listening room if you have time. If you are the "doctor" let’s see if you are taking your own medicine OK? Don’t forget to post the in room frequency response. |
That's like asking your doctor if he knows how to practice medicine! Of course I have performed double blind tests. I have not only done them, I have post them online many times. I show a number of them in this video including techniques for passing difficult ones:
Have you run any such tests? Has @fleschler run any to show effectiveness of the cable he is promoting? |
What do you think I am talking about??? You claimed the Audioquest cable requires 100 hours with no facts backing it. I am now asking @fleschler who has been involved in design of some cable and is promoting here, what the burn in is for that. And why it is that it won't pump air into my system as a matter of principle. I didn't know cables were picky about who is trying to use them.
What is wrong with the cable @fleschler is selling us on? It lacks a compressor to put in any air??? How many hours does the ifi take to burn in before said air feature comes on? I WANT MY BLOODY AIR!!!
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@amir_asr , you need to check your source, I said 100 hours to burn in a cable. If you continue through that same thread I also said if you want to be specific ask the manufacturer, and then you banned me!! As for your search for a cable with more "air", may I present the iFi Supanova!! Air is listed if you look at the pictures of the iFi Supanova cable I just posted, did you miss it? See page 8. Remember, don’t ask for double blind tests unless you do them yourself:
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Well, @kota claimed the Audioquest Go-4 cable I was testing on ASR needing 200 hours of burn in: "If you want performance you need to get NEW cables on loan from a DEALER who has a return policy. Then, after around 100 hours of brek in, go for it." How do you reckon he figured out the 100 hour number for any test system but you can't? When you were experimenting with the cable you were building, did you wait 100 hours between every change to see the results? If not, where do you think he got these numbers? As to air, I am very disappointed that you think your cables can't do that for me. What are the qualifications for systems which can accept such air from your cable? Are they listed on manufacturer website? Or is it a random thing and what you say about improvement may not be there at all as you are implying with my system? And why is it a "bother" for manufacture to provide such specific data? You created a thread asking manufacturers to provide data to us as customers. Now you say we shouldn't bother them??? Are they in a privileged position with no competition as to us treating them special in this regard? Really, you seem to be saying other cable companies should do this and that the one you are involved in, should be exempt? |
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