Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

Another point of view on th GR Research power cord from our member @abdodson 

I put the first one on the amp. It replaced a similarly priced well regarded cable. No contest. More air, better separation, more dynamic. Across the board better, significantly better. I quickly ordered two more, wondering how they would sound on my DAC (Lampizator Atlantic TRP) and CD transport (Sim Moon 260D). On the DAC the cable being replaced is almost 3 times the cost of the GR Research cable. Again, no contest at all. The GR Research cable wins hands down in every respect (the one caveat here, and I hesitate to mention it, is the soundstage is still a little messy. But this is with almost 100% certainty a break-in issue).

As a beta tester for GroverHuffman cables, we have tried half a dozen Furutech A/C & IEC plugs over several decades.  We found that the more expensive ends tended to be brighter sounder with higher resolution and the lower end plugs maintain more body.  After trying many plugs from other companies, Grover found a Taiwan all copper plug that had good grip, excellent build qualities, a neutral sound resulting in great body and adequately high resolution to use with his power cables.  They cost less but sound (or lack of sound) great. 

@coralkong 

"Then you got called out on GR’s channel (in the end......by name)."

Of course he does.  I point out when that his products don't perform with an array of tests.  Such as that cable that barely functions as a power cable.  While I have praised some of his products, he does produce some really, really bad ones:

He relies on his viewers knowing less about audio than him. Don't be that viewer....

@fleschler 

As a beta tester for GroverHuffman cables, we have tried half a dozen Furutech A/C & IEC plugs over several decades.  We found that the more expensive ends tended to be brighter sounder with higher resolution and the lower end plugs maintain more body.  After trying many plugs from other companies, Grover found a Taiwan all copper plug that had good grip, excellent build qualities, a neutral sound resulting in great body and adequately high resolution to use with his power cables.  They cost less but sound (or lack of sound) great. 

So where are the measurements for that which you said in your OP products should come with?  Quoting you:

One would think that manufacturers used tests and measurements to design and construct their products. 

I put the first one on the amp. It replaced a similarly priced well regarded cable. No contest. More air, better separation, more dynamic.

Why is it that all these tweaks always add "air?"  I mean if this were a tire, by now it would be blowing up with all that air pumped into it!!! 😁

And why did they build an air-less system to start before this tweak?  Did the designers of his system really forgot to put air in them?  It needed a new AC cable to put the air back in?

I mean the guy builds a half a million dollar system and then makes another tweak.  Bam!  The system now has more air.  Really?  Half a million dollar didn't get all the air you ever needed or wanted?

And what if the original music didn't have air in it to begin with?  Isn't it now full of air that doesn't belong there?

Or maybe, and I am just spit balling here, that the way audiophiles do listening tests with their eyes is wrong.  Just do the darn test blind.  Test a dozen times and see if you can tell the tweak has done anything.  Don't confuse people with these false conclusions.  

@dabel 

@amir_asr, any chance that Ranch invite to Sisters OR. happened some years ago. 

Steve's offer of visit was very kind.  But post my review, I am not sure the invite was still good.  :)

Seriously, we used to go to Sisters for quilt festival which my wife loved to attend.  Covid put a halt in that so we haven't been that way anymore.

@amir_asr Or maybe, and I am just spit balling here,

Yes, you are

that the way audiophiles do listening tests with their eyes is wrong. Just do the darn test blind.

This is only true in ASR world where you expect someone buying a cable to have a panel of trained listeners and the proper testing conditions for a blind test. Good luck with that, you don’t even do proper blind testing on ASR and then want to throw spitballs at our members.... no.

Test a dozen times and see if you can tell the tweak has done anything. Don’t confuse people with these false conclusions.

You first :) Post your system in your system profile along with your in room frequency response graph and components. If you did double blind testing on any component you purchased please share, thanks.

Here is the link to the virtual systems page:

He's baaaack to instill his great knowledge over us.  I guess business is slow or he feels compelled to save his site (for us, against us, who knows)?   

@fleschler , do you think there's hope? Maybe he will start to participate instead of talk down to us.

@amir_asr, your link provided I’ve likely read from start to finish & finish to start a half dozen times since inception. Make that seven now for its been a while.

@dabel, I thought so but wanted to make sure others could follow the conversation as well.  

@fleschler 

He's baaaack to instill his great knowledge over us.  I guess business is slow or he feels compelled to save his site (for us, against us, who knows)?   

Oh.  You had named ASR in your OP and lamented lack of measurements for cables so I thought I ask you about your cable to see how genuine you were in your thread started.

Since you have no measurements, do you have an idea of how much air it will inject into my system?  And the hours of burn in it requires to do that?

Townshend has a couple videos that use a iPad running a seismic app that displays vibrations very well. This works great for speakers, but the iPad is too heavy for testing smaller isolation gear. I tried an iPhone app, even the iPhone is way too heavy. If anyone knows an affordable motion detector that is very light weight (ounce or two at most) please let me know, I would love to test the Cable Cradles.

Laser…. Those. Photons are so heavy… but good test gear is $ … btw in wide use at speaker companies that care about… resonance and vibration….

@millercarbon : welcome back! I just noticed

Thyname, very much appreciated, thanks. 

@amir_asr , you still have not posted your system, pics or measurements either, please stop spit balling. 

@amir_asr Please do not bother the cable manufacturer.  We don't care how much air is injected into your system (who knows what that is as @kota asks) or how long the burn in is (about 24 hours) for your system.   You must be busy answering every forum where ASR is mentioned.  Too bad.

iFi has an interesting new power cable, the SupaNova and does post some specs:

iFi Supanova Power Cable

and an interesting review can be found  here:

@fleschler 

@amir_asr Please do not bother the cable manufacturer.  We don't care how much air is injected into your system (who knows what that is as @kota asks) or how long the burn in is (about 24 hours) for your system. 

Well, @kota claimed the Audioquest Go-4 cable I was testing on ASR needing 200 hours of burn in:  

"If you want performance you need to get NEW cables on loan from a DEALER who has a return policy. Then, after around 100 hours of brek in, go for it."

How do you reckon he figured out the 100 hour number for any test system but you can't?   When you were experimenting with the cable you were building, did you wait 100 hours between every change to see the results?  If not, where do you think he got these numbers?

As to air, I am very disappointed that you think your cables can't do that for me.  What are the qualifications for systems which can accept such air from your cable?  Are they listed on manufacturer website?  Or is it a random thing and what you say about improvement may not be there at all as you are implying with my system?

And why is it a "bother" for manufacture to provide such specific data?  You created a thread asking manufacturers to provide data to us as customers.  Now you say we shouldn't bother them??? Are they in a privileged position with no competition as to us treating them special in this regard?

Really, you seem to be saying other cable companies should do this and that the one  you are involved in, should be exempt?   

@amir_asr , you need to check your source, I said 100 hours to burn in a cable. If you continue through that same thread I also said if you want to be specific ask the manufacturer, and then you banned me!!

As for your search for a cable with more "air", may I present the iFi Supanova!! Air is listed if you look at the pictures of the iFi Supanova cable I just posted, did you miss it? See page 8. Remember, don’t ask for double blind tests unless you do them yourself:

@amir_asr , you need to check your source, I said 100 hours to burn in a cable. 

What do you think I am talking about??? You claimed the Audioquest cable requires 100 hours with no facts backing it.  I am now asking @fleschler who has been involved in design of some cable and is promoting here, what the burn in is for that.  And why it is that it won't pump air into my system as a matter of principle.  I didn't know cables were picky about who is trying to use them.

As for your search for a cable with more "air", may I present the iFi Supanova!!

What is wrong with the cable @fleschler is selling us on?  It lacks a compressor to put in any air???  How many hours does the ifi take to burn in before said air feature comes on?  I WANT MY BLOODY AIR!!! 

@kota1 

Remember, don’t ask for double blind tests unless you do them yourself:

That's like asking your doctor if he knows how to practice medicine!  Of course I have performed double blind tests.  I have not only done them, I have post them online many times.  I show a number of them in this video including techniques for passing difficult ones:

Have you run any such tests?  Has @fleschler run any to show effectiveness of the cable he is promoting?  

@amir_asr , thank you for posting the video and your attention to detail. I watched the testing you discussed at the 24 minute mark. I have done my own version of this test more for amusement than science. First I open up Tidal and create a new playlist. Next I upload two versions of the same album, one in HIFI and one in Masters. Then I hit shuffle and see how many times I can pick what type of track is playing. To do a blind listening test with speaker cables or interconnects requires a more elaborate setup (something like the Van Alstine ABX Comparator) . I don’t know how you would do a blind listening test of a power cable with that device.
So, I don’t see how the video you posted would help a member test cables or other components.

Please post another video or just some pics of your system and listening room if you have time. If you are the "doctor" let’s see if you are taking your own medicine OK? Don’t forget to post the in room frequency response. 

Air, air, air. I have no idea what this guy means by more air, pumping air into a system. For a scientist, this sounds dumb.  What's in this guys' system-squipment unknown (insufficient air).

Lack of air can be noticeable where instruments and voices lack any ambiance which is recorded naturally (so many recordings use plate, digital or room reverb to simulate "air)." So, if a recording sounds flat, lacking in depth, dimensionality, and/or soundstage, it maybe lacking in "air."

My friend does not measure each cable. (Neither do most high end cable manufacturers). That is a flaw in his construction whereby there can be variances in each cable. However, after listening to multiple cables of the same make, I rarely heard any difference. The primary difference in power cables were the A/C plugs and IECs. Power cables are the least returned cable he manufactures (he said none).

…

However, after listening to multiple cables of the same make, I rarely heard any difference.

….

#metoo 😎

So, I don’t see how the video you posted would help a member test cables or other components.

I explained how you do that in the video.  Setup your system such that you don't know which cable is used (cover/hide it).  Then have a loved one randomly switch one cable for the other.  You keep score of which is which as does the person doing the switching for you.  Do this 10 times and see if you can correctly identify one cable at least 8 times.  Seeing how in sighted tests major fidelity changes are reported, then this process should back that up.  If not, then the sighted tests are faulty.

If you are unwilling or unable to do such tests, then my measurements and null tests are an excellent substitute.  In some cases I have actually provided the captured outputs of the system so you can use any ABX software tool to compare them.

So very easy to do when it comes to cables (or any other audio tweak) which is the topic of this thread.

A comment, or clarification: measurements are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. 

When building something it can be very useful to measure certain parameters, in order to quantify progress in design changes, especially changes that might be below the threshold of audibility. Or it might also be useful to measure in order to discern what quantitative measures correlate with listener preference. Keith Herron for example once told me he believed people were sensitive to as little as 1/4dB in a certain circuit. This is far too low a level for anyone to identify as being louder or pick that out as the reason, they simply preferred one over another and only Keith knew the reason.

The takeaway, what I got from it anyway, was three-fold:

First, his testing was double-blind. So there is a use case even for this so often abused method.

Second, measurements can be essential. It was only by rigorously measuring output that he knew what it was his test subjects were hearing, or more precisely choosing between.

And third and most crucially, the end goal was listener preference. Not the measurement. The experience. 

Say again, measurements are a means to an end. If you can keep this simple fact in mind any time you see anyone putting the cart before the horse, it can save you a whole lot of misery, wasted time, and money.

And now, at the risk of beating a now hopefully dead horse, I was not looking for a way of measuring cable vibrations to prove Cable Cradles work. Simply listen, it is obvious. I was looking for something that might help me figure out how to make them even better. There is always better. The proof is in the hearing. That is all.

@millercarbon I certainly agree with you but unfortunately, the highness of all things audio through measurement declares we are mislead, foolish and wasteful of our money.  A few others declared experts in mastering and sound reproduction as well as myself and friends as incompetent in discerning gross differences in sound and whether the sound is better or worse.  Hence, this site debunking the measurements uber all (well, primarily the ASR/Amir site) without the testing and measuring of the differences for audiophiles and music lovers.  If you read my previously posts, you'll know that I consider some measurements fundamental in matching equipment (speakers to amps, amps to pre-amps and cartridges to arms for example).  As to cables and tweaks, it becomes more of a listeners preference and not "snake oil."  Seasoned and expert listeners can easily discern better, worse and subtle/slight differences and each may have a preferential sound.  I have two friends with contrary opinions, one prefers and upfront, detailed (brighter) sound and another prefers a laid back, warm and fullsome sound.  Neither of them are wrong in their preference.  Neither of the approaches necessary denote that the equipment is faulty or measures significantly differently.  It's a combination of equipment in a system in a particular room/acoustics which determines the sound combined with the other elements such as power source, humidity, temperature, cabling and perhaps tweaks to create the sound the person prefers.  It is not easy to do.  That is why audio shows and audio salons strive to combine components which work together and present a unified sound, one type or another.  

Yes, I am aware of that hopelessly lost, muddled, and illogical view. Hopeless, because they won't listen. Lost, because it forgets the reason for music in the first place is enjoyment. Muddled, because it pretends to serve as a guide and frame of reference, when in fact it removes them all. Or let them prove otherwise, simply tell us what measurements and in what order and proportion they can be used to rank performance. Illogical, because they pretend to be mind readers. After all, how else would THEY know YOU wasted YOUR money? 

Nonsense on stilts, a smorgasbord of it, from soup to nuts.

@millercarbon That's great.  +1

@amir_asr , OK, thanks for sharing. The last time I did the test you just posted was when I auditioned a Mapleshade Digital Interconnect I had for a 30 day trial (about $250). After about 100 hrs of break in I "blind tested" it with my current cable and it was MUCH better so I kept it. The guys at Mapleshade actually insist on customers doing their own "shootouts" and you can always return within 30 days. You can tell they are VERY confident and stand behind their products.

Looking forward to checking out your virtual system with the FR measurements.

Here is a video of the type of blind test you posted about, not necessarily scientific but could be interesting:

@millercarbon +100 "it can be very useful to measure certain parameters, in order to quantify progress in design changes, especially changes that might be below the threshold of audibility"

- manufacturing of components includes key measurements to make sure parameters are within commit spec.

I have to repost this from Pleasurably better, not measurably better forum as it's a hoot.  @chmaiwald wrote: 

This chase for neutrality (or accuracy or however you want to call it) makes me wonder. Audio setups with a strong sonic signature aside, it‘s like investing so much in finding something that has least personality. From the top of my hat I can‘t think of any hobby or whatever gives you pleasure where least personality is something widely accepted as the ultimate goal.

“I went out dining, and let me tell you, that casserole was so accurate. I loved its linearity. I measured it.“

I‘m joking of course, but I think there‘s something to it. 

I responded with:  Great!  Food comparison.  McDonald's burgers measure better than any other fast food burger for consistency.   Despite that, I only eat Angus ground sirloin burgers at Le Petit French restaurant because they taste better to me.  Amir's answer-Le Petit's burgers are too expensive so I am throwing away money when I could have purchased half a dozen McDonald's.  

I’m pleased to see Mr Majidimehr is back. Less so that he is gasping for air. Yoga practice is the key to good breathing I think. Exhale ego, inhale air.

Another possibility: as we know, in audio terminology air is the frequency band at the top of the treble range starting around 12-14 kHz. Older gentlemen can’t hear it so well.

@axo1989

Yoga practice is the key to good breathing I think. Exhale ego, inhale air.

Thanks coach.  Do you hold classes on this everyday or every other?

My dog is a big believer in yoga by the way:

Another possibility: as we know, in audio terminology air is the frequency band at the top of the treble range starting around 12-14 kHz. Older gentlemen can’t hear it so well.

Good thinking.  Going by topic of this thread, there should be age ratings for said cables.  That way, the older audiophiles wouldn't waste money on them.  

@fleschler 

“I went out dining, and let me tell you, that casserole was so accurate. I loved its linearity. I measured it.“

Food is the same as the music.  It is the creation.  Don't confuse that with playback which plays similar role to the plate that the food comes on.  You don't want to have a dirty plate and you certainly don't want your plate to add flavor to your food.  Some of you seem to not only want to violate these rules, but also pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for the privilege of it!

That aside, was this whole thread a farce?  You actually don't want to see measurements for cables?  You were playing with us?

Accuracy is a myth in audio playback, no system sounds like live unamplified music, so why not just use what you enjoy to listen to. 

Power Cable shootout (wear headphones)

@amir_asr 

That aside, was this whole thread a farce?  You actually don't want to see measurements for cables?  You were playing with us?

Are you here to throw more spitballs again? The guy that measures doesn't have any measurements about his own system? Embarrassing. If you are experiencing "technical difficulties" please post what they are and I am sure I can help, NP.

@invalid

Accuracy is a myth in audio playback, no system sounds like live unamplified music, so why not just use what you enjoy to listen to. 

Don't tell that to a lot of people around here.  Many think the purpose of the audio system is to replicate live music! 

But yes, you are right that a recording is never the same as a live presentation.  Once created though, you don't want to a) put in tweaks that make no audible difference but cost money and b) overlay the same tonality on everything you play. If you do, that is fine but just don't advocate it as being "higher fidelity."  

Mind you, as you say, you are welcome to do (b) but just don't keep saying that is what people should do.  Studies show that we all like accurate sound when only the ear is involved.

@kota1 

@amir_asr , OK, thanks for sharing. The last time I did the test you just posted was when I auditioned a Mapleshade Digital Interconnect I had for a 30 day trial (about $250). After about 100 hrs of break in I "blind tested" it with my current cable and it was MUCH better so I kept it.

Well you made a big mistake.  If I predict the outcome of a coin flip, do you think I can do that forever?  It could be pure luck, right?  What if I did that twice in a row?  Still could be luck.  How about 4 times?  Yes, it could still be luck.  Indeed I have run blind tests where I got it right 4 or 5 times only to completely fail after that.

If you go back to the start of the video I linked to, I explain the above.  And how claims of "I ran a blind test" mean nothing unless they are repeated and backed by that statistical analysis to reduce the chances of pure luck.  For this reason I keep saying run a test 10 times and see if 8 out of that many tests you can identify the cable. 

If a cable is "MUCH" better, you should be able to tell it apart 20 times and still get it right.  So fire up your camera, start shooting a video of how many times in a row you can tell that cable from another.  Then we have something to talk about.  Until then, the only thing you demonstrated is that you still don't know how to properly get to audio truth.

Also, nothing about your anecdote validates the requirement for 100 hours of break in.  You need to go and get a fresh cable and compare it to the 100 hour broken one and see if you can get at least 8 out of 10 times right.  You say the company gives you 30 days free trial.  So when can be expect this result?

Until then, your starting claim in ASR that Audioquest cable needed 100 hours of break in before testing is just nonsense.  Heck, that cable is even different than yours so how can you claim both need the same 100 hours???

@kota1 

Are you here to throw more spitballs again? The guy that measures doesn't have any measurements about his own system? Embarrassing. If you are experiencing "technical difficulties" please post what they are and I am sure I can help, NP.

Thank you for the offer. But before you volunteer time to help me, see if you can help yourself in your audio beliefs.  Per above, I am still trying to figure out why you claim 100 hours of break is mandatory for a cable.  Or answering OP's question of why cable measurements are not provided as I do every time I review one on ASR.

Remember, earlier you claimed I had never run double blind tests and I showed you I had run many.  I suggest checking your knowledge of me before shooting from the hip again. 

Let me also add that if you want measurements for a cable, I am happy to do that.  While I am getting a bit exhausted from testing so many and finding none modify the output of the audio system, I am still here if you want to have that data.  Cables are small and light to ship so not much burden.  And I usually pay for return shipping so you are only out of pocket for the expense of sending it me.

If you were never interested in such measurements but created a topic asking for it anyway, then say so and we go about our business instead of dealing with a Kabuki theater.

@amir_asr , well you finally engaged. All you posted was your opinion of a system you never heard (mine) with a cable you never used (the Mapleshade Digital IC) and clearly have no idea or evidence to back up anything. Well, let’s go with that.

OK, so let me give you a track to run on. This is an example of a cable review by someone who tried the Mapleshade cables BEFORE coming to a conclusion. I would say my experience was more similar to 3 people that came to the same conclusions in this article:

https://positive-feedback.com/Issue3/mapleshade.htm

@amir_asr ,

You made a BIG mistake, when you didn’t align your system within your room. DSP is limited in what it can do. I think you can rectify your mistake if you work on your room (which is why you won’t post pics and FR if I am not mistaken). You may not agree with @fleschler on everything but the guy gets props for knowing how to build a room. Maybe you can start a build thread for a new listening room/studio?

Those expensive Revel speakers you own are going to waste I am afraid. You are worried about my wasting $250 and hear you are shredding dollar bills every time you listen without your room tuned, a mistake for an average listener but a disaster for a reviewer.

My info is based on the disdain you posted for room treatments in your review of the Paradigm PW Link. If you updated your room we would all like to see pics. Thanks

That is precious calling Amir a reviewer. 

He is not that he is this.

A shill is a hustler or con-person who tries to convince other people to buy something or think something is great (shilling). The shill has ulterior motives for their actions, usually because they are the actual seller or have something to gain if the product sells well.

Those expensive Revel speakers you own are going to waste I am afraid. You are worried about my wasting $250 and hear you are shredding dollar bills every time you listen without your room tuned, a mistake for an average listener but a disaster for a reviewer.

 

@juanmanuelfangioii , it is what it is. When I look at some of the rooms of our members in the virtual systems area it provides context and many of them are simply awe inspiring like these. If you are putting yourself out there as an expert I think it takes more than just a microphone and a computer. If @amir_asr posts something (anything) let's see if he can walk, or if all he does is talk (spitball):

or