Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

@amir_asr , my sincere compliments on your accomplishments.

Now that you listed your creds I feel even better we are beating you at the

system/FR measurement throw down-

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 0

You can have a rematch anytime, with those creds you should do much better in the rematch, just answer the bell this time and post your system pics, components, and FR graph in your profile.

Otherwise that really long post of your impressive creds= just more hot air.

 

 

@jerryg123 

I also know you are not an EE all you are is some guy with some software (that a member had to teach you how to use) and then you banished him from ASR.

 

My background is an open book.  It is linked to every post on ASR for example: 

I do have an electrical engineering degree.  But importantly, I grew up with electronics.  No way I could do what I am doing without that knowledge.  Here is a bit of what is posted there on my background:

"Without giving away my exact age, I grew up in 1960s with analog electronics as my primary hobby. Learned that from my oldest brother who likewise had the same hobby and spent his nights and days designing electronics. This gave me an intuition for analog electronics which to this day serves me better any textbook or formal education.

Speaking of formal education, I naturally aimed to get an Electrical Engineering degree which I received in early 1980s (still trying hard to not give away my age!). During that time though, the personal computer revolution was upon us and I quickly fell in love with my second hobby: software. I programmed my Apple II and later managed the computer lab at the college where I wrote a bunch of custom software including an editor all the students used to write their programs.

During schooling, I worked at an electronics repair shop, fixing everything from audio equipment to VHF radios. That childhood experience really got cemented combined with a new skill of having to troubleshoot equipment, usually with no schematic. All in all, I repaired hundreds of pieces of equipment, getting a good feel for quality engineering versus not.

[...]

In late 1980s I had an opportunity to work at the computer division of Sony. Initially the job was building a software team to develop Unix but we proposed and won approval to design and build our own hardware to go with it. There we went deep, developing our own ASICs (large scale custom electronic IC), motherboards, audio subsystem, power supply, LCD display etc. Working for Sony was great as at that time they were in their peak of success and their quality standards were quite high. We combined that with great engineering from US in silicon valley and really pushed state of the art in design and simulation at that time."

There is more there and you can also look up on my LinkedIn profile.

My measurements of hardware is with Audio Precision APx555.  It is not "software" but software controls it of course.  I have had an AP since early 1990s so am quite familiar with how to use it.  Speaker measurements are with Klippel Near-field Scanner ($100K system).  I don't need the help of some random person you say we banned at ASR.

If this is how you research your facts about audio, no wonder you are so lost in the woods there.

@holmz

Thanks @axo1989 I’ll do that.

I was aiming for sympathetic humour, not trying to insult you, sorry if it misfired.

If I don’t get your point, then maybe I have too low an IQ and you’re just a genius.

@fleschler I doubt it, but I am smart enough not to argue it.

 

I suspect that your system and mine are more similar than dissimilar, in equipment choice. And that they likely sound pretty similar. Your’s is probably better, and mine is good enough for me.

There is some correlation with “pleasurably better” and “measures better.” Your cartridge sounds like it might be an example of that.

 

Again, you have not read my postings.

I read the last post, where you quoted me out of a whole different thread, and how everyone hears differently.
I think that that response should have gone in that thread, but here we are.

You likely want your system to sound both like the real singer in a live performance, and also sound good to you. Maybe you twist a tone control, I dunno, but I suspect I would not find it too edgy or nor too dull.

And I suspect if I twisted your tone controls around so that it sounded bad to me, that our hearing is not so different that it would sound good to you.
Yeah - It’s possible, but I doubt it.

@fleschler 

 

My hearing is fine.

Ok, so that makes two of us.

 

Sighted tests are verboten? They can only be guesses and wrong. Like rolling dice? Must have measurements! Must be ABX blind testing! Sounds as ridiculous as it is.

So you have never truly put ONLY your hearing to the test where you can't cheat. 

Ok.  (except, apparently, via an audiogram. And it's funny you'd accept those results, which are a blind test, but refuse to accept the validity of blind testing components for what you can *really* hear or not).

If you ever do so you may find it enlightening.  As I've said, between us it seems my approach shows the greater humility.

But it's clear by now we can't seem to communicate about this issue.

We'll talk gear elsewhere.  Cheers.

@holmz  Again, you have not read my postings.  I am very concerned with test measurements to begin/began my search for equipment.  My speakers are very low distortion, especially at low frequencies and are relatively neutral without major humps or bumps.  My tube gear is on the warm side of neutral but not "tubey," or high in distortion, even or odd, from low to high power range.  My cartridge test measured flat from 10Hz to 20Khz per the test sheet (unlike Lyras with their rising high end test measurements I've seen as well a heard).  

Where there are no measurements, I use trial and error as does everyone I know locally (and that's 100s of audiophiles, music lovers, etc). 

If I don't get your point, then maybe I have too low an IQ and you're just a genius.  

@holmz "And it does not matter what every member of the audience is hearing..."

If you’re a member of the audience, it certainly does! It matters to oneself.

Ultimately, it does not matter what every measurement is telling me, if it doesn’t sound great to me, with my ears, in my room, to my taste

@fleschler I try it again, but it seems I am not making the point simply enough.

If there is a singer, and people are listening to the singer, they are all listening to the same thing. Maybe those audience members not hear above 4 or 8kHz, or miss out on any low frequencies… whatever it is that they hear, if the same song was played back flat, where there is no difference between the real singer and the playback, so they would hear the same thing in playback as the live performance.

And… that applies to everyone in the audience.

I suppose that we can talk about the room that the performance is in not be uniform, and that at different locations there is an actual difference of sound… but let’s ignore that.

The audience may all hear differently, but they are hearing the same thing.
And if it is played back exactly the same then they should hear it as sounding the same, and we can quantify how accurate it is.

The glasses and laser surgery are more like room correction, to make the vision be the same. 

Whether you, or anyone else, prefers the tone controls adjusted is all fine and dandy… but brightening up the high frequencies by 10 or 20dB to account for hearing loss will result in the playback not being like the actual singer.
That actually live performance would then sound dull… which is fine if it is admitted that the playback is preferred over the live performance. But it is not the same as what was heard live.

 

And similarly; when people look at a Van Gogh painting, whether they see in black and white, or blurry, they are looking at the same painting. If the colours are shifted in hue, then it may look better, but it is a different rendition of the painting.

We should not confuse what is technically correct with preference. Whether we like it correct or not, is indeed taste and preference.

The tread topic was about spec and measurements, and how almost none of the manufacturers provide that data. Now it almost seems like you do not care about that data, and do not want to see it, as it doesn’t matter anyhow and you only want to get what aligns with your preference. Which seems to ignore, or imply, that you preference cannot correlate with any measurements or specs… and that it is a hopeless endeavour to even try?

 

The idea of manufacturers specs and measurements is that if one wants it correct, then they have an easy way to find that gear. And if they want it to have the BBC sound, then it makes it easy to identify the gear that has that particular sound.

Without measurements and specs, we have only the option to fly or drive around and find shops that carry that gear, and listen to them all… to figure out if it aligns with our preference or not.
Once we have heard a few systems and decide we like (for instance) the BBC sound, then we can pretty quickly go from hundreds of speakers choices, down to dozens… and it becomes a more tractable problem of listening to only those.

 

Personally I prefer more neutral speakers and lower distortion.
I can just throw a tube preamp in to tailor it to my preference, and then I only have spice in the preamp, and not scattered throughout the system. Or I can use a DSP.

We can have the specs and measurement and ignore them, but we cannot choose to look at the specs and measurements if they do not exist, or are hidden. I would rather have the choice of them existing and what the manufacturer is making to be advertised truthfully and transparently. I can always choose to ignore it if I want to.

@kota I know. I only upgraded my analog with a new SUT to suit my former cartridge in 17 years. I now use a 1/3 less costly cartridge which sounds great with most of my collection. I have the same amps/pre-amp/phono pre for 20-22 years. It was only the digital realm that needed upgrading and I am successful at that so no more digital upgrades either. My ICs, power and speaker cables remain the same since 2018. My speakers are very good but when I can afford to, I want to upgrade them for similar sound, better dispersion (seating area) and ambiance retrieval. The more efficient line of Von Schweikert speakers I’ve heard would be ideal.

I’ve gone to two local homes with $$$$ speakers in $$$$ excellent built rooms but with either terrible cabling and/or equipment which ruined the sound. The equipment and/or cabling were just not synergistic (or could never be good sounding eg: High Fidelity cables).

Notice that I have a tapestry mounted on the front wall. I have not found something as thin and slightly absorptive that can compensate for the slight upper right corner echo we hear without it. I’ll check out GIK because they have inexpensive, cardboardy material that might work. I’ve tried a half dozen other panels which were either too absorptive or too reflective.

@fleschler , it is so much less expensive to treat a room (maybe not an auditorium) than to keep switching out components.  Not that it can’t be made better, there is no perfect anywhere, but it is so "right" you just don’t have that same upgraditis any more (at least not to the same degree :) )

I had to work with the room I got, members who have purpose built rooms/studios very fortunate. The Auralex products are so inexpensive for what they deliver, at least in my room it was a great result.

When I see $$$$ speakers in a room surrounded by hard flat surfaces I feel bad, both for the speaker designer whose "vision" gets stuck in a less than ideal setup, and for the owner who is flushing that investment away.

You see people going on and on about what room correction software that came with their receiver and they spend big money to get the one they want. Then they stick that kilobuck receiver in the same untreated room and expect it will be magic, no.

This is a pretty good breakdown on how to get the best of both worlds, DSP and room treatments working together, even if you are not a Sound United customer.

At 5:00 in the video "If you use DSP you want it to do the least amount of work possible..... it can only do so much":

 

@kota1 +1 You are so correct.  Some audiophiles feel that the listening room is 50% of the sound.  I know from my experience, that getting the room acoustics right is fundamental to maximize the quality of the sound.  As you can read/see from my listening room components and construction, I get high end sound out of less than exorbitantly priced equipment because of my dedication to creating a favorable listening environment.  My neighbor wanted to purchase my home before I did and convert the 20X20X10 living room into a listening room because his room is just average with $1/2 million audio system.  At least he finally got cabling right so that it is now a very enjoyable listening experience at his house.  

My hearing is fine. It was tested twice in the past two years. My upper limit is 16 Khz, the tester said at normal amplitude which I do not know. I have exceptional hearing for my age as does my 88 year old mother. I must have great hearing and reflexes while sleeping to hear my wife’s Dexcom/phone alarm which just beeps to provide her with juice when her blood sugar drops and she would otherwise die.  She sleeps through fire alarms and has no awareness of low blood sugars after 61 years of Type 1 diabetes.  So, my hearing is critical to my marriage.

I also am very depended upon by an orchestra, chamber group and many choirs to make good recordings in major venues. My recordings are generally superior to current over-reverberant, distantly miked modern recordings. My chamber work has the clarity of the best jazz recordings.

There is a multitude of forums not on ASR and my above cited new Audiogon forum which is what I believe about measurements as a starting point, trial and error and personal listening preferences. You don’t like it, do what you want. I don’t need to be lectured as to right and wrong.

Sighted tests are verboten? They can only be guesses and wrong. Like rolling dice? Must have measurements! Must be ABX blind testing! Sounds as ridiculous as it is.

 

 

@fleschler

 

Are you deaf (or rather taste depleted that you can’t tell salt from sugar)?

I believe you have lobbed that insult more than once.

Can you tell me specifically what I wrote that leads you to think I have poor hearing?

My discernment for characteristics in sound, both large and minute, is routinely put under scrutiny for my job. I make a living with my hearing. I can't just brag about my hearing on an internet board.   If my hearing sucks, I lose my job.  How about you?

I’ve also put my hearing under rigorous tests where I don’t get to "peek" and ACTUALLY use ONLY my hearing to see what I can tell apart. That is: blind tests.

How often have you truly tested your hearing - your hearing ONLY! - rather than when you know what you are listening to? If you continue to brag about how you can tell things apart in "sighted" tests where you know different gear is being switched, that’s about as "impressive" as saying you can tell me what number the dice will roll...but only if you first get to look at the result after the roll.

 

 

 

One manufacturer that I use that posts specs and measurements is Auralex for my room treatments. Of all the things you can screw up in a system you don’t want to screw up the room. I find their products an excellent value as well. They were really helpful answering questions about my setup too and offer a free room analysis, very responsive. If anyone reading this hasn’t bothered to treat their room yet don’t wait. If you look at the pics in my profile you can see various treatments, bass traps, absorbers, diffusors. You can’t really hear what your system is capable of until you tune the room. DSP is limited in what it can do:

https://auralex.com/spec-sheets/

They have an app you use to design your layout too:

 

Thanks @axo1989 I’ll do that.

@holmz 

This thread is like a group therapy session for 4th graders.

And you were hoping to give up that teaching job and travel.

My comments: @chmaiwald Great!  Food comparison.  McDonald's burgers measure better than any other fast food burger for consistency.   Despite that, I only eat Angus ground sirloin burgers at Le Petit French restaurant because they taste better to me.  Amir's answer-Le Petit's burgers are too expensive so I am throwing away money when I could have purchased half a dozen McDonald's.  

 

From @chmaiwald 

From the top of my hat I can‘t think of any hobby or whatever gives you pleasure where least personality is something widely accepted as the ultimate goal.

“I went out dining, and let me tell you, that casserole was so accurate. I loved its linearity. I measured it.“

I‘m joking of course, but I think there‘s something to it. 

From a newer Forum by @erik_squires   Pleasurably better, not measurably better

I have created a new phrase: pleasurably better.

I am giving it to the world. Too many technophiles are concerned with measurably better, but rarely talk about what sounds better. What gives us more pleasure. The two may lie at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I use and respect measurements all the time, but I will never let any one of them dictate to me what I actually like listening to.

From @curtdr 

Everybody's ears are different... So, if something measures "flat," that's not necessarily how my ear hears it; so, for my pleasure factor, I may prefer speakers that rise in the high frequencies to somewhat offset my ears' drop in highs, as a simple example.

The point about Bose is well-taken.  It depends on the audience and the application.  While not my primary listening speakers, I have a pair of original 301 v1, refoamed woofer of course, hanging by wires under my porch awning.  We play poker out there.  Everybody including me loves the sound, in that application.  We're not critically listening, and it doesn't matter: we like it.

A speaker series that defies the "measure flat = great" metric is of course the Klipsch Heritage series.  The sort of "it ain't perfect but it doesn't even matter because it sounds so very engaging" experience that many people, most critics included, adore.  Even the Heresy IV have moved me to tears on occasion, and I "grew up" as a neutral leaning sort of guy.  They're like a gateway drug... it's hard to go back to more laid back sound, once you get used to 'em... and the problem is, they have me jones-ing for more:  Forte IV, here I come???  

@erik_squires 

What if I like 2.8% distortion?  Sure, we can measure it, but the engineering goal of lower is not the same as my personal listening goal of making things that sound good to me. 

 

If you prefer 2.8% distortion that's fine and dandy.
Who knows, on certain music and certain genres I might like it too.

But then again what if this 2.8% distortion is always audible, on all music?

What if this sometimes nice distortion on some recordings then turns into nasty distortion that you can't 'hear through'?

Perhaps the strongest argument for neutrality is that you get to hear the differences in different recordings rather than them all being smothered in the same sonic sauce.

I recall that of the criticisms of the Linn LP12 was that it put it's own sonic signature on everything that was played upon it, as opposed to decks like the Pink Triangle which were far more neutral.

This sonic signature (midbass warmth?) could sometimes suit certain types of music (jazz soul and funk?) and sometimes spoil others (piano, strings, pop, and rock?). 

 

I was again reminded of this whilst watching the latest video from the audiophlliac himself, Steve Guttenberg, who recently changed his reference loudspeakers.

One of the reasons Steve puts forward for swapping his Klipsch Cornwall's for the PureAudioProject Duet 15's is exactly this issue about neutrality.

Even if the Cornwall's do other things better, the more neutral 15s allow you to hear the differences between recordings better. 

The problem with audible distortion is that there is no such thing as an entirely benevolent distortion in all cases..

@holmz "To say that the ears are all different would be like saying that the feel of a block of ice or a hot stove is different because all people “feel” differently."

No... we have glasses or custom lasik to correct for differences in vision, some people even have color blindness, and we all have different hearing profiles. If we all had 20/20 vision and hearing, nobody would need correction. As for old and hot, 32 is 32 and 212 is 212, freezing and boiling.... (and even so, some people wear jackets when it's 70 degree weather, while others are loving it in shorts and t-shirt). But that’s not the same as flat to 20hz when my hearing isn’t flat to 20 hz.​​​​​​... If my hearing rolls off at 12hz, then a speaker that rises at that point might actually sound "flatter" to me, at my point of perception, than one that does not rise to compensate for my ears’ rolloff point.

This is why we have bass and treble controls too... to help compensate not only for our own individual hearing but also for our own personal preferences and purposes. It’s music, for crying out loud! Taste matters. I’ve seen plenty of "technically perfect" performances that were boring, boring to me, anyway. There’s something to be said for heart and soul... immeasurable factors. It doesn’t make sense to say one "should" prefer this or that sound, especially if one is reasonably cognizant of audio. Somebody who tells me I should prefer some speaker instead of one that I actually, in usage in my home, like pleasurably better... well, I can confidently dismiss that person’s opinion in that case.

Saying flat is ideal always reminds me of philosophers who have very neat ideal theories which then bump up against real world experience; I’m oversimplifying, but Kant’s "everybody should be treated as if they were all equally rational" comes to mind, and Rawl’s "social justice" theories, as does Marx’s so-called "scientific" economic theories, however compelling on paper... some universal theory of human experience will never, as far as I can tell, be formulated.

Not to dismiss measurements, I check 'em out myself, but technical measurements of equipment don't dictate the pleasure factor of individual listeners... never have, and, as far as I can tell, never will.  The evidence of this claim can easily be seen by the variety of individual choices sophisticated audiophiles make when it comes to our own preferred speakers, for example, in our homes.  In old school terms, "east coast sound vs. west coast sound,"  ... and on and on.  

@holmz "And it does not matter what every member of the audience is hearing..."

If you’re a member of the audience, it certainly does! It matters to oneself.

Ultimately, it does not matter what every measurement is telling me, if it doesn’t sound great to me, with my ears, in my room, to my taste.

Like someone earlier in this thread here, I am not here to serve the gear, the gear is here to serve me... so matter how "good" or how "bad" the measurable performance, if it doesn’t serve me pleasurably better, then it has no place in my home. Some "audiophiles" really are more "technophiles;" and technophilia has it’s place, but it ain’t gonna dictate my loving audio preferences.

I’ve heard plenty of speakers that "measure better" but that I do not like as much as certain personal trusty pleasurables, so obviously it would be downright silly to buy the less enjoyable speakers just because they measure better! (unless I’m trying to impress somebody other than myself... or if I’m being masochistic or audio-moralistic and insisting to myself that I should like the less enjoyable speakers, and damnit I’m going to make myself like them better because I "should"... )

 

 

@prof I am not an "expert" but it only takes a layman to hear SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES.  Are you deaf (or rather taste depleted that you can't tell salt from sugar)?  I have many friends, some who are experts in sound who do this for a living and very successfully for some of them, others as a serious hobby.  THEY DON'T MEASURE EVERY DIFFERENCE, it's a waste of time if the difference is significant, for better or worse.  If it is just different but neither better or worse, they just say whatever one prefers.  Look at the construction of a Pangea $65 power cable and a Grover Huffman $350 or $750 power cable.  HUGE difference.   Patent issued for the Grover Huffman cable.  I am not stating that it is the best cable in the world or for any system over other cables (only the ones I've compared them to).  I KNOW from several systems which switched out those cables that those equipment owners are delighted to have greatly upgraded their audio systems at a reasonable cost.  You don't have to believe me, that's your prerogative.  However, no one will be wasting their $100s on inferior garbage cables using superior cables. 

Again, maybe all those above posts don't believe cables make any sonic difference.  Then don't read my analysis as you will be sorely disappointed.  Go back to your "snake oil" forums on ASR.   

Talk about wasting $10,000s and more on cables would be using the very inferior design (electrically provable yet patented) High Fidelity cables.  Some people love them.  Most who have heard them don't, including my personal experience with a wealthy analog audiophile who dumped them when he knew he was experiencing shrill and thin sound (he came over to my home and my relatively puny system had his jaw drop versus his $1 million system.   Luckily for the majority of audiophiles, High Fidelity cables corporation is defunct saving the public from bad and very expensive cables.  Contrarywise, I have never heard a less than excellent system using Masterbuilt cables despite their equally high price when used with Von Schweikert speakers.  I have no idea about their construction or test measurements.  They do work magnificently on those speakers though and in those associated systems.  And if you don't believe me on this, how about the 40 or 50 reviewers of the Von Schweikert speaker demonstrations over the past few years which had reportedly had them transfixed, spending hours past midnight and earning among the most awards as best in show.  I doubt that so many people are being mislead.  Maybe Masterbuilt cables aren't the best or best for their cost but they certainly earn credibility in the best show systems in audio.  

We could all pause and take a good look at ourselves occasionally.
 

One could argue that sticking to the thread topic is not trolling.
If you want to try that sometime, then I am sure few would complain… @jerryg123 

… then you can change your moniker to jerry1234.

@holmz Guess that is why you keep coming back eh.

This thread is like a group therpy session for 4th graders

@kota1 

whatever floats your boat is cool, I agree. But you shouldn't cast spitballs at other peoples boats when yours has holes in it, right? 

Well, one of the "different choices" I'd make is to be less of a [redacted] on the interwebs. Whether I succeed is another matter. 🙂

@axo1989 , whatever floats your boat is cool, I agree. But you shouldn't cast spitballs at other peoples boats when yours has holes in it, right? 

@amir_asr , why not join us in the thread on frequency response to discuss?

@thyname , nice Mapleshade rack, love their cables too, and such a solid company to work with. If you look in the pic in my system you’ll see the Mapleshade platform/isolation system on the right. Have you tried their cables yet?

@prof (quoting Majidimehr)

"As to my system, you can see a brief overview and pictures in this reviewthread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-lyngdorf-roomperfect-eq.6799/

It’s clear that ASR’s founder has some pretty reasonable gear, and posting it as a virtual system here—while that would be cool—isn’t obligatory to demonstrate that.

There are some oddities, discussed at ASR in fact: he’s tardy maintaining/repairing those classic ML amps; he hasn’t subjected them to his very expensive analyser; nor subjected those speakers to his very expensive measurement robot; apart from some shag-pile he eschews room treatment (iirc in all cases, obviously).

Now there are surely reasons: that gear is heavy; they’ve been measured by others; the amps won’t deliver the "graph hygiene" of a Topping; he gets good enough sound with room EQ at LP; and so on. And ultimately those choices and priorities are his, really. Notwithstanding that I would make different choices.

 

@kota1 : yes Mapleshade Samson rack. And a few amp stands

Wow, a lot's been going on since I've been on.  @holmz  Fantastic measurements of the the Kento Carbon speaker which received glowing reviews.  $40K is near my max to spend on speakers.  I've got to hear them.  Thanks!

@fleschler Not everyone cares about time and phase, so if you dislike them, then you are well ahead of the game as you can likely scratch off Dunlavy, Theil, and few others with a similar design ethos.

This thread is like a group therpy session for 4th graders.

When a product shows nothing to back up its claims, I am pretty sure that it is make believe.

 

And don’t forget to bake the cables.

Peolke get a little ornery sometimes when there are no facts that support a belief.  Facts are good!  always better off with them than without.  Wishing something to be true has limited potential. 

@prof Yes that is why they reject Amir and I guess you too. Clearly you have nothing better to do. Yep troll on has to getting chilly on the lake. Bit windy today. 

Have a nice evening, hope you find something to do, listen to or read other than old old threads old chap.

 

@jerryg123 

Figured.

People here are smarter than you think ;-)

 

 

@prof You are such an expert in your opinion denying the plausibility that I hear great differences and can make an informed opinion of my own.

No, precisely the opposite. I recognize my limitations as NOT being an expert.

That’s why I value explanations by actual experts.

My whole approach starts from my (and humans in general) fallibility.

This seems hard to grasp for people who have trouble accepting their own experiences may be fallible.

 

 

When I say there is a very significant difference, THERE IS!!!!!

 

That is the confidence one sees from religious dogmatists. "I experienced it; nobody can tell me otherwise." By valuing your subjective opinion above any other evidence, you have made your belief unfalsifiable - no outside evidence to the contrary can budge you. I personally, along with plenty of others, prefer not to treat audio as if it were like religion.

So to provide a contrast: I really seem to perceive "obvious" differences when I’ve done some tube rolling. I’m fine to proceed on my experience. But I recognize I’m quite fallible and like anyone prone to listening biases. Therefore I would not simply declare "If I say there is an obvious difference THERE IS." I can acknowledge the point made by a skeptic that it could be some type of expectation effect or perceptual bias, rather than the sound changing audibly. I’m willing to be wrong, and it does not threaten my self-worth to admit my perception may be in error.

So, I guess that’s how we see things differently.

 

Blind ABX testing on these tweaks and I bet I couldn’t identify the differences. Change from six Pangea power cables to six Grover Huffman power cables in a high end/high cost system-OBVIOUSLY SUPERIOR!!!!!

 

So...do you mean you have reliably identified these power cables under blind test conditions?

@thyname , your system looks great, is that a Mapleshade Samson rack you are using? I use their Bedrock speaker stands in the mancave and platform in my HT, Thanks

When I say there is a very significant difference, THERE IS!!!!!  

And that’s great. What the professor is saying is if you have nothing to back up what you are hearing, that’s just anecdotal, and you are making dubious unsubstantiated claims. If not simply hallucinating. You should refrain from posting such dubious claims in the Internet. You are risking some poor soul wasting hundreds of dollars of their hard earned money, blood sweat and tears, paying for enrichment of the evil audio manufacturer.

 

So please…. before you post anything, make sure you have proof. Either measurements, or blind tests certified by a third party independent panel. Preferably both. 

@prof like I said charge those batteries in your trolling motor. Slow day in Toronto?

I said again and again I will not set an electronic toe on that shills site. 
 

Go Leafs!
 

 

 

@prof You are such an expert in your opinion denying the plausibility that I hear great differences and can make an informed opinion of my own.  I've heard/tried the green pen, I've heard magic stones and bells and surface treatments.  I could tell that there was a difference but to me, they were insignificant and so minor as to not warrant further study.  When I say there is a very significant difference, THERE IS!!!!!  Just like adding salt and tasting it, unless one has lost that ability.  That's why I have rejected so many tweaks as being INSIGNIFICANT to the enjoyment of music.  Blind ABX testing on these tweaks and I bet I couldn't identify the differences.  Change from six Pangea power cables to six Grover Huffman power cables in a high end/high cost system-OBVIOUSLY SUPERIOR!!!!!   Just like adding salt.  

Just like beating a dead horse here.  I've made mistakes, always with subtle changes, tweaks in particular in my prior home with a lesser quality room and system.  

Well @jerryg123

Let’s sum things up.

You claimed to Amir:

Now what I do know about you is you have never posted your system or listening room.

I then suggested you had been on the very threads in which Amir’s system had been posted.

Your reply, instead of admitting the truth, was to claim my memory was failing.

So let’s see who is telling the truth.

Here is the previous thread on ASR to which I was referring:

 

 

As anyone can see for himself, you are posting throughout that thread! Yes, the one I said I thought you’d posted in.

In fact, in that very thread YOU once again untruthfullly claimed ASR was only about "Kmart" gear, AMIR did post a link to his system info upon request, right here:

 

AMIR wrote:

"As to my system, you can see a brief overview and pictures in this review thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-lyngdorf-roomperfect-eq.6799/

 

 

So not only were you lying by implying my memory was wrong, and lying that you "know" Amir has never posted his system or listening room, even Amir’s system itself shows you were making bogus claims that it’s all about "Kmart" gear on ASR.

I don’t really know what people get out of trolling...I’ve never really understood the urge to troll...but if you are comfortable being continuously caught out fibbing in public...you do you I guess. People can see what’s what. ;-)

@prof not playing. Hope your battery is fully charged in that trolling motor. 

Never posted here and he had been asked by several in this thread.

Now move along old chap. 

@jerryg123 

Ok, so I am wrong that you ever participated in, or read the other recent threads on ASR?  (In which Amir appeared, and in which his system was posted)?

Please be clear on that if I was wrong.

In either case, you were the one who wrote:

Now what I do know about you is you have never posted your system or listening room.

So if you had not participated in or seen the other ASR threads, how can you tell anyone that you KNOW Amir has never posted his system?

Best to pick a story to stick to :-)

 

 

@prof your memory is failing you,  kind a like a guy I know.

So move along I really do not care and will not patronize his site.

My "anecdotes" are based on my hearing abilities.

You continually ignore that you are not superhuman, and that your "hearing abilities" are fallible. You really can imagine hearing differences. You really, really can!

No amount of "expertise" can get around these biases. It’s why scientists themselves - those MOST in a position to be aware of their biases - use methods to counteract the influence of their biases.

 

I’ve dismissed most tweaks I’ve tried or heard/experienced because of the lack of significant differences or no differences heard. All your above named audio tweaks I’ve dismissed after trying them (green pens) or hearing them elsewhere, in and out of a room/system.

Then what about all the audiophiles who claimed the DID hear differences with those tweaks that you have "tested and dismissed?" Are they right that they work, or are you right that they don’t work? What do have to offer beyond a form of he-said/she-said approach to these problems?

 

I have repeatedly stated that everyone has their own listening bias. This does not negate relevant claims of differences heard.

Yes, as you have seen I have argued that here and on ASR. The fact that there is some noise in the system - listening bias - does not mean our perception is entirely unreliable.

HOWEVER, when you want to be REALLY SURE your conclusion is true or well justified, THEN it makes sense to account for the variable of human error in your method! And even more: the more a claim edges in to the "extraordinary" category: that is the more that it would seem at odds with what relevant experts in engineering or the relevant science understand to be unlikely, it makes sense to be MORE cautious about how you are drawing your conclusions.

That’s why the claim someone added more salt to their recipe changes the flavour doesn’t immediately demand rigorous evidence, but if they say they’ve built a perpetual motion maching in their backyard..sorry...a group of guys saying "It’s true, I seen it with my own eyes" will hardly do. It’s going to have to pass much more rigorous lines of evidence. The people who are IGNORANT of the relevant physics and THINK they saw a perpetual motion machine really DON’T have just as much of worth to say about the claim as relevant experts, even if they don’t have a grasp of their own ignorance on the subject.

This is what Amir has to deal with all the time. Most audiophiles are simply not very technically informed, and can’t really evaluate the plausibility of the technical claims made by high end audio companies. So what they have just their "experience listening" which has the problem of perceptual bias. And if they think they hear a difference, well that’s enough to show the claims made for the product are true!

This really is a problem of people who just don’t know what they don’t know. Many audiophiles just aren't in a position to understand when a claim made for a product is bullsh*t or very dubious.   And until some level of intellectual humility arrives, as in "hmm, maybe I shouldn’t be as confident as I am, and maybe someone with expertise does have something to teach me..." then this cycle will never be broken, and the expert will be cast as the dogmatist or ignorant.

And so it goes...

 

 

 

 

 

 

@prof

People who believe in the results of everything from homeopathy, to new age healing crystals, to...name your unscientific belief...give anecdotes just like yours for their beliefs.

Everything from green pens on CDs, little brass bowls placed on walls, stickers and pebbles placed on components, have had such testimony!

Until you grasp the relevance of listener bias and it’s influence on our perception, your continued use of anecdotes to support technically dubious claims will continue to miss the point.

Okay, you 100% ignore my abilities to determine at least in the acoustic music realm, what sounds correct versus incorrect, better versus worse. Amir admited he has no comparable EXPERIENCE in the performing and recording in major concert venues (in Southern California, old and newer venues) as well as examining many recording studios for professional evaluation of their construction for appraisal purposes. I am not an expert although I have friends who are leaders in the remastering industry.  My "anecdotes" are based on my hearing abilities. These are NOT unscientific beliefs despite being unfounded on scientifically tested measured results. I’ve dismissed most tweaks I’ve tried or heard/experienced because of the lack of significant differences or no differences heard.  All your above named audio tweaks I've dismissed after trying them (green pens) or hearing them elsewhere, in and out of a room/system.  

I have repeatedly stated that everyone has their own listening bias. This does not negate relevant claims of differences heard. Audiogon is replete with anecdotes from contributing listening members. It does not mean everyone’s anecdotes are relevant.

I desire measurements as a starting point. I’ve mentioned why and how they can help avoid badly measuring/sounding equipment/cables/tweaks earlier. Without measurements, the next best thing is trial and error.

You admit that the better measuring equipment does not always provide the most enjoyment. I am old enough with sufficient audio experience to determine significant differences which can be explained in anecdotes. You don’t have to believe me. You can try them for yourself if given a 30 to 90 day trial period from many manufacturers.

 

@prof, thanks for posting this.

@amir_asr , can you confirm this is your actual room, system, measurements etc?

Any comments about it you want to share re: the specs/measurements that the manufacturer supplied?

If you want help or just want to discuss improving your FR I think this thread would be appropriate, feel free to join:

 

 

@amir_asr , I bought an audio product recently from Amazon and it had a 30 day return. I decided I would not keep it. I took it to a local store with a QR code which simply took the package, scanned the code, and that was it I got the refund the next day and didn't pay shipping, package it, nothing. 

This policy seems to work well for Amazon and its associated vendors and apparently customers too. 

 

@jerryg123

Now what I do know about you is you have never posted your system or listening room.

 

I seem to remember you posting on the very thread in which Amir’s system, with measurements, was indeed posted.

Here is is again:

 

 

You won’t visit ASR to gain accurate information about the person you are speaking about...yet you will nonetheless tell people about Amir’s credentials?

I’m afraid your posts against Amir seem full of sound and fury, and little else.

@amir_asr You are so full of crap!

Many retailers in this channel offer 60 and 90 day returns. No questions asked. Guess your business doesn't have the financial resources to put their money where their mouth is.

Just a few: Upscale, Music Direct, Audio Advisor, and on and on.

Cant run with the big dogs stay on the porch. 

Think we just have a False Profit in you. 

 

Issues relating to false guarantees have become so common in the United States that the Federal Trade Commission has specifically addressed the issue in the Code of Federal Regulations Handbook (§ 239.1)."

So @amir_asr feel better? Wow that took a lot for you. Did you take a nap? So you are making assumptions based on what you are reading on the internet and you do not know a single thing about me.

You did what you accused me of. Where is the science ?

Now what I do know about you is you have never posted your system or listening room. You have never posted the so called measurements for your room and system. Well not here anyway and I will not go on your site to help you secure donations from your minions.

I also know you are not an EE all you are is some guy with some software (that a member had to teach you how to use) and then you banished him from ASR. Yes that guy was over here saying all kinds of nice stuff about you and your lack of credentials.

So here we are back to that Elixir Salesmen (not the great Heed Integrated). That is you, a wagon peddler and the internet is your wagon and you con people to contribute to you.

When I bought my many systems I consulted professionals that came and measured (I am not anti measurements just anti shills and con men) setup gear and we did demos. We found what SOUNDED right in my home and that there was synergy in all the components across the entire chain, Acoustic treatments, cables, power, sources and amplification. Do you offer that type of service or do you just sell online? Would love to hear of some of your success stories from clients.

See when I am out of my element I do not throw cash at a problem I hire experts and get solutions. I may seek feedback form places like WBF and Agon but that is just part of my process.

I look at your expertise like those guys who claim to have served in the military, you know stolen valor.

You are not an expert, scientist, engineer or a respected reviewer. All my opinion. 

Please have a great evening and go play with your dog.

 

Why is it that people who have least amount of familiarity with audio science the ones that judge others to not have any such knowledge?  If I asked you how many research papers you have read the answer would be close to zero, right? If I asked you if you have any professional experience in audio, the answer would be zero, right?  If I asked you if you have ever had a mentor who knows audio science, the answer would be zero, right?

Why do you do this?  I answer: because audio science doesn't agree with what you have taught yourself from random individuals online, or improperly conducted listening test evaluations.  Show some emotional maturity in this regard.  Most of equipment I test at ASR forum come from members.  Out of the entire set of what I test, I only recommend about 1/3 of it.  The rest just don't perform.  Yet the people who send them to me are still happy to have done so and like the fact that they finally have some reliable data about their gear.  The move on with optimizing their system that way and routinely wind up with more performance at much less cost.

 

@fleschler 

 

Amir is so full of it... I tried six digital cables and they all sounded very different. Not just to me, but to five other listeners, two golden ear friends. My wife who is not an audiophile but has a very keen sense of sound gave me her comments.

People who believe in the results of everything from homeopathy, to new age healing crystals, to...name your unscientific belief...give anecdotes just like yours for their beliefs.

Some people just don't know what they don't know, and refuse to learn...and that's how we get a world suffuse with wild belief systems.

Again, as you can see if you read Amir carefully, while he has a good technical basis for being skeptical of some of the claims being made here, the door is not completely shut on any of your claims, or anyone else's.  It's just that he's looking for better, stronger evidence than yet another audiophile saying "My friends and I heard a difference!"  And quite rightly so!  Everything from green pens on CDs, little brass bowls placed on walls, stickers and pebbles placed on components, have had such testimony!

 

Until you grasp the relevance of listener bias and it's influence on our perception, your continued use of anecdotes to support technically dubious claims will continue to miss the point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

@dustyb13 That’s is the opposite to @prof posted on the rebuttal site. He is arguing with other ASR members that listening isn’t meaningless despite measurement results. He is using/preferring an inferior measuring CJ pre-amp instead of a very superior measuring Benchmark pre-amp.

@millercarbon I have in wall activated carbon filtering paneling which effectively removed excess bass nodes in the room. It was designed for six 12" woofers in my current speakers (or future speakers). Excess and uneven bass response is never a problem in my room Slight corner treble echo/reverb is as well as coherence/focus that a simple cloth in a narrow strip on the front wall cures (pending a more aesthetically pleasing panel or covering). When you walk into my room, it is unlike an anechoic chamber but rather quiet and calm. Once voice/music is heard, it is evenly transmitted and a touch on the live side, like a good performance hall. All of those absorption panels on the side walls and ceiling were designed to dampen the reflectivity of the cherry plywood finish. After reading Amir’s comments on Mike Lavigne’s room, maybe my room does "sound" better.

@kota1 

@amir_asr , you raise an interesting point about risk. As you are a dealer I respect the fact you might not like when a manufacturer or dealer assumes all the risk in a transaction by offering a 30 or 60 day return policy.

Once more, they don't assume all risks.  You have to pay for return shipping and hassle of boxing and shipping it back to them.  Then you sit there waiting for a refund which may or may not come.  And that burn-in period requirement is a sure way to make sure you don't immediately send the thing back.

You are a perfect victim of their marketing if you fall for this scheme.  Here is the wiki for you: 

"The use of money back guarantees has grown significantly over the last few years and has become standard practice in direct marketing across all media. Very often, unreliable businesses use it as a tactic to reel the customer into a false sense of safety....Issues relating to false guarantees have become so common in the United States that the Federal Trade Commission has specifically addressed the issue in the Code of Federal Regulations Handbook (§ 239.1)."

I suggest not being such a gullible consumer.  It is folks like you who let these companies get away with empty and false claims for their products.  Instead of being an advocate of audiophile buyers, you have joined the sellers in promoting junk audio products with zero benefit to fidelity of your system.

Just for you @amir_asr you are as much science as the wagon peddlers in the old west.