Naim and Elac Adante, Wow
There is absolutely NOTHING special about the Adantes. Not for the money, nothing. AudioTroy, I’m sure once you realize they won’t sell for you, you will be desperate to sell the demos. Deny it all you want, or worse, make yourself an absolute fool and tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about — but just remember I said this. If Andrew Jones didn’t design the Adantes no one would even take them seriously. Again, you brought them in, so obviously you’re going to push them and try to get a good word out on them, but if you seriously think deep down that they’re impressive at all and not horribly flawed, I simply can’t take your opinions seriously. Keep in mind I have about two months worth of experience with them (AS and AF) ahead of you. |
Audiotroy
.. thanks for the info.. as for my personal perspective; 1) I listen to mostly progressive rock 2) My current front end and room seem maybe a good match for the Adante based on your comments. 3) My current speakers are M&D Ruby monitors, I like them a lot and my in-room measured response looks similar to the Adante review published response. 4) I live in China.. so would prefer a good value speaker made here. (Thus also considering the R500.. but I need check which works well at around 2 meters listening distance). 5) I am over 60 yo... so some natural treble rise maybe not a problem.. also I have experience working live bands and recording, so understand exactly what you are referring to concerning the dynamics of snare hits, etc. So I will definitely be giving these a serious audition somewhere that has a proper amp attached.. Thanks again! |
Mothberg you will love them you are the perfect canidate for them. We also many years ago had the Rubies even with the omin tweeter module they were a bit dull, the had excellent punch and tight bass. The Elac is the more exciting of the two speakers the Kef's are a bit more polite, they do image very well, big soundstage. I think you will love the Adantes, go give them a listen and see for yourself. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Audiotroy: As always, you generate many words and miss the point. I have tremendous respect for Andrew Jones. He is one of our premier speaker designers and I’m sure that Elacs sound wonderful. As to your desire to put tomic601 and I in the same room to compare Vandy 7s and Alexias, I would be happy to do that as you suggest. It would, as you say, be priceless. I have heard the Vandy 7s many times with the very electronics I use to drive my Sashas and I think they are great speakers as well, although a fairer comparison would be Vandy 7s vs Alexia v2s. Judging from tomic601’s reasonable and well balanced posts, I believe we would discuss the different attributes of each speaker, why we might prefer how one presents music over the other and have a great time as I do (and I’m sure he does) with many audiophile friends with different preferences. Unlike you, I would never conclude that tomic601 is a "fanboy" if he prefers Vandys and I’m sure he would not call me a "fanboy" for preferring Wilsons. Nor would he tell me that I must prefer balsa drivers because they are more innovative and advanced than paper pulp and I would not say that he must prefer Wilson’s advanced cabinetry technology over the new Vandy enclosures. You see, "fanboy" is, to me, a pejorative word best used to describe an eighth grade rival who prefers one comic book or superhero over another. That word has no point in civil adult conversation. But you use it all the time to describe anyone who prefers a brand over one which you carry. Once again, it is not the products you carry --some of which are very good. It is how you promote them here and how you criticize other who disagree with you by usually citing technology, your experience or your trained ear--which every other reputable dealer can do, but does not do here because it is so distasteful and would lead to endless arguments between dealers as to who has the best technology, experience and ear. You also fail to realize that there are many members here have decades of experience in the high end industry, have heard hundreds, if not thousands of speakers, read the trade mags and white papers with respect to technological innovation in speaker design and do not need to be told how you have the best stuff because, as a scientific fact, your brands have the best technology to accurately portray the source. If that were true, we could all just go out and buy Magico and not bother to Quads, Harbeth, Proac, Verity Audio or the like. Your usual comeback is in the following vein:--"I’m just trying to impart valuable information including my golden ears and vast experience to those who may not have considered the brands I carry and suggest that they give my brands a listen" Right. Wouldn’t any dealer frame their sales job that way? I’m so happy that they don’t and we only have to listen to you do it. |
Nice words Contuzzi, I am still pondering your comments " Keep in mind I have about two months worth of experience with them (AS and AF) ahead of you." If you hate the speakers you are not an owner, as an owner would’t purchase two pairs of speakers they don’t like. So you work for or are in the Industry do you want to explain that one? As per your opinions, we do agree on how good the Personas can be, however, your lack of credibility about the importance of cables or electronics in shaping sound is downright hard to believe by someone with experience unless that person works at a store setup with a switchboard or one that sells only decent but not high end electronics. Amplifers absolutely sound different not just tubes to solid state, We have Cambridge Audio clean but a bit bright sound, compare that to a Naim which is warm and full bodied on the same speaker and you will get totally different results. We never said the Adantes are perfect they are not they can sound really impressive with explosive dynaimcs and tight visceral bass providing you use compliementary electronics and cabling. A great audio guy can take a speaker or amp and match it with the appropirate, electronics, cabling and digital to make a system that sounds great a bad one, just hooks up a set of speakers and pronunces them good or bad. It is something called synergy. Good luck Contuzzi. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ PS all you haters, we now have Motherberg, ZZ,Arafiq, and Randysa who finds our posts informatve. In all four cases ZZ no one has purchased anything from us! You guys really need to grow up a bit and view these forums as a place to exchange experiences which we have over 30 years of professional experience. |
Grgr4blu as usual you don’t get it, four other people on this thread found our comments both useful and enlightening. It is becaue we have experience through years and years of testing and experimentation that we can offer perspectives that many people find useful. In our shop we have a huge selection of digital products so we can actually guide a prospective client, so we know the differences between brands. The point I was making about you and Tomic, is the ever over the top pefect piston argument, that people who are Vandy fans, as well as the time and phase alignment is the only way to build a speaker. As a former Wilson owner whose speakers are not phase aligned, we don’t feel that is true as the WP 3/2 and 5 in their day sounded fantastic and we know you love your Sasha WP. As per fanboy being a perjorative, it is. personally I hate all of the fanboys, not the people per se but this attitude, I know of one poster not Tomic, on every thread, there is usually one and only one brand of speaker that he ever really mentions. I don’t know about you but I find there are a lot of great speakers out there including ones we sell and ones we don’t, like Rockport and Vivid which we talk about but don’t sell either. A fanboy is the type of person who believes that the Tekton is the best speaker for all listners, a fanboy only spouts Vandy or Wilson or whatever at every post, they don’t understand many brands because they may have limited experience. If you notice we talk about specific speakers to appeal to specific listeners, tastes and budgets and room decor. Unless it is a post about choices where we usually mention our three reference lines the Kef Blades, the Legacy Aeris and the Paradigms. You will also notice we don’t usually say these are better but you may find them to be better and they rival x or y or may be better at this or that. In the case of the Paradigms vs the Kharma Exquistes a $120k set of speakers we said they were very good just not worth that kind of money, you see we have to purchase our demo products so if we don’t think something is worth the money it is kind of hard to sell. Many people are equilly tired of your incessant blathering and as demonstrated many peole, four in this thread, found our comments to be helpful, beneficial and of guidance does anyone find any value in your comments? Stop trying to voice your views on the forums about our behavior and either bring to the forums your vast experience or just clam up. Stick to the topic which is how does the Adante perform with a Naim and are there othe people who have found a musically pleasing combination with the speakers? And if this was a shill/sales post, then don’t you think we would not point out that the speakers are not perfect and they do have some issues? Yes on the Naim Atom with WIreworld cables and the Adante AS 61 listening to streaming music was totally fantastic and was engaging. Please add something about how the speakers sound based on your experience. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Hey Ozzy I have some great Budweiser, and some stale chips, stop by any time for that wonderful listening session-music matters,..too! I also have some fine Columbian and Curveo gold and some great Donald Fagen records. Peace Thanks for appreciating our posts. Your resident, Elac, CJ, Manley Labs, Aurender, PSB, Dali, Rethem, Naim, Nad, Nuprime, Mytek, Wireworld, JL Labs, Legacy, Paradigm, Anthem, Micromega, ATC, Electrocompaniet, Isotek, Audience, Audio Magic, Kef, Rega, Nottingham, Merril Williams, Lyra, T+A, Unison Research, Synthesis, Parasound, Lumin, Baetis, Innous, Aqua Hifi, Light Harmonic, Shakti, Acoutic Systems, Cary, Solid Tech, dealer/shill! Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Grgr4blu Interesting, I see you are enjoying an audio system that was purchased somewhere from someone, or did you cobble it together in your workshop? That audio system was designed to do what exactly ah yes, PLAY MUSIC! So unless your are a talented musician you are going to need equipment to play that music on, so equipment is required to do the job. So to recap no equipment = NO MUSIC for you to listen to. If you purchased components rather then created them yourself, did you ever visit a shop ever to learn about components, or to just listen to some music, or talk about what’s new, did you then talk to a salesperson whose job it is to know about and sell components, does that salesmen do that job for 40 hours or so a week and is therefore eminently qualified to discuss their knowledge of what those components do, or go to a an audio show which is run by manufacturers who sells products designed to make music? You are so busy pointing the finger of impropriety and "selling" or "shilling" or "trolling" you fail to see the hypocrite for which you are, see above. Your self professed knowledge comes from what? Your years as an audiophile, vs our 30 plus years of doing this day in and day out and finding combinations, tweaks, and evaluating products which we do constantly? So back on topic, what do you think of the Elac Adantes? Do you find them to be excellent imagers, do you think they have an accurate midrange, if not where are they colored, how do you hear that, and if so compared to which other speakers in the price range? How do they compare to the ATC or KEF R300, or any of the other popular monitors, how is the treble detailed? How is the bass? You really need to grow up man there are people four on this thread alone that have recognized that our posts are helpful and have aided them in making decisions. And yes we are getting so rich by buying the latest components to always have the best possible selection for our clients vs those other stores who are selling the same old products and never evaluating whether or not their products are as good as the new Mytek Brooklyn Dac, or Elac or the new Quad speakers? It is such a shame that you are such a close minded individual I could guarantee we could have taught you how to make your system sound way better and probably have saved you a ton of music in the process. As I sit hear and listen to the Elac AS 61 on our new Naim Nova. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
What a thread. I have sat back and read this thing more than a few times. I didn't want to post as I own the Quatro's and have owned the Treo's. Back in 1982, I was at Sound Unlimited and met Richard V for the first time. That was my store when I was stationed there with the US Navy. bought Stax's there and many other things for friends (Bruce still runs a great store folks). I wanted the 2's, but when it was time to purchase in 1990, I walked out of a Vandy deal with Proac's for many reasons. When I went to a new store to get new Proac's, I walked out with Treo's. Upgraded from there once I was able to, but not after auditioning MANY other speakers. I'm blessed to have many shops and audiophiles locally. Dave, I'm sorry, but your bias is sickening. It really is. You have passion and are a nice guy. For months you begged me, as you do others, to come audition the Paradigm 9's and your vaunted Legacy's in YOUR shop, wiht YOUR gear and YOUR rooms, that you told me are set up and sounding so much better than anyone else's. I did just that a few months ago. I like you, so I decided to not post what I heard and what you admitted I heard. I had another board member with me who heard the same things and hear you say the same thing. They were both terrible. You then started to back track and blame the poor sound on a new, unbroken in DAC you had. That said, you had been pushing that DAC as a world class bargain as every piece in your house is (I honestly thought you had a retail shop and not the first floor of an old multi story house). The would have meant that the DAC was burned in already, but obviously not?? I just don't know what to believe anymore. All I know is that I couldn't wait to stop listening as I had a real headache. As for Vandersteen speakers, I can safely say that you have not heard them set up in MY house, nor the houses of anyone I know who owns them. Not the latest models. If you want to talk innovation, go ahead. Innovation is only as good as implementation. Richard is on the Mount Rushmore of speaker designers like Andrew Jones is. The thing is that Richard has refined and refined, redefined and implemented new materials to make world class speakers. Other's strive to sell the amount of speakers as the 2's, but that probably will never happen again. There is a reason they are still going strong and I mean strong after all these years. I'm not here to debate you, just pointing out the facts that the speakers and gear you keep touting as the best and giant killers etc... in YOUR perfectly set up room all sounded terrible on the day I showed up to finally take your challenge. I even wanted to like them all as my friend knows. You are a nice guy who has passion, but your rants are tiresome. I love Vandersteen, but I also like a well set up Maggie and I heard the newest and largest Harbeth signature addition in a crazy cool Eucalyptus Silver this past week and felt it was warm, luscious and highly listenable. It had a ton more detail than I expected. Is it harsh like the Legacy or Paradigm's? Not even close, but as least you can listen for more than 30 minutes without having to get up and away from teh music. Some will chose your speakers and your gear, but after meeting you and taking your challenge, I read your posts and wonder where you are coming from. To me, it just seems like flavor of the month hype that you spew most of the time. Too bad, as you have some very good options, but they are lost as you use the net to sell your products. Be well and please don't take this as a personal attack. As I said, you care and are a nice guy. I really enjoyed meeting you. Maybe you can find another avenue to promote adn market yourself and your gear. |
Cstonner, you think our bias is sickening? I flat out told you when we met that the entire room was taken apart for a photo shoot the day before, things were moved. and turned off, components were changed and I accommodated you and your friend to come in listen without verifying that the system once it was put back sounded as it should. AND I AGREEDED with you that both systems sounded at that point not good and were not representative at all of the sound we were getting particularly with the 9H. And AFTER that was explained to you had the bad taste to post what your impressions were even when I flat out told you that I was not happy with the sound as it was the sound good. It would have been different If I agreed that the systems sounded good which if you had bothered to pay attention to what was said but in your head you were gloating to yourself that you were right. DO YOU KNOW THAT THE EQ FUNCTIONS ON THE PREAMP were turned ON. DO YOU ALSO KNOW THAT I DIDN"T ENGAGE THEM! Do you think that might have affected the sound and that was just one part of what was wrong. You happen to be the sick one, as you are so blinded by the love or your products that you have the bad taste to post what you just did. If you read the posts as above, mentioned several times that the 1C and 2C were great value for the money speakers. Disagreed with you about the more expensive models. Flavor of the month? Paradigm has been making excellent speakers for years, Legacy has been in business for years. and the Aeris haven been on the market for four years, only the Paradigm Pesona series itself is new and of course Elac’s Adante line is new. Ctstooner, would you give me the same privilege to judge your system which we would still be at a disadvantage as you probably would be showing your system off in the best circumstances and I went out of my way to let you come in and listen when I should have said no that the systems weren’t ready. The same kind of thing happens in show reports day one system sounds bad, day three is sounds fantastic because things were changed. I stayed up late that night just reassembling the place, which was my mistake. Ctstooner, lets just part way in thinking we are both biased, you like and believe Vandersteen makes the best most musical speakers out there, We don’t. Did you hear the Legacy Aeris at the New York Audio show? We had people coming up to us saying they blew away $60k speakers. If you really want to be wowed for $70k go listen to a pair of Scaena Line arrays they put most speakers to shame at $100k.. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Lastly Ctstonner, like Tomic's comments about wine and music and Grgr4blu comments about nothing. You are missing the point, this post is about Adantes speakers and finding compatible equipment with them. Are you know going to tell us that the Naim Uniti gear isn't good, when the Nova for example is being raved reviewed all over the internet? Please regale the reading public about what you have thought about these products. I am sure if you had heard the Adantes you wouldn't even give them a decent evaluation, because of course you would you would be thinking I can get a pair of 2Ci for that money and not looking for what each speaker does well and what they don't. The difference between you and I is that we know who a product is good for and don't try fitting everyone into the same camp as well as see these products for what they are and if you also read the above posts we even mentioned the Adantes do have a peak. Ctstooner, keep your comments to about what is being discussed. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
| Post removed |
disclosure ? i worked at 2 Audio retailers in North and Central Ohio starting in 1978 thru 1995, to make it easy to identify my alleged bias I will list as many of the speaker brands we carried: Theil, Audio Analyst, Shahinian, Freid, KEF including all the reference series as well as all the kits and individual drivers, The Speaker Company kits - we had our own microcomputer based FFT and hired a few Phd / Faculty from OSU to help with crossover engineering..., Quad, Soundlab, Beveridge, Acoustat, Wilson, Infinity ( everything but the mighty IRS ), ADS, DCM, Apogee, and yes Vandersteen 7 showrooms on 3 floors when i left.... |
Dave, it's obvious that you can't converse in a thread like this. Easy to start things, but you always feel attacked and you come back and make up things that someone said. I never said your bias is sickening. Your words, but that's fine as you 'yell louder' in a thread and think it helps your case. That's fine. I'm biased to what I like. Please stop making excuses Dave. I drove down there and went out of my way to give you a shot with those Paradigm's since you told me for months in these threads how great your's were compared to others. I'm very glad I went and met you. You're a nice guy and I meant that, but on these threads you come across as a bully to be honest. If anyone says they don't like something you sell, you go nuts and tell us why we are wrong. That's not way to sell Dave. The thing is that you are a dealer and you use AG to sell and nothing more. That's the reality and everyone sees it. I personally don't even care anymore, but most of us are just posting with other guys and gals (many of whom we have become friends with). We all realize that we hear differently adn we also listen to tonally different music much of the time. We share ideas in mostly civil ways as this is our outlet to vent and talk audio and music. I trust my ears and have purchased accordingly. I know what I like and I don't listen to Johnny at Audio Connection or my friends at Take Five or Mike in Sarasota or Alan at Hifi Buys or Joe at Timbre in Houston (awesome new show room btw or the guys in Dallas who are Wilson dealers, but I've bought form them too or Bruce at Stereo Unlimited in SD. I buy from a ton of dealers and have over the years. I don't have a go to guy per say. I will happily send friends to dealers I know if they are close and that includes dealers I've met and not purchased from. Heck Dave, I'll still send guys to you if they have interest in your gear. I like you, however I feel your attacks in the last two posts As for you telling me what and how I think, thanks. I really appreciate that Dave. Very professional and personable ;). It looks like I got under your skin for some reason and that's too bad. I have heard teh whole Elac line and spoken to a few dealer buddies about them along with their new electronics they purchased. Intriguing. Not all my friends like the Vandersteen sound. Many like a boom boom, sizzle, sizzle or a totally mid centric sound or something hot on top or something that only images and throws a huge stage and they don't care about other things. I gladly share my opinions and that's why I listen to as much gear as I'm able to and why I'm thankful many bring stuff to my house or send it my way for evals etc...I'm blessed adn have always felt that way. As for 'Ctstooner, keep your comments to about what is being discussed.'. I think you meant to keep my comments to what is being discussed. I did that Dave. You opened up a can of worms as you lost your temper and as I said, I couldn't just keep reading and not post. Since you often take threads in a different direction while interjecting your other products while naming or two things you may not sell, I'm sure the rest of us get a bit of latitude, don't you think? I'll just wait for your extra long diatribe as I listen to a wonderfully set up system in a room that needs help with it's electrical, vibration control and a bit of resonance control. I'm comfortable with where I'm at as the music still means more than the gear and the kinship from the boards means everything for me on days I can't leave the house. I hope you are well and that the snow storm didn't knock out your power. Pete |
| Post removed |
The other issue is your comments here had nothing to do with Elac you fall into the bad taste behavor of Gr4blu and his incessant complaining of what he perceives is bad form by us. Because we got drawn into a discussion of Vandy and Maggie we started not to dis them but to layout for the client what they do well and their nature. It was only when a Vandy dealer uttered the words "revolutionary" did we start a discussion on what constitutes revolutionary. In our mind Richard has over the years done some good stuff, but lets face facts, he is not a trained engineer. He is a man who came up with some good ideas and launched a company that through hard work and clever manfacturing made a fantastic speaker for the price with particualar trade offs and a sonic signature and yes through the 37 years colloborated with a few others and did come up with some excellent stuff. By the way there are many guys in this industry who fall into the same catagory including Dan D'agistino and Mark Levinson the man. And by the way over the years sold dozens of pairs of the 2Ce and 1C and will still say they are great value for the money speakers. Do you know we had a pair of the older Quattros traded in and we listened to them before we sold them. Also had Maggies and a zillion others come through our doors. I will leave you with the last part as said before, many people call us and state they have learned a lot from reading our posts. Make you discussion on what is being discussed which is Elac and finding matching components. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Ctstooner, sorry don’t feel that way, you may have gone out of your way but it was your buddy who set up the appointment, and it was in a time window not of my choosing and I think I told him it was right after a photo shoot. If the situtation was reversed I would never make a disparaging comments on how a system sounds when the dealer/manufacturer/owner came straight out and said the system is not performing correctly, that is called professional courtsey. If and only if I said yeah this system sounds great and proceeded to then tell you were wrong and say itsounds great then we would be at odds. However, wasn’t the case, I flat out agreed with you that the two big systems you heard did not sound good at all and as mentioned was due to a number of factors, such as taking systems apart, moving equiment, changhing furniture, changing dacs etc. This wasn’t about taste it was about system setup which took a long time to get back again where things are starting to sound right. As per flooging gear on the posts, four guys wrote in and in support of what they have learned, and none of those guys are our regular customers. People have found out about the T+A gear, as well as many other brands we were championing because of our posting, Do you think Tekton would have gotten any traction without these posts? Many people are turned on to new brands all the time via these posts. As per loving a system was really enjoying the Elac Adantes on the Naim Uniti Nova, switched out a set of Legacy Signatures and they were alos sounding fantastic. Maybe I will invite you back to hear the 9H when the Light Harmonic Davinci 2 comes back that is our reference system and only if we listen to the system extensively first which was not the case. That was stupid we made the assumption that these systems would sound good when put back in some semblance of the way they were, that was our mistake. Ctstooner, I also think you are a nice guy, your incessant Vandy love was also noted by a few other people, there are many, many great speakers and depending on who you talk to and what they like you tailor your recommendations to that persom. If you notice on most forum posts we recommend one particular line of speakers if someone is talking about Harbeth we talk about ATC which is one of the other famous British loudspeaker compainie, if you like Harbeth you will most likely like ATC but not a more dynamic and forward sounding speaker like the Elac. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
| Post removed |
No Jhills we ridicule nothing, if you actually read the posts we said on numerous times the 1C and 2Ce are great value for dollar speakers and we have mentioned that the Harbeths have a great midrange. The issue is what you perceive as real? Owned Quad ESL 63 and they were wonderful, super musical loudspeakers, however, once we moved to Wilson WP 3/2 and then 5 the Quads felt like a great snap shot of an altered reality the WP sounded like you were with the band. I used to do a demo at SBS with the WP and played a hellocopter at loud levels just for a few min part of Pink Floyds the wall, and the WP could make you feel like you were there, the punch and dyamic range and imaging was spectacular. Do you think the Quad could do that, or a set of Maggies? There really are two camps people who believe that a system that sounds real is good, which also means that on some recordings the system will not sound good, those who prefer reality, and those who feel that what sounds good and pleasing is right, because it sounds good and is pleasing. We are not calling you wrong for liking what you like it is a preference. I like to hear a cymbol sound like a cymbol. As mentioned before go to a Wedding with a live band, that has horns, can you stand to be near the trumpets, or do brass instruments sound harsh? If your system when played at a loud level has extended frequency response than a similar recording will sound the same, it will be a bit brassy and harsh. Now if your system has a recessed top end you will be able to listen to that same demo but it won’t be fatiguing. The issue with a high resolution tweeter, Diamond, Beryilium, Ribbon comes a huge amount of detail the issue is how to make that type of speaker still be listenable by using just the right combination of electronics, cabling and digital. You can tone down a brigher speaker but nearly impossible to add more brightness and clarity if the system won’t do it. As mentioned before both of these types of system are preferences. One is not more right than another, if live music is your reference you may be more drawn to the high res camp, if you listen to chamber music, soft vocal jazz, and crave smoothness and lack of fatique then the warmer more musical camp is the right direction. This why we sell both brands like ATC soft dome tweeter/paper cone midrange and the Paradigm Persona which use Beryilium drivers. They both are great and both sound different. Hope that helps. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Ok audiotroy I was kind of with you until you said every Andrew Jones design strives for speed and accuracy except the cheapy pioneer line. I would add the debut line to that exception big time. Very colored, boomy, closed in sounding speakers with rolled off treble. The opposite of what you are talking about. |
Golf would love to do that shoout out. We have heard the Golden Ears many times before, and the two speaker share some similar traits: Both have very deep tight bass. Obviously the Tritons go lower and have adjustable bass so that one goes to the Tritons. The Elac's have a dual concentic with a mild horn load which creates a very big soundstage, vs the Diapolito configuration of the Tritons so the Elacs would produce a bigger more focused soundstage. Also the Tritons are more efficient so that one goes to the Tritons. Also the Elac driver happens to have a bit more treble detail vs the Tritons which tend to sound a bit recessed even with the Heil AMT that they use. Cabinet construction and styling okay, the Adante wins this one. This would make an interesting shoot out, both are fantastic high value loudspeakers. Battle royale, I take it you have and love the Tritons. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Clarinetmonster, sorry for that ommision, we were talking about his TAD work and the Adante's are more reminiscent of what he was doing with TAD and the Unifi Line for Elac. The Debut line was built to an inexpensive price point and like the Pioneer line was created to sell to the masses so was voiced diferently. Andrew Jones is a cagey designer he knows what he can build for a price point. As said before we have a client with the Pioneer's that Andrew Jones designed and they are impressive for a cheapie speaker system. Thanks for that. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Grgr4blu, oh I am going to miss your insights into sound reprodution and all you add to the discussion, so very much. If I remember, the post was not about you and in reality it was not about our store, it was about finding a combination that makes the Adantes sound terrific. Considering you know so much about the high end audio market, you were not able to add one thing to the conversation, as usual. Hardly surprising. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
One bright morning in the middle of the night C'mon guys. 😄 |
audiotroy OP746 posts03-08-2018 6:13pmThe other issue is your comments here had nothing to do with Elac you fall into the bad taste behavor of Gr4blu and his incessant complaining of what he perceives is bad form by us. Dave, thanks for the kind words. Very classy. In our mind Richard has over the years done some good stuff, but lets face facts, he is not a trained engineer. He is a man who came up with some good ideas and launched a company that through hard work and clever manfacturing made a fantastic speaker for the price with particualar trade offs and a sonic signature and yes through the 37 years colloborated with a few others and did come up with some excellent stuff. By the way there are many guys in this industry who fall into the same catagory including Dan D'agistino and Mark Levinson the man. Before posting, you may want to get your facts straight. Look at Vandersteen's resume and then share with me how his electronics background in the Air Force and his college work wasn't formal training? When you say collaborated, I wonder if you are talking about designing his speaker's over the years? Actually, I really don't care as your facts aren't really facts so far. Also, Mark hasn't designed a thing other than a marketing and sales plan. John and Tom did all the design work. Irrelevant as I have been discussing only his current line of speakers when saying you haven't heard them. I wasn't always a fan of Vandersteen speakers for many reasons. As for the excuses of you putting not getting your room back in order after your photo shoot and agreeing that nothing sounded good, that's fair. The thing is that I am pretty familiar with both the Legacy and the Paradigm's and they both sounded very similar to what I've heard the many other times I've heard them. I've heard them both in rooms that were dedicated audio rooms with very good room correction. Many folks like the sound of both and that's cool. Never said it wasn't. I just say it's not what I like, but you kept posting after every post of mine for ages that I havent' heard them at your house and that would change my mind. You bring this all on yourself Dave. You will never see that and that's cool. You either have very thin skin as you lash out at anyone who posts anything that goes against your opinion or what you are selling. I didn't mean to get under your skin, but it's obvious that I did. Be well |
Have heard the Elac's in this thread twice in the last few weeks. They are on the brighter side for those who like that type of sound. What they must have is outstanding electronics and GOBS of power. I had both dealers change out the amplification and the only way they woke up was with the larger amps. Tubes are very fast and don't get their due much of the time. The Adante's need to be tamed IMHO. You will need to budget a fair amount of money with this speaker IMHO. |
Ctsooner, no I learned something, that guys like you can’t have a civil discussion and it is nearly impossible to open your eyes into anything that is is different or other ways of looking at things. You think that after I agreeded with you that the two systems we played were not preforming the way they should could you perhaps have had the decency to consider that all was not well for the reasons stated in our previous post. and perhaps have not passed judgement on what you heard because it wasn’t sounding right? The mistake made was trying to accomodate you and your friend without testing the systems first and by having a photo shoot the week before. As per you hearing Lecacy and the Personas, where exactly? Again, the Persona dealer in CT, been to his shop. and he may be nice but if I remember his facility wasn’t setup with really top of the line gear nor cables or anything. With Legacy where did you hear them, they have no dealers in this territory otther then us and the older Legacy models were not in the same ball park as the current series. At the last show many people were amazed at the sound. Richard may have been in the airforce that doesn’t make him a trained engineer, especially with loudpeakers. Do they teach loudspeaker design, and acoustics classes in the Airforce? Don ’t they usualy teach a skill like repair rather then design in the Airforce? The fact that you have to defend him with so much fervor is just one reason why the post spiraled into this mess. The fact that a guy like you can’t see the difference between a Laurie Finchem, or Lawrence Dickie, or an Andrew Jones, proves you don’t really have a history of audio that is based on some of the men who were behind the sceens of the largest and most sucessful audio companies in history such as Kef and B&W, I am sure you are going to tell me that KEF and B&W speakers sound bad and are not pistonic and have metal driver colorations etc. Compare the technical acchievements from these large companies and how many novel driver and cabinet innovations came forth from them. Vandersteen has created a great product that many people adore, but this whole magilla started when a particular dealer used the word revolutionary about his products, which started our points about who and what constitues something that is revolotionary that discussion wasn’t meant to raise up or tear down anyone it was about perspective in an industry where too many people hail some minor thing as "revolutionary." without acknowledging the difference between really coming out with something new or changing some minor detail and then making that claim. The only thing revolutionary that we can see was the DBS battery pack idea which has more to do with cabling then with speakers although it may help the speakers perform better, and an design to help with midrange colorations in the midrange driver design of the 3A. Composite cones have been done before by JM Labs and Thiel before. As per Elac needing a ton of power to sound right, what do you base that on exactly? Where did you hear them and perhaps that company didn’t have a great souding smaller amp like the Naim. We have them sounding very good on a 40 watt Naim integrated which costs $3,000.00 we are playing them in a room 18 by 16. Do you know that with 40 watts in that size room you can probably still get to 90+ db. How loud do you want to listen? Heard the same bull with the ATC also a 85db loudspeaker, sure they will really knock your socks off with a big amplifier, because they can play so loud so cleanly, however, same thing on a good 40 watt per channel amp at a decent volume level they can sound magnificent and play loud enough for most people unless they are trying to play at concert levels. Ctstooner, you are a nice guy and you have your opinions, and we have ours, lets just agree to disagree. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Still loving my Adantes. I'm not a dealer I am just someone who enjoys these speakers and wanted to share how I felt. Yes I am new to this forum but judging on the behavior of most of the people I have been disenchanted and no longer post. This is supposed to be a fun and enjoyable hobby. This forum makes it seem less so. |
hificrazed dont lose faith, you enjoy your music and your great speakers !!!! this thread long ceased to be about your speakers and a particular bit of NAIM kit. this thread is about running down the accomplishments of a great engineer, designer and American businessman because the dealer for your speakers has a very local competitor who sells Richards product. it is that simple i would just skip this thread maybe start your own tgread about the virtues of your system, room and of course your speakers... peace brother and enjoy the music.. btw I have a very nice Jackson Browne album on with an el cheapo bottle of red vino from Portugal - sublime..... |
and again Audiotroy....pretty much anybody can build a composite driver, as I stated before tge balsa core is unique and innovative. IF you knew anything about end grain balsaand and the extreme difficulty of getting it to bond with pre-preg, then you might reconsider your ignorant comments. i ran the most advanced composite shop on the planet...we built simple stuff like B-2 wings and structures, F-22 wings, 787 fuselages.....but hey you keep challenging me on composites......might feel good for you....but in the end, you are wrong...period....Vandersteen has the patents and as previously pointed out trade secrets - you have what ?????? |
ctsooner You speak of my "bad taste behavior". I have seen many of your posts on Audiogon. I have never said anything negative about you, your posts or anyone on Audiogon except Audiotroy and a Goner who either posted at his behest or appeared to be Audiotroy posting under a different name (having posted only a few times on Audiogon and all in defense of Audiotroy). You speak from personal knowledge and your opinion about your experiences and preferences are what Audiogon is all about. Audiotroy is a complete self promoting airbag. Sorry if I offend anyone but the chief offender--Audiotroy. |
bob, I want to make sure you realize that my post was quoting him etc...;). I honestly don't need to answer to you for anything as to where or when I've heard things. As for territories carrying product, you need to open your mind as there are so many dealers and users of products around the world! ;)..I'll leave it at that. I"m glad you know all about teh military and what we teach and how we teach it. I'm not defending anyone, just pointing out facts, thats' all. Tomic has already covered your ignorance in regards to patents and the whole balsa wood/carbon fiber pre-preg deal. Crazed, I'm sorry if I have offended you in any way. It was not my intent to derail your thread and I'm sorry, but I didn't even post until recently and that was well after someone lost their temper and started their rants. As I said, I liked the Adante's. I'm not into the speaker that has the brightest sparkle on top. That's my preference, but that doesn't take away from the fact that there are many speakers I do like that have that. I just know that over time, I wouldn't be as happy with them. To expand on things a bit, your Adante's will sound better and better (IMHO) with better and better electronics and power. That to me is a great thing since you like the sound of them, you can keep them as you upgrade over time, if you like to do that. As I stated, that both times I heard them, then really woke up and sang (to MY ears) with better and more power just like many speakers do. Again, nothing negative about them at all and I'm glad you are loving them as THAT'S the ONLY thing that counts in this whole thread! :). |
Yeah Ctsooner we are back on track. Here is where we agree, yes the Adantes do like "quality" power. You can drive them with a 40 watt amp, the Naim is $3,000.00 not $1,000.00 the biggest issue that we perceive with the Adantes is people using them with sub optimal electronics or not realizing that these speakers throw out prodigious bass and are not your typical stand mount. As per Tomics points, quite frankly not true, if you noticed we said on many, many times on these posts that we like and respect the Vandy 1C and 2Ce loudspeakers. We don't need to rehash what we don't like about Vandys sound compared to the products we sell, we sell our products because we like the sound and value proposition of brands like Elac, Legacy, Paradigm, Dali. We like high resolution speakers we like Ribbons, Beryillium tweeters, AMT drivers in general you find these kinds of drivers bright. We find with careful tunning you can have your cake and eat it too. This was a discussion on what in our minds constitutes true innovation vs evolution in audio. Look at Apple, Apples products are 99.99 percent evolutionary, it is their implimentation which has propelled them to the top. The Ipod was not the first MP3 player, the Iphone was not the first smart phone. In that light we talked about Vandys accomplishments as refining other ideas, such as composite cones, while we did acknowlege his improvment in creating a uniqe midrange driver and DBS, it is not saying that making a composite cone out of balsa isn't a tremendous accomplishment it must be or they wouldn't have a patent on it the real argument, is that driver technology really better than anyone elses proprietary sandwich cone? In our view true revolution is comming up with completely different ways of doing things, completely new ideas Tesla's electric cars are not revolutionary, however, Chevrolets first electric car the EV1 was. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Dave you should have stayed on track as you wanted everyone else to do, but you couldn't help yourself. I'm glad that you know more than someone who is an expert on the subject. You use the term high resolution all the time, but you use it incorrectly. There are plenty of speakers like Vandersteen and others who have the highest of resolution without being overly bright. If a recording is bright, many of the high resolution speakers will sound that way, even if they aren't considered 'bright'. I also have heard many speakers that are bright because their curve is tipped up a few DB on top and not because they are high resolution. I was speaking in the 90's with a British designer who said he always puts a peak in the upper ranges to give the impression of a more 'live' sound and a larger soundstage'. In your own words on other threads, a speaker isn't going to add anything to a signal. Lot's of different gear for all tastes. |
Ctsooner. My bad. I didn’t realize you were quoting Audiotroy. As punishment for my error, I went back and read Audiotroy’s post of March 8. Can you imagine how painful that was for me? I usually don't read but merely skim his posts. They simply go on for too long to actually read. Fortunately, I only had to read that one sentence. Cheers. |
