What a thread. I have sat back and read this thing more than a few times. I didn't want to post as I own the Quatro's and have owned the Treo's. Back in 1982, I was at Sound Unlimited and met Richard V for the first time. That was my store when I was stationed there with the US Navy. bought Stax's there and many other things for friends (Bruce still runs a great store folks). I wanted the 2's, but when it was time to purchase in 1990, I walked out of a Vandy deal with Proac's for many reasons.
When I went to a new store to get new Proac's, I walked out with Treo's. Upgraded from there once I was able to, but not after auditioning MANY other speakers. I'm blessed to have many shops and audiophiles locally.
Dave, I'm sorry, but your bias is sickening. It really is. You have passion and are a nice guy. For months you begged me, as you do others, to come audition the Paradigm 9's and your vaunted Legacy's in YOUR shop, wiht YOUR gear and YOUR rooms, that you told me are set up and sounding so much better than anyone else's. I did just that a few months ago. I like you, so I decided to not post what I heard and what you admitted I heard. I had another board member with me who heard the same things and hear you say the same thing.
They were both terrible. You then started to back track and blame the poor sound on a new, unbroken in DAC you had. That said, you had been pushing that DAC as a world class bargain as every piece in your house is (I honestly thought you had a retail shop and not the first floor of an old multi story house). The would have meant that the DAC was burned in already, but obviously not?? I just don't know what to believe anymore.
All I know is that I couldn't wait to stop listening as I had a real headache.
As for Vandersteen speakers, I can safely say that you have not heard them set up in MY house, nor the houses of anyone I know who owns them. Not the latest models. If you want to talk innovation, go ahead. Innovation is only as good as implementation. Richard is on the Mount Rushmore of speaker designers like Andrew Jones is. The thing is that Richard has refined and refined, redefined and implemented new materials to make world class speakers. Other's strive to sell the amount of speakers as the 2's, but that probably will never happen again. There is a reason they are still going strong and I mean strong after all these years.
I'm not here to debate you, just pointing out the facts that the speakers and gear you keep touting as the best and giant killers etc... in YOUR perfectly set up room all sounded terrible on the day I showed up to finally take your challenge. I even wanted to like them all as my friend knows. You are a nice guy who has passion, but your rants are tiresome.
I love Vandersteen, but I also like a well set up Maggie and I heard the newest and largest Harbeth signature addition in a crazy cool Eucalyptus Silver this past week and felt it was warm, luscious and highly listenable. It had a ton more detail than I expected. Is it harsh like the Legacy or Paradigm's? Not even close, but as least you can listen for more than 30 minutes without having to get up and away from teh music.
Some will chose your speakers and your gear, but after meeting you and taking your challenge, I read your posts and wonder where you are coming from. To me, it just seems like flavor of the month hype that you spew most of the time. Too bad, as you have some very good options, but they are lost as you use the net to sell your products. Be well and please don't take this as a personal attack. As I said, you care and are a nice guy. I really enjoyed meeting you. Maybe you can find another avenue to promote adn market yourself and your gear. |
Dave, it's obvious that you can't converse in a thread like this. Easy to start things, but you always feel attacked and you come back and make up things that someone said.
I never said your bias is sickening. Your words, but that's fine as you 'yell louder' in a thread and think it helps your case. That's fine. I'm biased to what I like.
Please stop making excuses Dave. I drove down there and went out of my way to give you a shot with those Paradigm's since you told me for months in these threads how great your's were compared to others. I'm very glad I went and met you. You're a nice guy and I meant that, but on these threads you come across as a bully to be honest. If anyone says they don't like something you sell, you go nuts and tell us why we are wrong. That's not way to sell Dave.
The thing is that you are a dealer and you use AG to sell and nothing more. That's the reality and everyone sees it. I personally don't even care anymore, but most of us are just posting with other guys and gals (many of whom we have become friends with). We all realize that we hear differently adn we also listen to tonally different music much of the time. We share ideas in mostly civil ways as this is our outlet to vent and talk audio and music.
I trust my ears and have purchased accordingly. I know what I like and I don't listen to Johnny at Audio Connection or my friends at Take Five or Mike in Sarasota or Alan at Hifi Buys or Joe at Timbre in Houston (awesome new show room btw or the guys in Dallas who are Wilson dealers, but I've bought form them too or Bruce at Stereo Unlimited in SD. I buy from a ton of dealers and have over the years. I don't have a go to guy per say. I will happily send friends to dealers I know if they are close and that includes dealers I've met and not purchased from. Heck Dave, I'll still send guys to you if they have interest in your gear. I like you, however I feel your attacks in the last two posts
As for you telling me what and how I think, thanks. I really appreciate that Dave. Very professional and personable ;). It looks like I got under your skin for some reason and that's too bad. I have heard teh whole Elac line and spoken to a few dealer buddies about them along with their new electronics they purchased. Intriguing. Not all my friends like the Vandersteen sound. Many like a boom boom, sizzle, sizzle or a totally mid centric sound or something hot on top or something that only images and throws a huge stage and they don't care about other things. I gladly share my opinions and that's why I listen to as much gear as I'm able to and why I'm thankful many bring stuff to my house or send it my way for evals etc...I'm blessed adn have always felt that way.
As for 'Ctstooner, keep your comments to about what is being discussed.'. I think you meant to keep my comments to what is being discussed. I did that Dave. You opened up a can of worms as you lost your temper and as I said, I couldn't just keep reading and not post. Since you often take threads in a different direction while interjecting your other products while naming or two things you may not sell, I'm sure the rest of us get a bit of latitude, don't you think?
I'll just wait for your extra long diatribe as I listen to a wonderfully set up system in a room that needs help with it's electrical, vibration control and a bit of resonance control. I'm comfortable with where I'm at as the music still means more than the gear and the kinship from the boards means everything for me on days I can't leave the house. I hope you are well and that the snow storm didn't knock out your power. Pete |
audiotroy OP746 posts03-08-2018 6:13pmThe other issue is your comments here had nothing to do with Elac you fall into the bad taste behavor of Gr4blu and his incessant complaining of what he perceives is bad form by us.
Dave, thanks for the kind words. Very classy. In our mind Richard has over the years done some good stuff, but lets face facts, he is not a trained engineer. He is a man who came up with some good ideas and launched a company that through hard work and clever manfacturing made a fantastic speaker for the price with particualar trade offs and a sonic signature and yes through the 37 years colloborated with a few others and did come up with some excellent stuff. By the way there are many guys in this industry who fall into the same catagory including Dan D'agistino and Mark Levinson the man. Before posting, you may want to get your facts straight. Look at Vandersteen's resume and then share with me how his electronics background in the Air Force and his college work wasn't formal training? When you say collaborated, I wonder if you are talking about designing his speaker's over the years? Actually, I really don't care as your facts aren't really facts so far. Also, Mark hasn't designed a thing other than a marketing and sales plan. John and Tom did all the design work. Irrelevant as I have been discussing only his current line of speakers when saying you haven't heard them. I wasn't always a fan of Vandersteen speakers for many reasons. As for the excuses of you putting not getting your room back in order after your photo shoot and agreeing that nothing sounded good, that's fair. The thing is that I am pretty familiar with both the Legacy and the Paradigm's and they both sounded very similar to what I've heard the many other times I've heard them. I've heard them both in rooms that were dedicated audio rooms with very good room correction. Many folks like the sound of both and that's cool. Never said it wasn't. I just say it's not what I like, but you kept posting after every post of mine for ages that I havent' heard them at your house and that would change my mind. You bring this all on yourself Dave. You will never see that and that's cool. You either have very thin skin as you lash out at anyone who posts anything that goes against your opinion or what you are selling. I didn't mean to get under your skin, but it's obvious that I did. Be well |
Have heard the Elac's in this thread twice in the last few weeks. They are on the brighter side for those who like that type of sound. What they must have is outstanding electronics and GOBS of power. I had both dealers change out the amplification and the only way they woke up was with the larger amps. Tubes are very fast and don't get their due much of the time.
The Adante's need to be tamed IMHO. You will need to budget a fair amount of money with this speaker IMHO. |
bob, I want to make sure you realize that my post was quoting him etc...;).
I honestly don't need to answer to you for anything as to where or when I've heard things. As for territories carrying product, you need to open your mind as there are so many dealers and users of products around the world! ;)..I'll leave it at that.
I"m glad you know all about teh military and what we teach and how we teach it. I'm not defending anyone, just pointing out facts, thats' all. Tomic has already covered your ignorance in regards to patents and the whole balsa wood/carbon fiber pre-preg deal.
Crazed, I'm sorry if I have offended you in any way. It was not my intent to derail your thread and I'm sorry, but I didn't even post until recently and that was well after someone lost their temper and started their rants.
As I said, I liked the Adante's. I'm not into the speaker that has the brightest sparkle on top. That's my preference, but that doesn't take away from the fact that there are many speakers I do like that have that. I just know that over time, I wouldn't be as happy with them.
To expand on things a bit, your Adante's will sound better and better (IMHO) with better and better electronics and power. That to me is a great thing since you like the sound of them, you can keep them as you upgrade over time, if you like to do that. As I stated, that both times I heard them, then really woke up and sang (to MY ears) with better and more power just like many speakers do. Again, nothing negative about them at all and I'm glad you are loving them as THAT'S the ONLY thing that counts in this whole thread! :). |
Dave you should have stayed on track as you wanted everyone else to do, but you couldn't help yourself. I'm glad that you know more than someone who is an expert on the subject.
You use the term high resolution all the time, but you use it incorrectly. There are plenty of speakers like Vandersteen and others who have the highest of resolution without being overly bright. If a recording is bright, many of the high resolution speakers will sound that way, even if they aren't considered 'bright'. I also have heard many speakers that are bright because their curve is tipped up a few DB on top and not because they are high resolution. I was speaking in the 90's with a British designer who said he always puts a peak in the upper ranges to give the impression of a more 'live' sound and a larger soundstage'. In your own words on other threads, a speaker isn't going to add anything to a signal.
Lot's of different gear for all tastes.
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Tomic, bob and I would have a blast out there. That's a great idea. As long as you can accommodate my rollator, I'll be fine, lol. Teh walking sticks aren't doing it anymore, ;). Would enjoy your system for sure. |
"but unlike some of the other posters, we do not subscribe to the only one brand is better philosophy"
Dave, you have used this tired argument against me and others constantly and it's just incorrect. Most of us like plenty of speakers.
"We do not believe that there is only one truth in audio so the Wilson guy who loves Wilson or the Vandy guy who loves Vandy may or may not love our Paradigms or Legacys or Kef's "
You are correct, I have heard the first two plenty of times (most of their models and recently) and they are way to bright on top for me and not coherent to MY ear. Doesn't mean that any of us espouse to only ONE truth in audio at all. Again, wrong
"Lets just agree that we all have preferences and even if a system is well setup and voiced a particular way may not be to a particular persons liking. "
Correct. Then why do you keep making such long posts calling out anyone who says they don't like speakers or a system that YOU sell and are telling everyone how great they sound at your place and that they are they best things that are twice their price? This is what so many posters get on you and your using this board as your marketing. Everyone of us who posts here knows and respects others who like things that are different than what we like. You are the only one who seems to not realize that part.
"but don't get suckered in by some of these very negative people and perhaps reach out and talk to us and see what you think."
First off, I don't feel any of the posters who call you out are negative people. Glad that you can make a statement like that, but you also posted in a Wilson thread that you used to work at Andy Singer's place and would laugh at and I think, made fun of folks after they left the store. Can't back track on that as it was obviously what you guys did.
I know that you PM posters on these threads to try and sell to them. I've had a couple of folks ask me what's up with that.
Let me understand correctly, you say you aren't SELLING on this board, but you are asking folks to reach out to you to talk off the board where you have their ear. THAT'S SELLING Dave. No other way around it and please don't even try to twist it (but you won't be able to help yourself we already know that). Then you have the audacity to say that folks are " getting suckered in" if it's a poster that publicly disagrees with you. That's why no one can have a disagreement with you and why you MUST always have the last say in anything.
I'm sure this will get under your skin and you will have a very very long restort that will be highly entertaining for most of us.
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Glad to amuse you Dave. Since I'm not a dealer who makes his living out of posting and selling, I can post about anything I want that I love. :)
As for how many other speakers I have talked about that I love? It doesn't' matter since I'm just a poster on an internet board that was originally set up for we audiophile to have fun adn get away from dealers, hawkers etc... Others just aren't as transparent as you and YOU are the only one I personally know of who PM's posters (that to me is like spamming) because when you post most call you out. (see, I can play your game of posting long and loud and often).
It's not up to me to endorse a damn thing Dave, lol. You use dealer terms and I"m just a poster having fun like 99% of the board. Plenty of others will ALWAYS share what they own or love. Since those posters also have nothing to gain.... Oh, go read my posts Dave and you will see plenty of places where I've talked about other brands as there are a few that I like. Oh, I have even done that in this thread when I was told to stay on track by teh board policeman..YOU, ha. Is this like graffiti when posters call you out while you are marketing yourself? ;)
As for DAC's, go read and stop being so emotional Dave. I LOVED my Overdrive and always have said so. It does some great things. So does my Ayre. The Ayre works much better in my system, not that I need to even justify to YOU of all people, lol. (this really is kind of fun). BTW, if you read the thread, you'll also know that I am getting The Memory Player server/DAC and I STILL love the Ayre for the great value it offers. Wow, I also love Steve Nugent's gear too as well as the Trinity when I heard that a few years ago (only like 4 in the US). I"ve also enjoyed other digital gear too.
I"m biased to gear that I own and love and to other gear I love and can't afford. (I would say that most posters who aren't dealers are biased to what we own and that's why we PURCHASE this gear or are saving up to do that). You are a dealer who has ZERO credibility no matter how many times you MAY mention a couple of other brands so you can say that you talk about other brands you don't sell. Again, we are way smarter than that Dave ;).
As for contacting folks via PM on here who don't ask for it, I know of a few adn I'm just 1 poster, lol. For you to ask 'I wonder how many other dealers do this'....are you for real? None, that anyone has shared with me and I'm in touch with MANY from the boards.
"If you also can't understand hyperbole, no one acutally laughed at anybody at SBS or any other store, you mistake figurative vs literal."
You posted that in one of your emotion rants Dave and it was NOT hyperbole. NO ONE took it that way and you spend a few posts trying to backtrack on that etc... It's OK Dave, it's human nature to make fun of people who don't agree with you since you have to be the expert as all your posts show. You have. a comeback to everything and you MUST get the last word as this thread alone proves, so again, you are not sharing the truth Dave and you know deep down what you did at Singer. This is a very small community and there are many who have worked with you at Andy's and remember you well.
"And also as mentioned before, you suffer from the same behavior as Grgr4blu, the discusion post is about Elac Adantes.
Do you have an opinion about them? What was the combination that you or your friends/dealers found that works well with them?"
So two good posters SUFFER from some behavior? Other than the 4 customers of yours who you ask to post on your behalf, others are just amused by all of this as am I right now.
Dave, it's obvious that you don't 'think I've heard the Elac's, but again you are dead wrong. I"ve spoken to many about my thoughts on them and that includes over 5 dealers who have sold or do now sell them. I've also shared my listening experience's with them as well as with other posters and audio friends who have no time for threads like yours. Go back and read my thoughts on them if you care that much. If you think you are calling me out somehow, again you fail, sorry :(...
"I find it super interesting that several people here have more of a personal vendetta about things that have been said about certain brands of other speakers rather than staying on topic, which is not about us it is about a particular set of speakers and finding matching electronics.
Dave, I find it super interesting that you hawk your home store and use the board for your marketing. Are you saying that I have a personal vendetta or are you talking about others? Staying on topic goes for everyone Mr Board Police. More threads than not meander Dave. Go read. The longer the thread lasts, the more it meanders. That is because we talk about systems and not one component and when someone brings in something that your marketing posts don't want, then you try and tell folks to 'stay on topic'. You always make everything about YOU Dave.
You can't keep on topic Dave. You have to get the last word in as you wear everyone down. When posters call you out for your using AG to market yourself, then you go on your rants. I guess if you post long enough posts and more often than others, you win. Not sure what the winning really is as if folks really care bout spending their hard earned money, they will go listen to folks who come off as professional and don't get into these fun tit for tat posts, lol. |
Dave, I was responding and not ranting. There is a difference, lol.
As I posted, but you didn't understand, threads often times get off topic and you certainly have that in you as you always have to defend yourself.
As for places I've heard them, I don't answer to you. I never ran them down either, so I"m not sure of your problem.
I rebutted, the same way you do in every single thread Dave.
Dave, everyone has biases. I'm not a dealer who's selling on the boards for free. Again, you fail to understand this basic concept.
Are you calling misinformation what posters are posting about their thoughts about products they own or have auditioned? Staggering?
I don't follow you Dave and I honestly don't care about who you mention or why you mention them.
You are helping yourself Dave. If you can't see that you just aren't being honest with yourself. |
Great commercial Dave. Glad you could get all those names in lol. It’s important that a dealer brings in gear that sells. I would too as we all like different things. Buzz is proven to sell. You put a smile on my face.
I already stated that they are tuned bright and need very good electronics that have a lot of power to wake them up Parasound and Bryson work fine.
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"Cr if you have specific questions PM us.
We currently have the Kef Ls 50, Kef Ref 1, Elac Adates, ATC Scm 11, Scm 19.
Paradigm Persona B on display."
Dave, please share how this is NOT a commercial? Just wondering how that works, lol...HA
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mmey, excellent. Thanks for sharing. That's probably why I heard that treble peak and why the dealers I heard them at all wanted to use a warm group of electronics.
crn, I can appreciate your situation as I am housebound much of the time also with MS. First point is that Audiogon isn't supposed to be used by businesses for marketing and sales. That's why they have the paid forum. They have been very specific about that and I don't think it's changed.
As for buying coast to coast, these companies usually have a very protective territory. That protects the dealers. It's just a good business practice. I personally know many dealers on your coast who would probably love to earn your business too. Many have a great return policy also and depending on where you live, they may even bring over a system for a day or two and help you listen in your own home. I have had two dealers close to me bring over equipment when they know I'm serious.
For those who like class D amps (not the biggest fan), that 300X2 watt Peachtree integrated with built in DAC is nice with the Adante line also. For the price though there are so many good options as it's a tough market to play in. You just need to figure out what compromises you are willing to make. All speakers have them regardless of the cost.
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I"ve heard them with the Parasound separates. Since you like the Elac sound, the Parasound will be fine with them. My new personal favorite electronics for reasonable cost is Belles. I"ve now heard them at two separate dealers and both are showing them with speakers over 15k as they are so good. They have a new set of mono blocks coming out soon too. Here is a link to their products: don't discount them on cost as they are not expensive.
If open minded, you may want to put them in your search. I like them better than the Naim, Mac, Yamaha and AA electronics and I've heard all of them recently. JMHO and not bashing anyone else's gear, just saying the Belles is a true find for high end audio. |
