Tomic comparing a Vandersteen to an Adante is like compairing an venerable old sports car to a brand new one.
You and I prefer very different things, having owned Maggies they are wonderful but highly flawed designs which is not the fault of Maggie it is a fault of all planers.
If your back wave is 180 degrees out of phase that is called diapole cancellation, and you have nothing to push against, as equil and opposite reactions cancel out, meaning your wave launch is not very good.
When you play a drum on a Maggie you don’t get the twack of a live drum, you also don’t get a very good image because the large flat plane causes diffraction.
Maggies have good detail and a lovely tonal balance, good imagers with great dynamics and extended bass they are not. They are also very room dominant.
Vandy 2Ce is a great speaker with a laid back treble, a large and not well focused image and prodigous bass which tends to be warm and not particularly tight. The reason many people swear by Vandys is they are very musical, and are easy to extract pleasing sound with.
The Adantes are totally different sounding, they are alive sounding they remind me of a good set of the Wilson Watt Puppy 7 or 8 sound for a fraction of the price.
The reason people are freaking out about the Adante particularly the AF 61 floor standers is that what they do they sound like much of the $20k to $30k reference camp in what they do well, but lack the last vestige of refinement of the better speakers.
What they mimic: huge soundstage, very tranparent, very dynamic very tight well controlled bass. The treble is a bit forward so careful matching is required.
If they had an even better damped cabinet, with higher end components most likely they would sound exactly the same as many really expensive reference speakers, most likely these were the compromises that were required to keep the price down.
I am sure in the next year or so as people learn how to setup the Adantes with matching gear, ie tubes or warm sounding solid state gear, and the positive reviews start piling up, like with the Debut and Unifi lines, and the Adante line starts to really sell, guess what will be next?
I am sure in about 2 years time Adante Elite, same drivers better damped cabinet, better wiring and crossover for $5k monitors and $10k floorstanders.
The killer combo is going to be the Naim Nova which is way better then the Atom with the AF 61 which will make a fantastic system with just one piece of electronics, totally system $12k plus cabling.
So are the Adantes game changers it depends on what you value, they are not perfect, the treble is still a bit forward, however, with the right match they can sound quite amazing.
In terms of imaging, speed, definition bass tightness and punch they are quite amazing, if you value the sound of live jazz or rock and have the patientce to work with components and cabling to voice the treble they will remind you of very expensive speakers.
If you value musicality and elevated warmth in the midrange, value a more liad back tonal balance don’t care for dynamics you will hate the Adantes.
I started with Quad ESL 63 with dual Entec subs playing Joni Mitchell was fantastic on them, moved into Wilson WP 3/2 and then 5 and would never go back to Quads.
Quads didn’t sound like live music, both for myself and Troy we both went down similar paths to eventually discover that what sounds real to us is what we want to pursue.
Ask yourself as you listen to live music which is bright and dynamic as hell, which sounds more real and which speakers mimic the live experience?
So are the Adantes a game changer that depends on your perspective and what you value, I will say that the $5k floorstanders will be very disruptive compared to many very expensive speakers and it will raise the bar on what you can expect out of this price range.
Hope that helps.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Tomic just as expected from a Vandy Fanboy.
Please explain to me in what way did a Vandy create anything new or revolutionary? Lets see time alignment, first order slopes not invented here. Revolutionary drivers what composite cones, again not invented here.
You mistake creative packaging and pleasing voicing for true innovation.
The Vandy 2Ce sounds like it was invented in the 1995 and yes alloy cones and poly cone midrange drivers are the epitome of modern transducer technology.
As per Maggie again please explain how the company has managed to eliminate the physical limitations of a 180 degree out of phase back wave and a large baffle which defracts the wave?
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Cedargrover, the most popular Vandy 1c and 2Ce are still old designs with hardly state of the art drivers, an alloy tweeter and a polycone midrange. They would hardly be called transparent speakers, they fall into the "musical" camp, so do Harbeth. We don’t sell nor do we want to sell either brand. If you read any of our posts you would see that we respect Vandersteen to our ears, and by the way to many others they are quite colored sounding which makes Vandy speakers great if you like that type of sound. Why don’t you listen to a pair of $14k Quattro’s and then come to our shop and we can show you a set of Legacy’s Signatures for $7k, with a similar sound. ie warm and big sounding. Yet the Legacy’s are 95db efficient with bass down to 22hz and the Legacy will play louder to boot at half the price. We can also show you a set of Legacy Focus Se with a Wavelet total package about $16k just add an amp as you get a preamp/dac/room correction processor. This combo challenges a set of 5C. If you read almost every review of even the 5C or the Quattros most people who love them fall into the same camp they are the "musical" uber alles camp, they are not wining over the peole who prefer a less colored sound. Never have I heard a reivewer with JM Labs or Rockports or Magicos trading them in for Vandy. Vandy’s biggest claim to fame the carbon balsa cone is hardly a new idea as JM Labs was making composite cones for years. Please enjoy what you like, please don’t tell me that Vandersteen builds speakers in the class of TAD or Magico or Rockport, YG or Kef. Other than the 7 which is a good speaker not worth $70k but a good well designed speaker I would never consider owning any of the other models. Go back to drinking your coolaid, Richard has no formal training as a loudspeaker designer, the video interview was hysterical, he blew out his midrange and alligator clipped a midrange driver to the top of the cabinet and found it sounded better. Their one patent for the balsa cone included Mike Latvis as co inventor so what exactly did Richard invent? Jack Oclee Brown, is a trained engineer. So is Lawrence Dickie look at this list of patents Our Patents VIVID AUDIO and the VIVID AUDIO logo device are registered trademarks.
Patents pending on domed driver D26
Patents pending on D50
Patents pending on C125 bass-mid driver
Patents pending on C175 bass-mid driver
Patents pending on C225 bass-mid driver
Patents pending on compliantly mounted reaction cancelling drivers
Patents pending on reaction cancelling ports
Cabinet shape and construction techniques are registered designs As per Andrew Jones technical experience: https://www.forbes.com/sites/geoffreymorrison/2014/03/15/12-questions-for-andrew-jones-director-of-s...
True innovation is not making a new way to build a composite diaphram, but really coming out with really new ideas. And yes Cedargrover we have heard all the newest Vandy model at shows and at other dealers as well as some of Johnneys clients homes. Another bone of contention is your idea that Musicians who play live music are a good judge, many, many, musicians have tremendous hearing damage.
This is not a personal attack on your or what you believe or perceive.
All products have a house sound, every Andrew Jones speaker strives for speed, and accuracy all except for the cheapie Pioneer line. If you value these things you will love speakers that fit in this model. if you are in the romantic, warm or musical camp you will love Harbeth, Devore, Vandy, and a ton or other speakers that fit this type of sound.
Happy Listening!
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ
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Johny we have 0 Vandy envy.
The 1c and 2Ce are great value loudspeakers that have a particular set of sonic attributes.
You have your fanboys we are allways pursuing the new and the truly innovatve brands.
I wonder if you do a patent search between Richard Vandersteen, Jack Oclee Brown, Laurece Dickie, Andrew Jones who actually has more patents.
Composite cones came out of JM labs long before Ricards balsa composite in 2007.
I will take a set of Adates over 2Ce any day. You can tone down a forward speaker much harder to add detail when your tweeter cant reproduce it.,
Neither one of these products is perfect it depends on what you subscribe to, our belief is what sounds real is good, not what sounds good is the governing idea.
Go sit in front of a Wedding band with a horn section does it sound melodic or aggressive?
Our pursuit is the absolute sound, play a live drum record on both speakers and se see which set sounds the most real?
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Repuluso, who is stepping on whom?
The point of our original post was to point out how and why someone who is in one camp will not be easily swayed to moving into a different camp of sound.
It is interesting how certain posters make ridiculous claims on innovation and revolutionary designs without backing anything up and it seems you don’t like our scientfic analysis of things.
The majority of the audio industry is simply repackaging or voicing.
There are very few real audio geniuses out there: in electronics:
Nelson Pass, David Hafler, David Berninig, John Curl, are true innovators, with patents and innovations to their names to name a few.
Dan Dagastino, Mark Levinson the man, Hans Ole Vitus, Harve Dartzeel and many others, never innovated anything, all their products are excellent impliementions of circuits they didn’t design with careful parts selection and voicing. Never said these products aren’t magnificent.
In terms of loudspeaker designers the true geniues are gentleman like
Peter Walker of Quad, Quad ELS 57 and 63
The founder of Kef,Raymond Cooke, too many innovations to list
Bob Carver, subwoofer design
Graham Bank Celesion Aerolam Cabinet SL 600, 700
John Bau Spica Crossover design,
John Dalquist, DQ 10, open baffle designs
Jack Oclee Brown Kef Tangerine wave guide
Laurence Dickie, B&W, Vivid,Matrix Design, Tappered tube loading
Just to name a few
Many talented designers made great speakers due to experimentation, and implementation which is 80% of the industry.
We never said x y or z is good or bad but pointed out that each design has flaws, including the Adantes, they are hardly perfect. We also pointed out that many of the products we like offer a lot of value and challenge other more expensive ones it is up to the listener to determine what they want to purchase.
If you notice many of these fanboys all make the claims that brand x is better than brand y or is the only product that is good, We point out the nature of these products.
If you look at the frequency response curves on many of these products you can see how they will possibly sound, in the case of the Vandy the measurements show the speakers are generally recessed in the midrange and slightly rolled off in treble, hence they sound the way they measure.
In the Hifi New review of the Adantes they show a spike at 10k guess what you can hear that as being a tad forward in the treble hence our comments that you need a warmer sounding solid state or tube amp.
Beryillium and Diamond drivers can be bright never said they aren’t, many paper cones and soft domes sound a bit recessed.
Recluso we know a lot about sound reproduction and we call em like we hear them.
Again for the simple summary Vandy great value for dollar 2CE and 1C sound musical wtih their own specfic set of sonics qualities good and bad,
Elac Adantes very interesting design which has some amazing qualities but requires carefull matching of it can be peaky in the treble.
Planers don’t kick and very few guys hailed as audio geniuses actually are when compaired to the real innovators.
And if we rub you the wrong way and don’t want to work with us that is fine, we probably couldn’t teach you anything.
By the way big news flash, put a set of Isoacoustics Gia under the Adantes and it helps drain away that 10k resonance
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Cedar grover you are welcome to make an appontment and see who is right.
Maybe you will perfer our coolaid which is usually Scotch single malt or fine sipping Tequila.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Sorry Tomic,
Just don’t see it that way and quite frankly there is no hate here at all. Vandersteen builds speakers that many people love but not all people find them perfect or to be to their liking. Sorry to come off as a hater, we don’t use the word "revoloutionary" lightly. Most of the audio industry is evolutionary, it pisses me off to no end when people imply that only "our product employs a genius designer" when there are many, many engineers that have really blazed some new paths.
We sell many different lines of loudspeakers and endorse them all equilly. In our minds and in our store there is no one best loudspeaker, every loudspeaker design is flawed and produces a sound that listener x will like or not like.
We sell Kef Blades, Paradigm Personas and the Legacy Aeris these are three highly rated speaker systems. We also sell ATC and Rethem and now Elac and many others. We don’t view any audio product as untouchable if we can find a better dac or amp or speaker system we happily move out the old and work with the new.
In Vandersteen’s long history his firm has come up with some excellent drivers and technologies, but how many of these are really revolutionary? An open back midrange driver is one way of making a better sounding midrange there are other ways such as the tappered tube design of Lawrence Dickie.
Vandys balsa wood cones may be fantastic but they are evoloutionary designs. Focal came up with the "sandwich" cone as well as a few others, and they did it first. Is the Balsa wood cone better than a Focal sadwich cone of fiberglass sheeting and foam? I don’t know but both of these companies offer some high tech drivers which claim to be perfect pistons, by the way almost every major manufacturer claims their drivers to be pefect pistons.
The Devialet Phantom is almost a revolutionary product, you may not like it but it is almost a game changer except that Bob Carver did it first, in terms of his original compact subwoofers with long throw drivers and 3,000 watts of digital power, the concept of the ADH amplifier now that is novel.
Hope that clarify our arguements and we are totally okay with your love of what you own. We have different opinions on what sounds good and there are many audiophiles out there that love or loathe a particular product.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Avanti,
Heard the 40.1 at the New York Audio show, and the 30.1 at Capital in both cases the speakers didn't have that incredible treble clarity that we hear in many of the more modern designs. The Harbeths have a great midrange and very listenble. Both cases neither speaker system made us go wow.
Harbeth is one of those brands that a lot of people swear by, and if you enjoy yours that is fantastic.
The entire concept of cabinets which ring is very controversial, yes it is musical but do you want a transducer to color the sound or do you want to hear what is actually there?
This is the arguement between the "musical" camp and the "high resolution" camp.
Owned Quad 63 for years yes you could listen to them for hours and hours but compared to the WP 3/2 and the 5 we moved to they didn't sound like live music the way the Wilsons did.
Our philsophy is to produce the sound of real music warts and all. So in the case of a speaker like the Adantes which are very visceral loudspeakers with a bit of a spike at 10k means you have to find electronics which compliment them and whose properties are the inverse of what the speakers faults are that produces a good match.
Adantes require a warmer amp with a polite top end, which is the typical sound of Naim and certain tube amplifiers and of course other solid state brands as well.
We prefer the more neural sound of ATC over the Harbeths when it comes to classic British monitors, haven't heard the new Spendors so we can't comment on those. Also the ATC are priced lower for a comparable speaker, howerver, the Harbeths are stunning loudspeakers while the ATC are plain janes.
Again it all comes down to what you value.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Sorry Tomic,
Hate to disagree, but your arguements don’t hold water, an "aerodynamic" midrange driver will eliminate reflections off of the parallel surfaces behind the driver’s surface.
A tapered tube is designed to funnel the back wave energy away from the cone in the first place, by redirecting the rear wave into a transmission line loaded tube with different densities of stuffing material, this result would therfore would be much more effective then by just removing some reflective surface material behind the driver, without a mechanisim to redirect and disipate the back wave, you are not really accomplishing all that much however, it would still be an improvement over a driver that is not built to control the rear wave in some manner.
As per bonding a carbon skin to balsa that is why Richard got the patent, howerver, JM Labs and Thiel were bonding Fiberglass skins or metal diaphrams to light weight damped foam cores for years so again where really is the innovation in that? Is Balsa and Carbon fiber better than a Fiberlgass sheet over foam or is that marketing hype? Can you prove that claim?
Unless you actually measure the different bonded drivers ie a Focal vs a Vandy driver you really don’t know one is which is better in terms of the drivers response and less risidual coloration.
What started this is someone claiming "revolutionary" we are refuting that by saying that there are other engineers who created composite core/cone diaphrams earlier. Which one is better is open to conjucture.
Considering that Vandersteen is the only one to use this cone vs Focal who uses their own, the world won’t really know.
Tomic you could also conjucture if you built a diaphram that was inherently light and stiff and self damped you wouldn’t need to try to bond materials together, wouldn’t it be great if that diaphram woud exisit.
I guess you might want to look at Magico or YG or Rockport’s diaphrams or Kef or Paradigm or Vivid.
I guess a company that could spend $4 million dollars developing all their own drivers wouldn’t have access to any and every state of the art measuring device know to man both Kef and Paradigm as well as B&W have state of the art research labs do you honestly think that their cones aren’t perfectly pistonic?
Please keep drinking the coolaid. The 7s are very nice speakers if you love yours that is great, personally if I was going to spend $70k on a set of speakers I would buy a set of Vivid G1 any day of the week, but I guess Lawrence Dickie ins’t a loudspeaker genius as well.
By the way we are not Vivid dealers, so we got no skin in that game.
Good night to you, and go listen to a set of G1 and lets talk.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Fsonic you didnt read any of our posts did you? We stated catigorically the Adates are not perfect and will appeal to some people who value different sonic attributes like a very live sound vs a more toned down more colored laid back perspective. What we said was the speakers were delibrately made to allow for a more expensive line to follow as they come close to very expensive speakers and lack the last vestige of refinement that the more expensive products provide. As per Legacy being a standard bearer we never said that what we have said time and time again is how remarkably good the line is and how they compare with many much more expensive speakers. As per reviews on Legacy in the magazines http://legacyaudio.com/backstage
/blog/legacy-awarded-3-editors-choice-awards-in-2018/Fsonic how do you like them apples? Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Fsonic if you also bother to read our posts you would see that we talk passionately about our products and make assements on products that we respect and like that we dont sell.
Have you ever seen in one of these posts by a dealer mentioning competive products that they recomend that they dont sell? We love Rockport speakers we are not a dealer for them.
As per shilling some brands have tons of fanboys that do the shilling for them
I see very few guys like you complaining about how vocal the Tekton guys are.
The second someone dares point out the sonic attributes both good and bad about certain brands certan posters freak out.
Tomic is a Vandy fanboy and loves his speakers that is noble.
We never believe that our products are perfect and for everyone.
As per Vandy the 1c and 2Ce are fantastic value for money speakers with a sound that appeals to some listeners but not to eveyone.
We sell many brands of excellent speakers for that very reason.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor
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Tomic we are noble enough to acknowlege true innovation.
Your definition of innovation and ours differ greatly. Making a cone with a balsa wood core vs a foam core doesn’t speak to us as real innovation, that is called a pivot.
MBL Radialstratters, the original OHM F, the Quad ESL 63 and 57, the Alison 1, the B&W Matrix, the B&W Natulus, the KEF 104, are revolutionary designs even the Wilson Watt would fit this mold, while the latter Magico Mini would not.
Even Lawrence Dickies new company Vivid who at shown above has a large amount of patented technologies, these new drivers are evolutionary designs.
We are not immaturely deriding anything, are you not grown up enough to have a civil disscusion on the nature of what constitutes revolution vs evolution?
We don’t think you are running down any of our choice of designers.
It is always refreshing to see what a polarizing thing audio is and how passionate people are about what they purchase.
The interesting thing between you and us, it that we are not aligned to any one designer or company, if we find a better product we move out of one company and into another.
What is really interesting is the amount of Vandy, Wilson, Tekton fans and how they doggidily hold on to their viewpoints and whoa be it to you who dares to get them to question their beliefs.
Good evening Tomic.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Repeluso, guess what takes one to know one.
I unlike you would never jump to conclusions or pretend to gain insight just from what is posted on a forum when the forums are populated by many people with marginal experience and tin ears.
We are always in the process of testing new speakers, Avanti we are getting in a pair of Habeth Compact 7ES tonight, I will test them here and who knows maybe we will also love them. Last pair we had in was $4k don't remember the model and they were good, just didn't love em enough to want to sell them.
Many of those people don't know audio, system setup, design nor do they understand technolgy.
Good luck to you, as mentioned before close minded people who sit behind there keyboards and feel slighted do not have minds open enough to know the truth about anything.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Repeluso, class in Audio? You must be joking.
You are turned off by your perceived slight when late at night I mispelled your name? If you read many of our posts there are misspellings a plenty, this keyboard lags, and we write late at night many times and there is no spell check on Audiogon. You must be one of those conspiracy nuts as well. If it makes you feel better, we are sorry for mistyping your name, as an adult I really don’t get blustered by someone misspelling my name.
As per being an A hole who is calling whom what and what do you base this on? See above.
I guess you also don’t like our discussions and disagreement with a gentleman that perceives something different then we do, this is called having a discourse.
The industry is rife with corupt writters, double dealing distributors, and manufactuers that convieniently extended loan products to reviewers forever in order to curry favor. If you have been in the industry as long as we have you would start to figure it out.
Mr. Rutan has his fans and his detractors, so do we.
We are vocal about our products so is Mr. Rutan.
The difference is we sometimes start discussions, while he adds to ongoing ones.
You judge a book by what little you know of it, you have never been in our store you have never had an actual in person or over the phone conversation with us.
Instead of agreeing or disagreeing with the points made on both sides you are upset about your name being mispelled, why don’t you grow up and talk about the subject which is loudspeakers.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Repluso, why don’t you just stop.
There are many people who actually learn something from our posts.
The fanboy posts of many people don’t tell people anything that they don’t allready know.
For everyone like you who complains, there are many people who sit back silently and read these posts and are enlightened by them.
The fact that you think we are shilling this product is amusing, when hificrazed come out of nowhere and posted 17 times about the speakers.
With the Adantes we talked at length about the speakers flaws and that they require careful matching and people still may not like them and have a particular kind of sound, and we get nothing but abuse for telling the perceived flaws,as well as what the speakers do right.
If you also notice in any of our posts we back up our statements, we almost never claim revolutionary anything. 99.9% of audio is based on slight changes to what has come before, there are exceptions Nelson Pass, David Berning, T+A’s HV series, and a few other electonics manufacturers have really used some new thinking.
When we talk about Paradigm Personas in the shop we do high light the advantages of Beryilium drivers but never do we say that these drivers are revolutionary when Focal and others made Beryilium drivers before even though Paradigms drivers have a lot of unique new technolgies building a speaker with a phase aligning lens or Beryillium drivers of even long throw suspensions isn’t new thinking it is a new set of packaging a lot of different technolgies into a new driver.
When we talk about Legacy we don’t call them revolutionary either, Legacy makes an outstanding loudspeaker with some fantastic drivers that sound a particular way and are priced very reasonably.
People like you look for what they perceive is wrong in the world, your viewpoint is therefore narrow, the same way the Fsonic made a ludicrous statement about Legacy’s speakers not being reviewed and lo and behold they have three Editors choice awards in the Absolute Sound as well as rave reviews from many other magazines.
What started all of this is our opinion that Maggies and Vandy’s have particular attributes if you notice we never said these speakers are bad and the ones we sell are better, we decribed what they both accurately sound like, and we take tradeins all the time and we have had traded in Vandy as well as Maggies.
The point was to know your customer, if you like live music, rock and jazz and like a visceral presentation and are willing to work with the Elacs they are going to be fantastic, if you prefer a more melodic sound, richer tone, want a big soundstage and warm full bodied bass you will love the Vandy, if you like a big sound, with clean treble detail, and are not a bass freak, don’t crank it up and play loud and have the space you will like Maggies.
Now please tell the readers your experience with all three?
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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No Mofo traded in and that is what we mean by testing them.
So far in hearing them at two different shows and we had one pair of $4k Harbeths brought here a few years ago never fell in love with the Harbeth sound.
Reason mentioning that is too show you we actually do test and listen to these products if you would like pictures be more than happy to post them.
Mofojo if it isn't obvious we don't take the path that is easily traveled, or we would be selling products like Mcintosh or B&W which are find products, we prefer T+A to Mcintosh, and Kef to B&W.
We are however always looking at new products, we are looking at bringing in two high end loudspeaker lines and another dac in this year.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
PS you are an amusing fellow, personally I think this is sad that a post has to come down to a vitrolic attack between or about members.
We all have opinions, and as stated before we test and move in and out of lines if we find better products.
Most dealers sit by and sell the same product lines year after year never venturing out of there comfort zone to see if someone has produced a better product that they can offer to their clients becaue it is better.
Many years ago Dave Wilson entered the market and there were a few brave dealers that signed on, same with any of these now established brands, once many were brand new and not established.
Do you think that Dave Wilson's original Watt was ridiculed at the time for being a two way with limited bass that was crazy expensive at the time?
The fact that people care so much about the inanimate objects they own and they personally feel insulted if you dare question anything about their beloved x y or z is crazy.
These are all tools who cares if brand x y or z may be better, I know we don't.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
ZZ and Arafig, Thank you both.
Here is the real point, I highly doubt either Tomic or Gr4blu, has actually heard the Adantes, first they just came out, and second very few dealers have signed up to carry the line.
We were not interested in the inexpensive stuff because it was too easy for a prospective client to just order them on Amazon and as a brick and mortar we do not like to compete with Amazon.
We became interested after the buzz at CES where the Adante/Audio Alchemy setup at $12k was amazing many people who heard them.
The first thing that Tomic says when someone is asking about the Adantes he suggests go hear the Vandersteen 2c and the Maggie.Why?
It is nice to be able to purchase an American made product but is that product no matter where it is made going to be the right product for that listener?
How does he know that the Adantes may be far supperior to those loudspeakers if he has not heard them but only read about them?
If you like rock or play loud I can assure you the Adantes will be more than your cup of tea and would be preferable over the Maggies or Vandys.
If a customer came into our store and prefered to listen to acoustic jazz or classical I don't think we would recommend the Adantes but might recommend a Dali or an ATC.
It is also noble for both of these men to be fans of their products.
I have yet to put Tomic a Vandy 7 owner in the same room as Gr4blu a WP Sasha II owner and see who feels has the better speaker?
I don't hear Tomic yet say that the perfect piston Vandy driver trumps the reed paper cone of the WP, and I don't hear Greblu tell Tomic how the Wilson drivers are more musical than Carbon skined ones, and the Wilson X material is more inert than the double enclousure of the 7s.
Honestly it would be priceless.
The fact that cone material, crossover slope, cabinet construction is just some of the parts of that receipe that makes a great speaker, a great speaker.
A perfectly flat frequnecy response in speaker may not be prefered vs one that has some pleasing colorations, hence some people find very neutral speakers such as Magico or the Paradigm Pesonas not to their liking.
As per Gr4blu as usual add nothing to the discussion other than your blatent dislike of us, unless you have a relevant comment, not about shilling or dealers, you should go away.
This is a forum a place to discuss things about audio, not about protocall, or decorum or even good taste.
At least Tomic is civil I respect his comments, where we disagree is his all out admiration for Vandersteen as a designer and innovator and at least we both agree that the Giya is a magical speaker.
We do like the Vandy 1C and 2C for what they offer for the price but do not fall under the spell of the more expensive models. We do have tremendous respect for the company.
Back on track if you guys want to discuss what a great and affordable combination of the Adantes with the Naim Atom then you should chime in or other people who have heard them with complementary electronics should chime in.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Gee Tomic where did you say that.
Also why no disclosure of the dealership you managed?
The Atom 2 dimensonal what kind of cables are you using? |
Contuzzi why do you have 2 months of experience with them who do you work for?
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Mothberg you will love them you are the perfect canidate for them.
We also many years ago had the Rubies even with the omin tweeter module they were a bit dull, the had excellent punch and tight bass.
The Elac is the more exciting of the two speakers the Kef's are a bit more polite, they do image very well, big soundstage.
I think you will love the Adantes, go give them a listen and see for yourself.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Nice words Contuzzi, I am still pondering your comments " Keep in mind I have about two months worth of experience with them (AS and AF) ahead of you."
If you hate the speakers you are not an owner, as an owner would’t purchase two pairs of speakers they don’t like.
So you work for or are in the Industry do you want to explain that one?
As per your opinions, we do agree on how good the Personas can be, however, your lack of credibility about the importance of cables or electronics in shaping sound is downright hard to believe by someone with experience unless that person works at a store setup with a switchboard or one that sells only decent but not high end electronics.
Amplifers absolutely sound different not just tubes to solid state,
We have Cambridge Audio clean but a bit bright sound, compare that to a Naim which is warm and full bodied on the same speaker and you will get totally different results.
We never said the Adantes are perfect they are not they can sound really impressive with explosive dynaimcs and tight visceral bass providing you use compliementary electronics and cabling.
A great audio guy can take a speaker or amp and match it with the appropirate, electronics, cabling and digital to make a system that sounds great a bad one, just hooks up a set of speakers and pronunces them good or bad. It is something called synergy.
Good luck Contuzzi.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
PS all you haters, we now have Motherberg, ZZ,Arafiq, and Randysa who finds our posts informatve. In all four cases ZZ no one has purchased anything from us!
You guys really need to grow up a bit and view these forums as a place to exchange experiences which we have over 30 years of professional experience. |
Grgr4blu as usual you don’t get it, four other people on this thread found our comments both useful and enlightening.
It is becaue we have experience through years and years of testing and experimentation that we can offer perspectives that many people find useful.
In our shop we have a huge selection of digital products so we can actually guide a prospective client, so we know the differences between brands.
The point I was making about you and Tomic, is the ever over the top pefect piston argument, that people who are Vandy fans, as well as the time and phase alignment is the only way to build a speaker.
As a former Wilson owner whose speakers are not phase aligned, we don’t feel that is true as the WP 3/2 and 5 in their day sounded fantastic and we know you love your Sasha WP.
As per fanboy being a perjorative, it is. personally I hate all of the fanboys, not the people per se but this attitude, I know of one poster not Tomic, on every thread, there is usually one and only one brand of speaker that he ever really mentions. I don’t know about you but I find there are a lot of great speakers out there including ones we sell and ones we don’t, like Rockport and Vivid which we talk about but don’t sell either.
A fanboy is the type of person who believes that the Tekton is the best speaker for all listners, a fanboy only spouts Vandy or Wilson or whatever at every post, they don’t understand many brands because they may have limited experience.
If you notice we talk about specific speakers to appeal to specific listeners, tastes and budgets and room decor. Unless it is a post about choices where we usually mention our three reference lines the Kef Blades, the Legacy Aeris and the Paradigms. You will also notice we don’t usually say these are better but you may find them to be better and they rival x or y or may be better at this or that.
In the case of the Paradigms vs the Kharma Exquistes a $120k set of speakers we said they were very good just not worth that kind of money, you see we have to purchase our demo products so if we don’t think something is worth the money it is kind of hard to sell.
Many people are equilly tired of your incessant blathering and as demonstrated many peole, four in this thread, found our comments to be helpful, beneficial and of guidance does anyone find any value in your comments?
Stop trying to voice your views on the forums about our behavior and either bring to the forums your vast experience or just clam up.
Stick to the topic which is how does the Adante perform with a Naim and are there othe people who have found a musically pleasing combination with the speakers?
And if this was a shill/sales post, then don’t you think we would not point out that the speakers are not perfect and they do have some issues?
Yes on the Naim Atom with WIreworld cables and the Adante AS 61 listening to streaming music was totally fantastic and was engaging.
Please add something about how the speakers sound based on your experience.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Hey Ozzy I have some great Budweiser, and some stale chips, stop by any time for that wonderful listening session-music matters,..too!
I also have some fine Columbian and Curveo gold and some great Donald Fagen records. Peace
Thanks for appreciating our posts.
Your resident, Elac, CJ, Manley Labs, Aurender, PSB, Dali, Rethem, Naim, Nad, Nuprime, Mytek, Wireworld, JL Labs, Legacy, Paradigm, Anthem, Micromega, ATC, Electrocompaniet, Isotek, Audience, Audio Magic, Kef, Rega, Nottingham, Merril Williams, Lyra, T+A, Unison Research, Synthesis, Parasound, Lumin, Baetis, Innous, Aqua Hifi, Light Harmonic, Shakti, Acoutic Systems, Cary, Solid Tech, dealer/shill!
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Grgr4blu
Interesting, I see you are enjoying an audio system that was purchased somewhere from someone, or did you cobble it together in your workshop? That audio system was designed to do what exactly ah yes, PLAY MUSIC!
So unless your are a talented musician you are going to need equipment to play that music on, so equipment is required to do the job. So to recap no equipment = NO MUSIC for you to listen to.
If you purchased components rather then created them yourself, did you ever visit a shop ever to learn about components, or to just listen to some music, or talk about what’s new, did you then talk to a salesperson whose job it is to know about and sell components, does that salesmen do that job for 40 hours or so a week and is therefore eminently qualified to discuss their knowledge of what those components do, or go to a an audio show which is run by manufacturers who sells products designed to make music?
You are so busy pointing the finger of impropriety and "selling" or "shilling" or "trolling" you fail to see the hypocrite for which you are, see above.
Your self professed knowledge comes from what? Your years as an audiophile, vs our 30 plus years of doing this day in and day out and finding combinations, tweaks, and evaluating products which we do constantly?
So back on topic, what do you think of the Elac Adantes? Do you find them to be excellent imagers, do you think they have an accurate midrange, if not where are they colored, how do you hear that, and if so compared to which other speakers in the price range? How do they compare to the ATC or KEF R300, or any of the other popular monitors, how is the treble detailed? How is the bass?
You really need to grow up man there are people four on this thread alone that have recognized that our posts are helpful and have aided them in making decisions.
And yes we are getting so rich by buying the latest components to always have the best possible selection for our clients vs those other stores who are selling the same old products and never evaluating whether or not their products are as good as the new Mytek Brooklyn Dac, or Elac or the new Quad speakers?
It is such a shame that you are such a close minded individual I could guarantee we could have taught you how to make your system sound way better and probably have saved you a ton of music in the process.
As I sit hear and listen to the Elac AS 61 on our new Naim Nova.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Cstonner, you think our bias is sickening?
I flat out told you when we met that the entire room was taken apart for a photo shoot the day before, things were moved. and turned off, components were changed and I accommodated you and your friend to come in listen without verifying that the system once it was put back sounded as it should.
AND I AGREEDED with you that both systems sounded at that point not good and were not representative at all of the sound we were getting particularly with the 9H.
And AFTER that was explained to you had the bad taste to post what your impressions were even when I flat out told you that I was not happy with the sound as it was the sound good.
It would have been different If I agreed that the systems sounded good which if you had bothered to pay attention to what was said but in your head you were gloating to yourself that you were right.
DO YOU KNOW THAT THE EQ FUNCTIONS ON THE PREAMP were turned ON. DO YOU ALSO KNOW THAT I DIDN"T ENGAGE THEM!
Do you think that might have affected the sound and that was just one part of what was wrong.
You happen to be the sick one, as you are so blinded by the love or your products that you have the bad taste to post what you just did.
If you read the posts as above, mentioned several times that the 1C and 2C were great value for the money speakers. Disagreed with you about the more expensive models.
Flavor of the month? Paradigm has been making excellent speakers for years, Legacy has been in business for years. and the Aeris haven been on the market for four years, only the Paradigm Pesona series itself is new and of course Elac’s Adante line is new.
Ctstooner, would you give me the same privilege to judge your system which we would still be at a disadvantage as you probably would be showing your system off in the best circumstances and I went out of my way to let you come in and listen when I should have said no that the systems weren’t ready.
The same kind of thing happens in show reports day one system sounds bad, day three is sounds fantastic because things were changed.
I stayed up late that night just reassembling the place, which was my mistake. Ctstooner, lets just part way in thinking we are both biased, you like and believe Vandersteen makes the best most musical speakers out there, We don’t.
Did you hear the Legacy Aeris at the New York Audio show? We had people coming up to us saying they blew away $60k speakers.
If you really want to be wowed for $70k go listen to a pair of Scaena Line arrays they put most speakers to shame at $100k..
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Lastly Ctstonner, like Tomic's comments about wine and music and Grgr4blu comments about nothing.
You are missing the point, this post is about Adantes speakers and finding compatible equipment with them.
Are you know going to tell us that the Naim Uniti gear isn't good, when the Nova for example is being raved reviewed all over the internet?
Please regale the reading public about what you have thought about these products. I am sure if you had heard the Adantes you wouldn't even give them a decent evaluation, because of course you would you would be thinking I can get a pair of 2Ci for that money and not looking for what each speaker does well and what they don't.
The difference between you and I is that we know who a product is good for and don't try fitting everyone into the same camp as well as see these products for what they are and if you also read the above posts we even mentioned the Adantes do have a peak.
Ctstooner, keep your comments to about what is being discussed.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Sorry mofo,
It is hard to do.-When you are being harrased.
We should all stick to the discusion about the products and nothing else.
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Ctstooner, sorry don’t feel that way, you may have gone out of your way but it was your buddy who set up the appointment, and it was in a time window not of my choosing and I think I told him it was right after a photo shoot.
If the situtation was reversed I would never make a disparaging comments on how a system sounds when the dealer/manufacturer/owner came straight out and said the system is not performing correctly, that is called professional courtsey.
If and only if I said yeah this system sounds great and proceeded to then tell you were wrong and say itsounds great then we would be at odds.
However, wasn’t the case, I flat out agreed with you that the two big systems you heard did not sound good at all and as mentioned was due to a number of factors, such as taking systems apart, moving equiment, changhing furniture, changing dacs etc.
This wasn’t about taste it was about system setup which took a long time to get back again where things are starting to sound right.
As per flooging gear on the posts, four guys wrote in and in support of what they have learned, and none of those guys are our regular customers.
People have found out about the T+A gear, as well as many other brands we were championing because of our posting, Do you think Tekton would have gotten any traction without these posts?
Many people are turned on to new brands all the time via these posts.
As per loving a system was really enjoying the Elac Adantes on the Naim Uniti Nova, switched out a set of Legacy Signatures and they were alos sounding fantastic.
Maybe I will invite you back to hear the 9H when the Light Harmonic Davinci 2 comes back that is our reference system and only if we listen to the system extensively first which was not the case.
That was stupid we made the assumption that these systems would sound good when put back in some semblance of the way they were, that was our mistake.
Ctstooner, I also think you are a nice guy, your incessant Vandy love was also noted by a few other people, there are many, many great speakers and depending on who you talk to and what they like you tailor your recommendations to that persom. If you notice on most forum posts we recommend one particular line of speakers if someone is talking about Harbeth we talk about ATC which is one of the other famous British loudspeaker compainie, if you like Harbeth you will most likely like ATC but not a more dynamic and forward sounding speaker like the Elac.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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The other issue is your comments here had nothing to do with Elac you fall into the bad taste behavor of Gr4blu and his incessant complaining of what he perceives is bad form by us.
Because we got drawn into a discussion of Vandy and Maggie we started not to dis them but to layout for the client what they do well and their nature. It was only when a Vandy dealer uttered the words "revolutionary" did we start a discussion on what constitutes revolutionary.
In our mind Richard has over the years done some good stuff, but lets face facts, he is not a trained engineer. He is a man who came up with some good ideas and launched a company that through hard work and clever manfacturing made a fantastic speaker for the price with particualar trade offs and a sonic signature and yes through the 37 years colloborated with a few others and did come up with some excellent stuff.
By the way there are many guys in this industry who fall into the same catagory including Dan D'agistino and Mark Levinson the man.
And by the way over the years sold dozens of pairs of the 2Ce and 1C and will still say they are great value for the money speakers.
Do you know we had a pair of the older Quattros traded in and we listened to them before we sold them. Also had Maggies and a zillion others come through our doors.
I will leave you with the last part as said before, many people call us and state they have learned a lot from reading our posts.
Make you discussion on what is being discussed which is Elac and finding matching components.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
No Jhills we ridicule nothing, if you actually read the posts we said on numerous times the 1C and 2Ce are great value for dollar speakers and we have mentioned that the Harbeths have a great midrange.
The issue is what you perceive as real? Owned Quad ESL 63 and they were wonderful, super musical loudspeakers, however, once we moved to Wilson WP 3/2 and then 5 the Quads felt like a great snap shot of an altered reality the WP sounded like you were with the band.
I used to do a demo at SBS with the WP and played a hellocopter at loud levels just for a few min part of Pink Floyds the wall, and the WP could make you feel like you were there, the punch and dyamic range and imaging was spectacular. Do you think the Quad could do that, or a set of Maggies?
There really are two camps people who believe that a system that sounds real is good, which also means that on some recordings the system will not sound good, those who prefer reality, and those who feel that what sounds good and pleasing is right, because it sounds good and is pleasing.
We are not calling you wrong for liking what you like it is a preference.
I like to hear a cymbol sound like a cymbol. As mentioned before go to a Wedding with a live band, that has horns, can you stand to be near the trumpets, or do brass instruments sound harsh?
If your system when played at a loud level has extended frequency response than a similar recording will sound the same, it will be a bit brassy and harsh.
Now if your system has a recessed top end you will be able to listen to that same demo but it won’t be fatiguing.
The issue with a high resolution tweeter, Diamond, Beryilium, Ribbon comes a huge amount of detail the issue is how to make that type of speaker still be listenable by using just the right combination of electronics, cabling and digital.
You can tone down a brigher speaker but nearly impossible to add more brightness and clarity if the system won’t do it.
As mentioned before both of these types of system are preferences.
One is not more right than another, if live music is your reference you may be more drawn to the high res camp, if you listen to chamber music, soft vocal jazz, and crave smoothness and lack of fatique then the warmer more musical camp is the right direction.
This why we sell both brands like ATC soft dome tweeter/paper cone midrange and the Paradigm Persona which use Beryilium drivers.
They both are great and both sound different.
Hope that helps.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Golf would love to do that shoout out. We have heard the Golden Ears many times before, and the two speaker share some similar traits:
Both have very deep tight bass. Obviously the Tritons go lower and have adjustable bass so that one goes to the Tritons.
The Elac's have a dual concentic with a mild horn load which creates a very big soundstage, vs the Diapolito configuration of the Tritons so the Elacs would produce a bigger more focused soundstage.
Also the Tritons are more efficient so that one goes to the Tritons.
Also the Elac driver happens to have a bit more treble detail vs the Tritons which tend to sound a bit recessed even with the Heil AMT that they use.
Cabinet construction and styling okay, the Adante wins this one.
This would make an interesting shoot out, both are fantastic high value loudspeakers.
Battle royale, I take it you have and love the Tritons.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Clarinetmonster, sorry for that ommision, we were talking about his TAD work and the Adante's are more reminiscent of what he was doing with TAD and the Unifi Line for Elac.
The Debut line was built to an inexpensive price point and like the Pioneer line was created to sell to the masses so was voiced diferently.
Andrew Jones is a cagey designer he knows what he can build for a price point. As said before we have a client with the Pioneer's that Andrew Jones designed and they are impressive for a cheapie speaker system.
Thanks for that.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Grgr4blu, oh I am going to miss your insights into sound reprodution and all you add to the discussion, so very much.
If I remember, the post was not about you and in reality it was not about our store, it was about finding a combination that makes the Adantes sound terrific.
Considering you know so much about the high end audio market, you were not able to add one thing to the conversation, as usual. Hardly surprising.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Ctsooner, no I learned something, that guys like you can’t have a civil discussion and it is nearly impossible to open your eyes into anything that is is different or other ways of looking at things.
You think that after I agreeded with you that the two systems we played were not preforming the way they should could you perhaps have had the decency to consider that all was not well for the reasons stated in our previous post. and perhaps have not passed judgement on what you heard because it wasn’t sounding right?
The mistake made was trying to accomodate you and your friend without testing the systems first and by having a photo shoot the week before.
As per you hearing Lecacy and the Personas, where exactly?
Again, the Persona dealer in CT, been to his shop. and he may be nice but if I remember his facility wasn’t setup with really top of the line gear nor cables or anything. With Legacy where did you hear them, they have no dealers in this territory otther then us and the older Legacy models were not in the same ball park as the current series.
At the last show many people were amazed at the sound.
Richard may have been in the airforce that doesn’t make him a trained engineer, especially with loudpeakers. Do they teach loudspeaker design, and acoustics classes in the Airforce? Don ’t they usualy teach a skill like repair rather then design in the Airforce? The fact that you have to defend him with so much fervor is just one reason why the post spiraled into this mess.
The fact that a guy like you can’t see the difference between a Laurie Finchem, or Lawrence Dickie, or an Andrew Jones, proves you don’t really have a history of audio that is based on some of the men who were behind the sceens of the largest and most sucessful audio companies in history such as Kef and B&W, I am sure you are going to tell me that KEF and B&W speakers sound bad and are not pistonic and have metal driver colorations etc. Compare the technical acchievements from these large companies and how many novel driver and cabinet innovations came forth from them.
Vandersteen has created a great product that many people adore, but this whole magilla started when a particular dealer used the word revolutionary about his products, which started our points about who and what constitues something that is revolotionary that discussion wasn’t meant to raise up or tear down anyone it was about perspective in an industry where too many people hail some minor thing as "revolutionary." without acknowledging the difference between really coming out with something new or changing some minor detail and then making that claim.
The only thing revolutionary that we can see was the DBS battery pack idea which has more to do with cabling then with speakers although it may help the speakers perform better, and an design to help with midrange colorations in the midrange driver design of the 3A. Composite cones have been done before by JM Labs and Thiel before.
As per Elac needing a ton of power to sound right, what do you base that on exactly? Where did you hear them and perhaps that company didn’t have a great souding smaller amp like the Naim.
We have them sounding very good on a 40 watt Naim integrated which costs $3,000.00 we are playing them in a room 18 by 16.
Do you know that with 40 watts in that size room you can probably still get to 90+ db. How loud do you want to listen?
Heard the same bull with the ATC also a 85db loudspeaker, sure they will really knock your socks off with a big amplifier, because they can play so loud so cleanly, however, same thing on a good 40 watt per channel amp at a decent volume level they can sound magnificent and play loud enough for most people unless they are trying to play at concert levels.
Ctstooner, you are a nice guy and you have your opinions, and we have ours, lets just agree to disagree.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Yeah Ctsooner we are back on track.
Here is where we agree, yes the Adantes do like "quality" power.
You can drive them with a 40 watt amp, the Naim is $3,000.00 not $1,000.00 the biggest issue that we perceive with the Adantes is people using them with sub optimal electronics or not realizing that these speakers throw out prodigious bass and are not your typical stand mount.
As per Tomics points, quite frankly not true, if you noticed we said on many, many times on these posts that we like and respect the Vandy 1C and 2Ce loudspeakers.
We don't need to rehash what we don't like about Vandys sound compared to the products we sell, we sell our products because we like the sound and value proposition of brands like Elac, Legacy, Paradigm, Dali.
We like high resolution speakers we like Ribbons, Beryillium tweeters, AMT drivers in general you find these kinds of drivers bright. We find with careful tunning you can have your cake and eat it too.
This was a discussion on what in our minds constitutes true innovation vs evolution in audio.
Look at Apple, Apples products are 99.99 percent evolutionary, it is their implimentation which has propelled them to the top.
The Ipod was not the first MP3 player, the Iphone was not the first smart phone. In that light we talked about Vandys accomplishments as refining other ideas, such as composite cones, while we did acknowlege his improvment in creating a uniqe midrange driver and DBS, it is not saying that making a composite cone out of balsa isn't a tremendous accomplishment it must be or they wouldn't have a patent on it the real argument, is that driver technology really better than anyone elses proprietary sandwich cone?
In our view true revolution is comming up with completely different ways of doing things, completely new ideas Tesla's electric cars are not revolutionary, however, Chevrolets first electric car the EV1 was.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Mikapen,
It is hardly painful it is a pleasure, google our business and see.
It is one thing to have an discussion and raise points and not reconize the validity of your opponents opinions, or not.
If you notice we said on countless posts that the 1C and 2Ce are great value for dollar speakers, we are not in love with the other models as some of these other gentleman are and prefer our products for the price and value which they represent.
Nor do we love planers after owning numerous ones.
One particular gentleman got bent out of shape when we disagreed on who and what constitues revolutionary vs evolutionary. Yes a balsa wood cone is innovative but is it better than anyone else driver employing their composites?
Do you think that Kef and B&W and Focals cones aren’t perfectly pistonic?
If you actually read what we wrote you woud see we know a lot about many different brands and sound in audio.
Where we differ is we don’t blindly recommend the same products to everybody.
Good luck to you and if you are in the area you should stop by.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
PS Tomic you will get much higher not smoking balsa wood.
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Fssonicsmith
I guess reading isnt your strong point.
We talk about how much we like Rockport loudspeakers we arent dealers for them.
So i guess we are shilling for them too.
By the way most dealers talk about the products they sell or they would not be endorsing them.
Ask Contuzzi if he is shilling for Paradigm as he mentions them alot also. |
Gee Contuzzi guess what?
We never contacted the moderator not once.
As per better without us there are at least 4 people who have contacted us in support of what they have learned.
I wonder how many people have learned anything from you?
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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One last point Cotuzzi most of the thread posts have been to rebuttals of
Guys like you.
There would be very little need for any rebuttals if people would stay on track.
This is a forum to discuss products and how to set up and enjoy them not a forum to name call who is or is not trolling or shilling.
Any dealer that mentions a product they sell in a positive light is technically shilling.
Good luck to you please continue to believe in what you want to believe like all amps which measure well sound the same, and cables and power conditioners are a scam.
We will continue with what we do test and listen.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Too bad Repeluso. You dont read either. 4 people found our comments helpful. You are not adding anything to this disscussion. Do you have a comment about Elac Adantes or not? Go check out our shilling of 0 products on the room/speakers post. Or the guy with blown Avalons post Or the guy who needs a Forsell serviced again 0 discussion or mention of any of our products. Interesting that you never managed to comment on those posts where we offered good advice without getting anything. Guys like you need to grow up and not be questioning someones motives. If you dont think there are tons of unannounced real shills on this site you got another thing comming. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor Nj Want to see why we know so much https://m.facebook.com/pg/audiodoctor1/posts/Where do u work? |
Plenty busy actually.
The point is we work in the audio industry, it is our job to know, test, and to evaluate audio gear.
Funny we find a guy like you with your narrow point of view to be childish.
You questioned our motives when you stated that we are shillling for our products.
To which we showed you in several posts we try to assist people whenever we can.,
There is so much misinformation on this site.
And again stick to the topic ELAC Adates got an opinion on em?
I guess not or you would actually be doing what a forum is supposed to be about. Talking about audio.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Gerdessc
You are correct it should be fun and people should be able to express ideas and points without people blowing their tops.
You got guys saying they would never come into our shop, based on what they read, here, come on, if you think the experience of talking with someone on a forum is like meeting someone in person or talking with them on the phone it isn't. The ultimate proof is hearing the products and systems setup and seeing for yourself if you agree or disagree that the sound is good and to your taste.
We even said the Elac's have a tendency to be a bit hot and require careful matching. The problem is how overblown people's love and support of their products is.
You should be able to openly discuss, drivers, technology, engineers, etcs, without feeling threatened. Whether brand X or Y employs technology which would be considered by some to be "revolutionary" while others do not feel that that technology is classified as such should engender an open discourse
The derisive term that some posters have been raising towards us is shilling or trolling, for gain, the reality is that almost 0 people have purchased anything from us, by our replies on these forums, read what Zzsantabarbara wrote about what they learned from us
The point we keep on making is that audio products are just tools if you can find a better one who cares out with the old and in with the new.
We are passionate about our products but quite frankly don't care so much about the brand we are always discovering and trying out new brands and equipment.
In the case of Elac the Adantes are brand new and are controversial because they do have a pronounced flavor, if you care for a dynamic, visceral speaker with a big sound stage and a bit forward treble, you will love them.
If you prefer a softer treble, a richer midrange and less pronounced deep bass these are not the speakers for you.
If you notice in our posts we often mention different products as we sell many brands of loudspeakers, including, Dali, Legacy, Elac, Paradigm, KEF Rethem, Gradient, Cabasse we don't feel that any one brand of these speakers is more correct then the others, while other dealers, posters feel that only brand x is the path to musical nirvana.
This post was started to demonstrate that you can put together a fantastic package that is affordable and makes the Elac's come alive with a very complimentary package and not to go off track with a discussion of other loudspeakers design attributes.
The moderators are doing a terrible job, posts that are not related to the subject should be removed. Period, no member should be attacked because you don't like what they write.
If you don't like what they write don't get indignant just don't read the post. There are many great people here with different points of view and likes and dislikes.
The market is vast and you may be surprised by what you can learn from stores like ours we have over 60 brands on display, because we try to find products to fit the client, not fit the client to the product.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Gerdessc,
Never have we browbeaten anyone, nor do we diminish anyone's preferences.
We like and respect many brands that we don't sell, but unlike some of the other posters, we do not subscribe to the only one brand is better philosophy. We believe in offering real choice, sure we have our preferences but if you visited our shop and were shopping for speakers we would play you many different loudspeakers till we found a system that made you happy.
As we have discussed on many other forum posts, there are fantastic loudspeakers that are first order time aligned designs and ones that are not, that are also fantastic.
We do not believe that there is only one truth in audio so the Wilson guy who loves Wilson or the Vandy guy who loves Vandy may or may not love our Paradigms or Legacys or Kef's but there are some who may be shopping for these products and fall in love with the sound of some of these.
We have recommended our brands as we wouldn't be recommending them if we didn't think that those products represent the core values which we believe in you will notice that in these general discussions we talk about other loudspeakers we don't sell that we like as well.
Lets just agree that we all have preferences and even if a system is well setup and voiced a particular way may not be to a particular persons liking.
Our preference generally is for very dynamic, transparent, loudspeakers, transistor amps and digital sources, that is not to say that we don't also love vinyl and tubes.
On only one occasion have we brought in something totally different which is the Rethem Bahava which is a wide band single drive with isobaric bass as a really cool alternative type of speaker.
You seem like a nice fellow, but don't get suckered in by some of these very negative people and perhaps reach out and talk to us and see what you think. You may be pleasantly surprised by what we can offer you in terms of ideas on how to make your system even better.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor
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Ctstooner, really rather amusing.
If we were to check your 1,700 or so posts how many other loudspeakers have you ever endorsed or even mentioned vs one partiuclar brand?If you like so many different loudspeakers how come you never seem to discuss any of them?
If someone is interested in Vandersteen do you ever mention any of the other louspeakers in the price range that many other people endorse like Golden Ear, or PSB, or Focals, or Rockport, or a zillion other choices?
Sorry CT don't see it. How many posts did you mention Ayre over and over again, and now I think you discovered the Overdrive is even better?
If the answer is no, that you are biased and in fact more so then us,
As per contacting people here on PM quite frankly is almost never happens I wonder how many other dealers do this?
If you also can't understand hyperbole, no one acutally laughed at anybody at SBS or any other store, you mistake figurative vs literal.
And also as mentioned before, you suffer from the same behavior as Grgr4blu, the discusion post is about Elac Adantes.
Do you have an opinion about them? What was the combination that you or your friends/dealers found that works well with them?
I find it super interesting that several people here have more of a personal vendetta about things that have been said about certain brands of other speakers rather than staying on topic, which is not about us it is about a particular set of speakers and finding matching electronics.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Long Rants Ct really look at yours?
Staying on topic really?
Please list all the dealers you heard Elac-Adantes and what they were using?
That is staying on topic which i see you cant as per having the last word laid everything out in the last post you didnt need the rebuttal.
Common CT look in the mirror your biases are crystal clear.
Dont make a living by writing on these posts however the amount of misinformation is staggering.
Go look at many of our recent posts where we mention TAD, Sopras as speakers to check out we dont sell either brand.
And most of our brands arent exclusive so who are we helping?
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I guess we will agree to disagree.
I wonder if your posts have assisted anyone?
We can name at least 6 people who followed our advice however i see you just cant even stay on the topic which I recall is Elac.
Asked you what these people are using with them?
Get over it Ct stick to the topic or move along.
The post is about Elac Adates and combos that work with them.
It is not about us vs Ct or anyone.
Stick to the topic or stop replying.
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Mapman and Cn, yes the moderators do need to step in.
A post whether you like the poster, or not, or agree or disagree with the points being made does not mean that people should be stepping off target and making some of these ridiculous assertions.
For the record we have almost never received anything from these posts.
We post because we have over 30 years of experience in this, not as a hobby but as a full time vocation and if it isn’t obvious, we are the kind of store that moves in and out of gear to find what is the best products for our clients and we test new products vs our older staples constantly.
For example recently we brought in Mytek, Anthem STR integrated, Anthem STR seperates, Naim Uniti Nova. LH Harmonic Davinci 2, CJ Classic 62Se,Rethem, Innuous servers, Elac Adantes and probably I am forgetting a few pieces.
In the case of the Elac Adantes way too much positive buzz about how they sounded at CES not to take notice.
Mapman, the AS 61 we can compare to the ATC SCM 11, and 19, the Kef LS 50, Dali Mentor Minuet, Paradigm Prestige and Persona, and KEF Ref 1.
The Adante has a very dynamic sound with a very tight punchy bass, a very clean midrange, and very big soundstge, they do tend to be a tad forward in the treble.
If you like the sound of the Wilson WP especially the original 5, and 7 you will love the Adantes they really slam, and they have a lot of bass so they can over load a small room if your tastes tend to warmer more laid back sounding speakers like Harbeth you will not like them at all.
The ATC throw a more focused soundstage with a bit less bass, however, the Adante will most probably be the winner over the SCM 11.
The Bel Canto can easily drive them, the only issue will be they are a bit more forward in the treble than the Dynaudios. So choice of cabling and sources can be an issue.
Adante think very clean, dynamic and punchy. A great rock speaker, great for jazz, big robust sounding speakers.
You will really not need a subwoofer with them. In our 18 by 14 demo room the bass can rattle the windows a bit.
They do not sound good at all out of the package.
Hope that helps and thanks for getting the post back to talking about speakers.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Arafiq hardly surprsing. We are a Parasound dealer, and although they make a good amp for the money
Parasounds products generally sound warm and a bit closed in.
The LS 50w would sound cleaner and more open due to active crossover, 0 cabling, and perfectly designed amps.
As per Elac Adantes vs Ls 50 no comparson there. The Ls 50 sounds like a fantastc monitor, the Adantes sound like a floorstander.
Cr if you have specific questions PM us.
We currently have the Kef Ls 50, Kef Ref 1, Elac Adates, ATC Scm 11, Scm 19.
Paradigm Persona B on display.
So we can answer questions pertaining to any comparisons.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Ctstooner your points are being raised for what reason exactly?
There is no paid forum on Audiogon. As per gaining sales, so far has almost never happened.
Any dealer that responds to these posts and mentions their dealship name is "selling " or calling attention to their dealership and their expertise, however, if you are not supposed to be an invisible non identified person who works for a dealer so hiding anonomously that isn’t right either.
I don't see you raising these objections when a particular Vandy dealer friend of yours answers or makes comments on these boards and signs off with his dealship's name, you can't have it both ways.
People are free to make up their own minds on whom they want to do business with. As per manufacturers protecting dealers, you can order, almost anything on line and have it shipped directly to you by dealerships like ours or others or on line shops like Cruthfield or Music Direct.
It is up to the respective reader to see if they want to discuss a possible purchase or not with whomever they like.
As per Peachtree class D anything is not going to be exactly peachy with these particular speakers as most ICE based amps sound noticably thiner with great bass control but tend to have a less warm sound compared to a good class A/B amp, however, with that being said we haven’t heard the latest Peachtree stuff. We have had Ice based amps, Hypex and NCore here and haven’t found one yet that we actually wanted to listen to. We have found the Nuprime amps which are hybrid Class A/D amps and the NAD to actually sound good, but haven’t tried these amps with the Elacs.
We do recommend a really good tube/solid state hybrid. Do you know of any, we know of an amazing sounding one, but hey I can’t mention names now or that woud be shilling right?
Perhaps you should hear the combo we recommended in the post initially?
And yes there are ton’s of good choices in this price point including Vandy, Kef, Dali, Paradigm, B&W, Golden Ear, ATC, Harbeth, Focal as well as the Elac Adantes, we just have the added advantage of having most of the major players to compare them to in one location, which is why we post in the first place.
Go google Audio Doctor and see what people whom have either worked with or visited our shop have to say about working with us. One of the reasons we get people comming in to our shop is the selection of top competing brands is very wide, because we seek out what is new and setting the market on fire because our philsophy is to support the clients not the manufacturers, if someone is making a better dac or amp or speakers then what we sell we replace that brand or model with the new one.
For many people there aren’t any good dealers with a wide selection left in many parts of the country.
We will go find a Peachtree to listen to, why don’t you find a Naim to listen to and see what you think.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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