My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
I'm interested as well to read WC's views on biwiring. I am an advocate of bi-amping which takes load/strain away from one amp for the lows/highs. However, the benefit of biwring allude me.
I am interesting in this.
Since the Neoliths have internal crossovers, you can't bypass the internal crossover and use external crossovers. However, the Neoliths probably have very good internal crossovers. I believe that Wilson speakers also have internal crossovers. Actually, I'm not even sure you can bi-amp Wilsons.
But if you take identical amps and bi-amp then the difference would be that one amp powers the lows and one amp powers the highs, thereby removing strain from the amps and a benefit in sound in reached.
Are you going to use different gauge wiring for bi-wiring? The theory I remember was that high frequency go on the lower gauge wires and low frequency on the higher gauge wire. I've seen no real evidence of this and personally would just use the same type of wire. But, what do I know.
I use Audio Research REF 250 mono amps for the upper panel of my Martin Logan Monolith III Speakers and a Mark Levinson 23.5 for the bass woofers through a Krell KBX balanced electronic crossover.
So, after playing with bi-wiring, WC can try bi-amping. The amps on the upper panels must be the same. But, the woofer amp does not have to be the same. As long as you can adjust the gain on the amp, or if the power output is the same. My Krell KBX crossover has adjustable high and low controls. so I'm good.
In response to Viber6's inquiry, I can't really see any reason why bass response on digital should be lacking, except if the digital recording itself is bad or if the compression/decompression is done poorly. If the mike's and recording medium can't handle low frequencies, (in otherwords, crappy recording equipment), then the lows won't be there in the first place. But, this is true for analog recording as well. With high enough sample rate, the low frequency response should be there if the recording is done correctly and the playback equipment can handle low frequencies.
But, as I suggested to WC, sometimes, it is the room. it is an eye opener when one uses the stereophile test cd and play white noise through their system and use an app like audiotools and look at the response in your room. There may be low frequency valleys that explain where the low frequency weakness lie.
Thanks for your info on digital EQ. This requires further study, but at the moment with my non computer based old fashioned CD, DAC, EQ, amp system, I don't see how the Roon can be utilized. I am certainly interested in digital EQ. I met with Bill Parish at his home a few years ago when I was considering the Mola Mola Kaluga amps. He didn't know of a digital EQ for my purposes back then. Bill is a wonderful guy with great knowledge. The Mola Mola Kaluga is a great amp with my neutral tonal preference, so it is still under consideration.
I agree that for EQ, attenuation is useful, although my overall use of EQ goes far beyond what many people are doing with room correction for limited freq in the lower freq. For example, I was able to make my Mytek amp sound more neutral (less sweet) by attenuating 200-600 Hz a little. I use my ears to suit my preferences, and would not care what microphones measured as some kind of "ideal" to be imposed on the system. Such software systems might create improvements in some ways, and I am not claiming that my adjustments are the theoretical correct way, they are just what I want to achieve musically to my standards/preferences. I am still interested in digital EQ to tailor the tonal balance to my needs, but the end result is still obtained by listening. Perhaps electronics involved in the digital process is superior to my Rane with its analog electronics, so I have an open mind. Unlike others, I like to boost HF above 10 Khz significantly to offer much more brilliance in recordings that are laid back (which is most of them), which has the effect of extending down to the midrange to a lesser degree. The midrange is affected in a reasonably subtle manner, always consistent with musicality, not a hifi disco type of distortion.
I also realize that rock/pop/jazz recordings in general are hotter than classical recordings, which is why many people here who like rock, etc. are puzzled why I am really out on the fringe by boosting the HF the way I do. Many classical listeners sit far back in the concert hall and prefer the sound they are used to, which is laid back sound. But listeners to jazz are usually closer, and the music is more upfront and exciting, so they find EQ is not needed. For jazz, the mike is often right at the bell of the saxophone, much closer than for brass instruments in classical pieces. I am just one of those unusual classical listeners who listens at close distances in an attempt to get the close perspective of the performer when I am wearing my other hat.
Also, do any of your acquaintances have digital preamps/amps that are truly superior to analog? Can you name the equipment that they have? If so, this is another reason not to spend too much money on today's dinosaur electronics. Progress often happens faster than most of us can stay solvent. (RIAA will recognize my paraphrase of an investment strategy to take reasonable losses in order to survive in the game.)
@minorl The questions you have about biwiring is something I cannot answer, but there are many articles available on the web about the subject. You spoke about passive biamping, horizontally. I, too have been a proponent of biamping, passive biamping, both horizontal and vertical passive biamping. Vertical passive biamping does reqiure 4 of the same amp channels. I have listened and I have determined, V is better, " for me ". I am also very critical of the match between a dynamic woofer and an electrostatic panel, and how they blend. I would hope at the 80K price, this " coherence " or blend between the two in the Neo is much better. I would need to listen. Also, because of this coherence issue, using different amps for the woofs and panels ( horizontal biamping ), imo and ime, makes this coherence ( blending ) issue even greater, as you hear the differences between the amplifiers.. This is just me. Enjoy ! MrD.
viber, I understand you are not directing any comments towards me, which is fine. In your last post, it seems to be, and, I am happy to see, that you have finally established yourself as a very different listener than most, and I thank you. Enjoy ! MrD.
Class d is real and it’s coming. More efficient, more voltage, more power, less heat, less weight, less space, etc etc. As soon as the big heavy hitters enter the arena then it will be a battle. For now, the big boys of amplification remain with solid stare but that will change overtime.
Technodude: you seem to constantly not realize that the Neolith drops to 0.5ohms which means it will not be easy to make it sound the best unless high caliber amps are next to it. The only reason why I said I was doing biwire is because my Plinius has 4 binding posts per channel so I was going to just use them and connect them to the Neolith to see if there’s any significant change. That’s all I said I was going to do. Nobody said I was buying 4 Plinius amps to drive them. Do you realize I have an 80k speaker and I STILL HAVE NOT used monoblocks? Wouldn’t you use monoblocks on a speaker of this caliber?? Yea, I still haven’t done that so this is a slow process here. Relax man... I’m going through the motions with these speakers and hearing them as I go up the ladder in terms of amplification. I want to little by little hear how much I’ve not heard yet on this speaker.
Update: block audio Monos are in route and I will be the first person to give them a run. Nobody has seen them in person or heard them. 560 lbs total crated weight. If they don’t arrive by the end of the week, the following weekend you will be able to hear my initial impressions.
It would make sense that 2 sets of wires are going to transmit more sound to the speaker. I think you can bi-wire with or without the straps that connect the two for a single speaker cable. I look at it this way. I use 8 gauge OFC braided wire to my speakers. I like this size of wire for speakers. Sometimes I see speaker wire that looks like it is not enough. So 2 sets of speaker wire technically should offer some kind of difference, especially at louder levels. I am not a bi-wire expert. I just use logic and give things a shot. Haven never bi-wired, but would like to. Especially with some speaker cables that I deem not enough wire for massive power amplifiers to feed into the speaker of choice. I can sure tell the difference when a speaker wire is choking, and sometimes that turns into heat that you can feel. OK. There is my take. Would love to try it sometime (bi-wire).
WC, Class D amps are already SOTA. The $16,500 retail for the Mola Mola Kaluga is a reasonable price for the SOTA quality. I almost bought them from Bill Parish, who said they sound more accurate than the much more pricey Soulution 700 series amps. We'll see if the class D ambitious offerings from Rowland and Merrill are worth the higher prices. Just note that they are all class D. And my Mytek is class D. At $2000, it beats most amps costing much more. It may have more sparkle than your Plinius, and be more neutral (less warm) in tonal flavor, while still having elegant, smooth HF. It is remarkable how you find the Plinius very powerful even at its modest power rating. You might be even more pleasantly surprised at the Mytek.
bigdesign 3, to properly execute, and get whatever benefits biwiring shows, the straps would need to be removed. Most straps are crap, anyway, at least those that come with speakers. For every one person who says biwiring is superior, there is one person who says it does nothing. Providing all four speaker cables are the same make, model and length going from the amp to the speaker, I have always heard an increase in sq. Doesn't matter if it was subtle or dramatic, because in some cases it was one or the other, but, it was apparent in listening. As I've said, I am not sure of the science, but I go with what my ears tell me. WC, I would love to hear your Neos, as they might make me a believer in electrostatic hybrids. All in due time. Enjoy ! MrD.
The next technology for strictly digital use is the digital amps , not class d. Exogal and Lyndorf are two I am aware of . Glowing reviews for both makers . Something just right with their sound .
WC, I never wrote anything about bi amping. Please read careffully, BI WIRING.
BI WIRING does not improve sound quality, if the straps ( jumpers) used are from the same quality and brand as the speakers cables you use and if the speaker cables you use have enough wire gage to not limit current flow.
So int his case , just replace the straps with WW same model as you already have.
WC, so here you have it. I believe in biwiring and techno doesn’t. Waiting for your listening experience. Either way, if you hear differences or not, it is all good with me. Some people know what to listen for, as I feel it is not about having better ears, but more experienced ears. I suppose we can include this topic to all of the voodoo snake oil that I seem to be involved in, such as power cords and fuses. WC, I will not bring it up again, unless you start talking about it, and want my input. Happy listening. Enjoy ! MrD.
Best results will be obtained using a set of WireWorld top of the line jumper cables. If possible unterminated, if ww can make them so.
I don’t care if the Plinius amp has one pair, two pairs, or 32 pairs of terminals behind, it all come from the same bus bar inside the amplifier...they are connected. And one pair of those top of the line WW speaker cables should have enough cross section to handle all the current the Plinius can give and much more.
So it’s not a matter of believing or not believing in this case. It’s the same signal path done differently. So no need to double the WW costly sota speaker cables.
Bi amping is another thing completely, doubling the power with one amp fornthe highs and one amp for the lows. This can make a difference I agree.
I should have mentioned that using jumper cables of the same speaker cable is a good step up for better sound quality. It is a crapshoot that it will sound better. But one that I think is worth trying if you are looking to expand on the sound quality of a high power system. I personally have a cutoff with cables and pricing that I will endure. Money is sometimes better spent getting better main parts of an audio system.
Class D may be the future for some. But I still prefer Class A and it's smoothness. I had a very nice sounding Class D NuPrime STA-9 that worked well with my Martin Logan ESLs. I longed for more power...... but I realized that when I bought my 1st Krell, that Class A and some robust power reserves were just miles better. The NuPrime STA-9 did sound so pure with vocals and instruments though. So there is promise in Class D, and I will not just brush the design off my shoulders. I just find it inferior to the good Class A designs right now.
I see a lot of you mentioning digital eq or a digital front end integrated into systems. I still think an analog preamplifier works better and is needed for a good signal going to the amplifier.
But I would entertain testing a digital EQ with XLR input from the DAC, and then XLR out to the preamp. Sounds silly, I know, and I'm only going by knowledge of how I like to chain things to the amplifier. Same would go for placement of an analog EQ as well.
Get things right and no EQ is needed. I just don't like digital front ends, and for the most part direct from DAC passive volume controls. Transparency is good, but there is a trade off in fullness of the sound. It's sometimes too thin, and also sometimes looses the bass somewhat.
The Plinius amplifier terminals are fed from the same internal bus, so you’re good on this one. I’m somewhat confused about your recommendation to use WW unterminated jumpers. How will WC connect these to the speaker terminals? Seems very unlikely that WW will ever sell such wiring jumper arrangement. The jumpers connecting the speaker binding posts must be removed for bi-wiring. I think the replacing the original ML jumpers by WW jumpers could provide marginal benefits (if any) in a non bi-wired mode. I do not think that ML is providing cheap jumpers on its best speakers. Remains to be proven.
The main idea behind bi-wiring is to improve sound quality by directly feeding a pair of cable the crossover tweeter circuit and another pair connected to the woofer circuit. In a bi-wired system, the power amplifier sees a higher impedance on the tweeter cable at lower frequencies and a lower impedance at high frequencies. The same logic also applies for the woofer cable portion (higher impedance at higher frequencies).
Altough the complete signal gets out of the amp on each terminal, it will split up because of the lower impedance of individual Xover sections seen by the amp. The high frequencies will travel mostly in the loudspeaker pair driving the tweeter circuit and the low frequency will travel mostly on the loudspeaker pair driving the loudspeaker woofer circuit.
How does this improve the sound? There is a large magnetic field generated in the woofer cable when music is flowing. If you split up cables like in bi-wiring, you are reducing magnetic interactions in the cables. So the magnetic field generated in the woofer cable cannot interfere with the high frequency energy in the loudspeaker pair driving the tweeter circuit. Bi-wiring provides better overall resolution without changing the speaker personality.
I am personally using bi-wiring on my rebuilt Apogee Duetta Signature speakers. I tried it a few years ago with MIT cables and Classé DR-9 power amp and no way I was returning to my original wiring setup. It was a very clear improvement.
I’m currently using Acoustic Zen Absolute silver bi-wiring cables fed by Krell FPB-350 MCX monoblocks and love my sound. If your speakers have bi-wired inputs, you should reaaly give bi-wiring a try. I would be surprised if you would not like it.
maplegrovemusic, I recall you saying that you use Exogal amps for your KingSound stats. Which model, and what are the sound characteristics? Lyngdorf makes digital amps, as well as room correction software? And you are correct that class D is not a digital amp. To avoid confusion, they should call it class X or something.
bigddesign3, I had a Nuforce ref 9 SE years ago and loved the fast, incisive complete tonal range. Although the midrange was sometimes cold and sterile, I listened through it because of the exciting clarity. At other times it was warm. Crazy. But one day the Nuforce burned up a transformer in one of my stat speakers. Luckily, I had spare transformers from several samples of the same beloved Audiostatic I collected. I dumped the Nuforce because no matter how great the sound was, it was not worth literally killing the speaker. Despite the Ref status, it was made cheaply.
@viber6 - The only power amp from Exogal is called the Ion PowerDAC which can only be used in conjunction with their Comet DAC. Reports I've read on its sound quality are rating it as exceptional and details on each can be found at the provided links.
@dasign , +1....the point of all of this is still skepticism on the part of techno_dude, or, he has not tried it, or, he tried it and could not hear it. I have read that other factors have a play in why bi wiring makes a difference. Again, all I know, since speakers have become available with multiple pairs of posts, I have heard improvements when bi wiring. If an argument of techno is : a single, better quality speaker cable is better than an inferior set of bi wire speaker cables, I can see that argument. But you and I are talking the same language, that the 4 runs of the higher quality speaker cable, bi wiring, is superior. As you, my ears tell me the truth. Thank you, Enjoy ! MrD.
@mrdecibel, I totally agree with you. Depends on what techno_dude has tried (or not). There are many ways you can do bi-wiring, some better than others.
Most expensive way is to purchase two sets of same cable model/length.
We get the benefit of cable isolation in this scenario.
Another solution is to purchase a prepared bi-wire set, which has one pair of termination on the amp side and two pairs on speaker side. The low frequency and high frequency cables are assembled in separate sheats and running in parallel towards the speaker. This is the type of cable that I have and find them convenient for cable hookup. We also get the benefit of cable isolation in this scenario.
Last solution is single bi-wire, where a single cable with multiple internal conductors has two pair of terminations on speaker end and a single pair on the amp end. While this solution is economical, you loose the magnetic isolation benefit since internal conductors are assembled in same external cable sheath.
dasign +1 have been bi wiring or tri wiring for some 20 years on all speakers. Result the drivers perform better with increased clarity and ease. Sometimes it is subtle sometimes it is significant. Depends on cable length and type.
My only experience with bi-wire was back in the 90's when I used MIT Terminator 2 bi-wire from Krell amp to Martin-Logan Request speakers.
The bass was kind of lacking in that particular model and I feel the bi-wiring did add a little boost--especially to the woofer. The top panel was always exceptional with single or bi-wire.
Curious folks thoughts on the rankings of the amps at the link below as a general guide. Love that the Block Audio Monos are at the top of the list. Pretty sure WC has already perused.
WC, although I can't imagine the amount of work it would entail (which may make it a non-starter), and, of course, the equipment you use for evaluating remains fluid, would such a ranking system (e.g. detail, air, transparency, weight, dynamics, timbre, soundstage width/depth, etc) take away from/add to your qualitative descriptions and comparisons (which we obviously enjoy and find informative as it is)?
Speaking of amplifiers.... I noticed some Audio Research REF 250s and a REF 750 at reasonable pricing. Some day trying a pair of these monoblocks may bring some of the sharp edges of digital music to listenable with less fatigue. Music tracks that would normally be an earsore would open up to a fully listenable experience.
I doubt WC will buy another set of those top of the line Wireworld speaker cables, just to try bi-wiring. Costly bet considering he is still in test mode with the Neoliths and much likely the Plinius amp will not be the last ( and chosen one ) to drive them. Better bet is to go with WW top of the line matching jumpers.
And it would not make sense to add inferior or different model set to the sota one he already owns.
Well, WC did mention that he was going to do bi-wiring testing last week. Not sure if he had the opportunity yet, since he is waiting for the Block Audio monos to arrive.
Since he already invested so much money since the start of his journey, it may not be such an issue to try bi-wiring. Wireworld offers all of their top speaker cables in bi-wiring configuration as an option. He could probably trade his current cables for the bi-wired versions for minimal incremental money.
Hi guys, yes I’ve been doing the biwire test today. That said, do you all remember the term we’ve used here? Was it system matching? Yes it was !!! well, I will share something pretty damn earth shattering here in regards to speaker cables. Stay tuned...
Only thing that will be prooven is that using the stock jumpers is inferior to bi wiring, wich is just plain normal and not disputed.
Removing the stock jumpers from the equation is the first thing I would have done receiving the Neoliths... I would have chosen between next 2 options. First is shotgun configuration speaker cables, second is state of the art jumpers.
Bigdesign: I’ve been told a million times to get the 750se monos which are supposed to be amazing with Neoliths. I just need to do this gradually. I already have massive Monos coming next week or possibly end of this week. As far as the Plinius being it for me: no it isn’t it for me. It will be my go to amp and an awesome back up amps anytime I’m in transition mode. For the time being, the integrateds have been unplugged and dismissed.
WCSS, Sorry I wasn't trying to rush you on the AR amps. Silly me sometimes trolls the AR website looking at the goodies they produce. I get excited easily, as you can see!
Ok men: I’ve been doing biwire over a few days and used wireworld silver 8 on the lows and platinum 7 on the highs. I definitely detected a slight more separation with the instruments. I felt as if certain things popped out of the speaker occasionally but this is very dependent on the song. It’s not something that is very obvious or easy to pick up. You have to look for it and then you will find it. I will say that if you have cables laying around and your equipment allows for it , then do it. Will you hear a day and night difference? Not really but it is a slight improvement over using a single cable. Make no mistake about it.
On another note, I have been trying platinum 7 wireworld cables and silver 8 and to my surprise, I prefer the silver 8 over the platinum 7 with these speakers. The Logans just don’t benefit of the pure silver because it tends to smooth out the highs just too much and with the silver 8 which has some copper, you gain more “in your face” highs that really benefit these speakers. I can’t say for sure with other speakers but with my neoltihs, the silver 8 is better than the platinum 7.
I didn't realize that you were using two different speaker cables. Oh my? I know people will call me crazy (which I could be), but I would still try 2 exact copies of the speaker cable of choice and leave the jumpers in. This will give you double the thickness of energy going thru to the speaker. Will it work? That's up to the fact that if the existing speaker cable is enough gauge transferring power to the speaker. Messing with sending one set to the bottom octaves and another set to the mid to upper octaves could show some type of improvement. I just think that you may be messing with something that the designer had not intended. The designer has not used all types of speaker cable when making these speakers So said effect on bi-wiring using the so-called "right way" may not help. It could hinder the sound field. The point I'm making is that for the most part.... speaker cables really need (IMO) some total gauge that runs close to 8 to 10 guage with a powerful amplifier. Doubling the energy coming to the speaker will not change the full range design, and could have a more powerful and full sounding speaker system. This point is argued with many in the high end audio world. I'm discussing with a cable designer from Morrow Audio quite a few times with his theory, and it is the same as mine. His cables get more insulated single core copper wires each time you go to another level. Having gone up a few levels.... the "sheet" works in a way that everything about the music is more realistic and fuller sounding, along with greater imaging.
A lot of silver with make for a different sound, compared to copper with some silver. Personally I like the sound of copper with some silver much better with my equipment. Money could be spent elsewhere for more sound improvement for the money. I remember when WCSS 1st tried out the Wireworld Platinum speaker cables and didn't like them as much as his existing Wireworld cables. To each is own with these cables that are priced so high that you could buy a car with them. If you can afford it, so be it. I'll take another car please for my driveway. Or darn, it's full already and going out into the street. Never enough cars.
bigdesign3....leaving the jumpers in defeats all concepts and benefits of bi wiring. I am sure your way has a particular sound, 4 wires and the jumpers. In fact, leaving the jumpers in, connecting a pair of cables to the panel connection ( top ),or that same pair to the woofer connection ( bottom ), the sound will change. I appreciate your deswire ( desire, did you like that ? ) to have the thickest speaker cable available.WC, did you change the 2 pairs of wires between the panels and the woofers ? Try it, as it will sound different. Between which of these 2 configurations you prefer, I feel you will continue to hear improvements in the bi wiring, because with the experience of listening, it will just become more obvious those little details. And on the level of the Neos, very obvious. With the mono’s, bi wiring will be more dramatic. Enjoy ! MrD.
bigdesign3, did you ask the Morrow designer why they went from silver coated copper to all copper ?. What I have read recently, since Morrow's beginning is, they have been wrong all of these years. I own many of their older and discontinued cables. Enjoy ! MrD.
I've used bi-wires for years but recently moved to a single wire and same brand high quality jumpers. I use Nordost and that's what they recommend. I have never heard of using bi-wires and leaving the jumpers in...that's a new one for me.
I did not leave the jumpers. I took the jumpers out. I used wireworld silver 8 on the lows and platinum 7 on the highs. Both cables are the same length.
bigddesign3 stated "I didn't realize that you were using two different speaker cables. Oh my? I know people will call me crazy (which I could be), but I would still try 2 exact copies of the speaker cable of choice and leave the jumpers in."
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
