My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
WCSS On the topic of digital EQ, I have to say that I’m a relatively recent convert to Roon but now a big fan of the digital EQ offered. The parametric bands and controls are very flexible and introduce much less time/phase/distortion artifacts than any analogue EQ - and significantly less than an old Rane unit designed for semi pro use. Try going one step further and getting a decent measurement mic and REW software. This way you can “see” what room/speaker issues you have and you can then use this data to guide you for placement of the Neoliths and any possible room treatments. Then you can introduce compensatory curves through the Roon parametric program. This at the very least, brings some scientific methodology to your process and provides some repeatability to your efforts. Even if you determine that a “flat” sound isn’t to your tastes, you still have a reference baseline that you can then overlay your preferred palette to get you one step closer to perfection. You can bet your speakers weren’t design solely by ear, why should you be content to set them up without the benefit of a scientific prochess?
I've heard the same years back with panels and connecting the power straight into the wall. Good catch! I'm interested to hear what you have to say about the Block amps. Also, did I read somewhere that you may try the Ref 250 mono's? I read those are one of the best AR amps ever and with the SE upgrade. I've listened to its little brother the Ref 75 SE and was very impressed with its sound and its power for just 75w. I was thinking if I ever go tubes for power that the Ref 250 would be the place I land. Although, all your talk about the Luxman combo C900/M900 has me really wanting to try that gear out. There's a dealer in Chicago with the little brother M700 offering me a decent deal to try it out. I just have a hard time letting go of my Plinius Class A power on my B&W 801N's......Keep up the testing and listening!
Ability to fine-tune bass and crossover in the speaker
Cons
Expensive
Huge footprint
Require lots of amplification to make them sound their best
Require a medium to large room
Review #2 (mine)
The very best bass i have heard in my room EVER by miles and miles and miles. Did i say i could play the magico and wilson audios all at once ( 4 speakers) and STILL they won’t even come close to the fullness of this speaker? It makes the bass from a wilson or magico sound mediocre.
Huge soundstage: extremely big sound with a level of imaging i have never heard before
Build quality that no other martin logan speaker has ever had.
VERY EXPENSIVE
Huge footprint, but not as big as some may think. i actually feel like the vivid audio g1s looked just as big
Requires lots of amplification? this is an understatement. i have zero doubt that they will require the best tube or class a amps you can afford. Dig deep into your pockets and pull out every single penny you have.
Possibly harder to place than the vivid audio g1s. These speakers "talk to your room" unlike any other speaker.
Watching a movie through these is like being inside your tv. Things just pop out of the speaker in all directions.
As big as they are, they disappear and you remain focused with what they present between them.
ZERO FATIGUE of any kind at any volume level. i cranked them up yesterday to close to 100db and it sounded as if a 747 was taking off. Oh, i also dozed off while they were playing for hours at loud volumes. My ears remained comfortable no matter what the volume was.
They tend to sound their best when cranked up (could also that they need either a class a or tube amp to sparkle more)
If you love Beryllium tweeters, this speaker or any electrostatic speaker may not be your cup of tea in regards to the high frequencies (they will sound warmer) No other speaker sparkles as good as Beryllium tweeter does. However, If you love soft dome tweeters, this speaker will reward in ways that soft dome tweeters can’t.
@whitecamaross you are obviously hung up on how much something costs. Lots of amplification does not have to mean expensive. Why are you so hung up on cost.you always state that upfront.as if it means everything...it doesn’t. Many here have tried to express that to you..but you don’t get it. The Tekton speakers from 3k to 12k will come much closer ,if not surpass what you have tried at much less cost. Read the reviews. At least 7 or 8 reviewers at Stereotimes own the Tekton encores or ulfberhts as their reference speakers. Lots of other speakers and amps out there that perform as well or better than what you have or have tried for much less! Cost does not = performance! Maybe someday when you are more experienced you will understand it. Maybe ..???
WC, Although playing with spikes, tilt, powercords is useful, the most important thing you have done is tone controls. I can illustrate why use of more flexible EQ either analogue or digital will give you much further enhancements by giving a numerical analogy. 1 is the worst sound such as barely perceptible music from a distant analog radio station with 90% distortion. 100 is perfect live sound from the best seat. Nobody has achieved 100 in their audio system. With the world's best (WB) preamp and power amp without tone controls, you can only get to 40. Call the best DAG preamp and power amp without tone controls 38. Your Momentum integrated without tone controls used is 36. But with the tone controls the way you like it you are now a giant 14 ft basketball player with double the height and double the audio level at 80. In other words, there is no WB amp and preamp without tone controls that can equal what you now have..The tone controls on the Dag are rudimentary but still good enough to show you the absolute necessity of them. The tone control circuit is another circuit, so even though that is a minor disadvantage, the benefits vastly outweigh that factor. With a much more flexible stand-alone EQ there is admittedly another circuit in the chain, just as with the Dag integrated, but the ability to fine tune the tone control is of extradordinary benefit. If you like tweeking now, just wait until you try a dedicated EQ with the WB preamp and amp. Then you will achieve a 90. When you build a larger better room, the EQ settings will change. If you listen to a quieter piece of music where you don't need much of the additional gain of a preamp, you can use the Rane with its 6 dB gain from balanced inputs/outputs with only the WB power amp, and achieve a 95. How about that? Maybe the digital EQ's are better, and then you can get more. Exciting!!
grey9hound: so what you are saying is that if you have a Bugatti Veyron in your garage right now, 16 cylinders, $10,000 for an oil change, $50k for all 4 tires, etc, etc, you then would be ok going to a Honda Civic with a turbo engine because the tires are cheap, it puts out 700 hp hp, and it can also go 200mph per hour like the Veyron right? (although it would take the civic about 3 hours to get up to 200mph) Nobody said expensive stuff is what is needed. I simply said that this speaker needs quality amplification and through my experience with many amps, these amps are never cheap. It was only implying that these speakers take quality amplification the same way a Porsche GT needs the crazy expensive tires to be able to go what it does or else you will be spinning tires each time you put the pedal to the metal. I am somewhat "spinning tires" right now until i try more current, more wattage. I tried this exercise with the vividi audio g1s already.
I am curious as to what songs or Artists have you played on the Neoliths . Have you tried all kinds of music ? Anything that stands out ? Surely you have played much more than just Dire Straits? Do they sound good with all kinds of music or are they suited to certain types ?
grey9hound, I totally agree. Speaking of cost, although you are pleased with your sophistcated room correction system, you can achieve much more in the entire frequency range with the cheap Rane ME 60 EQ at $200 used. Maybe its analog circuits are technically cruder than digital, but it is so infinitely flexible that using only your ears as a tool, you can achieve wonderful results. Even though I have promoted objectivity in certain areas, ultimately we are out to please ourselves, not write a PhD thesis or file for a patent, etc.
I agree that it would probably help (Rane) but i use the EQ in JRiver Media Center which works very well. I mostly leave it flat, but when needed i can adjust
Something that I have noticed with interconnects (XLR/RCA) and speaker wire is that SILVER can be too much of a good thing, and brings out more treble and makes it brighter. I'm still a believer in COPPER with silver soldering at connections. To me, the sound is fuller. And it brings back a bit of the analog balance to a system, especially using digital files. Too bright a sound is just not the way the artist has intended for you to hear their music.
Currently I am using Morrow Audio MA5 XLRs (mid level) and Morrow Audio MA5 SPIDF from my Tascam CD Transport. I feed USB from an Audioquest Diamond cable (15ft) to a USB Bridge (femto clock system) Singxer SU-1. The Singxer SU-1 is a very much needed upgrade for USB coming from a computer. My connection from the USB Bridge to the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 DAC is thru AES/EBU (also Audioquest Diamond cable). I cannot over stress how much the USB Bridge Singxer SU-1 opens up the sound with superior femto clocks. Took my system up the audiophile chain in spades. I see many of the top DACs now with a Femto Clock system box ahead of the actual DAC itself. The stuff just is a game changer.
Now speaker cables are something that I want to explore in the future. Currently I'm using 8 gauge twisted and stranded OFC Copper cables that I have terminated myself. I have used these cables for many applications in the past, and find that the strong current of my Krell amps mate quite well. I have seen speaker cables overheat with not enough gauge. Within the next 6 months, I am going to try the Morrow Audio speaker cables. They are many strands of thin insulated solid copper wire. Depending on your budget, you can get 432 solid copper wires Morrow Audio SP5, or for some more cash 864 solid copper wires (SP7 model). Once broken in, the sound is up there with the expensive cables. There are also Grand Reference and 10 year anniversary models of this solid core insulated copper for the large wallet types.
I'm hoping that the speaker cable upgrade may bring up another notch of great sound. I just love Morrow Audio XLRs, I can tell you that they are perfect for my system. Worth a shot at under $500 for a pair with their coupon and a set of old cables that I would send to them for a lot of money off.
Next tweak will be to remove any cabinets behind the Neoliths. I want the walls behind the speakers to be empty with the exception of the tv. Greyhound: Diana Krall, Karen Souza, Sarah Mclachlan, Santana, the cars, lynyrd skynyrd, etc etc etc. How do they sound? They sound best with electronic music with tons of bottom end. Think deadmau5, tiesto, Calvin Harris, etc. That type of music sounds like I’m at the live concert. Incredible to say the least.
I would also concur about electronic music with Martin Logan. The absolute speed of ESL panels show off "big time" with that type of music. If you have proper bass too....... OMG. Take that dynamic woofers and tweeters!
Try some Bela Fleck, Keb Mo’, Jing Chi, Melvin Taylor and the Slack band ( He will be standing in front of you ) Huge Soundstage on that one Try that Ayon Audio Cd I sent you. .....crank it up :) . It has a lot of good ones .Tin Pan Alley (SRV) ,Bela Fleck, ETC.It is Worth a listen Mushroom Jazz 6 for sure Oh You Absolutely MUST hear the Kruder &Dorfmeister K&D Sessions .Then... Cranked UP I sent it to you ... so you have it Also that Nightmares on Wax should be really good .. gotta crank it a bit !
The Cars: Dangerous Type....the last two minutes of the song crank it up and follow the changing drum lead..the drums are all over the place bouncing around and slapping my brain!!
So guys, I removed 2 cabinets that were behind the panels And the highs are way different now. They have more detail and sparkle. Time... I’ve said it, seat time. Now I need to now get ready for the wife to come to me and go off that there are 2 cabinets in the middle of the living room that I need to put back where they were but I don’t know how to tell her I don’t want to... I may end up sleeping inside the crates of the Neoliths tonight.
Someone please block the word Rane from this thread. It has no place in this discussion. Is there some click pay system for that word to the author? Enough already!
@gtaphile...viber6 owns the Rane, in place of a high quality line stage preamp, and his ears, system, experience and welcomed commentary here by wc and others, have no problem with it. I too have one, and it was viber that created my curiosity to pull it out of the closet and give it another go. Was not bad as a line stage. I modified mine to eliminate all of the chassis and circuit board resonances typical with pro eqs, and to me, made a huge improvement in sq over stock. I have had many eqs in my day, and the Rane is special, imo ( in use only as an eq ). BTW, Rane is the company that developed the " Interpolating Constant - Q filters ".Turns out, in my main system, I still do not need an eq, and prefer my Luminous Audio passive unit, but unless you tried it as a line stage, you have no right to request the " block the word Rane " from here. As I said, no one else has the problem you do. Besides, this thread has a lot of talk about equalization as of late. Enjoy ! MrD.
The Roon parametric equalizer is perfect if you need equalization ......not some decades old mid grade sound stage gear. Might as well throw in Teckton speakers into the conversation too Lol. Yeah......you don’t need that Veyrun when you have a Dodge Challenger in the garage.
Say what you want, because I can guarantee you, dguitarnut, that you never used the Rane ME60 ( or a pair of ME30s ) as a line stage, in place of a 5K line stage preamp. And if you did, you certainly would not be making the comments you are making. As far as Tekton, I never heard the DIs or above, but am aware that there are many individuals who have changed from much more expensive speakers to Tekton, stating their greater listening enjoyment. And, those that upgrade, stay with Tekton. Once again, opinion, which I appreciate, and makes these threads interesting. Enjoy ! MrD.
IME, home eqs ( such as a Luxman you mentioned previously ) might measure better than the Rane, but they have inferior circuit board layout, inferior components, many non discreet components ( chips ), and a much smaller power supply. Admittedly, the units are very resonant tin cans ( as most all pro eqs ), but I took care of that. Enjoy ! MrD.
I'm in total agreement with taking out the resonance of a piece of equipment. My Schiit Freya tube preamp is improved a lot with putting it on spikes. Now solid as a rock, keeping the 4 tubes and electronics without vibration. Also as mrdecibel has described, good power supplies and discreet components are tantamount to having a solid analog output. I have the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 Preamp/DAC. And there is a power supply upgrade (Alchemy PS5 $599). The thing weighs 9 pounds, and is a game changer. Here is an explanation of what a good power supply can do (Alchemy PS5). There's no denying the importance of a properly designed power supply circuit. "Inside the PS-5 are two separate, regulated power supplies: one for
analog circuits, the other for digital and control circuits, which
provide each the unique power qualities required to maximize their
performance. These discrete supplies are routed into the DDP-1
(DAC/Preamp/Headphone Amp) through a special multi-pin connector on the
rear of the unit for easy connectivity. Additionally, the AC-to-DC
conversion is performed inside the PS-5 to prevent interference with the
sensitive analog audio circuits inside the DDP-1. A balanced supply
with separate analog and digital/control feeds, separate positive and
negative rails for analog circuits, and large banks of storage
capacitors for better filtering and improved dynamics."
In reference to the RANE EQ.... I think that EQ works. Some systems will sound dramatically better, and be absolutely necessary with some rooms. You could have all the best equipment, but the room or synergy of components are holding you back. A good EQ will bring the music to how it was intended to be, and it will be wonderful. I personally prefer an analog EQ like the RANE over digital EQ. I have not tested the
miniDSP SHD Series, but it could be a game changer for DSP. I know that the company is at the bleeding edge of DSP technology. Here is a link https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-series Hope this helps. Not everyone has the perfect room.
Actually I had the then top rated in its price class Tekton Lore Reference speakers and I assure you the Harbeths at 4 times the price that I replaced them with, and the Magicos at 24X their price are substantially better. Better in audio is a diminishing returns proposition always. There is no way any Tekton can compete with the class of speakers WC is listening to. Sorry but as much as we would all like a 3K speaker to kill these 35 to 80K speakers it’s not going to happen. And while on the subject of Rane would you really want a $600 piece of anything in your audio chain when WC is agonizing swapping probably 1 to 3 thousand dollar each power cords and Cables? Really? And you keep bringing it up?
@dguitarnut I coudnt have said it better myself.... been trying to say that you can’t expect for a Honda Civic to give you the same experience as a Bugatti veyron just because it can go 200 mph, it can go in reverse and make u turns. Just a totally different class and to your point, no speaker worth 10k can compete with speakers costing 4 times their price. Sure, it can show you how good it is given its price and also show you the law of diminishing returns in spades but nobody said that the extra money you spend is equivalent to the performance gained. They are not proportionate to each other.
Youve stated a couple times that the bass of the Neoliths are (way) better than the Wilsons and the Magico. Don’t you think that’s a product of the specific models of each of these speakers that you’ve owned. I would think that the Neolith with a 15” and a 13” woofer has a better chance of beating out a Wilson with two 8” woofers such as the Sasha’s.
I currently own the Maxx 2’s, comprised of a 12” and 10” (which doesn’t even approach what you’ve got in the Neolith) and I feel like the bass is a very strong point on the speaker.
If you every have the opportunity to move up the Wilson line, perhaps the bass response would fall more in line with what your hearing now. Although, I’m not sure the Alexia will get you there (disclaimer: I have not heard the Alexia). After all, there’s no replacement for displacement.
dguitarnut, Please open your mind to the fact that more expensive often doesn’t buy better sound. Yes, more expensive buys better parts, etc. But if the designer doesn’t listen or has questionable musical background/experience, a more musically perceptive designer can come up with better results using cheaper parts than an inferior designer with expensive parts.. For dynamic speakers, I happen to like the concept of the Tekton DI speaker where lots of tweeters can cover the lower part of the midrange. Small tweeters have more accuracy than larger drivers. Of course, the output from a small tweeter is limited, so the design of the Tekton enables satisfactory dynamics with more accuracy than the conventional dynamic speaker design. Good thinking doesn’t cost more than bad thinking. I would challenge anybody to beat my $2000 Mytek Brooklyn amp in a blind A/B of their super duper expensive amp. I will win in most but not all cases. My Rane (new $600) without EQ engaged will beat most far more expensive line stages, as noted by me and mrdecibel. Open your mind. Then add the EQ, or even use a more rudimentary tone control as WC is doing with the Neo, and you have a situation where the Neo without EQ is vastly inferior to the Neo when used with the EQ. You could get the world’s best million buck amp and preamp without EQ, and the Neo still won’t sound as good as with my Rane and the Mytek amp for small change. LEARN.
brhatten, You raise interesting points about bass from larger versus smaller drivers. Of course, larger woofers are capable of more output and deeper response, but it is difficult to get speed and accuracy from large more massive woofers. You might be in the sweet spot with fairly large 10" and 12" woofers, executed optimally. Big enough to get decent output and extension, and still get good speed. If you desire dynamics and accuracy of bass, there is nothing like a bass horn.
Viber: i can assure you there’s nothing slow about the 15 inch drivers in the Neolith. I have the best mid bass and low end oomph I’ve ever experienced from any of my former speakers. The Neolith has shown me how “not so good” the bass was from my previous speakers. I bet you if I brought back the magico s5 or Sasha 2s right now and played some reggae, I’d be wondering if the woofers were stolen out of the cabinets.
Let’s not forget, do you really think Martin Logan would use subpar/slow drivers that can not keep up with the panel in the their statement Neolith? I’m sure they thought about this in the 2 years that this speaker took to design.
Viber6 open your mind that your $2000 Mytek with probably a $100 dollar power cord no way could hold its own against a D’agostino when just his power cords are as much as your entire setup? Really? When other speaker designers look at that Tekton DI I bet they laugh their butts off......wow. You really need to reign in the nonsense
Does the Roon do EQ in all freq? How do I find out about the Roon?
Viber6, yes the Roon parametric seems to accommodate any frequency I can throw at it. It is incredibly flexible and beneficial in my system. I only use a single band of EQ: 3db of cut centred at 600 Hz with a Q of 1.0. This is a pretty mild curve but makes a huge difference in my system/room configuration. For info on Roon, the Absolute sound has just published a fairly comprehensive article today on their website, check it out
@dguitarnut You are the one who needs to reign in the Nonsense. Tekton Lore is nowhere near the Double Impact, Encore,or Ulfberht .You need to open your mind . Have you heard the Double Impact , Encores ,or Ulfberhts ? Those are the Tekton speakers that could compete. Power cord cost doe not equal performance either. You guys kill me with the "This cost 4 times more so it is better " thinking.. TOTALLY WRONG WC, you can’t say you know how they perform until you try them. You can think you do , but you would be wrong . ! Eric Alexander is laughing all the way to the BANK !!
Greyhound, i understand your point. That said, I don’t have any interest in tekton because once I’m tired of them, I’ll have to dump them with bulk trash in my neighborhood. I won’t be able to sell those things at all. Again, I don’t buy any brands that can be bought directly from the manufacturer. I don’t buy axiom, emotiva, svs, etc. Why ? Because I would be paying the same you, my dog, and everyone else pays for those things so once I’m done, No matter how good they are, they won’t be the last speaker i stay with. Sure, am I interested to hear them? Yes I am. Yes I know they do an in home trial but I’m not really the type to take advantage of that if I know all I want is to hear them with zero intentions of keeping them.
I have read this entire thread, but missed one thing. In all these discussions of audio at the high end, no one ever speaks of vinyl and turntables as a source.
I was contemplating adding a turntable into my system to be able to enjoy some of my albums that have been in storage for 30 years.
I am not trying to create contoversy about costs and relative merits of tone arms, cartridges, etc. Just curious about the lack of discussion regarding this source.
As an FYI, I had no problem selling used Tekton speakers. Same for others trading up the Tekton line. Great speakers for sure and becoming more and more popular.
Ihasaguy: I don’t really have the space to store vinyl and although I would love to venture into thess types of recordings, it’s just not convenient enough for me
Techno: if you are looking for dynamic, slam, and easy to drive then look into Wilson. They don’t demand amplifiers like magicos. Wilson Sasha 2 would be a speaker I could own again and just add a sub in my room. Nothing startled me more in terms of dynamics more than Wilson did.
dguitarnut, Yes, I know how difficult it is to break long held beliefs, but the listening is everything. Listen for yourself. Yes, my cheap Mytek with a cheap stock power cord will beat most expensive amps with any expensive power cord, within its power range of about 300 watts. Not all, which is why I eagerly await the Merrill Element amps. It's all about new technologies. The Mytek does a heck of a job with class D Pascal modified modules. The Merrills promises to be ground breaking in their use of custom designed modules using Ghz bandwidth GaN transistors. And the stereo 114 may be 99% as good as the 118 monos except for less power, at one third the price. I don't criticize anyone to whom $36K is small change. Good for them. But I think most posters here wouldn't consider spending $36K, but they would be very interested in considering a close to SOTA amp for $9-12K. But listening is everything, and I reserve judgment on whether even the relatively cheap 114 is worth the money, until I get a chance to listen to a broken in unit.
lhasaguy..Last year I purchased a Pro-ject Xtension 12 TT with Palo Santos cartridge and I have to say that analog is back with a vengeance in my house.
This thread obviously is about amps....and evolved into speakers...and other types of stuff thrown in. Can any say "equalizers"?
My biggest question to whitecamaross is "what is the primary source"
Is it streaming into an esoteric dac?
I think what seems to be ignored in this thread is, incredibly, what exactly is and how good is the source ?
I do streaming also at my house of course. It's fun and easy and you can choose an infinite amount of songs from Tidal,etc.
But, my setup only sounds as good as its' source. I use a Meridian 808 reference cd player along with my analog setup.
INMHO, my analog and digital sources are astounding. I never do critical listening when streaming is involved. or a pc or laptop or tablet etc,----no sir, I do not trust it to send the best musical signal to my preamp.------garbage in garbage out.
I would hope that with all the effort the WC puts into his setup that the source matches his other components in state-of-the-art-ness.
I have read much hear about streaming. I know in my case, I have many sources.
1. Turntable/Arm/Cartridge: TriangleArt Maestro/Jelco setup, and also my trusted SOTA Star vacuum TT/SME IV/Sumiko Blackbird, through Audio Research REF 2SE phono stage.
2. Pioneer Elite BDP09 FD player that I use as a CD transport. (outstanding)
3. Naim Unitiserve music server
The digital signals go into an Audio Research DAC8. Then everything into an Audio Research REF6.
I can tell you that yes, albums can be a pain at times, with the cleaning and getting up. But, listening through the music server the sound is wonderful. Full, rich, open, dimensionality, etc. Through the BDP09, same disc and the music is better. I've had several servers and the CD transport beats each and every one. I know, bits are bits. I'm an Electrical Engineer and .... no they aren't.
But, when I want serious listening, it is the analog rig. Wow. Don't get me wrong, digital has come a long way and my setup is wonderful. But, the same recordings played on analog rig is just there.
But, like with anything high end. To start in the analog realm takes some trial and error and some doing and quite honestly, I don't blame people for not trying.
Digital and streaming is much easier does sound great.
Younger people are getting seriously into vinyl and that is great.
I have kept up with WhiteCamaros' journey from the start. It has been fun.
It is not possible in this scenario but, the real X factor I've noticed is that the majority of the time a piece of equipment be it amp or speaker or pre-amp is being demo'd using different equipment. Speakers demo'd now are not played using the same equipment as the earlier speakers were. Same is true for amps, etc. So, it is difficult to determine if it is totally the speakers that are causing the difference in sound or a combination of equipment.
in any case, it would be nice if an analog rig was added. but, this is fun non-the-less.
I've heard them three times with DAG electronics, Audio Research and I forgot the other electronics and I found them to be great. no high end roll off. Bass was not exaggerated but nice. Open, airy, sound stage was great. Hard to drive, but what electrostatics isn't?
How much are these today?
With the 11s,13s and 15s for high end, people get good choices. Then add the Neoliths and they compete very well with the top speakers. Fun would be direct A/B comparisons with the same electronics and music with Neolith, Vandersteen 7's, and other top speakers.
I've heard the Vandersteen 7's with Audio Research REF 250 SE amps/REF 10 pre-amp and the system absolutely disappeared. I've also heard them with the Vandersteen amps and they were just as impressive.
But, now costs becomes a major factor. I don't know the upper limits of WC's budget, but he is slowly going up the ladder. Which makes this even more fun.
I definitely agree with brhatten and grey9hound, with regards to the apples to oranges comparisons that are being made. Comparing the bass of the Sasha 2 to the Neolith is exactly that - apples to oranges. And the Tekton Lore doesn’t even have near the 7 tweeter array, which is what should be compared to some of these speakers.
brhatten mentioned that you can’t say you know how they will will perform until you try them. I agree completely.
Question for WC: If someone were to bring over a pair of Tektons (like the Double Impact SE’s, Encores, or Ulfberht Be’s that brhatten suggested) and they blew away the Neo’s, would you want to keep them? If yes, then you fit the concept of buying them on a trial.
I suspect I know the answer. The goal for WC is not a final destination - it’s all about the journey. Therefore, when buying Tektons , it is imperative that he be able to get at least most of his money back when selling them later. He’s probably researched the market and has found that the resale is not great. Therefore, WC is just being honest when he says he will never try Tektons.
The only alternative is to buy a used pair of Tektons, for which one could sell for nearly the same amount. There happens to be a used pair of upgraded Double Impacts (1/2 way to an SE) available on A’gon right now for a lower price. This might be a way to try Tektons without the risk.
Its interactive abilities, great sound and the ability to use EQ if you need it makes it a must have for me. I’m hoping it will work with the new music streaming service about to debut in the US (hopefully next month) called Qobuz. Similar to Tidal but with more Hi-Rez (24/96 & 24/192) files to choose from..they say over 2 million Hi-Rez titles! With a better jazz and classical selection than Tidal.
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