My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Unfortunately, the Wilson speakers are out :-( They cannot be bi-amped. I still am looking forward to whitecamaross getting a pair of Alexia's in and what he has to say about them. I've only read good things about them and would like to have a pair in our home - while series II would be nice, I'm confident series I makes beautiful music. Fed Ex is delivering our front end electronics today (Meridian 861v8 and 800 transport), they were out for repair / upgrade - so my family and I are eager to listen to music again.
Mrdecibel, when I say “ I can live with this equipment and be done” I mean that it is a great sounding piece that doesn’t really make me miss the superior components I’ve owned. It means that I feel it is a well rounded component but I don’t mean to say it is better than everything else ive owned. Through my journey, I’ve learned to identify those more “affordable “ components that I could be happy with if I had to create a more affordable set up in a smaller place. The gryphon Diablo is essentially one of these components. it is full bodied, big soundstage and it can drive a lot of speakers out there. It showed me what an integrated is capable of and it killed my idea of “integrated amplifiers aren’t good”. That’s far from the truth. As a matter of fact, do you know WHY many manufacturers don’t build expensive integrateds? Because most people want real estate when they spend big money. Most people want to see monoblocks and a preamplifier if they are going to spend big money even if the same manufacturer was to build an integrated that has the same topology as their amps and preamps and it sounded the same as separates. Imagine if gryphon made an integrated that was the collesseum amp and pandora preamp? Nobody would want it even if it was half the price and yet it sounded no different than separates. Why? Too much money that people don’t want to spend just for one component. The mometum integrated is a s200 amp with the momentum preamp. That said, it has one thing going for it which is that it looks like nothing else out there and this alone keeps it being a desired item for many. Hell, I had a dealer asking me to sell it to him once I’m done so he can post it on his site so he can get traffic which allows him to make more sales of other products. Make no mistake that Dan knew he wanted a component that not only sounded good but that also stood out from the rest and let me tell you it DOES stand out. Am I a fan? I’m a fan of what he did throughout his entire career. Bottom line, there are a few affordable components that I can highly recommend for those of you can’t go to the ultra high end stuff. Make no mistake that these aren’t better but they give you a great taste of what is above them.
techno_dude, Thanks for your passion. As Abe Lincoln said, "with malice toward none," I like RIAA's passion, but he simply needs to have more respect for others. No need for calling attention to typo and grammar errors or correct English usage. We all make these mistakes. Then his knowledge and experience can be enjoyed more. Dignified discussions about contrary opinions are always fruitful. Guidocorona is really good at that.
WC, Yes, Dag has good sound and great appearance. However, my guess is that you want the best possible sound for the money, which is usually seen with modest looking black box types. All this SOTA stuff tends to be very expensive, and it pays to prioritize sound vs looks. You got a previous model of the BAT for a bargain, and I look forward to hearing whether you think the Dag gives you more sound to justify the huge amount of money. And the BAT still looks good, just not the Hope Diamond of Dag, HA HA. And I'm sure even the Dag doesn't compare to your wife in looks. Buy her a few thousands worth of fine outfits, and you will admit that beauty is more appreciated on her than on the floor stuff.
WC , you really got to try one of the new Shunyata NR power cords on your integrateds. You will ear things in your recordings you didn’t know were there, I guarantee it. Since I have had mine 1 week ago, I’ m totally astonished. If you dont’ have access to a dealer near you, heck I can send you mine and buy another one for myself.
Not saying WW signal cables are inferior to Shunyata. But I ´m pretty sure they are beaten on power. You will resale you WW power cables, or I’ m going to hell. Lol
On my Lux 900u, it is doing things I never thought it could do.... bass from nowhere, cymbals are more nuanced, noise floor is a black hole, details that were previously lost far in the soundstage are now revealed.
Right On! I, for one, am looking forward to WC getting around to testing cables and power cords. The Wireworld Electra Silver 7 is certainly no slouch. It would be an interesting shoot-out between WW and Shunyata NR power cords. Happy Listening!
techno_dude, I love my Shunyata Venom HC power cords. I prefer them to the Sigma HC which had a more laid back sound. The new NR series is intriguing. Have you compared the $300 Venom HC to any of the NR series? I still encourage you to try the Denali, which I think makes MUCH more difference than any power cord. Right now, I am in the doghouse at Music Direct because of more returns than completed purchases, even though my sales were substantial and they probably sold a lot of my returns as demos. They want to impose a 20% restocking fee on future purchases if returned. Then I might as well look on the used market. WC's business model makes sense, although he is a high roller.
Viber, No I haven`t tried the Venom HC yet. I might do it as you suggest to find out. I believe that the filtering job is done in your Denali , so maybe you just don`t need it into the powercords...wich could make the sound too much filtered and laid back.
I already have an Alpha digital on my dac/preamp wich is I like a lot. The specific noise filter built in makes wonders on my dac. It seems that filter is a ''more gentle one'' than that wich is in the Delta NR.
If you prefer the more upfront HC Venom to a Sigma HC, I doubt you would like the NR line because they say it perform very much alike the older Sigma analog/HC line.
Well I will update you all tonight about a preliminary shootout of the gryphon vs momentum. I am using some cheap revel gem2 on stands. Yes don’t laugh, I also had these in the garage somewhere. The olympica 2s have departed my home today. Preliminary update coming to you all soon.
Ok guys, so after many weeks and countless nights of deciding what would replace my s5mk2, I considered many options. I was very very close to pulling the trigger on a pair of Alexia 2s but the store blew the sale due to their demeanor so I walked away (glad I did). My heart was set on a pair of Alexia 2s simply because I wanted to see what they were capable of. I felt like the Alexia 1 was old news although still a worthy contender. I then had a chance to get a pair of magico m3s and the day I was going to pay for them I was told by the store who had been trying to sell them for about 4 months that someone else had bought them the same day I called to pay for them. So, I was bummed out and felt like if something doesn’t happen for you then there’s a reason for it. No need to force things. I then had a few conversations with several people and dealers and the stars finally aligned, we agreed to terms and price so I am now the proud owner of Martin Logan Neolith. :) i read so much on these and had (still do) many people who belittle their capabilities. However, I just couldnt believe it. I mean I remember owning the Martin Logan renaissance and living with them the longest out of any speaker. I actually owned the 15a twice. So how can the Neolithi be a failure? Just doesn’t make any sense. The so called “small sweet spot” is something I never really detected so I never thought of it. I listen to music alone so how can a “small sweet spot” affect me? yes guys, im back to my roots with panels. I also felt like the fact that these are passive woofers is a great thing because I’ll be able to really see what amplifiers are made of. This speaker drops to 0.5 ohms at 20khz. I will be taxing the hell out of amplifiers with it. This speaker will be an excellent tool by which I can judge amplifiers. I don’t care to listen to the bs that some have said about this speaker. The only person whose comment I can take into consideration would be the person who owned it And lived with it. I can’t go by what people heard at shows. Shows are sometimes pure bs. First, there’s a bunch a chairs and people in front of you. Second, half the time they play elevator music or music that is played at a spa while you are getting a facial. Lastly, I want to really know what this beast will sound like in my room, with my music, my front end and I simply DO NOT believe these speakers will disappoint. PERIOD. IF the 15a Logan’s didn’t disappoint then why the hell would these me inferior? i went all out and selected the best speaker Martin Logan makes today and I’ve owned pretty much all of their current electrostatics with the exception of the Neolith. It was time for me to catapult this journey to something I didn’t think I would own. You all WILL KNOW from MY EXPERIENCE whether these are worth their price tag or not. Forget what others who only heard it a shows have to say.
WCSS, Congrats. I am so happy for you to try these babies out. I'm sure when you have the right electronics behind them, that they will blow away the ML 15a speakers. Good luck. I'm also sure that when your company comes, that low level listening will bear much fruit as well. Great choice. You would always wonder about them anyway. Now that you have had the Magicos, you can really decide what you want out of a speaker.
techno_dude - I'm a Wilson owner, for decades with over $72k invested (stereo and home theater with a major priority on stereo). So, I'm admitting that I'm Wilson biased when I say this: Martin Logins are a special speaker, I've heard the 15's.
They were paired with a Rel sub-woofer and I was stunned with the dramatic improvement in imaging the Rel sub-woofer made. With the right music, I was very impressed with this pairing - very. While I'm eager for Alexia II's, I'm baited to read whitecamaross describing his Neoliths. Fed Ex left us a note yesterday, couldn't leave our Meridian delivery because no one was home to sign. Delivery is due back today, can't wait to get our system operational.
techno_dude, Thanks for your Shunyata NR feedback. The Denali really is unique--it is NOT a conventional filter with inductors, caps. Just proprietary materials that somehow absorb noise without affecting the audio range. The resulting sound is sharper, clearer, more focused. Like the Venom HC magnified many times. By the way, my 40 year experience has shown that more focused, accurate sound is associated with smaller, narrowed images. Many people enjoy fatter imaging, but this is not accurate. My first experience of this was when I switched from a Van Alstine modified Dyna Stereo 70 tube amp to an excellent SS JVC 7050 Super A amp. The Dyna had fatter sound that I misinterpreted as more dynamic and lifelike, but the JVC was clearly more revealing. The fatter sound is like chicken fat surrounding the meat. The chicken fat represents distortion around the pure meat. The Denali's focused sound actually narrows the image. But the effect is balanced over all the frequencies, so it doesn't create a spitty, wiry sound. It is just more accurate and natural, period. I really think you will enjoy it.
WC, I got confused because you said recently that your new speakers have efficiency of 86-87 dB, but the Neo is 91 dB or so. Doesn't matter. The sound is what counts.
I have owned various Martin-Logan models for decades. I have the 15A's now.
I,personally,have never come across a conventional speaker (or Magnepans) that could take the place of Martin-Logans in my listening room. Especially in similar price ranges.
They have an addicting sound I will never let go of.
You might have reached the pinnacle in your speaker search with the NEOLITHS.
I have never heard them ,so, as a lifelong fan of this brand I am especially looking forward to this review.
WC Congrats on the Neoliths. I've heard them a couple of times at my dealer. He was one of, if not the first, US dealer to have them. I heard them with an all Mac front end. The 1.25kw monos and C1100 preamp. That setup blew me away. To be fair, the previous speaker I was listening to was the Focal 1038BE II, so no where near the same league. But the bass in the Neoliths was so damn tight I swear the dealer had the JL F113 sub going. It was just amazing. But the dynamics of those things, man. Listening to Norah Jones on those Neoliths simply blew my mind. The sweet spot, while still "small", is not nearly as bad with these as with other electrostatics from ML that he had. I can't wait to hear your impressions with your front end compared to the Mac front end I heard them with. Yours is far superior.
Neolith is 87db based on the actual measurements. Not an easy to drive speaker. The color is black gloss. I didn’t get the gorgeous red because when it’s time to part ways I’ll hear potential buyers complain about the color being too loud. Black gloss is a color that nobody has issues with. Although I did want to try the Alexia 2s, I couldn’t work a deal with the dealer and they were too rude. Maybe in the future I’ll try Alexia 2. The Neolith should be something special. I don’t think I’ll be disappointed and I say this simply because I’ve owned many electrostatics and not once have I been dissatisfied.
Mikepaul: your 15a is an awesome speaker. I always have flashbacks of that speaker. Just crazy detailed and a 3D effect that always sounded jaw dropping to me. The 15a is really the reason why I am going to the Neolith. That speaker was so good that my mind wants to hear how much better the Neolith will be. Unfortunately, there are not many Neolith owners that can speak about it. I believe that there are less than 50 pairs of Neoliths around the world which is WHY you don’t see then listed here. The only time one pair listed was a pair from Europe which really doesn’t count. Not one pair has ever been listed domestically EVER and these speakers have been out for about 4 years now. This will always protect the resale value of this item and as I was told by Martin Logan, the. Neolith won’t be replaced for at least 10 years or more.
WC, Congrats. One of the points I made in my last post, was that you are an audio equipment junkie. Stating you ordered the black finish so it would be easier to sell, leads me to believe, you will never stop. You are already thinking of moving them, without receiving them yet. I am not trying to sound negative. I sold equipment, and advised and consulted with clients, for so many years, that I feel I know the trends in people. I am not judging you, as you are on a mission, and again, you are not alone.. My prediction with the Monoliths ( and keep in mind, I heard them only one time, briefly, in a showroom, and have owned a few pair of ML, with familiarity with many models ), that these will blow you away, at first, and maybe for a while, but will ultimately not be the speaker for you. Electrostatics do not provide that " fullness and body " that you like ( and I am sure some people will disagree with me ). But again, enjoy your journey. What are your thoughts of the two integrated amps ? When you decide to have an audio garage sale, I will gladly drive from central Florida to attend, with checkbook in hand. ( never know ). Again, Enjoy ! MrD.
Viber6, I have the Rane currently connected to another system, replacing a highly modified RGR preamp, and the Rane is cleaner and smoother ( the RGR is tubey for a ss pre ), and this is with the controls all set to flat. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel, I am glad you are enjoying the Rane in another system. Your gain, my loss. I love my Rane, but I just wanted to hear what you have done to it to improve it. We agree that merely as a line stage, the Rane is excellent. Take the opportunity to experiment with it using the EQ to tailor the 2nd system to anything musically enjoyable. You will agree that the line stage is great, second only to your Luminous and perhaps some very pricey active line stages, but using the EQ intelligently is a game changer, with only a little bit of effort. The music is worth it. That's why we musicians train for years to polish our craft.
Wilson will have to wait. The Neolith was a much harder acquisition for me. The Alexia 2 will be on the used market soon. Techno, you sound like you already know the Neolith is going to demolish the mágicos lol. Is this why you are requesting for the Alexia 2s ? I’d be shocked if the Neoliths don’t blow away anything else I’ve owned. I expect them to come in and just shock me.
I have read that the Rane is quite dirty, not hi-fi quality and designed for commercial live sound applications. I see sometimes old Luxman equalizers come up for sale which might be a better choice for higher resolving systems..
WC , why would the Neoliths be much better than the 15A you already tryed. Same panel technology, just a bit bigger. On bass, I agree the Neoliths should most probably outclass the 15A. But from midrange to highs you will experience not much more than what the 15A showed you.
Electrostatics are limited by design on fullness and body ( dynamics also ?) compared to the Alexia 2. It`s not even about my opinion, it`s a just design fact.
But you should have fun nevertheless with them. Just that you would have had a lot more fun with the Alexia 2.
Techno: one of the biggest things that the Neolith brings to the table is dynamics. I confirmed this through a few of my sources. The Neolith is the most dynamic ever built by Martin Logan. Essentially, the dynamics not present in the other models are present on this model. The massive panels is indeed what makes the difference. A bigger panel isn’t just a little more sound than the model below. You wanna know HOW I know? I owned the 13a and 15a at the same time. It took me one day to realize how much better the 15a is over the 13a. It was a huge difference between both. The extra panel surface on the 15a just made it sound 10 times bigger than the 13a. Imagine the gab between the Neolith and the 15a.... yes, the dealer I bought all my Logan’s from has all the models on the floor. He sold me the 15a and told me I would be floored. I went with what he said and yes it was an awesome speaker. He continued to tell me for the longest that the Neolith (which he has on his floor) is just the best he’s heard. He had yg Sonja, persona 9h, 7f, Sonus Faber cremonese (which I also owned) and he again, showed me videos of all of these speakers on his floor and he said it “ the Neolith is on a whole other level, remember when I told you the 15a was amazing? Well I’m telling you once you hear the Neolith you will fear going into anything else because the huge sound is intoxicating and no conventional speaker can compensate for it. You’d need a speaker costing 100k+ in order to bring the Neolith any sort of fight”. Again, I’ve been doing business with this person for a long time and he’s really never steered me into something I hated. As a matter of fact, he also has Alexia 1s on display and said the neolith makes them sound broken. I flew in to listen to the Neoliths last year and I remember not liking the Alexia after hearing them. I remember they sounded muffled in comparison. That said, all I gathered was that the neolith sounded huge like Godzilla and everything else sounded lethargic and small in comparison. This feeling of “small” is what most speakers sounded like to me after hearing the Neolith. Of course, overtime your ears get adjusted to it so I forgot how big they sounded. If you were to hear them next to another speaker then you’d realize how much bigger it sounds.
Remember, panel size makes a HUGE difference with panels. That is like swapping out an engine. It is that much better.
I had the wife sit down just now and played one song for her: “you and your friend” by dire straits. She heard it on the Diablo and the momentum. Both integrateds have been on for the last hour. Her words were and I quote: “ the shiny one seems to sound more engaging and brighter” and the black one sounds like it has less treble. Lol. Well I will do more listening tonight and try to translate what she meant plus post my opinion.
Dont wish to derail the current details of the OP's new toys so I will keep this short. You have 750+ Posts on this site...yet you dont know how to use it which baffles me. I cant speak for Viber but if you click on either my name OR Techno's names you will see we are involved in numerous ongoing threads besides this one. Quite frankly I'm not sure why you would be interested in what other people are doing with their time anyway on Audiogon...or other any site like AudioAfficiando/Audioshark/Steve Hoffman etc Now that Ive taught you how to "follow" people feel free to stalk me. I'm flattered and disturbed at the same time. Back to our Neolith and DAG vs Gryphon Shootout.
whitecamaross and techno_dude - the size of the panel makes a dramatic difference in the speaker, and it effects much more than merely the size of the imagining (imaging being a critical issue). The size of the film allows the speaker to reproduce signals with much greater
coherency, fidelity, dynamics and authority. The speaker doesn't work nearly as hard and experiences significantly less distortion (something I observed with a pair of Vivid B1 speakers I got to demo in our home). Increasing the (active) driver size improves both strengths and weaknesses of this speaker. What I immediately recognized with the ML's I heard was how well integrated they were (they use a single Mylar film driver with a crossover for bass only). Few speakers match it (in this regard). Think of Quad's (EL34?) and how well they reproduced midrange rich music. Reminds me of the Classic 60 and then the V-70 Audio Research tube amplifiers I enjoyed early in my audiophile journey. Beautiful midrange, decent highs, fat bass. But beautiful midrange - few could match it, none for a competing price (at that time). Well, think of the Neoliths as a fully integrated version of the Quad's. I would be shocked if it didn't sound better than the Alexia II's - it is almost twice the price. We're starting to get into a serious performance level, so evaluating things becomes critical. Small steps make dramatic improvements in the rendition / illusion of a live performance. And in my humble opinion, at this level - recreating the illusion of a live performance is what it's all about. PS: Even a statement piece like the Neoliths are not without limits. PSS: whitecamaross - I've never written this much on a single post. We're ALL awaiting your evaluation(s) :-)
I believe that whitecamaross hinted this already but not only will the Neoliths will be utterly satisfying musically ,they will be the ultimate reference tool to analyze and judge each individual piece of equipment upstream.
Yes mikepaul. The Neolith will strip naked any amp that doesn’t have balls under the hood. It will get bright sounding at moderate volumes and it will present loose bass. That said, are you all ready with my preliminary findings on the gryphon vs momentum? Well, here I go:
momentum: 1. The very best integrated I’ve heard. Even more satisfying than the belcanto black. 2. Immense detail, soundstage and a level of liquidity that I don’t remember hearing from any other component I’ve owned. 3. Gorgeous highs and the mids are just perfect. They are evenly balanced. 4. More detailed than the gryphon. More clarity, more 3D effect with a sense of depth that the gryphon can’t match. 5. The most tubelike sound I’ve ever heard from any other solid state piece I’ve owned. 6. The blackest backgrounds which result in music coming the from the back and with long VERY LONG decay. Instruments linger in the air for seconds longer than on the gryphon. 7. Engaging, romantic and with a presentation that makes you want to sit and listen. 8. Amazing sound even at low volume (<85db)
Gryphon Diablo 300: 1. Awesome muscular sound signature 2. Big soundstage 3. More mellow highs when compared to the momentum. 4. The background is silent but nowhere near that of the momentum. 5. The best bang for the buck without a doubt. You get a lot more here for the money than on the momentum.
With that said, and again this is my preliminary feeling, the momentum is just on another level. Had I not heard the momentum next to the gryphon, I wouldn’t have heard the flaws or weakness on the gryphon. The momentum just exposes them with ease. At 3 times the asking price of the gryphon, the mometum is not only better built and far more beautiful but so is its presentation and overall sound. This integrated is really an integrated to compare against separates. I will spend more time with them and the Neolith in the next few weeks so I can examine the bass and give you my feedback as to who has better bottom end. For now, the mometum bests the gryphon on highs and mids.
Still, for lot less $ , that integrated can be equalled or bested with the best Luxman or Simaudio (2nd best) separates... It will take more to impress me at that 65k level. Thieliste said it, the CH M1stereo best it and the wallet stay puffed...
Techno: I want to let you know that typically in this hobby it is hard to beat a component by choosing a component that is half the price. It’s a different budget constraint for the engineers designing it. For example, you think I’m going to try and beat the Rowland 925s by choosing Amps that retail for 30? It’s just not possible man. There are tier groups for a reason. I know that no Parasound is going to beat the Rowland’s. It’s just not possible man. I’ve tried this before in the past and failed miserably. The Luxman is meant to fight the progression line and not the momentum. The momentum is for the Rowland 925s, constellation, soulution, etc. Heavy hitters if you will. If your mom gives you 50 dollars as a kid to buy shoes, and mine gives me 150, I don’t care what shoes you buy for $50 dollars, you won’t match my Jordan’s. You know what I’m saying?
Well that’s being too broad though. Are you saying that the Neoliths are all just paint and a prettier design than the plastic looking cheaper models? Not the case man... same with Wilson. Is the Alexx just a bigger Alexia but not really better? Far from the truth... Anyhow, I’ve said Parasound multiple times and now I might try a pair of jc5s for fun and see what these do that the old jc1s didn’t do.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
