I’ve been in and out of this thread but don’t remember Agostino amps being under consideration. Is this bc of lack of dealer aggressive pricing? Even the entry level Momentum S250 deserves a shot I would think. What gives?
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
4425, oh yes, WC is very interested in the D'Agostinos (Dags). He is just waiting for an attractive deal. My guess, based on reviews and my listening experience with Krell, Dag's former company, and having met him and knowing his personal musical/sound preferences, is that the Dags will have a powerful, ballsy and fairly accurate personality. In comparison, the Constellations may have a powerful but lighter, more nimble, faster response, although possibly warmer and sweeter than the Dags. Of course, as RIAA says, this is just speculation, and we won't really know until WC does his actual listening. |
Hi guys, the Dag 400s are on my list, but i was informed that the Constellation Centaurus 2 monos are just far better. More bottom end, far better mids and more extended highs. I have my eyes locked on Constellation. Lastly, the 2301s have left my home this morning. I am now only with the Gryphon diablo 300, bhk 300s, BAT 600SE. One of those 3 will be on their way out so i can open up more room and budget for my next purchase. Stay tuned... Dag m400 Constellation Centaur 500 V2 Constellation Taurus Luxman 900u monos (5th time) Gryphon Antileon Evo (thanks to those European dealers that are agressive) |
Sorry I am reposting my prior response In order to correct some information on the GT Audio Speakers. Hi whitecamarross I have been following your thread on the pass labs amplifiers and associated speakers you have been using. I will disclose then I am a pass labs dealer located in Long Island, New York the name of our store is Sound Insight and I have been on this high-end journey as an audiophile and dealer for almost 30 years. I will have to say that you must seriously audition any pass labs amplifier with a speaker that does not possess a crossover and that does not produce Omni directional sound waves that seriously interact with you our rooms acoustics. I have sold and heard some of the worlds greatest loudspeaker systems ever introduced at a retail level. I welcome you to audtion a speaker that does not contain a crossover on the main panel -does not interact with the rooms acoustics as it operates in an open dipole horizontally disbursed manner. The speakers are from GT audio works and I welcome you to go to their website or our stores facebook page just Google Sound Insight high-end audio There you will see many videos of us in action and have won many audio shows winning best sound of show. Additionally you must realize that it is been my experience that the sound of any loudspeaker is compromised when you have any type of low-frequency transducer [woofer] in the same cabinet or enclosure as the mid range drivers There is an audible smearing and lack of transparency that occurs when you do this. Therefore the GT speakers are mated to open baffle servodriven sub Woofers crossed at 65hz that do not compete with the main speakers. The technology in the speakers is remarkable From the pure copper traces on the membrane, the only planar magnetic or electrostatic speaker known to possess a membrane that is not just mylar or kapton but possesses a proprietary membrane to break up any resonances that occur or that plasticky sound. Special frame within frame construction to reduce any mechanical resonances or vibrations that you get in any box or open dipole speaker. We have a pair of pass labs XA 60.8 mono blocks running the speakers as they are 93DB1 W efficient. |
WC, I believe Constellation and Lux are the best bets, for the sonic qualities you just listed. I just think that the Con Inspiration will give comparable sonic purity as the MUCH more expensive Big Cons you listed. The reason is that they all use the same module as building blocks, just more of them in the higher priced and powerful models. Years ago, I spoke to a Con engineer who said the Inspiration has just about the identical circuit as the bigger models. This is what Irv Gross, the sales rep is saying. Read between the lines in the Stereophile review and see whether you interpret it as I do. When I want to consider a SOTA amp, I am most interested in the thinking and R&D that went into it. For the new much faster GaN transistor technology and thinking that goes into the Merrill Element 118, $36K or the Element 116, $22K can be justified, not $55K for the Big Con Centaur which has the same R&D as the $11K Inspiration and is probably a modest improvement based on power only. What were the problems with the Inspirations you heard about and wrote recently? In a similar price and power range, the Con Inspiration would probably compete effectively with the Lux. Suppose the Lux is modestly or a lot better than the Con Inspiration. I don't see the Big Con turning the tables around and beating the Lux. A BIG CON at $55K, pun intended. Maybe you can dip your toe in the water with the Inspiration and compare to the Lux which is reasonable even at $15K retail. I suggest not diving in headfirst at $55K for the Big Con Centaur, A/B the Lux, and being disappointed at the money you spent and hearing techno_dude say "I told you so." For that $55K, you might as well get back the Rowland 925 which you have considered in a class by itself. Then wait another year or so for the Merrill Element 118 at a relative bargain of $36K to see if it dethrones the Rowland 925. |
I beg to differ, those GR/Rythmik OB H frame subs will load your room more evenly than anything else on the market, period (DIY, or not) and they are extremely adjustable. Having viewed WC's room a couple weeks back I would personally say that the over-powering speakers that he has been playing with simply won't solve any deficiencies that he thinks he may have, and since he keeps flipping gear, he must think that he has some. It really doesn't matter about the size of the amp( or the cost) if your not properly addressing the room, and how you load it, you'll never be happy. That said, good luck with your quest WC, I too have enjoyed your journey. Cheers Don |
dguitarnut, again not wanting to appear biased towards my friend faxer, I will say that his ribbons alone are quite extended in both directions, with a slight deficiency only below 40 Hz. In the low teens, they are a superb value for the sound quality which is near SOTA. As a skinny tall speaker, it is very room friendly. I went over to faxer's nice, large listening room, toed in the lightweight ribbons to the head, and everyone was impressed at the dramatic improvement in focus, clarity, HF extension, etc. Admittedly, a DIY product is unknown, so would have low resale value, but they are cheap enough so that even a total monetary loss on this DIY speaker would be much less than that of the Neolith, and even the CLX. Although I have not heard the Neolith I have already posted about the sonic drawbacks of huge curved electrostatic panels, based on my extensive past listening to a few similar products, with theoretical confirmation. Use your double PhD's and do the integral calculus about why large curved panels have major aggregate losses especially in the highs at the listening position, compared to skinny panels, and especially SOTA point source dynamic tweeters such as in WC's Magico. The CLX is better than the Neolith in these aspects, since the HF come from a narrow panel, although it is still curved. For SOTA, the CLX versus these DIY ribbons would be a good comparison. Both are excellent speakers for both absolute sound quality and value for the money. |
david_ten, this Statement VAC amp may sound great, but $150K for something using dinosaur tube technology should give anyone caution. In one fell swoop, the much cheaper new technology Merrill Elements may demolish it, although we will patiently have to wait for experience of listening to them with breaking in, etc. to really judge. Maybe tube lovers will still think that the VAC is SOTA after evaluating the Elements, but that price tag should be respected by anyone who doesn't have money to burn. 4425, correct. Dealer opinion is often biased by the deals they make, politics, etc. There is no substitute for your own personal evaluation. |
I have listened to a variety of VAC amps in stores and RMAF. I have not been able to like them. No matter the model, they seemed to be prone to intermodulating in the treble, resulting in stridency.... Particularly on complex passages of high strings, piano, and orchestral tutti. This however may not be a problem perceivable with music which does not use much sostenuto and is more percussive. My preference this far has remained on the house sound of Soulution, Rowland, Merrill, ARC, and VTL. As I mentioned earlier, the Element 118 prototype I had in my system had high potential. I had slight concerns about some exhuberance in the treble, but it was at the time not possible to determine if this was due to incomplete break-in, or the relative incompleteness of the prototype, or a characteristic that would persist in the the final product. An in depth evaluation of a production unit would be required. It is also worth pointing out that the slight treble exhuberance that I perceived as an excess might be found to be a perfect tonal balance by some other music lover. For some pricing context, the Element 118 monos are priced only about $4K above the Rowland M825 two-chassis stereo amp, which has very similar power rating. G. |
Guidocorona, thanks for your impressions. Are you implying that the "house sound" of all the amps you just mentioned is leaning in the direction of mellow, smooth, laid back? According to reviews, the earlier Soulution amps were crisp/analytical, but the later ones were mellower. Is that your listening experience as well? For tube amps, ARC tend to be crisp, but still somewhat tubey compared to many SS amps. I've never heard any VTL. I remember your extensive review of the Merrill Veritas over 1000 hours of break in. Aside from your comment about the treble prominence of the Element 118, how was the overall clarity and detail retrieval relative to the broken in Veritas? A night and day blow away? I think the word "crisp" best summarizes what I value, since it implies precision in all the frequency ranges, not just a treble emphasis. Often the midrange and even the bass is clearer because of more energy in the treble, due to the overtones of lots of harmonics which are of higher frequency than the midrange/bass fundamental. These higher harmonics are natural, and when revealed it may seem that they are emphasized relative to the fundamental, but they are part of the total sound of the instrument. For example, the string bass has lots of highs due to the scraping of the bow on the string. I once played the open G string on my violin into a spectrum analyzer. Most of the energy was in much higher frequencies than the fundamental at 200 Hz. That doesn't mean the treble is excessive, unless it is obvious in some hyped up recordings where the treble is truly out of line. You will find that in the 15th row of the hall, the treble and many natural high harmonics are reduced from air absorption of distance, compared to the 1st row where the total sound is more revealed, fundamental and harmonics most inclusive. The 1st row sound will be relatively crisp compared to the mellow 15th row sound. When will Element production be finalized, and when will you have an opportunity to review them? Of course, we will have to patient for the 1000 hours of break in, in your usual style of evaluation and reporting! Still, I hope you can be as excited as WC is when he loves to give us his early impressions, always updated as he listens further. Thanks again. |
I have extensive experience with VTL amps and pre-amps. My current set up uses the 6.5 TL pre-amp and the S-400 which is a 400 watt/channel stereo tube amp. I’ve also owned the ST-85 and ST-150 amps and 5.5 TL pre-amp, over the years. To my ears, these amps/pre-amps are very neutral (except the ST-85 is more lush and has more of a “tubey sound” - but led me fall in love with tubes). The S-400 is auto-biasing which I like very much. I can’t compare them to the Mac tubes, but I can compare them to Mac SS. I actually went from my ST-150 to a Mac SS amp and found that music was so much less involving. I stopped listening to music as much. Now that I’m back with the VTL components, I’m back to enjoying and being involved with home music again. The soundstage is huge, three dimensional, and the instrument lines are fleshed out perfectly. |
Another funny neutral tube amplifier brand...Why t. f. would I want neutral sound from a tube amp ?.. Never could and never will compute the biggest hi-fi paradox ever ( or may I say biggest hifi joke ever) ... Tube amps that sound like solid state...tubes amps that are geared to sound like SS...tube amps that do not sound too much like tubes...tubes amps that have the pros of ss amps...lmao If you like neutral, buy SS. If you like tubes and their pros, assume yourself, get a natural tube amplifier....Just go something ´´fully Mullard ´´ by the name of God. Doesn’t tubes sound best or not ?... The day I decide to embrace tubes, and let go of my SS rig, I will choose something like Shindo, Leben, Mac MC2301, Lux tube , ... |
@techno_dude I don’t think your fully understanding what I mean by a neutral sound to the VTL tube amplifiers (especially with the S-400). I am not saying that they are more SS in their presentations. Each different kind of amplification technique has its own pros/cons (A, A/B, D, tubes). When i I say that the amp is “neutral”, I am describing that they don’t suffer from common problems typically associated with tubes, such as bloat in the bass, dark/syrupy colorations, rolled of highs or lack of quick transients. Many people will say that this then makes them sound more like SS, because those are not typical problems associated with that type of amplication. But my feeling is that they are neutral because they do not suffer from these problems. The quality that I think tubes can replicate the best is how individual notes and chords can layer on top of each with such natural presence and decay that it portrays the beauty and intent of the music. I do not have nearly the breadth of experience with the number of brands of amps that WC has, but I suspect that this quality is what made him fall in love with the MAC. |
This thread always go back on track. Because WC created something stronger than that little background haze...which is fun and sometimes very much interesting nevertheless. Even if we go off the rail , I’ m sure WC and the mods are not afraid one bit of it coming back on track when WC writes and opens the original path again. Biblical. ;) |
So I had a conversation last night with someone who agreed with me in regards to something: SS amps are getting closer and closer to tubes but by no means do they sound the same. Tubes have this way of engaging you and making you listen that only few SS amps can do. I can honestly say tubes are really enjoyable and really something special. I also was able to hear through tubes the changes in sound when I tried different cables etc. Are tubes like a window to the music? NO. they are just a sweet sounding presentation that makes you not worry if what you’re hearing is true to the source. It’s kinda like coffee: do you like it black ? Or with hazelnut creamer and whipped cream on top? Maybe this is why I can’t let go of my ref10? The only downfall is the lack of reliability and the poor resale value associated with tube gear. |
Over a 30 year period I've had my share of tube and transistor components. Tube electronics have been rock solid reliable. Resale value, I summit is more likely brand dependant rather than incriminating all tube components in a general statement. Solid state is subject to the same outcome due to brand considerations as well. Charles |
Hi WC,I notice your aversion to subwoofers, your understandable thinking being if you pay big bucks for a speaker it should do it all without needing separate bass augmentation.Consideration needs to be given to the fact that where you position your speakers for the best sense of space, soundstage, depth etc. will not be the best position to provide bass. If you were to position the speakers where bass sounded best would probably not image well, especially if one speaker was in a corner and the other in the middle of the opposite wall. Separating these two duties has great benefits. A relatively modest looking bookshelf speaker with good subs can sound astonishing.But they must be the right subs. Servo driven open baffle subs have been mentioned and I endorse that. Simply the finest bass reproduction I have heard.There is more to it than just added bass. It is uncanny how the midrange and even the treble improves!Also OB bass correctly positioned will not overload even a small room.Brian Ding at Rythmic does servo bass. Very clean, very detailed and informative sound. I will never use anything else. Its exciting to listen to. If you use multiple subs and a moderate amount of bass traps and first reflection point absorbers (perhaps in your new listening room) you will not need to resort to EQ.This sounds like one of those adds, yes there is still more. If you high pass your main speakers say around 60 to 80 Hz sound improves further because vibration of the main speakers is reduced and less power is required from the power amp/s. This is particularly noticeable with tubes where you are removing 20Hz and lower from saturating the output transformers.In addition to servo OB, introducing an extra sealed box servo sub can provide slam. Just experiment and flavour to taste.The Magico's would respond well to this treatment and I would love to witness and take pics of your expressions before and after and post them here for all to see :) |
WC, I agree with your post last night for its honesty and truthfulness. You seem to presently prefer a revealing sound that may be slightly on the sweet side, like a slight dose of hazelnut creamer and whipped cream in your coffee. In that case, the Lux or any Constellation with their somewhat sweet midrange would give you just about everything you want. This is my guess based on reviews and the comments of yourself and techno_dude on the Lux. On the other hand, the fact that you have been enjoying the Magico for a longer time than other speakers suggests that you value the idea of a window into the music. You described the Magico as a neutral, accurate conduit/window into the music, despite more prominence of the highs than what you were previously used to. The increased highs make it possible to hear all the overtones of all instruments, as I shared with Guidocorona the other day. For the most accurate/revealing neutral window, you might also consider the Soulution 711, which is available on A-gon for $34K or so asking price. For many years when I was horrified at the tonally distorted sound of early SS, I took refuge in lots of tube equipment. Then I got the best tubes from Roger Modjeski, and later got the excellent Grant Lumley tube amps. All of these had less sweet personalities with more accuracy, until I got an early Spectral preamp and amp and realized that by this time SS was maturing and giving just about everything important. I began demanding more and more accuracy and information retrieval, which can only occur with neutrality. Don't spend a lot of money on stuff with a residual coat of sweetness. That's why I believe the cheaper Constellation or the Lux M900u represent great value at this point. Spend serious money on the Soulution 711 or the coming Merrill Element 118 whose qualities still are not known for sure. On further thought in response to 4425, as much as you would like to listen to everything for yourself, the constraints of money and time make this task just about impossible. So if you trust the ears and the honesty of that guy who said the Constellation beats the Dag in the ways you mentioned, that narrows the field for you to consider seriously. From my experience with a few Krell amps from Dag's former company and knowing him, and trusting the ears of a well respected dealer for Dag, Spectral, Parasound, Lamm who said Dag has a more rolled off sound than several of the other units he sells, I'd say you can pass on the Dags unless you can get a fire sale deal on a Dag which you can listen to and then sell quickly without losing any money. |
Judicious advice from Viber6. Could save you $ WC. The choice of amp depends a lot of how much tube sweetness the REF10 brings to the table, the synergy with the Magicos , and the tastes of the op. If enough for him, he can go SS amp...powerful, fast, resolute. If not enough, he can go tube. Yes the Lux brings a nice dense and juicy midrange, but my guess is a full tube amplifier can go further if someone crave for that famous magic of tubes. I ´m a SS guy, but I must admit that WC’s experience with the Mac 2301s opens a door in my mind about a future tube amp to replace my Lux. I wonder if a powerful Spectral amp would be to WC’s taste to go with his REF10. They say Spectal is powerful, fast, resolute...an iron grip like no others... It could make the Magico wake up their FULL dynamics . Opinions about Spectral amps ? |
techno_dude, I like the neutral-maximum clarity as sonic goals of Spectral, but in practice it may not work out for a few reasons. First, they require a complete Spectral system because of the Mhz bandwidth, which means the Spectral preamp, MIT interconnects and speaker cables which have their own colorations that one may not like. Years ago, I found MIT to be veiled. They are ridiculously expensive for just being glorified filters. The coming Merrill Elements have Ghz bandwidth to put Spectral's Mhz bandwidth to shame. I hope Merrill doesn't require their whole system for absolute compatibility and prevention of blowups from so-called problems from unfiltered high bandwidth. Soulution Mhz designs don't require a complete Soulution system that I am aware of. Second, I recently went over to a seller's house and A/B'ed my Bryston 2.5B SST2 with his older Spectral amp that didn't require the whole Spectral shebang. We both agreed that my Bryston was faster and more exciting than his more mellow Spectral. He was a dignified seller who could have assumed that I can't hear properly and dumped all over my Bryston in favor with what he was selling, as MOST DEALERS DO. This was a great surprise to me, so despite reviews and the mystique of Spectral, I found out the truth only from my own listening. That Spectral unit could have developed different sound through aging--I don't know. Getting back to WC's ARC ref 10, you are right that he may have a sufficient dose of the tube hazelnut cream coloration so that he might appreciate the most neutral and revealing SS amps like series 7 Soulution (probably the best value and absolute performance is the 711 available on A-gon), Mola Mola Kaluga at a more "modest" $16K retail, or whatever else comes along. I am patiently waiting to see what develops with Merrill Elements. WC, I am guessing that your BAT has similar type of sound and performance to Dag, at a small fraction of the Dag price, so keep the BAT around as a bargain reference. |
A point to be aware of regarding the possibility of pairing a Spectral power amp with the Ref10 (or any other) ARC line stage or preamp: All currently produced Spectral power amps, and some of their older models, have input impedances of 10K. (A few of their older models have input impedances of 100K). All or nearly all ARC line stages and preamps have a load impedance specification of 20K **minimum.** Regards, -- Al |
almarg, Good points, but my beef with Spectral is their requirement that you get the whole shebang of Spectral/MIT stuff. The Spectral dealer won't even sell you the amp alone, unless you buy the whole shebang. Even an A-gon seller a while back had the warning not to use the amp alone without the other Spectral components. |
I really have no problem with a manufacturer that designs their equipment to work best with their own equipment. If Spectral sounds best with Spectral, then so be it. What I still think is that WC should try the amp that mates best with the REF 10 and that is the REF250 SE. Again, although the system I heard had stupidly expensive Basis Turntable/arm/cartridge setup and also Vandersteen 7s. It was the only system I've heard that completely disappeared. I've also heard the REF 10/REF 250SE with top of the line (yes, I know) Wilson speakers and digital front end and it was again, wonderful. If I was a high end manufacturer, I would design equipment to work best with my own equipment first. Maybe I would have other equipment that was designed to work with someone else's equipment also, but, my primary would be around my own. just my two cents. By-the-way, I have on two occasions heard the DAG's and I can tell you they were amazing. I would take them in a second. enjoy |
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars.I think the honor of best goes to the David Berning Company ZH-230 Stereo Amplifier or the Linear Tube Audio Ultralinear, at considerably lower cost. Any thoughts? |
rickdog, What a fanciful thought, interesting! That brings me back to my contention that present audio technology for music systems is primitive compared to NASA and similar sophisticated high tech applications. High tech is objective, unlike the subjectively oriented desires of many audiophiles. As I said many times, the ideal audio goal is to combine objective measurements and descriptions with subjective observations. With more education about the nature of real-life sounds and ability to describe accurately what you hear, the subjective perceptions become more objectified. But when too many audiophiles dismiss the need for objectivity and just go by their subjective whims, the electronics industry doesn't take them seriously and moves on to the much more advanced objective requirements in aerospace, computer and other high tech fields. |
I know that practical considerations have no place here but I can’t help myself. When contemplating a Ref 6 vs the Lux I would not disregard two issues: 1. The 6550 tubes in the Ref 6 power supply offer potential significant damage should one blow. More risk than a Ref amp losing a tube. This is straight from ARC. 2. All ARC preamps are really not designed to drive subwoofers except possibly REL. Very few matches might work. The Lux has many wonderful attributes with no downside. Blind fold test them and see if there is superiority in the Ref 6 worth taking on some liabilities. Just a thought. No agenda here I assure you. |
@viber6 - Regarding high bandwidth amp designs, with all due respect I believe you may be confusing two different things with your statement: "The coming Merrill Elements have Ghz bandwidth to put Spectral’s Mhz bandwidth to shame." Spectral electronics actually have a true signal bandwidth in the MHz range, but I don’t see any signal bandwidth even specified in the detailed specifications on Merrill’s site for his new Element amps. The mention of their GHz speed that I’ve seen is in reference to the switching frequency for their Class D operation, not the amplifier’s signal bandwidth. Those are two entirely different things and even though they’re both specified in frequencies are not comparable. If the Merrill Element amps truly have a signal bandwidth in the GHz range I would think that they would detail that in their given specifications. Since Class D amps generally require a filter on their output to remove the high switching frequency ’noise’, it’s unlikely that they would have a signal bandwidth that extends linearly to anywhere near their switching frequency. |
4425 9-18-2018The line-level input impedance of many and I believe most REL subs is 10K, well below ARC’s usual load recommendation of 20K minimum for their line stages and preamps. The input impedance of the power amp, that would be paralleled with the input impedance of the sub for one of the two signals in the preamp’s balanced pair of output signals if the power amp is connected via XLR and the sub via RCA, would further reduce the 10K load impedance. The speaker-level connections provided by REL subs would work well with ARC power amps, but there is an important caveat. ARC fully balanced tube power amps typically have their circuit ground connected to the 4 ohm tap, not to the common tap. So in the case of a fully balanced ARC stereo tube amp the black ground wire of a REL sub’s speaker-level input should be connected to the 4 ohm tap. The red and yellow signal wires should be connected to the 8 ohm tap of the corresponding channel, or alternatively to the 16 ohm tap if 16 ohm taps are provided. In the case of monoblocks I would consult with ARC as to what to do with the black wire. On another note, Bill_k makes a good point about the reference in the Merrill literature to GHz speeds. As far as I can see none of the information provided at their website makes clear what parameter is in the GHz range (and for that matter I wasn’t able to even find a clear statement that it applies to the switching frequency), and a specification of signal bandwidth is not provided. Regards, -- Al |
There are more details on the Merrill Audio Element amps at the link below, but there is still no mention of their signal bandwidth. There is however confirmation from the designer that their output is low pass filtered. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25427-New-High-End-Amplifier-Monoblocks-from-Merrill-Audio-ELEMENT-118 |
Thanks, Bill. The one reference to GHz speeds I see at that link is a statement that "the Gallium Nitride Transistors can operate in the Gigahertz range." I'm sure that is true, but of course that statement provides no indication of how fast the transistors are switched in the amp. Best regards, -- Al |
bill_k, OK, I will read your links, thanks. I was under the impression that the GaN transistors Merrill is using are themselves Ghz devices, whereas the conventional transistors Spectral is using are Mhz devices. The devices must be the fastest possible in order to get negligible signal delays, which enable use of more feedback if desired to reduce distortion further, which is the approach used by Soulution and Mola Mola. Merrill avoids use of feedback, since he claims that speed is maximized this way. I am not a technical expert to favor one of these approaches over the other, but in the end, educated listening will be the judge. Of course, since audio signal output is only 20-20Khz, it is OK to filter the output, once the internal signal processing is handled with speed and accuracy. |
bill_k, I get the impression from your link that the Merrill's GaN Ghz transistors are in the signal path, not as the switching freq of the power supply. This implies that the circuit has Ghz bandwidth with the appropriate highest speed, which then gets low pass filtered at the output for 20-20 Khz or whatever audio bandwidth. Merrill is implying that this amp design yields the fastest speed, according to my reading of it. |
