My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
@viber6 I ripped all of my Cds in.wav format into JRiver. I had about 600 all together .Some people will say that you do not have to use .wav files , BUT...In my system i can hear a difference in lossloess vs .wav.. JRiver is probably not the most user friendly , but it can do up to double rate DSD. It will also upconvert any lower res files up to whatever your DAC can handle.they have channels that you can stream and lots of HD Radio stations. It is a pretty awesome piece of software. I am actually hardwired to my Router /Modem for Roku, TV, Mx150,Oppo203 .. etc You can also bitstream. The cost is about 40 bucks for the software. It will run on Mac or PC. You can download Gizmo for your phone andriod or apple , to control playback also. lots of cool things you can do with JRiver media Center. I put mine up on my 4K 70 inch Sony TV. It is awesome looking.. especially Black on Black skin https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71588.0
mayoradamwest, Great to hear that your experience confirms mine. What instrument do you play? Where do you live? My favorite orchestra recordings are the close miked and EQ'ed high frequency boosts of Mercury Living Presence. Brilliant and exciting, mimicking what we hear when we play in the orchestra. I also love the Turnabout/Vox recordings from 1967 of the Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances (this was promoted in the audio salons when I got started in 1978) and the Copland popular pieces--Rodeo, Fanfare for the Common Man. These are upfront sounding recordings with wonderful presence and impact. (I can't stand the sound of most other recordings of the Symphonic Dances--you can hear the echoes and distant murky ambience which kills the life out of those performances.) I was inspired by these recordings, and developed my recording technique to mirror the excitement of these recordings. I place the pair of directional cardioid Neumann KM 184 microphones right over the conductor's head, angled about 100-110 degrees with microphone diaphragms about 12 inches apart in a modified Blumlein technique. When he heard the playback over headphones right after a concert, he said that it was just like the live sound he heard as he conducted. I'll say it was "better" because I boosted the highs to make it more exciting because the live sound on that cramped stage is boxy.
charles1dad, listen to the saxophone solos in the first movement of the Rachmaninoff in that Turnabout recording (Donald Johanos conducting the Dallas Symphony). It is close miked and immediate. On my system, it is very live and realistic. A similarly immediate recording of brass is the "For Duke" audiophile recording by M & K.
I’m thinking of ripping all my CD’s to .wav, and was wondering how much space it took to do yours. I have just under 900, and will need to buy some new storage. Maybe a RAID array. That would be a lot to lose!
@viber6 I play trumpet in the SF Bay area and have played with most of the pro orchestras around here. The trouble with recordings pre-80s more than anything else is that winds and brass completely changed their style of playing in the US. It went from short and bright, to darker and more legato. With the strings a big change occurred as well with a bigger focus on intonation and less vibrato in auditions. Perhaps my favorite recording of the past 20 years in the CSO doing Mahler 3, released in 2007. I've never heard the opening horns (all 12 of them) sound so good. That said, it's nothing like in person. I had a chance to see Philly do Shostakovich 7 a few years ago and it was breathtaking. I don't particularly like Boston, but the recent release of Shostakovich 4 is also wonderful. These are getting much closer to the sound of the orchestra. As a brass player, I have a lot of time to sit around and listen.
Fun fact. This thread accounts for nearly 10% of all posts in the amps/preamps sub-forum. There are 4 sub-forums with fewer posts than this one thread. Nice going @whitecamaross !
@curiousjim I do not remember exactly how much space , but i originally had two 500 gig hard drives , but I recently added a 2TB USB drive and started ripping all new stuff. I have heard that 1000 cds would be about 700 Gigabyte. I would think less than 1TB, The maximum storage capacity of a CD-ROM is about 700 Mb, so as a higher bound for 1000 non-compressed audio CD files I would consider 700*1000 Mb = 700 Gb = 0.7 Tb that can fit easily in an external hard disk drive. i am using a Dell Precision T5400. I definitely now use BackBlaze @ $5 per Month.
mayoradamwest, thanks for relating your experience. Just wondering--how does the sound of your trumpet under your ear compare to the sound heard 5 feet away with the bell projected at him? I suspect that listener gets much more energy with piercing high frequencies than you are hearing. Correct me if I am wrong. My guess is that the trumpet is highly directional with most of the energy right on axis and a big drop off axis, probably a bigger difference than my directional cardioid mics where most of the drop-off is only in the high freq. By contrast, my violin projects with fairly large dispersion, and the sound under my ear is MUCH louder and MUCH more detailed than any listener perceives. As far as listening in the audience, once I made the mistake of sitting close and far left. Much of the first violin section had their backs to me which smothered the sound, rolling off the highs especially. So if I cannot get my choice seat slightly to the left of center in the first row in line with the soloist, I would rather sit slightly to the right of center so all the first violinists project their sound at me, but not too far right, otherwise the cellos are dominating.
I love the recordings of Maurice Andre for his mellow legato trumpet sound, although I never heard him live. Although not quite high fidelity, I love the sound of the NBC Symphony under Toscanini. The crisp horn sound of the Berv brothers is exciting. Also, the recording technique is close and projecting. After 1950, the sound of those recordings is truly exciting. I have never heard anything more exciting than their Verdi Overture to La Forza del Destino from 1952. I also love the nasty crack of the brass section at the opening of the turbulent section of the William Tell Overture and the forceful but controlled impact of the tympani. Everyone knows the final section with the piercing trumpet calls and impactful tympani. HOT DAMN! I hate most other recordings of this piece where the brass and tympani are mellowed out and smothered in stupid ambience so the impact is dulled.
With violinists, I learned that the rich, sensitive sound of the great masters was created with NARROW vibrato, paradoxical as it seems. Watch the videos of Mischa Elman who had the richest sound of all, but his vibrato was so narrow that if you were to watch his video with sound muted, you could not predict the characteristics of his sound. Most of today's young violin soloists have a wider vibrato which actually creates a harsher, cruder sound. I particularly hate the sound of Anne Sophie Mutter, whose gross vibrato makes her sound like a truck driver. As with overpriced, overhyped audio equipment, big name musicians often sound mediocre to the truly informed connoisseurs, and better musicians without media hype are often struggling to make a living, just like many great smaller audio companies.
Hello viber6, Your posts are interesting and provoke thought. You wrote that big name musicians often sound mediocre and that the better sounding musicians struggle to make a living. My question is why aren't the better musicians recognized for their superior talent?
How do the lesser musicians acquire the bigger name ,fame and presumably higher income? This is a sincere question. How is this possible? This isn't the case with athletics/sports. Those with a higher talent level are clearly sorted out. Charles
@curiousjim I used the JRiverMediacenter software . It has its own rip capabilities .Just make sure you set the format type to be .wav. You can tell it where to rip to or store to also
charles1dad, the general performance level is very high these days because of all the competition in a field where everyone loves to make music. An average Juilliard student puts on a good performance. Even a good amateur like me is capable of pleasing most audience members. There's a cute girl named Tiffany Poon who plays piano on youtube. I like her sensitive performances of some pieces more than Vladimir Horowitz. Despite all her clever videos which attract lots of viewers and several patrons, she is not making it, despite her extraordinary record of competition wins. So she is going to enter Yale to get a masters degree. She doesn't need any more education--she plays better technically and musically than many of her teachers. But she needs to play the politics and marketing game more--that's what it will take to get the recognition and the career that she deserves. I think Anne Sophie Mutter is a decent but ordinary soloist, but she has played the game well, using her womanly charms, first with Herbert von Karajan and lately with Andre Previn whom she divorced.
Viber6, Thank you for your reply. "Playing the game" has more influence than innate musician talent? That's regrettable as well as disappointing.
I'm much more involved and knowledgeable about jazz than classical music. When listening it is so apparent to recognize genuine ability. No had to tell me Theloneus Monk, Miles Davis or Gerry Mulligan are special, it's self evident. No amount of "playing the game" could overshadow that truth. Or so it would seem. Charles
This is a very fragmented discussion. But my two cents worth. I own the Pass 350.8. It is an excellent amp and better, in most respects, to any amp I have heard. So I look at it as an excellent foundation for my system. Its the care in choosing the rest of the system that really pays dividends. The phono amp and preamp are critical as is the cartridge for vinyl playback. Of course the speakers are critical in that they have to be matched to the room acoustics. Everything else I own is tube based. As someone else has mentioned a 6SN7 tube based preamp will really change your system if you choose the right tubes. Same with the phono amp, if you you choose the right tubes.
The right furniture also makes a big difference. Have this part of the system custom made, not all the overpriced contraptions sold here and elsewhere.
Update: I connected the Wireworld silver eclipse 8 speaker cables. Things sound warmer and seem to have lost a little bit of the 3D effect I was getting with the silver 7. Perhaps they need to be broken in. Not really sure.
browndt, You should sell your 350.8 and replace it with a Lux M900u. Just saying while there are still 2 available on audiogon. They tend to be very rare and go quickly. It would be a very nice upgrade to your system.
WC can tell you more about both because he compared them thoroughly.
+2 Mr. Bill....this is WCs adventure and that’s what I want to read about. This whole page only has one 3 line comment by WC and the rest is rambling chatter with out much relevance to the thread. Too many self proclaimed experts giving each other advice. Now....let me tell you that having played backup guitar to Eric Clapton I believe I know how an acoustic guitar should sound like. (Kidding)
Alright guys: I just plugged in one silver 7 cable to my right speaker and a silver 8 to my left speaker. I played a few songs and used the “mono” mode that the ref10 has which pretty much outputs the same signal to both L and R channel. I can certainly hear more out of the speaker connected with the silver 7. Incredible how the magico tell me what’s going on. Lastly, either I’m going deaf or I’m hearing a little more vocals on the right side. This happened before I got any cables so it’s not the cables. Hmmm. I wonder what it could be. Last time I had this phenomenon was when I had Belcanto 600m Monos. The powercords was what made the vocals shift from being dead center.
About threads. Charles1dad is very thoughtful, and mayoradamwest is the revered musician of this thread. WC has created a wonderful community here. Charles has made so many contributions and everything related to music is welcome here. Whatever Charles wants to discuss is welcome here. Mikepaul has asked probing questions about coping with the medical illness called Audiophilia Nervosa. Even WC is beginning to think that his present happiness with his system will endure, and he not have the wandering eye that much in the future. So this thread has psychological ramifications. It's not just about the equipment. Let's keep this happy community going. I think WC approves. Besides, the last day or so has been intermission fun while we all eagerly await WC's assessment of the BHK and Pass. Then WC will be the star of the show again.
Charles1dad, you're right about Monk, Davis, etc, but how about all the undiscovered great musicians that you never heard because they didn't have the other personal qualities needed for managers to promote them. Also, in athletics, there are very objective criteria of talent which can be measured, like speed, strength, agility, etc. However in music, all the competitors have excellent technique, and their interpretations and personal images vary so much, that it really becomes a game of politics of subjective opinion about who will be successful in making a career. Equally brilliant lawyers on both sides of a case have trouble convincing the judge and jury to accept their arguments, so that it becomes arbitrary who wins the case. Such is the situation with judging musicians. AND DO YOU THREAD ISOLATIONISTS SEE THE RELEVANCE OF THESE ARBITRARY CRITERIA TO AUDIO EQUIPMENT?
WC, regarding your question about more vocals on the right side--a slight difference in speaker position between L and R may be a factor. Tweeters, especially the fine ones in the Magico must be angled equally, and are most sensitive to this effect because of the smaller wavelengths of the highs. Personally, as long as one speaker is not obviously overdominant, precise localized imaging is not as important to me as tone, frequency extension, inner detail, clarity, etc. Many people at live concerts note that natural instrument placement is nowhere as precise as stereo system imaging.
whitecamaross those cables/cords will require several hundred hours of break-in or play time to tell the real story. Anything less will not be revealed.
It's a shame that some people are so self absorbed that they dont realize 90% of the audience has left the party. Congratulations on alienating almost everybody except for a few like minded individuals. If I want to experience pretentiousness I will put in a Frasier DVD or a Mash episode featuring Charles Emerson Winchester the 3rd. Get the Hint already and take it elsewhere.
lright guys: I just plugged in one silver 7 cable to my right speaker and a silver 8 to my left speaker. I played a few songs and used the “mono” mode that the ref10 has which pretty much outputs the same signal to both L and R channel. I can certainly hear more out of the speaker connected with the silver 7. Incredible how the magico tell me what’s going on. Lastly, either I’m going deaf or I’m hearing a little more vocals on the right side. This happened before I got any cables so it’s not the cables. Hmmm. I wonder what it could be. Last time I had this phenomenon was when I had Belcanto 600m Monos. The powercords was what made the vocals shift from being dead center
Please be patient on the Cable break in . It is Real
Viber6, I appreciate your very kind comments and as stated earlier I personally find your perspective and thread contributions quite worthy and stimulating. It is apparent that a brief deviation from the thread topic is annoying to some participants here and I apologize for this deversion into a discussion centered on musicians rather than the Audio hardware. This is of course the dominant interest to the majority here. Whitecamaross thanks for your tolerance of my interaction and topic deviation with viber6. Charles
Hi guys: I tried my third 2301 to see if maybe it was an issue with one of the other 2 and no the same slight feeling of the mids not being dead center is happening. I had my wife sit down and she said the mids to her seem to come from the middle. I also mesdured the speaker distance to my listening chair and they are almost the same distance. Anyhow, I’m here to say that the level of liquidity is mind blowing with this set up. Am I getting massive bass? No I’m not but the rest is just incredible. I can sit here until 3am and listen to music without any fatigue. Outstanding synergy is taken over everything. I got confirmation the 200.8s will be here no later than September 14. The bhk Monos will be here on Tuesday which sucks. For now, I will the very honest: I HIGHLY HIGHLY DOUBT that the 200.8s can improve on what I am hearing right now. If they do, I’ll be shocked beyond belief. Hell, I’d love to bring the dag m400s right now to come and play here. I don’t expect my set up to best solid state bass and dynamics but let me tell you that in liquidity andmusicality... it can break hearts...it feels as if i put 3d glasses on and things have layers of information in a 3 dimensional way. The remaining amps that are in my head are: pass labs 200.8s (coming in 2 weeks) arc 160m dag momentum 400s luxman 900u monos BAT 655se monos
thats pretty much it guys. I don’t have any other amps I want to try. Anything else would be something that maybe fell in my lap at a great deal. My elite amp choices are running out. The market is starting to dry out for me in terms of amps. I’ve moved faster than most companies can produce new product. I knew this would eventually happen. I knew I would eventually run out of amps that can capture me. I plan on holding on to 2 pairs of amps that sound very different than each other while satisfying me. I believe that the 2301s could be that first pair. The 200.8s will determine that. :)
It takes some people years and others ,not that long , but it seems,myself included , that once people experience the Smooth, Open , Musicality and Realness of some Good Tube Equipment , it is very hard to go back to Solid State. :) I said it way back when , in this thread , about being able to listen for days on end, .That is the type of sound I can live with .....forever.
Pass labs is a good AMP, but not the best.he lacks clarity in the mid. Voices are more oppressies compared to the other Instruments. (The strong bass ,on your speakers, sound slightly displaces the other Instruments in mis-low). I prefer to hear the Esoteric f-05 , Ear Yoshino 509, and the world’s best speakers : Ilumnia magister. a reason to “feel” the Music. As if you were present in the studio.
Man I found this song by the cars called “drive” and it’s just insane... mind blowing. I must have played it 10 times in a row because I couldn’t believe how it sounds. Just crazy amazing.
WC, other possible reasons for differences in right/left balance could be aging tubes in your Ref 10 preamp, R/L differences from other components in the chain. Try unplugging and reversing R/L in each different component to try to diagnose this. In any case, this imaging anomaly seems to be a minor annoyance in that other qualities such as the tubes give you so much pleasure.
browndt, agree that all the factors you mentioned make a difference. I am interested in your observations about furniture which I haven't yet explored. What audio furniture do you recommend, and what were the sonic characteristics? For example, in the old days, some writers recommended light furniture for the Linn Sondek turntable.
WC, the BAT SS and tube amps have similar tonal balance, according to some people I have spoken to at Music Direct. The BAT tube amps may be more prized than the SS. There is some bias because I believe BAT owns or has a major financial interest in Music Direct. Music Direct frequently offers major discounts on BAT, and the 60 day no risk policy is attractive. I have bought a few items from them, but because I have returned more, they give me a minor penalty of having to reimburse them for round trip shipping for any item returned. I don't abuse their policy because I only try likely contenders, but like you, I am very particular. Not so bad, and far preferable to losing much more money even if you get a good deal elsewhere and still take a loss when selling privately.
While we are eagerly awaiting WC's observations on the next amps and as disappointed as he about the delays, I thought many people of all sonic stripes would be interested in my long history with SS and tubed electronics. My interest in hifi was ignited in 1965 when my father built his own large enclosures for the big Altec Voice of the Theater horn drivers, driven by his own custom made low power tube amp. Drop dead gorgeous, powerful, musical and natural. In 1978, my first serious system included SS Rappaport preamp and Bryston 4B, the original amp Impressive in dynamics and detail, but the midrange was wrong. Voices had a coloration that made them sound like clarinets or oboes. I then got a Dynaco PAS 3 tube preamp which was greatly improved by Frank van Alstine who said it mimicked the ARC SP 3a. I also got a Dyna Stereo 70 tube amp which was modified by van Alstine who said it mimicked the ARC D76a. I was so happy with the musicality and the realism. Later, I got the first Theta tube preamp. It was so much more detailed and open than my Dyna-Alstine tube preamp, but the sound was less sweet. I started to believe that accuracy is associated with dryer, less sweet sound. I then spoke to Roger Majeski of RAM tube works, who was selling various grades of tubes according to his distortion measurements. I got the top grade with the best specs, the most expensive and select. Now the Theta preamp sounded even dryer, less sweet, but far more detailed. This confirmed my belief that accuracy is associated with these qualities. Later, about 1990 I got the SS Spectral DMC10 gamma preamp, which was even better than the Theta in all those ways, but was still musical and not tonally crazy like those earlier SS products. By this time, SS was coming of age and becoming refined, yet truthful and accurate. I then considered the most accurate tube amp by ARC and compared it to the SS Krell KSA 50 driving the original ML stats. No contest--even in the store, the ARC was murky and veiled compared to the Krell. So all you tubaholics, I get it and hear you and agree in many ways, and if you like relatively laid-back sound, tubes are king. For me who wants detail and high freq extension to the max, SS is the way to go. But I agree with techno_dude that the Lux M900u may be a contender for the best of all tube and SS qualities.
WC, my mistake. I thought the BAT 655se were tubes. Their tube amps are of low power so they probably are of no interest to you. But the SS BAT amps are probably the sound type you are seeking. Perhaps BAT is a newer, better version of McIntosh which makes both SS and tube. You might try Rogue Audio tube amps, some of which may be dynamic and powerful enough for you. Reviews suggest Rogue is a cheaper and even better alternative than ARC. Meanwhile the BHK should be a superb contender for you. Probably similar in character to the Lux M900u. That'll be the real shootout.
Initial impressions: -more bass than the 2301s -fuller sound signature -big soundstage which could almost be a - little bigger than the 2301s -great mids. - highs not as detailed as 2301 - level of realism is not there. - things dont POP out of the speaker as much as with the 2301s - overall a very good presentation for the money.
My PRELIMINARY FEELING: this is a poor man’s 2301. It has signs of the 2301s delivery but it never fully captures it. That said, I don’t knock the amp on anything when I take into consideration its price. I will say, I’d probably prefer it over the mc601s. Yep, you heard it from me.
viber6 I would not mind if WC took on the B.A.T. REX pre/power amp combo.The 655se seems to be popular as well. Is B.A.T. a sonic match w/ Magico? Happy Listening!
ROGUE is made right in my close proximity in Pennsyltucky....your comparing them to ARC? LOL UNBELIEVABLE what people come up with on this board without owning/trying any of it. The hits just keep on coming.
I’ve had the opportunity to hear Rogue and ARC amplifiers directly compared in a showroom a feds years back. Rogue is decent and a solid value but it isn’t on the same tier as the ARC REF amplifiers in my opinion. There is a performance gap between them. Charles
If somebody wants to compare Rogue to Primaluna, Line Magnetic or Mid-Tier brands like that by all means have at it. You will not find a Reviewer or Dealer on the planet that would compare Rogue to ARC, VAC, MAC, LUX etc in a favorable manner...it will NEVER happen. A Reviewer would be laughed out of a job making such a statement. Even the High End dealers in the general area of where Rogue is made in Bucks County dont carry their product. That should speak volumes itself
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