My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
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Yeah sure, under the profiles or providing ext links, what's your point? I'm relatively new to AG (obviously) but not to audio. Genuinely curious with so much gear going through his place, would be great to see some of it! Pictures are priceless, dunno who wouldn't want to some of these great items and the room they reside in.
My point was simple. You already asked the OP once and he declined to comment...which is what he does when he doesnt feel the need or desire to answer. That's his right and it certainly wouldn't be the first time in this thread. Asking the same question multiple times in back to back posts hoping to get the response you want....thats like a baby crying for its bottle. If he wanted you or anybody else to see his room he would address it.
I agree .. Lets see some pics !! Whitecamaross, please setup your virtual system and add pics . I , as well as many many others would love to see all of this amazing equipment and see how it is setup in your room. Please do it !
alright guys, i will try to post pictures of what i have had although i don't know if i have pictures of every single thing, but you might catch glimpses of stuff throughout time. Send me a link where i can begin to upload pictures. Lastly, the magicos arrive tomorrow at 11am est. I don't expect to have them up and running until about 1pm or so. I will give my listening impressions and then at some point bring out the Focals unless i change my mind tomorrow for some reason. Lastly, here are a couple of things i want to address in the event that i do decide to do a shootout:
1. If Focal loses: Let's keep in mind the Magico is twice the money. Also, Magico is a sealed design so maybe my room likes it better?
2. If Magico loses: Is it the fact that the tweeter is too high relative to my ears? yes, the focal tweeter would be almost at my ear height. Is it the down firing port that my room prefers? There is no real 100% clear answer.
WC--good point about the tweeter height. Since you are tall, the Magico tweeter probably won't be too high. In any case, adjust your chair height to get the tweeter beaming at your ears. This is important to get the full power and information of the high frequencies. The lower the frequency, the less critical it is to have the axis of the drivers pointing to your ears, although Wilson and Focal angle all the drivers to beam the radiated sound to your ears. Later, if you want to consider the YG speakers, my local dealer is a wonderful gentleman, Bill Parrish of GTT Audio in his beautiful home in NJ. He has a smaller YG in a modestly sized room probably comparable to yours, and the flagship Sonja XV in a large room where all the big shot reviewers came and reported in the magazines 1-2 years ago. I heard the smaller YG and it is the most neutral dynamic (non-electrostatic) speaker I have heard. Years ago, I heard a large Magico model, but the tweeter sound was pinched and called attention to itself. By comparison, in the same large room, the tall Wisdom Audio nearly full range ribbons killed the Magico in every way, but they are expensive. Wisdom has the best ribbon technology that makes the Maggies appear like toys. These could be considered for your large dream room you want to build. Since the Focal is half the money of the Magico, you might be happy with this in your smaller room for now, while saving your money for your ultimate larger room and that large ultimate speaker like the Wisdom.
Click on your own name or title "whitecamaross" Then it would be under "My virtual System " I think you click on "add images " or something along those lines
Can`t wait to read you tomorrow, to know how the Magicos compare to your memory of the Sashas 2 and Vivid G1.
Take your time to compare with what you already know, before opening the Focals if you ever decide to open them. Too much new information in testing 2 different pairs you don't know could be misguiding.
It’s incredible how many people are waiting on my report of the magico s5 mk2. 4 dealers, you, and a bunch of other people that have messaged me. As matter of fact, I had one of my connections ask me to bet $5,000 dollars against his pick which are the magico. He said he’ll be happy as hell to take my money.
One last thing, I was told I need to wheel them in the House but they can’t be on wheels to audition them which means spikes will be needed and then once they are into place, guess what ? I can’t move them on my own...220 lbs each and I was advised not to move them forward because all the weight is in front so they can easily tip over. 2 people already damaged theirs by moving them alone. This could present a big challenge if I plan on listening to the sopras.
Sounds like my Maxx 2s. Over 400 lbs. shipped on casters and my wife and I put them together and spiked them. It was a bit tenuous at times. Thankfully I had the Wilson jack to help. Not sure I could convince her to help out with something like that again.
Soooo... you all ready for my initial impressions? First comment is that my room feels like I added room correction after I fired up the magicos... also sounds as if someone opened the door to another layer of instruments within the music.
@whitecamaross Interesting thread and certainly a lot of time and effort goes into something like this. I'm only half way through the thread and if the request for pics where asked numerous times, I apologize. Obviously it got one indiv bent out of shape and read way to much into it.
Anyway, if you do post pics, I'm sure most here would love it and benefit from it as well. It will probably spark a bunch of new questions :) If you can't or its just too much time totally understand. Best regards and good luck!
WC--for the sake of easier A/B speaker listening, leave the Magico on the casters and even get another set of casters for the Focal. Dealers wheel speakers in and out of rooms using casters. Sure, spikes are better, but the differences between the Magico on casters and the Focal on casters would be similar to the difference between the Magico and Focal on spikes. And the inherent difference between the 2 speakers should be much greater than whether you use casters, spikes or not. Just don't get hurt trying to be a purist tweaker. Too bad you got hurt for a while after lifting heavy amps.
Guys, im 50/50 on opening the focals. That said, people tend to love to assume that if i open focals and then sell them, that they suck etc. However, I may open them and see what happens. Not sure when I will open them because I want to enjoy the magicos and get acquainted to the sound.
Seems that sealed design fits your room well so far. Do you lack bass compared to your memory of the Sashas 2 ? Are they as dynamic as the Wilson, or more tempered ( need to crank up the volume to get them singing ?)
Sound as refined as the Vivid G1, more or less resolution or equal ?
Ok guys, I’ve been doing a few things around the house while the speakers are playing with the ref10 and simaudio. My brief impressions versus Wilson Sasha 2:
1. Better bass than Wilson Sasha 2 in my room. 2. Clean articulate sound that does not disappear even at low volume. 3. They need power. They sound good but I suspect they need more juice than what I’m feeding them. 4. Instrument decay is better than Wilson. 5. More sparkle than Wilson Sasha 2. 6. They can play loud and remain relaxed without compression 7. Nothing stands out in terms of sound. It’s very balanced and doesn’t want to give you more of any frequency. 8. Incredible build quality. It’s so perfectly finished from corner to corner. 9. The bass is there but isn’t the type of bass that will punch you in the gut for no reason. The music has to have those notes for the speaker to do that to you. I like bass but I gotta tell ya, I don’t need more than what these are giving me and I didn’t even try to position them for more bass. I just threw them in the room. 10. I will be honest and say this is not the speaker for those of you trying to buy emotiva amps, Parasound, rotel etc. You simply can not understand unless you had them in front of you. Looking at them make me want to go out and buy constellation Taurus Monos, expensive stillpoints, Etc. The speaker has this weird psychological effect on you that you just want to go out and buy even more expensive front end components. it feels as if I had a Porsche in the driveway and now I want to buy it expensive exhaust, wheels, etc.
That said, yes I am declaring the s5 magico mk2 superior to the Wilson Sasha 2. This speaker is to go toe to toe against the Alexia.
You are right on the money (and if the speakers are new, you heard nothing yet). Once you get it, there is no way back. Forget about the Alexia (or the Alex). Wilson models just get worse as they get bigger.
It’s 3am eastern right now and I’m now going to bed... 5 hours straight of listening to the magico s5 mk2. I played from YouTube videos to dsd files, tidal, crappy mp3s etc. I tried a lot of different formats to see how the speaker behaved. I’ve got a few more things to update on which I found interesting.
Would you say the Magicos have quick and ’’snappy midrange’’. Or are more on the controlled and damped side of things ? I ask this because I’m curious about their carbon/graphene midrange...having not eard it yet.
(I know that Focals are very quick and snappy speakers, a bit like Kudos and PMC...very rythmic drivers). B&W kevlar drivers are slower and more damped , they are less alive and need higher volume level to express themselves.
Magico is controlled. There’s no “jumping at you “ factor. It goes about its business with finesse and control.
That said, I had a little bit of edginess yesterday with my ref10 and simaudio. I believe it’s the toe in angle that I need to play with. The speakers are 4 feet off the back wall and 3 from side walls with the tweeters pointed at my shoulders.
Magico has the craziest amount of separation I’ve heard in my room. Yes, even more than three G1 but that is my room was too small for them. The instrument separation is really jaw dropping. Things now appear in places that I never could tell where they were coming from. Drums that show up on the right speaker sounded as if they came from both speakers in other speakers. The mids are clean and clear like water. No muffling effect on these speakers of any kind. If you sense muffling, it’s the song you’re playing. I actually TRUST it enough to know it’s accurately playing the music exactly as it’s being fed to them. lastly, I think I prefer the gryphon 300 with them over the ref10/simaudio. Another interesting fact is that when you first sit down to listen to them, they don’t wow you immediately but once your ears lock in on them, things begin to happen that make you go wow.
WC, 4 ft off the back and 3ft off the side walls. Are these measurements from the Tweeter or from the side cabinet and back cabinet. Thanks for giving some measurements on speaker placement.
The Gryphon Colosseum or Antileon Evo stereo is the Gryphon you want to try with those Magico.s from what I've read.
WC--glad to hear you appreciate the clarity and truth-telling of the Magico, well summarized by your 10 points listed above. This correlates with the very low distortion figures obtained by several reviewers. But the maximum information retrieval of any speaker is obtained with toe-in so that the tweeters are aimed at your ears. For fine tuning, it can be debated whether the left tweeter should be aimed at the left ear or your nose (between the ears), same goes for the right tweeter. My ears have different hearing responses, so I may shift and rotate my head to better hear certain instruments in different locations in the soundstage. Many people will hear accurate sound and misinterpret it as edginess, when they are not used to accuracy/information retrieval. Live, unamplified high frequencies may be perceived as edginess, but it is characteristic of the real thing at close range. If you decrease the toe-in, you may decrease the so-called edginess, but then you will give up a lot of the truth telling from this speaker. For me, I value maximum information retrieval even at the price of some irregularity in the tone colors.
Viber: i like your advice. I had them pointed directly at me but on certain cuts of music they got a little bright. Yesterday I tried toeing them out and it did get a little more mellow. Of course I have to play with the angle and positioning a bit more but overall the speaker is as honest as it gets. I love it and hate it at times. It’s kinda like when you have a friend that tells you the truth to your face.... you hate him but deep down you know he’s telling it like it is. Could I see me living with magico ? Absolutely. They are perfect size for my room, easy to place, etc. I need to let my ears get more and more acquainted.
Edginess is not necessarily always a simple sign of high resolution.... It can be a warning sign that intermodulative distortions mioght be creeping into the treble region.
THis does not mean that intermodulation is generated by the speakers though... It might very well be that the origin is somewhere else in the audio chain.... Components, cabling, or even the AC line.
WCSS, I know that classical might not be your sup of tea.... But some classical cuts can easily reveal if treble intermodulation is in the works.... Typicall where high strings are playing 7th chords on the dominant, preparatory to resolution of cadenzas onto the tonic... An excellent example is found in the intorduction of the first movement of Dvorak's string sextet with string bass... If there is no intermodulation, the 7th chord comes out as pure, complex, and highly resolved.... But if somewhere in the chain treble frequencies are artificially intermodulated, those chords become horridly schreechy and unlistenable.
Mind you, there is bad intermodulation, and then there is good intermodulation....
Bad intermodulation is the artificial harshness that you hear clearly from the speakers, whenever it occurs....
Good intermodulation is instead a psychoacoustic effect that you will hear from... the middle of your head... It is relatively rare... It happens only when there very little distortion in the system.... You will perceive it on occasion, when two high frequency notes seem to generate a third ghost note coming not from the speakers, but seemingly faintly ringing bell-like from the middle of your cranium. It does sound eerie, and is a sign of tonal purity of your system.
I don’t hate them enough to let them go. Their pros outweigh their cons. If I ever decide to open the sopras, it will be an exercise for me to know and that’s it.
Remember, many many people here sell equipment because they hate it, or because they want to move up the ladder or because they are downsizing. That said, anytime I sell something it’s assumed that it is Because it is no good which is ridiculous. This is why I’m thinking if I open the sopras, I’ll keep the impressions to myself and if I sell them then nobody will know if I even opened them or not.
Remember if you sale them you have to write if the box were opened or not , that difference plays a lot in the asking price. I’m 90% sure you will listen to them, so I ´ll assume the Magicos are better.
Always better to play transparency, like you always did. You’ll always win in th end this way.
WC....just because you critically review a speaker or amp or whatever and feel you found something better, that does NOT diminish the previous piece of equipment!!
nor does it mean the piece is no good.
it’s falls within the avalanche of reviews you have described.
i think we all understand that.
if you keep the focal or magico does that make every post / review irrelevant? no.
does it make one or the other bad? or crap? no.
initially, you bashed the m-l 13a’s compared to the 15a’s.
does that mean the 13a’s turned into polk speakers??? no
the bottom line is that no matter what anyone says is: does a speaker or amp sound good to YOU!?
and is this what you EXPECT from high end audio?
and does the money spent meet expectations?
i have some equipment that you reviewed in the first few pages..13’s ,ref6, etc.
is it junk now because you moved on from them...uhhh...no
i am thrilled with what i have.
and you are enjoying a "high end merry -go- round".
WC--I am glad to help and that you appreciate my advice. I think you have reached a milestone of love for the Magico so you can develop a serious relationship with it, instead of a restless urge to try something else so quickly. If some cuts sound edgy, that is the fault of the recording rather than the Magico which is a truth teller. I would guess that you love how most of your music sounds through it. And even if the cut sounds edgy, there is still a lot of information in that cut to like, so you still come out ahead by hearing more words, space, etc. Also, I recommend trying the Emotiva XPA 2 gen 3. I almost bought it last year after listening for almost the whole 30 day trial. The tubaholics hate it, but the accuracy group like me respects it. It was more honest and accurate than the Bryston 3B SST2, 4B SST2, any Pass, Classe. It was close to the Benchmark AHB2, Krell 2250e. Compared to my little Bryston 2.5B SST2, it was a little warmer and rounded, so I stick with my little Bryston for its ruthless truth telling. I am content to forego higher power if purity is sacrificed. For the nominal 4 ohm impedance of the Magico, the Emotiva will put out 550 Watts. Emotiva just came out with an even more powerful balanced differential amp. When the retail price is ridiculously low for the power and quality, it is a no-brainer to try either Emotiva for 30 days. You won't have a resale problem of losing money.
Wow, I created an Emotiva firestorm. Maybe I can run for office. Seriously, I am not an audio snob who wants to impress the neighborhood with expensive, flashy audio jewelry. I just want great sound at a reasonable or even cheap price. Emotiva is the most accurate amp for the money, and close to SOTA when compared to the big boys. I am not a shill for the company, since I didn't even buy the amp. It is amazing to realize, that despite a quest to find a high powered amp up to $20K, my little Bryston 2.5 B SST2 beats them all for ruthless information retrieval. I will next try the 2.5 B cubed. The review of the 2.5 B cubed on 10audio says it is an exciting listen. That's coming from a tube lover. WC, I agree that the other more powerful Bryston amps are OK but mid-fi. If you are willing to live within the limitations of "mere" 100-105 dB peaks in your room, the little Bryston's 180 watts of transients into the 4 ohm Magico may please your head and heart, if not your balls. And if you occasionally clip on peaks, the Bryston just flashes red but you don't hear anything bad at all, and it won't shut down. Again, I am not a shill for Bryston either. I am a doctor/violinist who has no financial connections to the audio industry. And you can try for 30 days without risk from Audio Advisor.
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