My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
They should give more brute force and impact than a pair of Lux M900u. Ideal for very demanding speakers. But sound quality wise, the Lux should be their equal. The M900u have crazy midrange magic, and the soundstage is cavernous. Add to that the build quality and parts...crazy craftmanship.
So at 24 k used for a pair of Lux, compared to double that for the Dag, imho the Lux are a bargain. But if you have very demanding speakers , you may need the power of the Dag.
dancekeri, In one respect, Nelson Pass is to solid state the way William Johnson was to tubes, in that their famous names are associated with the respective technologies. However, in terms of sound characteristics, this analogy is flawed. Pass goes for sweet midrange sound with rolled off highs and soft bass, in contrast to much solid state. Johnson (Audio Research) went for extended highs and maximum clarity, in contrast to much tube electronics, which are more akin to Pass solid state. In fact, some time ago, WC noted that the Audio Research GS150 had extended highs and detail with overall sound comparable to the Krell 402e. Johnson should be remembered for designs that showed that tubes can demonstrate accuracy and truth in regards to information retrieval, unlike much of tube electronics with their fat, tubby distortion with burial of real information.
I would like to hear more about the Magico's sound. Especially compared to what you remember about the Martin Logan 15A.
Just wondering how the vocals and instruments sound on the Magicos. From what some tell me is that the Magicos put out a soundstage that is speakerless. Thanks
My simaudio 860a has now sold to one of my followers. I will regret this one but it was time for me to let it go. The simaudio 860a is the closest sounding amp to the luxman 900u but it doesn’t run as hot as the 900u and it’s lighter. Glad to see it go to one of you guys !
@shadorne Your post of August 19th (4:52 AM) is somewhat misleading, where you have hyperlinked what looks like a speaker frequency response graph. There is no title on the graph itself and a reference to the Soundstage test article, would have been beneficial to the understanding your post.
While I now understand what the linearity test plot you posted means and the conclusion you arrived to, it was done on the MK1 version and not necessarilly relevant to the speaker discussed here (MK2).
Agreed that it would be interesting to have the same testing done on the MK2 version.
The linearity test plot shown are frequency responses taken at two different SPL levels and then subtracted from each other. A speaker that has no compression will be flat across the full range of frequencies demonstrating 0 dB difference at low SPL compared to higher SPL. Only a speaker that compresses will show deviation from 0dB. Soundstage make these measurements in a government funded research laboratory. These measurements have everything to do with compression (loss of dynamics at higher SPL). 3 dB of compression is quite audible it would be similar to a tone control on the treble down by half. One can be reasonably confident that at over 100 dB SPL the compression would be 6 dB or more across the treble. Compression doesn’t suddenly get better at higher SPL - it usually gets worse. The heat in the tweeter voice coil driver will increase the impedance and this makes the passive crossover design incorrect at high dynamic SPL levels.
This is a real design problem in speaker designs intended to play as loud as live music. It isn’t a problem for designs intended to play at low or moderately loud SPL.
@dracule1 Exactly. A frequency response plot will only provide info on frequency linearity or flatness of the speaker at a specific power input.
Nothing to do with driver compression, which would need to be measured by an audio spectrum analyser at different power level inputs to verify appearances non-linearities or distorsions.
“Shadorne is a troll......he is the infinite audio expert............take his worthless word for it. If you can’t offer facts keep you mouth shut if you can’t contribute to the thread”
Just trying to inject some rationality into all the hyperbole. Don’t worry about the owner not enjoying new speakers. He will have a new SOTA pair by the end of next week. Still no pics of any of this gear...
@shadorne A freq response plot does NOT give you any useful information on power handling of a component. A 3dB dip on a freq response plot doesn't indicate compression. All the technical measurement we use to evaluate audio equipment have poor correlation with how we perceive sound unless it's grossly off (i.e., 10 dB in high freq).
dguitarnut, Shadorne may have spoken in error, but he is far from a troll. He oftentimes offers useful experience and information; and as a comparatively new member to the forums, I think that your judgement is harsh and unwarranted.
r1oster...I have NO DOUBT about that. I think the focal -simaudio combo looks like a winner..( i have heard both, but not in unison).....if i was just building my system the check might be in the mail already...but...
very tempting, but,presently, i am backed into a corner. like i said, the games not over ...down the road...who knows???
To Mike paul , WC has been a great person to buy from . All items were as described and looked like new . Shipped immediately upon payment , will purchase from him again .
Shadorne is a troll......he is the infinite audio expert............take his worthless word for it. If you can’t offer facts keep you mouth shut if you can’t contribute to the thread.
The differences between tweeters WC ears may well be the crossover points. Focal and Dynaudio crosses their tweeter in the low 2000 hz. My guess is Magico crosses theirs higher ( maybe not as high as B&W who crosses at around 4000 hz).
This has an effect on how we perceive the highs in the presence region. If the midrange driver from magico is better at playing higher than the Focal midrange driver, this may explain why they sound more refined in the highs. Crossovers slopes can also be of influence.
Does someone know whats the crossover points of the Magicos ? They don’t publish that spec online it seems.
whitecamaross The magico tweeter may be more refined but you also didn't have many hours on the sopras. I think you would of liked them more after 100 hours.
Why are you keep misinforming the forum? You clearly don’t know what you are talking about (but, I already explained this to you...), and even more important, IT IS NOT THE SAME SPEAKER. The S5 Mk2 has a different tweeter than the Mk1, and a different XO (easier to drive).
I am pretty critical on nonsense, but even I try not to rain on anyone parade, especially not with false information. Just a bit of courtesy for someone who is enjoying his new speakers.
So that graph says they compress around -3db in the highs at 95db.
I’m not enough of an audio specialist to know if its a bad thing or not. If the Magico tweeter is a bit hot, maybe it’s a good thing to have the highs diminished a bit at high spl.
Nevertheless, I would sell my grandma 👵 to have the chance to own speakers like those Magico...
(Don’t worry just kidding, both my grandmas have passed away so its not an option anymore 🤭, may they rest in peace).
On this sunny sunday morning, life is beautiful, this thread is wonderful, posters are great with good ideas even if opinions differ. Enjoy it guys, and dont take this hobby too seriously.
“Deviation from linearity - Measured with a frequency sweep across the audible spectrum on axis at 2 meters.
Purpose: Shows how a speaker is stressed and if it compresses at certain frequencies as the sound-pressure level is increased.
What it tells you: As volume increases, all frequencies should rise at the same rate. However, as a speaker is stressed, compression will occur at certain frequencies. The stress may be mechanical, thermal or otherwise. This test shows those frequencies at which deviation occurs as a result of compression. ”
Shadorne, your attachment represents a dip in the high frequencies, but does this relate to a specific SPL compared to a flatter graph at lower power? Otherwise it’s just a frequency response plot - not related to power compression.
my beloved simaudio 860a power amplifier has now been listed. It is ONE HELL OF AN AMPLIFIER that many of you should not overlook. I think i will regret this one.
I can’t think of a speaker with what you asked. After owning magico, I can’t see myself going back to warm speakers. The magico tweeter can get a little hot but I also believe it’s incredibly transparent. That said, it is more refined than the focal tweeter. I think of the focal tweeter as the unfinished version of the magico tweeter. Both are beryllium.
WC, still, the 600 watts MC601s should be more than enough for the S5mkii. We are talking autoformer Mac power here, no slouch. The 200 watts Pass will not make them sing louder chunkier. Different, yes, better resolution and midrange...maybe. But power wise, I believe you are chasing an illusion.
But nevertheless, differences between those will be worth noting and discussing.
Do the D'ag Progessions use the same tech as the Momentum? And if they do.... at $38K retail, will WCSS be able to get them with a discount?
My money is on the Dan D"Agonstino Progression Monos in a comparison with the Pass Labs XA Series.
On the weekend, I sometimes have a party with Electronic Dance Music thru my setup. Club Sound that is as good as any Club I have been too.... is playing at about 3,000-4,000 watts peak. Due to the fact the Concerts are just 1/2 mile away from where I live, the neighbors don't mind.
Anyway... amplifier power and speakers that can handle it does count. On that note... amplifiers that can double power from 8 ohms/4 ohms/2 ohms and even down to 1 ohm are good for major blasting.
WCSS.... you seem to like to blast it, and I hope the NEW ROOM you will finish a year or so from now will give you the stereo system that you will be proud of. WCSS... if you like to blast it at times, I am with you all the way. Done right... it is unreal what you can accomplish in the home.
I have a porous Fireplace that is 10ft wide behind my system and it soaks up reflections real nice and runs all the way up to the 8' ceiling. The room is 18' by 30'. Speakers (Martin Logans/2 REL Subs) are almost 3' from the back wall. And there is only 8' separation between each speaker. Chair is 9' away from speakers. Most may not sit so close. I find it just right. Rock On.
In my opinion, Nelson Pass is to solid state as William Johnson was to tube amplification. I am at the other end of the power spectrum than you, but they will have to pry my SIT-1 Monos from my cold, dead fingers.
Have recently heard the new version of the Momentum monoblocks with the matching preamp. Very smooth on the TAD R1 speakers and just loads of power to spare. Be aware that they run pretty hot as their rated output is all pure Class A. I have heard the original D'ag Classic Stereo amp about a year ago and it has massive control over the bass but it does not have the finesse of some of the better SOTA amps including the Momentum gear. For example, in the same system, a Nagra Classic amp, for me and my listening buddy, was much better than the D'Agostino Classic Stereo with all other components being the same including
Wilson Sabrina's
.
I've also heard the older Momentum separates with the Wilson Sabrina's (different system and time than the one noted above) and it was just spectacular. Liked it very much but it is well out of my comfort $$ zone.
WC, I appreciate your honest assessment of the Bryston 4B cubed just above, compared to the Luxman 900u. I had the impression from your old posts that the Lux was on the warm and smooth side, but maybe I was wrong and you now say that the Lux is very neutral and very revealing and extended in the highs. Correct? If that is the case, then the real shootout will be between the Lux and the D'agostino. I met Dan over 30 years ago, bought his Audiostatics for a friend. He was indifferent to the delicate nuances of that speaker, drove it hard and rejected it solely because of the lack of bass dynamics. His sound preference is for big bass dominance. My prediction is that the Lux will win on detail, transparency although the Progressions will be more dynamic. I know you like strapped Lux monos, but I am guessing that the single stereo Lux will be the amp that best enhances the revealing nature of the Magico at a semi-reasonable price. And 2 Lux amps cost similar to the D'ag, so it is likely that 1 or even 2 Lux amps is the way to go.
Techno dude: remember one thing, the reviewer didn’t really any high horsepower amps so he wouldn’t know any better. Lastly, why would magico showcase them with monster 500 watts per channel constellation monos? Remember one thing about this game: ANY SPEAKER YOU HAVE IN YOUR HOME THAT YOU FEEL IS AMAZING WILL ALWAYS SOUND AMAZING UNTIL YOU BRING SOMETHING ELSE TO COMPARE IT TO. This is the only way you’ll know how good or bad something is. That’s the reason why I said the Focal Sopra 3 is awesome for the money. I have the magico to compare them to and they can hold their own in many areas. If I didn’t own magico then I’d be totally happy with the focals for a long time.
WCSS,Thanks for responding. Your thread is the most exciting I have ever read! Kudos to you for having the ability to have fun "like a kid in a candy store". And comparisons with the both of the items at the same time makes for a much easier conclusion. I can relate to the high you are getting. Weeee
Regarding amplifiers and the S5 mkii. I’ m not a monoblock specialist, but I think there is a strong possibility that the Magico really don’t need more juice than what the 601s are giving to express themselves fully power wise.
According to the soundstage review,a single Simaudio 870A is absolutely enough. So me think the Magicos have that controlled sound signature that makes WC believe they can do more. Sometimes we audiophiles imagine things that are just not the reality...It happenened to me also. It is also what makes this hobby exciting....
But nevertheless, it will be interesting to read WC comments about the PassLabs 200.8 vs the McIntosh 601s.
Agreed WC, that would be an awesome shootout. I also agree with others, this is your thread - do it YOUR way. Suggestions are cool, but when those suggestions turn into frustrations, etc, then it's not cool. These are your choices and your ride, and I'm happy to be a passenger. Dave
Bigdesign3: thanks for reading my thread. You are correct about agostino. I will find a pair and take them once they hit the market. It’s just a matter of waiting. I also would truely love to compare the xa200.8 against agostino monos. It would be an awesome shoot out. I would be an honor to have Nelson vs Dan in my living room.
wcss,4 day later of reading your thread. Lots of info. I like it. I also am down here in Florida and WAS a audio tester just like you. Anyway.....
D'Agostino Progression Monos I think this is the direction in Amp study. To me, the original Krell designer and his amplifiers are more on the side of a hard edge over Pass Labs. Not sure, but you may like that type of presentation over the Pass Labs products. I own three vintage Krells that have been recapped and still adore the harder edge and slam that they deliver. Just my opinion, of course. I use a tube preamp with 4 6NS7 tubes along with the Krells. And the preamp also allows for Passive output and JFET output with a touch of the remote control. The Tube output is almost always my choice, but with some material.... I can see more transparency with the other outputs. The AR REF10 is a really good choice with the SS Amps that you are testing, but there are others as you have seen with the Luxman that bring sound that is different and exciting. The
D'Agostino Progression Monos
is my best choice to find the power and slam with musicality that you and searching for. Until you try them, I'm not sure you have exhuasted anything made on this side of the Atlantic. It was so enjoyable to read thru you travels with the amplifiers. I have always wanted to experience other amplifers. Amplifiers are the substance of a good SOTA system. Without a really good high current SS Amp, you never know what your speakers can do (unless you have efficient ones that can handle SET OTL amplifiers.... Now that's another avenue. I spent 4 days soaking up every word you typed here. Freakin' awesome stuff. Had a Mark Levinson driving my Martin Logans. I thought that I would have a backup to one of my Krells. Oh No. It did not perform in a way that was conductive to the ML speakers. The soundstage was huge, but the presentation was vieled compared to the Krell. I can only say that the amplifier is one of the most important pieces to the puzzle of State of the Art music reproduction. Lastly,The company REL has been able output just about any speaker to output it's best. 2 RELs in pairs are mandatory with any Martin Logan speaker other than the Neoliths. You tested the ML 15A..... The 15A will sound an order of magnitude better with a couple of REL S5s or G1 Mk2s on the inside of them. I know you said earlier that you want nothing to do with subs, but there are $100,000 speakers out there that sound better with RELs. I know this sounds like a fanboy, but any other brand cannot bring life to a speaker like RELs can connected to the amplifier and running in stereo. I read that you bought a REL at one time, but you need 2 to play the game. Should you buy the Neoliths..... Oh yeah!! But to revisit the 15A or the CLX Art is in order with an addition as I requested with the RELs sitting beside them.
Test on my friend. I'm 61 and still get really pumped with high end audio. I have the ML Monoliths with 2 REL S3s and the Krell amp putting about 550 watts/RMS per channel at 4 ohms.Dennis
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
