techno_dude,
Sure. With all my components plugged into my previous reference conditioner, the Isotek Evo 3 Sigmas, which was already better than a regular power strip plugged into the wall, the Denali was immediately clearer. Sorry I don't remember the exact sequence of my trials, but many combinations showed the obvious superiority of the Denali in the ways you know I prefer. My outlet is the original in my 1963 building. I know I should get the kind of good outlets and the dedicated circuit to the breaker panel you have. You can get the 60 day trial from Music Direct where I bought the Denali and 2 Venom HC power cords. I had trouble reliably hearing the minute differences between the Venom HC and the Sigma HC, but the Denali is such an obvious more gigantic improvement, akin to getting a much clearer sounding amp. That's why I justified spending $4k for it. The reviews admit the greatly increased clarity compared to the prior much more expensive conditioners of Shunyata. The designer is a former NASA engineer, well acquainted with the high standards of the military. Later, top cardiologists used his equipment to reveal sensitive information in heart monitors. He is a great materials scientist whose research continues to produce better products. Read his interviews.
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jafant, you are most welcome.
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RIAA, been busy and just noticed your Harvey Mudd reference. Live long and prosper brother. |
I really like the wireworld platinum cables with Magico. I’ve tried other cables with them and I never got the wow effect as I get with these platinums. The platinum cables have a huge sound stage and detail. I don’t think the highs are rolled off but then again the magico tweeter isn’t warm. Magico is far from a warm presentation.
I can vouch for Magico and wireworld platinum synergy. I can’t vouch for platinum with other speakers.
Lastly, those of you who think cables don’t make a difference ( I was one of them in the beginning years) are so wrong. That said, it’s also relevant to how good your set up is. For example, if your set up is a Denon receiver then no a wireworld power cable won’t really make any big difference. Your gear needs to be able to let you hear these changes in order for cables to be worth it. |
viber6
I enjoy reading your posts in this thread. Feel free to keep this conversation alive, continue posting your impressions, thoughts on all things Audio as well. I concur with your Doctor Mentor's example on the HF of a Bass string.
Happy Listening!
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Viber, I never tried the Denali but I’ m interested to know more. My gear is directly plugged into an Oyaide R1 outlet ( with a dedicated circuit to the breaker panel .) Power cables are Alpha Digital and Cobra Zitron.
What are you using for ac outlet? And did you compare the sound directly plugged into the ac outlet vs using the Denali in between ?
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Hello Viber, I have sent you an email. Saluti, G.
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techno_dude,
Thanks for your input on Shunyata. I love the Venom HC power amp cable, but have mixed feelings about the Sigma HC that I tried and listened to extensively. Compared to the Venom HC it had a laid back but interesting coherent personality. The boys at Music Direct at first said the Sigma was better in every way, as a good salesman would say about more expensive items, but later they admitted that they agreed with my description of the sound characteristics. At the price, I passed on it. The Sigma HC was tried from the wall to my Shunyata Denali, and also from the Denali to the power amp. But I am really enthusiastic about the Denali, which did wonders for everything I value, with absolutely no downside. This was obvious within seconds of first hearing. It is well worth the $4000 for the horizontal version. I use the Venom HC from the wall to the Denali, and from the Denali to the power amp. Have you compared the Venom digital power cables with the new delta series and the alpha? With many high priced cables, the sound is not necessarily better than the same companies' cheaper versions. Nordost is an example. Many scientists find the theories of design from these companies questionable, so it is up to the listener to decide. Find your own balance between and combining "objectivity" (which in itself may be subjective and questionable) and "subjectivity."
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Cables are system dependent. What works well in one system, may not work well in another. Depending on the listeners perspective, Wireworld world cables can be considered "neutral" or lacking detail in the highs. I've had Wireworld Platinum cables in my system and prefer other cables to them. |
riaa,
Nothing brings people together like a common cause...and a little laughter. That was funny, thanks.
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WC, to add to my points about Wireworld or any other product, if something de-emphasizes the highs, you will hear more midrange and lower freq take prominence. This can cause delight if you are listening to a midrange dominant instrument like a soft trumpet or voice, but further listening reveals that HF harmonics are reduced, so the total sound of the instrument or the voice is missing these upper harmonics and thus a lot of information. In my early days before knowing anything about audio equipment, I heard a custom system of a doctor mentor in school. He agreed with me that accurate reproduction of HF was important for the full appreciation of the total sound from the string bass. This is because the string bass has lots of HF from the gutsy scraping of the bow on the string or the plucking in jazz pieces. His system certainly demonstrated this.
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Guido, maybe you can simply email me, and then we could communicate privately.
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Guido, how do I PM to you?
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RIAA,
I do appreciate some of your posts, providing useful information based on your experience, and later realizing the truth of what you had to say about amps and dealers, etc. So why don't you acknowledge and respect my experience as well? By the way, my work as a doctor is rooted in the search for truth about root causes of disease and better natural treatments. Most doctors are just drug pushers who don't have the knowledge and commitment that I have. In audio, I have the same goals--search for the truth. And a high proportion of scientists/mathematicians love to play musical instruments and listen to music. We are passionate about our productive pursuits in our careers and as music lovers, not self-indulgent egotists just mouthing off. It just takes more words to explain a position, so it is better to do that rather than shortening it by leaving out crucial thoughts and being superficial. A good doctor takes plenty of time with a patient to explain things. Most patients are unhappy with the insufficient amount of time that most doctors give. So it is with audio--the more input you can get, the more likely you will avoid costly mistakes.
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Hello Viber, I would not classify the ppl who are patient with our tangential discussions as "better" ppl.... Rather, exceedingly patient and polite they have been for sure with our obsessions. Why don’t you PM me, then we can continue offline, and so let this fine electronic watering hold return to its topical quest.
Saluti, G.
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Guido,
I really appreciate our dialog, and welcome the opportunity to privately communicate with you via email. Mine is russlaud@gmail.com. It is sad that several people here don't appreciate our sophisticated discussion and are just nasty about it. I will NOT start a new thread, because our comments are very relevant to THIS thread, and the some of the better people here do appreciate my insights. It was YOU who introduced us to the Merrill Element, which has the potential to be a real game changer. That stimulated lots of valuable discussion here, which I hope WC and others have found useful.
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WC, be careful in your enthusiasm for the Wireworld stuff. If the highs are relatively rolled off, you will subtract information from recordings, even if it may sound more pleasant and likably coherent. Further listening will verify this.
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I know it hurt you to type that Rox. Much appreciated. I LOVE MCINTOSH...now we're even. Kumbaya Back to our regularly scheduled programming....(fingers crossed). |
riaa,
I can hardly believe what I'm about to say...but I agree with you completely!
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Stick around Ron. I’ve got pretty interesting stuff coming in the next 30 days or so. I’ve been crazy busy with my daughter and work. I actually hadn’t listened critically for the past two weeks until today.
That said, there will be some Monos coming for my mágicos. Oh, guess what I saw today at the wireworld factory? Magico s3 .... that’s what they are using I believe to voice their speaker cables. I was shocked actually. |
I use Nordost Red Dawn Leif Series for speakers cables. Very very good value, they do compete with much pricier cables. Not at all the same cables as the old Nordost series. 20 solid core conductors with silver plating, you just don’t need more technology in speakers cables. Remember that most speakers use normal ofc cable in their cabinet. Normally, the trick is in the quality of the connectors, bare wire being the best way to do it but not practical in most cases.
You should try those for fun one day, I would not bet my money on the wireworld. But I can be very wrong, sure the difference in price is high.
I found the Shunyata Alpha digital power cable to be absolutety magical on my dac and preamp. I don’t know what they put in there but I ve falled on my buttocks when I eard it on my dac. It cleans the sound like not other, and doesnt mess with dynamics. You should also try one on your Esoteric. I ´m sold on Shunyata for power cables , they are imho unbeatable for the $.
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Ok guys, I brought the wireworld platinum eclipse 7 speaker cables home and the difference is beyond belief. It’s either the magico or the cables, but I can’t believe how much more coherent everything sounds. The highs became more relaxed and the “hotness” of the tweeter has came down quite a bit. The entire presentation just grew in size, the mids are so much more focused and the bass seems to have much more presence in my room. Overall, this is such an awesome improvement that I’m buying the platinum 7 xlr for my source and amplifiers. Im baffled with the match I hear between Magico and wireworld platinum.
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This used to be my favorite thread....now I quickly scroll through it. |
I don’t mind reading Viber s postings which are very interesting. His last post about treble was very good. When WC doesnt post and takes a break, I’ m sure he doesn’t mind us discussing things a bit.
Share the hifi love guys, not the hifi hate. This forum is about having fun. Moderators are very kind because they only erase the posts that are abusive, and generally let discussions go by themselves . This is a good thing. |
Viber, our friends raise a very valid point. If you wish to discuss further about issues tangential to WC's quest, please open a new thread.
Regards, G. |
Jetter, This has been addressed by Numerous people already. Some people just like to hear themselves speak. IT is not going away. You would think a Doctor would spend more time treating patients than CREATING new patients who now need therapy due to having to endure his self indulgent posts on this thread. Perhaps a Go Fund me page for a Mail Order Bride..or at the very least for an adoption at the local dog pound is in order. Not sure I want the blood on my hands thou when the Bride or Dog takes their own life from listening to this incessant over the top babbling. Maybe we can find one of HARRY MUDD's 50 wives from that Star Trek Episode and they can talk themselves to death. Its sad really. The OP has put 2 years worth of time and effort into this thread and somebody decides to take over the thread and drive most of the "subscribers" away. If this was an episode of Survivor I have no doubt who the majority would vote off the Island. Im sure I would get some votes too for my NE Coast bluntness. |
viber, its customary when you are interested in discussing a subject not directly relating to the thread to start your own. Especially so when your posts are longer than 5 or 6 of the ops. |
Guido,
Thanks for your informative post last night. When do you think you will be able to hear/review the production version of Element 118, or 116, 114? Sometimes gratitude for surviving what could have been major devastation leads you to appreciate what you have even more. I am reminded of the Thanksgiving slow movement of Beethoven's String Quartet op 132, particularly in the sensitive recording of the Budapest Quartet about 1963, my favorite.
Despite our kindred spirits, I just have a little disagreement on interpretation of treble response. You describe how the Element 118 relative to the Veritas had significantly "greater resolution of very low level detail revealing/exposing harmonics." This would not be possible if "treble overpressure dampens the perception of low level harmonics." Therefore, to be consistent, this implies that the 118 did NOT have treble OVERPRESSURE. Rather, it implies that the 118's treble was naturally extended, which also creates "larger staging in 3 dimensions, clearer images." If the treble were artificially emphasized and peaky, the soundstage would suffer. This is analogous to italics print, which is sort of like peaky print. If the eye doctor's chart were done in italics, the 20/20 line would not be as well resolved/visible as it is in the usual boldface print. Also, "treble intermodulation distortion" is usually thought of as an objective lab measurement, so I am not sure how to interpret your use of this term. You have also described the "bristles" that you like in live music. I also like these "bristles". Although a subjective word, "bristles" implies to me a sort of jarring perception of small percussive edges in live sound. These edges are high frequency phenomena, not distortions. Overly smooth sound is heard in the 15th row of the concert hall, where much of the HF is rolled off and dissipated, and "bristles" are therefore smoothed over. To me, overly smooth sound is boring, since it is missing much of the startling clarity of the natural real thing, heard close up in all its revealing glory. What do you think of my discussion of the 2 pieces I cited--Lohengrin and In the Steppes? Another example is the Rimsky-Korsakoff Russian Easter Overture. I played this in high school orchestra, and was astounded to see high harmonic passages in the first violin part, which are never heard in most recordings when played on typical rolled off audio systems. These "harmonics" are produced by lightly touching the fingerboard instead of pressing down, creating much higher fundamentals. For example, on the E string, press firmly with the 3rd finger in first position, and you get an A with fundamental at 880Hz. But lightly touch the string at the same position, and you get an E with fundamental at 2520 Hz, with harmonics of that 2520 that go much higher. These phenomena are revealed in the Wagner, Borodin and Rimsky pieces. But they must be reproduced properly, with full HF extension to reveal the truth. Many audiophiles with insufficient musical experience misinterpret natural HF extension for "excessive treble." The treble is NOT excessive in most cases, if you have the true frame of reference to live music, heard reasonably closeup.
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Welcome back WCSS, this thread devolves into many side discussions when you’re not around to post and keep it on-topic. |
I’ve tried different brands and I keep going back to wireworld. |
I just ordered my first set of wireworld cables (interconnects) for my secondary system. Hope there as good as you’ve experienced. |
Update: Tomorrow i will be picking up a pair of the wireworld Platinum Eclipse 7 speaker cables. FINALLY i am going to be trying a cable that will be worthy of the rest of the my front end. I am a big wireworld fan. especially their silver series and up. |
Hello Viber6, we were fortunate... The eye passed some 60 miles North of us when Florence had already been downgraded to a tropical storm... Thankfully no material damage... Only lots of anxiety before and during evac.
Now, back to our beloved topic...
The Element 118 prototype, even in its state of incomplete break-in, comfortably exceeded the performance of the original Merrill Veritas... THis is not surprising... Veritas was an excellent "entry level" NCore NC1200 amp designed to exceed the expected performance for its $12K price several years ago. It did that splendidly.
On the other hand, Element 118 is far from being an entry level device. Its design is complex and features a lot of "moving" parts, each contributing to the synergy of the whole. In that GAN transistors are one of many technologies that contribute to the whole, but neither GaN nor any other component parts or circuit features are the sole contributors to the result..... It's the synergy of the whole that counts... Or in other words, "'Tis all in the handle!"
If I compare the two devices in my mind, I find some obvious differences.... Element 118 is significantly quieter than Veritas, has larger staging in the three dimensions, clearer images, greater resolution of very low level detail revealing/exposing harmonics.... And comfortably greater authority.
However, the relative immaturity of break-in and the fact that Element 118 was a prototype may have introduced some artifacts.... As I mentioned, treble might have been a little overpressured... This does not necessarily reveal low level tonal components like harmonics... Rather, treble overpressure can dampen the perception of low level harmonics. Similarly, there were still faint traces of intermodulation... You could hear them mostly on ff orchestral or string cadenzas... Typical on 7th chords built on the dominant... A byproduct of faint treble intermodulation was also a bit of over-punchiness in transients. But as I said already several times, what I heard was only a prototype with incomplete break-in... And yet, once this was factored in, ELement 118 was alredy extremely promising.
When I reluctantly sent back Element 118 to Merril, the amps were still evolving significantly. So, Because of the likely temporary/transitory nature of the artifacts I detected, it would be completely meaningless for me to attempt to contrast the Element 118 with the Rowland M925, which I have had in my system for several years and, once nicely warmed up, is totally stable. Saluti, G.
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Guido, I hope you are safe and you didn't sustain losses due to Florence. In NY, we just had a moderate rain yesterday.
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My apologies @Viber6, I have been distracted during the last little while because of the Florence evac.... Now, back home, I am buried in work that accumulated.... Never the less, I will try to address your questions tonight.
Regards, G. |
bill_k, agree with you. Thanks for your insights. At $36K, careful scrutiny is certainly appropriate.
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Guidocorona,
I am on pins and needles awaiting your opinion about whether the Merrill Element 118 had detail and resolution that blew away the Veritas, for example. Or even the Rowland 925 which you own or have heard? All this technical speculation is interesting, but the bottom line is the sound, which only you have heard.
You raised an interesting point about whether amps with extended or even excessive high freq (HF) are suitable for sostenuto (sustained) music or just for percussive music. A few wonderful pieces come to mind to discuss this. First, the prelude to act 1 to Wagner's Lohengrin, one of my top favorites that tearfully melts me. (For those not familiar, the famous melody of "here comes the bride" is from Lohengrin.) The violin section is divided into several high note parts to begin the piece. High harmonics on top of high fundamentals. They are played sostenuto at a soft piano dynamic level with a few soft crescendos. This music is truly celestial, so maximal resolution of HF is of utmost importance to appreciate the beauty of this piece. As a good pun, celestial qualities are associated with highs (HF) as well as the "high" altitude. I have not played this piece in any of my orchestras, and I have not seen the score (written sheet music), so I won't be surprised that when I do get to see the score, there will be lots of details revealed that even I have not yet perceived. That's why I say to people who like laid back rolled off HF sound, you sadly don't realize what you are missing. Second, Borodin, From the Steppes of Central Asia, which I have played in orchestras from when I was very young to more recently. It opens with high harmonics of HF in the violins at a soft pianissimo level. It starts with a high harmonic on the E string, then modulates to the high harmonic on the A string. The instant moment of that modulation is an awesome experience, greatly realized by full HF revelation. These HF harmonics serve as background to the midrange theme played by the flute, then English horn and later by the other wind instruments. As a violinist immersed in this music at close range, I was smitten by the brilliant revelation of these sounds. Its beauty is tremendously enhanced by the HF brilliance, and again anyone who prefers laid back sound is sadly missing out.
On a slightly more technical level, sostenuto (sustained) sound may sound smooth and continuous, but on a micro level, there are fine percussive elements in it. For example, violinists use sticky rosin on the bow to get traction of the horsehair to the string. To get a sustained sound, it is required to continuously and gently scrape the string, all very skillfully to avoid unpleasant harsh scratching and crunching. The gentle scrape produces plenty of HF which actually go way beyond 20 Khz. If you listen to any violinist at very close range, a large part of the total sound is that scraping noise. Also, wind instruments like the French horn produce sound via turbulence (a kind of percussion) of the air flow, and papers by James Boyk show a lot of HF up to 9000 Hz in the French horn when it is usually considered a mellow, midrange instrument. So my conclusion is that maximal revelation of HF (of course other lower freq as well) in electronics is essential for full appreciation of any music, whether percussive or sostenuto.
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Of course the GaN devices are in the output stage and therefore in the signal path, I never meant to infer otherwise. What I was questioning was the actual signal bandwidth of the complete amp design, since with their confirmed low pass filtering it will be lower than their potential GHz switching speed. I can't predict what their signal bandwidth is or how it will compare to the Spectral amps, but generally agree with Al's post above. |
Viber6, yes, it appears to me that GaN transistors are used in the output stages of the new Merrill amps. And consequently they are directly in the signal path, and have nothing to do with the power supply. However, it also appears that the amps are operating in class D, or some variant thereof. (In addition to the power-to-weight ratio of the amp being strongly suggestive of that, the designer specifically states so at the link Bill provided). Which means that the transistors in the output stage of the amp are being switched, at high speed. I’m pretty sure that Bill sees it the same way.
And although the transistors themselves are capable of being switched at GHz frequencies, that says nothing about what speed they are actually being switched at. All I would infer from the writeups is that the signal bandwidth is likely to be higher than the bandwidth of all or nearly all other audio amplifiers, probably including the Spectrals.
Regards,
-- Al
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bill_k,
I get the impression from your link that the Merrill's GaN Ghz transistors are in the signal path, not as the switching freq of the power supply. This implies that the circuit has Ghz bandwidth with the appropriate highest speed, which then gets low pass filtered at the output for 20-20 Khz or whatever audio bandwidth. Merrill is implying that this amp design yields the fastest speed, according to my reading of it.
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bill_k,
OK, I will read your links, thanks. I was under the impression that the GaN transistors Merrill is using are themselves Ghz devices, whereas the conventional transistors Spectral is using are Mhz devices. The devices must be the fastest possible in order to get negligible signal delays, which enable use of more feedback if desired to reduce distortion further, which is the approach used by Soulution and Mola Mola. Merrill avoids use of feedback, since he claims that speed is maximized this way. I am not a technical expert to favor one of these approaches over the other, but in the end, educated listening will be the judge. Of course, since audio signal output is only 20-20Khz, it is OK to filter the output, once the internal signal processing is handled with speed and accuracy. |
Thanks, Bill. The one reference to GHz speeds I see at that link is a statement that "the Gallium Nitride Transistors can operate in the Gigahertz range." I'm sure that is true, but of course that statement provides no indication of how fast the transistors are switched in the amp.
Best regards,
-- Al
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4425 9-18-2018
All ARC preamps are really not designed to drive subwoofers except possibly REL.
The line-level input impedance of many and I believe most REL subs is 10K, well below ARC’s usual load recommendation of 20K minimum for their line stages and preamps. The input impedance of the power amp, that would be paralleled with the input impedance of the sub for one of the two signals in the preamp’s balanced pair of output signals if the power amp is connected via XLR and the sub via RCA, would further reduce the 10K load impedance. The speaker-level connections provided by REL subs would work well with ARC power amps, but there is an important caveat. ARC fully balanced tube power amps typically have their circuit ground connected to the 4 ohm tap, not to the common tap. So in the case of a fully balanced ARC stereo tube amp the black ground wire of a REL sub’s speaker-level input should be connected to the 4 ohm tap. The red and yellow signal wires should be connected to the 8 ohm tap of the corresponding channel, or alternatively to the 16 ohm tap if 16 ohm taps are provided. In the case of monoblocks I would consult with ARC as to what to do with the black wire. On another note, Bill_k makes a good point about the reference in the Merrill literature to GHz speeds. As far as I can see none of the information provided at their website makes clear what parameter is in the GHz range (and for that matter I wasn’t able to even find a clear statement that it applies to the switching frequency), and a specification of signal bandwidth is not provided. Regards, -- Al |
@viber6 - Regarding high bandwidth amp designs, with all due respect I believe you may be confusing two different things with your statement: "The coming Merrill Elements have Ghz bandwidth to put Spectral’s Mhz bandwidth to shame." Spectral electronics actually have a true signal bandwidth in the MHz range, but I don’t see any signal bandwidth even specified in the detailed specifications on Merrill’s site for his new Element amps. The mention of their GHz speed that I’ve seen is in reference to the switching frequency for their Class D operation, not the amplifier’s signal bandwidth. Those are two entirely different things and even though they’re both specified in frequencies are not comparable. If the Merrill Element amps truly have a signal bandwidth in the GHz range I would think that they would detail that in their given specifications. Since Class D amps generally require a filter on their output to remove the high switching frequency ’noise’, it’s unlikely that they would have a signal bandwidth that extends linearly to anywhere near their switching frequency. |
I know that practical considerations have no place here but I can’t help myself. When contemplating a Ref 6 vs the Lux I would not disregard two issues:
1. The 6550 tubes in the Ref 6 power supply offer potential significant damage should one blow. More risk than a Ref amp losing a tube. This is straight from ARC.
2. All ARC preamps are really not designed to drive subwoofers except possibly REL. Very few matches might work.
The Lux has many wonderful attributes with no downside. Blind fold test them and see if there is superiority in the Ref 6 worth taking on some liabilities. Just a thought. No agenda here I assure you.
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rickdog,
What a fanciful thought, interesting! That brings me back to my contention that present audio technology for music systems is primitive compared to NASA and similar sophisticated high tech applications. High tech is objective, unlike the subjectively oriented desires of many audiophiles. As I said many times, the ideal audio goal is to combine objective measurements and descriptions with subjective observations. With more education about the nature of real-life sounds and ability to describe accurately what you hear, the subjective perceptions become more objectified. But when too many audiophiles dismiss the need for objectivity and just go by their subjective whims, the electronics industry doesn't take them seriously and moves on to the much more advanced objective requirements in aerospace, computer and other high tech fields.
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Has anyone attempted to modify one of the amps used by NASA in radio teloscopy? Since the entire energy collected by all radio telescopes in history is less than that generated by a snowflake hitting the ground, you know they must be clean. |
rickdog,
That may be true, but neither of those amps would be of much use to WC unless he decides to experiment with more efficient speakers. (horns?)
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