My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
@sqitis I no longer have a dedicated preamp. I'm back to just a home theater processor - currently, the Theta Casablanca IV with Xtreme 3 DACs. Come back here and let us know if you do the upgrade for the SLP-05. Dave |
Hello Viber, as I might have mentioned a few months ago, the only exposure I have had to the Merrill Oganessom series has been a 1188 engineering prototype for a few days during last Spring... As I did not have the time to conduct a proper break-in, I am not in a position to comment about performance of the final product. Even more so, I will not venture conjectures about Element 116 and Element 114... I try to limit comments on devices of which I have no direct experience. Concerning Rowland M535 in bridged versus stereo mode.... I have given priority to breaking in the devices in bridged mode so to ensure that both chassis would reach optimum conditions at the same time. Once I have concluded my observations in bridged mode, I will connect one of the chassis in stereo mode. The good news is that M535 seems to be evolving and maturing quite a bit faster than most amps I have had in my system. In the mean time, The degree of transparent resolution, harmonic exposure, and essential lack of artifacts makes me not be terribly concerned about theoretical shortcomings of bridged operations... Yet, the proof shall be in the proverbial pudding... That is when I eventually connect a unit in stereo mode I'll have an idea of any performance difference. Worth pointing out though that Jeff Rowland is extremely conservative... He told me that he has implemented M535 as easy bridged-ready amps because he had verified that their high prformance level in bridged mode warrants such implementation.... I am conjecturing that this might have to do with he having designed for M535 distortion minimization circuitry evolved from what he first developed for the M625 S2 stereo amp. Connection into bridge mode is as simple as connecting the mono line level source to the XLR input instead of the two stereo XLR inputs... Connecting a speaker cable to the mono output terminal instead of the two stereo terminals... And flipping a single toggle switch in the back of the amp to bridged operations.
By the way, M535 has been design in such a way that gain structure in bridged mode is identical to stereo mode... According to the designer, you can leave preamp volume at identical levels for stereo and bridged operations. Regards, G.
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Guido, I look forward to your review. I also want you to address some concerns I have about bridgeable amps. First, there is double the amount of circuitry in the chain for each channel, which would decrease the transparency, detail, resolution at moderate levels. Of course, you can get 4X the power into 8 ohms, which is an advantage for some people. But subtle resolution occurs at power levels of a fraction of 1 watt for speakers of average efficiency, so I would think that for this criterion, the bridged version is at a disadvantage. Second, bridgeable amps don’t like very low impedance lows, such as from electrostatics at HF. Most companies advise not to use bridged amps into impedances of less than 4. For your Vienna dynamic speakers, this is likely not a consideration, although I read that ARC tube amps exhibit tighter sound from the 8 ohm taps than the 4 ohm taps, when driving Wilsons whose nominal impedance is 4. The ARC tube amp may not be relevant to your evaluation of the Rowland SS amp, however. So I request that you include your evaluation of the Rowland M535 in the area of resolution at moderate levels, comparing standard setup to bridged. Also, how does a single M535 compare to a 525? [ You might have seen Merrill’s August announcement that the stereo Element 114 has similar speed/resolution as the 118/116, at a projected retail price of $9-12K. He claims that the 118/116 have somewhat better spatial qualities than the 114, but the differences are small. See his post as the first entry after searching A-gon under Merrill Element. Read his statements several replies down. Of course, the 114 will have less power--we don’t know yet how much. But the 114 looks to be an outstanding value for a SOTA contender. My guess is 150 watts into 8 ohms, which might keep doubling as impedance load is halved. This should satisfy most people who care more about quality than quantity, at an attractive price. |
Hello wesc, so happy that the Masterset speaker setup process is bringing your system to new hights... Not at all surprised! Meantime, for anyone interested... I am preparing a writeup of the new Rowland M535 bridgeable amps... I have bridged a pair delivering 700W per chassis into my relatively wilding Vienna Acoustics Die Muzik. Stunning for the musical resolution and the sheer proportions and transparency of the stage... At just below $12K for the pair they are delivering music in a way that I would have only expected from amps several times their price... Much more to come in the scribblings that I will post on Agon... But so much of M535 remind me of the M925 monos... They definitely are creations of the same mind. Might still be a couple weeks to complete my project... I have one more week of real work to do (Sighs!) before 25 days of Christmas vacations... Will complete the scribblings during my vacations. Saluti, G.
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WC, Oops, I think I made some mistakes in my previous post about the Dag integrated. It seems that any input goes through the entire electronics, which is the tone control circuit, preamp stage, power amp stage. If you used your Ref 10 into the Dag, you got a 4th stage of amplification and circuitry, but at least you got the benefits of the tone control circuit. Not having a manual or any conversation with a Dag dealer, it appears to me that you cannot bypass any stage of the Dag--you just take the integrated as a complete integrated package. As such, if you don't want any more power, it does everything else you want superlatively. Since tone controls are important for the Neo, an alternative is the Lux preamp with its tone controls. I don't know of any other SOTA preamp with tone controls. You could still use your Ref 10 to evaluate SOTA powerful amps, but to see if you can improve on the Dag integrated, you need a preamp like the Lux with tone controls. The other way would be to get a separate EQ like the Rane or digital EQ which other people here are knowledgeable about. That opens up a larger selection of SOTA preamps to consider, or even still use your Ref 10. But if you don't want to bother with a stand alone EQ, the Lux with its tone controls would be a great way to go. The complete Lux package of preamp and amp would challenge the Dag integrated. If you want more power, you could double up on the M900u monos. However, using bridged amps means that allowable speaker loads double, so although bridged amps have more power into 8 ohms, they are more uncomfortable into 1 ohm. Also, although bridged amps give more power into reasonable loads, the extra circuitry reduces the detail and transparency at moderate volumes. At least a single M900u is relatively cheap, to give you an idea of the tonal qualities of the complete Lux package versus the Dag package. |
mrdecibel, Sorry if you thought I was criticizing you. Actually the opposite. I appreciate hearing about your Rane and your other valuable observations. I am still interested in purchasing your unit, if you could just send me a picture or 2, and your terms. Most importantly, you have had an open mind about using it in your system, but you prefer not employing it. I respect people with open minds who then decide my ideas are not for them, but people with audiophile religion who refuse to try something because it goes against their beliefs, are missing out.. For WC, both he and I recognize the value of tone controls to boost the HF of his Neo, whether a preamp with tone controls, Rane, or digital EQ. And for his age, he has had remarkable experience. |
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@wesc the Neoliths are all passive. No built in amps inside of any kind so the amplifier needs to drive the entire speaker. Yes if you go to their site you’ll see the Neolith drops to .5 ohm at 20khz. This is needed regardless of the volume level. The amplifier receives the load throughout the entire frequency range. The only way the speaker won’t drop to .5ohm is if you play music that does not have any frequencies at 20khz. |
I have question about the power demands of the Neolith? At one point WCSS says they can dip .5 ohms. Is that something that happens when playing at the very highest volume? I was reading about the GamuT M250i mono amplifiers. The absolute sound review. In the intro I came across this quote. GamuT says the M250i is safe with loads ranging all the way down to 1.5 Ohms, which is the point at which GamuT, in its own words, draws “a line between what is a loudspeaker load, and what is a short circuit” I don’t understand the speaker - amplifier - volume control relationships. It sounds like .5 ohm is an impossible load. Yet WCSS is achieving amazing sound... the Neolith’s have amplification for the bass correct? So the amp is driving the panel only? WCSS please address this as you please, and as you bring in the higher power amps. |
So I spent the last 3-4 hours setting the neoltihs. I’m going to say I now have the speaker I thought I had in my hands all along. Huge improvement is an understatement. Speakers are now sounding massive with THE BEST IMAGING I’ve ever heard here. This is the first time I can hear things happening in songs I had heard about 3,000 times. Instruments actually walk across the stage from speaker to speaker. Things move left to right in songs that I thought this same instrument was being played by both speakers before and it turns out that this isn’t the case. Speakers are 59.5 inches from the front wall (measuring from the center of the panel) and they are about 46 inches away from the sidewalls (measuring from center of the panel). I essentially brought them in almost a foot inward so they are now about 5.5-6ft apart (measuring from the inside of cabinet). I actually did not want to do this when I first put them in the room because I thought they needed to be as far as possible from each other in order to not hurt the imaging. Well, I learned something new today; these monsters work just fine in a mid size room and although I could have made my life easier by buying renaissance, I wouldn’t have the massive slam, dynamics and midbass from these Neolith. What do you get by buying neoltihs that you don’t get with the clx or 15a? DYNAMICS, MID BASS and FAR BETTER woofer and panel integration. |
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I rather take the Hegel H30 over the pass 350.8. Sorry to do this to Nelson but he dropped the ball with the 350.8. I rather own the 350.5. More musicality and sweetness. The Hegel H30 beats both and it does it quite easily. Whatever pass labs is going to do next to replace the .8 series they need to truly think hard and long because I feel that the .8 series was a failure. I’m pretty much mentally retired from the .8 series from pass. Ain’t a d@mn thing I like about it. Luxman 900u mops and sweeps the floor with the 350.8. Actually, the Luxman 900u demolishes the 350.8 in every single area. |
Hope everyone enjoyed their TG. viber6, a few things......the Rane is a 30 band eq, not 32 band, has never been a 32 band eq. Damping and reducing the resonance of the Rane ( which you and dguitarnut are having fun with ), has substantially improved the sq characteristics ( you are definitely blind to it ). Still, far from my Luminous. Not close. As far as my " not requiring eq " ( although hard for you to believe ), I am fine with all of my recordings as they are ( which is why I wanted the Luminous, to hear more of what was on the recordings ). My speaker / room / listening seat situation, are all beyond satisfactory to me. No tone control or eq needed, or wanted. BTW, The ME60 had 3 production runs ( mine is the 2nd ), and then the ME60S, which is now also discontinued ( refer to Rane ME60 - Ken Rockwell ). So, I would like to be removed from the Rane as a topic, as I do not feel it belongs in the company of the equipment being used by wc ( I feel my Luminous unit does ). Lastly, I know you feel WC has caught up, and surpassed, many of us in experience. I have to disagree. Yes, I never owned 80 K speakers, never owned 60 k monoblocks, never owned 3 k power cords, but am familiar with much of it. And as I have stated recently, more power to him and his journey. But I am a happy and content listener, and he has yet to be. So as I see it, he has not reached that level of experience. Thank you all, and enjoy ! MrD. |
WC, It is interesting that the Lux C900 preamp plus the M900 amp is a directly competitive package to the Dag integrated, although at a much cheaper price. First, the preamp has tone controls, like the Dag. Second, the power of 150 watts into 8 ohms keeps doubling to 1200 into 1, similar to Dag. Both packages would be excellent for the Neos in the HF, although the dynamics of your music tend to be more in the lower freq where you would probably want more power. For now, it would be informative to first get the Lux preamp only, since your finances are tight. I just don't want to have to see you sell the Dag just to be able to afford more trials. The Dag may ultimately be a keeper. So you could use the Lux preamp into the Dag, to see how the tonality and other characteristics compare. First, keep the tone controls flat, to see the inherent characters of each preamp section. Then try the Lux treble at the maximum 5:00 position to compare to the Dag's max treble. The design of the tone controls and the range will probably be the biggest factor in the difference between the Dag and Lux. For example, you might prefer the Lux for its more extended HF at 3:00 compared to the Dag with just a slight +1 or +2. Then you might prefer the Dag at +4 compared to the Lux at 1:00. This will be a real dog fight since both units reportedly have similar tonal character. But the Lux preamp will give you an opportunity to try more powerful amps. Right now, there is no flat (without tone controls) preamp plus power amp that will give the needed HF boost to the Neos. Transparency is not as important as tonal balance, so I feel that some EQ is needed. You have also observed this with the Neo, although every speaker benefits from EQ. Of course, the total Lux package in a compelling value, but only if the sound is preferable to the Dag. That can only be determined by hearing both excellent packages side by side. This will be a real dog fight. If your finances don't permit this, you will get a good idea of the differences by just getting the Lux preamp. In general, power amps have the same character as preamps from the same designer. I have a hunch that the Dag is more neutral. It would be informative to get RIAA's opinion on Dag versus ARC, so don't get rid of the Dag because it really may the best thing out there for you. Also, I feel there is no absolute requirement to get the preamp and amp from the same company. As long as the input impedance of the power amp is greater than 10X the output impedance of the preamp, you can mix and match for great results. So you may prefer the Lux preamp with the power amp of your choice, and that might be the ultimate way to go. |
bill, The Absolare was driving Raidho speakers. In the past week I've listened to Martin Logan CLXs, Raidhos, and Dynaudio speakers and several amps. I have no interest in changing anything I have. I'll continue to listen to different components as a means to educate myself on how some components sound. |
@ricred1 - Haven't heard the Absolare myself but have only read good things about it. Did you hear it driving your speakers? From what I know about your MAs I don't think the Absolare would have sufficient power for them either. Since your wife likes them so much there would be an easy solution, also upgrade your speakers to be a better match! ;~) |
I believe everything is about system matching, but the best amplifier I've ever heard by far is the Absolare 845 mono-amps. They have a very detailed, rich, and natural sound quality unlike anything I've ever heard. At 52W I just don't think they have enough current for your speakers. My wife and I listened to the Absolare again today compared to an Esoteric amp and my wife just can't stop talking about how great the Absolare sounds. |
@ WCSS The Plinius SA 103 is rated @ 125 watts per channel in both class A and class AB mode. I know pure class A is a different animal but I thought you were looking for more power not less. The Plinius SB 301 mk2 that I bought from you a while back would have been nice to try with the Neoliths. Is your plan to try and pick up a 2nd SA 103 and run them in mono? |
@WCSS, I'm interested in your take on the SA-103! I just received my upgraded SA-102 and it's pretty much the same hopped up SA-103. SO far with about 40hrs on it, it's really starting to open and glow with warmth and layers of imaging. Everything just got better with the upgrade. I had a matching second SA-102 and sold it and now I'm trying to buy it back so that I can upgrade it and go back to 400w Class A mono's. Now that is some serious current. I feed my Plinius with a Cary SLP-05 and it matches up pretty darn good. Tube rolling matters with the SLP for sure. Now I'm on the hunt for some matching cables.......I've really been wanting to try the Luxman M900 or M700 with my SLP and B&W 801N's to see how that sounds Did you happen to pick up that black SA-103 that just sold on Agon? |
Viber6 and other posters on this blog need to contact Sound Insight to hear then new GT Audio Works planar speakers with the open baffle servo subs -as they have been redesigned and are vatly improved Over past models. They were exhibited at Capital audio fest 2018 and received rave reviews from Avs showrooms on their reviewers view video At the 7 minute 20 second Mark of the video. Other great reviews were from Part Time Audiophile, Myles Astor from Audionirvana and Todd Anderson from AV Nirvana. |
wesc, I am curious about the sound characteristics of your Rega 8/Apheta 2. Probably the apheta cartridge makes the most difference, more than the difference between the RP8 and RP10 tables. What other TT/cartridges did you compare with the Rega? I read that the Rega TT/cartridge combo has brilliant clarity, but I am interested in your opinion. |
WC, Right now, the 2 most important parts of your system are the Neo and the tone control circuit of the Dag. I hope your Dag has the ability to use the tone control plus preamp section, and then output that into other power amps. If not, then even the world's best preamp/power amp without the tone controls will not be as good as what you presently have. Also, is it possible to use your Dag as a stand alone power amp with use of another input preamp? Again, I don't think that this option will be as good as the complete Dag with its tone controls intact. Thus, the tone controls or another form of EQ is vital. |
duitarnut, Funny. I can see mrdecibel advising using the Cornish hen on a resonance-free Rane silver platter, on a resonance-free dining table. Make sure the meal is smooth so you don’t have resonances of lingering gastro-esophageal reflux. And yes, let’s be thankful for our freedoms. Make money honestly and try to get value for your money by evaluating what sound you get for your honestly made dollar and hard work. |
@greginn Thanks for your comments. As far as the Diablo vs Luxman 509x, yes I said that it really depends on the speaker. I personally think the Luxman is just incredible for the money spent. That said, the integrated will give you a lot of the 900u combo and I could even say it’s just as good unless you have hungry speakers. By going from the Diablo to the Luxman you give up muscularity and gain mids with more sweetness. You also gain more musicality that makes you not want to get off your seat. Both are outstanding pieces. |
@wesc thank you for posting here and following my journey. I will be revisiting some amplifiers from the past just to see how they will do with my Neoliths. For instance, I have a Plinius sa103 coming next week because I want to see how it does with my Neolith. I want to try class a with them. I wish my room was as big as yours wesc. Lovely room you got ! Keep following my journey because it’s going to get better and better. Yes I know some people will have their opinion, but I respectfully either agree or disagree with what anyone says. At the end of the day, everyone should just sit and watch my struggles and wins because YOU NEVER KNOW when you’ll be able to purchase some of this stuff and actually bring it to your own home. Stay tuned for my impressions of the Plinius 103 with my neoltihs ! |
WC, Thanks for spending the time and money to keep informed about your journey. I suspect that many of us are living vicariously through your process. I have been going through a similar process but on a much, much smaller scale. Having just sold my Gryphon Diablo 300 and now auditioning the Luxman L-509X, I find that your previous posts about these two integrated amps are “spot on”. Unless you need massive bass slam, the L-509x has to be the deal of the century-given its performance and features. I am now at the point of deciding whether to keep the L-509X or bite the bullet and get the Luxman 900 combo. It has been the only gear that has drawn me in emotionally to the music without trying to analyze the sound. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family! |
I have been following this thread for months and am pretty sure I have read the entirety. I cannot tell you how helpful and entertaining it is. It’s an amazing journey and I appreciate that it is a real world experience and you say exactly what you think, but as you make new discoveries you acknowledge and update your opinion. I am so happy you have the Neoliths in house, your journey was always going to require it. I cannot wait to see where it goes. I also want to give a shout out to guidocorona. The master set speaker placement was an amazing experience for me. It focused the sound in my room so much I actually had to back off a bit. My system... First I have a huge room. I live in an old store front, my entire place is basically one room. Starts out 18 wide expands to 22 wide is over 6o feet long. 13 foot tin ceilings. We tend to have music on all day and rarely sit in the sweet spot, although I do have specific vinyl listening session in the sweet spot. Esoteric F-05 integrated. I have to say the reason I brought this integrated in was that it has Bass - Midrange - Treble tone controls. Sonus Faber Olympica III REL T7i sub bass hooked up to the B speaker terminals with the neutrik connection, Audience Ohno cable. Acoustic Zen Satori Bi-Wire Spaker Cables Auralic Altair Wireless streaming Dac Rega Rp8 with apheta II cartridge I have paused here. I realize high end audio is such a process and an education. There is so much to learn, and my ears need to learn too, following your journey has been very helpful. ps... I love it when you post your wife’s opinion. My wife has better hearing and a different sonic taste from me, so when your wife chimes in I find her opinion valuable. |
Viber, since it’s Thanksgiving aren’t you going to state that Cornish hens are every bit as tasty and traditional as a turkey specially when served on a Rane silver platter? Happy thanksgiving y’all......don’t blow out your Tektons or burn up your dinky little amps while showing off your giant killer system to family and friends! Lol....this is fun.......... My thanks to all in this thread for the entertainment provided and the good fortune we have to be free and able to enjoy good music and the means to buy our toys. And last but not least we all can be thankful for having some of our hearing left and that the tinnitus has not worsened. Again Happy Thanksgiving! |
RIAA, Although your football is exciting, making music is a similar physical activity, although not as draining. Then again, watch the sweat off a conductor's face. Once I played the very fast opening movement of the Beethoven Kreutzer Sonata during a summer performance. I brought a towel to take care of me after I flew into it like a race car driver. Just search on youtube to see and hear how exciting a piece it is. After a brief meditative intro, it takes off. Oh yeah, I have been going to the Princeton Record Exchange for over 25 years. I live in NYC, but am in the area on the weekend. I would go through the bins on the floor for 3 hours, then go to Thomas Sweet for their SOTA blending machine for ice cream with your chosen additions. My favorite was sweet cream ice cream with malt balls, Reese's pieces. Aren't you surprised to hear I like sweet things, if not sweet electronics? |
