@jays_audio_lab and others
It seems that several of you are hearing a lack of bass and it is presenting as too much upper end. One poster wrote it is missing the "bottom octave". I have experienced this a number of times and can say unequivocally that it not Jays video, it is YouTube. What I've noticed is that sometimes when I play a video, indeed there'll be no bottom octave, really no bass at all. But I've found that if I leave my headphones connected for five minutes or so and then try to play the video, the bottom octave is certainly there - a very night/day difference. I'm not sure if YT is throttling the download or what is happening, but it has happened enough that I just have to be patient and know after the video is on a tab for a little while, all the musical info is there. I just start a new tab and do something else for a bit then come back to the video and it works. Hope this helps. |
henry201,
An excellent display of symphonic music is the last few minutes of the video of the Master Chronosonic I posted above. It is the conclusion of Puccini's Tosca. Listen to the soft and loud orchestra parts, the extreme dynamics of the female voice, the cymbal crashes. The recorded audience applauds at the end, and after a few seconds of the silence of wonderment, the audiophiles in the room applaud gratefully.
I have indicated to Jay how he could take his "humble" XLF (by comparison to the Master Chronosonic), do the speaker resistor adjustments and use a cheap quality EQ like the Rane to improve on the performance of the Master Chrono. Jay didn't believe me last year when I said I could get the Alexx with EQ to outperform the Master Chrono without EQ. OK, he can take out a massive reverse mortgage to come up with nearly a million bucks for the total Master Chrono including the $75K/pair Thor Hammers, OR follow my suggestions for a pittance. Even without tuning resistor and external EQ tricks, the XLF approaches the flagship Master Chrono at a small fraction of the price. |
OR......
he could just tune you out like many of us do. Yeah, I’m betting that’s what he does rather than Rane or tuning for unnatural highs and highly reduced bass as you prefer, but let’s see...... |
Trying different cables is certainly a good idea and maybe the speakers need much more burn-in time.
Jay, we just said what we'd heard. No, it is not a matter of preference in this case, it is quite objective, I believe.
I also wonder if Gryphon/ Wilson is a good match. I remember I didn't really like even Mephisto with the Alexx. Perhaps Boulder or D'Agostino would be better.
Magico M6 don't require too expensive electronics, Gryphon Pandora/ Essence monos did very fine.
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I would be very careful playing with these resistors. According to my WA dealer, the change of resistors is not recommended by WA. It is there just for the extreme cases, where nothing else works due to a very unusual / problematic room. |
Inna, Gryphon and WA is a very good match. In my experience, Gryphon amps sound very dense (meaty) and slightly dark, which suits WA speakers due to their relative brightness. There are many very happy owners of big systems with both brands on WBF forum.
Just wait till Jay finds an optimum position for the new speakers, put them on spikes etc. |
@abedirov I would be very careful playing with these resistors. According to my WA dealer, the change of resistors is not recommended by WA. It is there just for the extreme cases, where nothing else works due to a very unusual / problematic room. This is exactly right. The main purpose of the resistor is to act as a fuse to protect the drivers. Viber has taken the changing of resistors totally out of context and doesn’t have a clue what’s he talking about. EQ is about changing different frequencies. Changing these resistors has an impact on the entire driver, for either the Tweeter, or Midrange. It’s called a Tonal Balance change, NOT EQ. All you’re doing is increasing or decreasing the impedance of the driver itself. For example, if you find the speakers sounding too bright in a room, you might want to try changing the resistor on the tweeter to a higher value (ie. 1.6 ohm to 2.0 ohm). In theory, this should reduce the output of the tweeter to make it sound less bright. Since it’s cheap enough to experiment with, I purchased a bunch of Caddock resistors from Digikey and tried them to see what the effect was. Bottom line, anything from the factory standard sounded worse. |
golfnutz,
The effect of the tuning resistors ultimately is to change the tonal balance. That's what EQ does. The two methods are different, but the effects are similar.
Until YOU try the Rane or other electronic EQ, YOU don't have a clue what you're talking about.
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All,
Once again, keeping a closed mind leads to inferior overall results. Those who mock me or say Jay is not interested in my contributions can go ahead and live their audio life in blissful ignorance. |
Wow, and now you’re calling them ’Tuning Resistors’. Where does Wilson Audio refer to this?
Like I said, EQ is based on certain frequencies, could be one or many.
These resistors change the entire IMPEDANCE of the driver, you don’t have any control over the frequencies.
If I took a 'Tea Towel' from the kitchen, and placed it on top of the speaker with part of the towel covering the Tweeter, should I call this 'Tuning Towel' the same thing as EQ'ing?
Stop with your ’word salad’ garbage. |
The midrange and tweeter are more sensitive than the woofer....so they pad the mids and tweets using resistors. Wilson gives you a way to "tune the frequency response slightly by changing the value of the resistors.....They will also somewhat "protect" the driver from being overdriven, but it is only a side light......All resistors mess up the sound. This is why active xovers are so good.....no passive xover parts whatsoever.
Here are some interesting factoids: Caddock resistors are good, but not great. If you bypass the large Caddock resistors with a Nude Vishay resistor of much higher value you will get more transparent sound. I have done this, so I know. The main problem with what Wilson is doing to make it "easy" to fine tune the speaker (and it sounds like hardly anyone every touches those resistors) it that the binding post that are used to hold them degrade the sound. All connectors suck....big time. Big Wilson speakers have 4 binding posts in series with the mids and highs and one set of spades......way, not good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is best to hardwire your padding resistors into the xover and run hardwired wires right to the drivers.....without additional spades and binding posts. Wilson ships their speakers with heads on them in separate boxes so the spade and binding posts are there for convenience. They could provide tinned wire to wire clamps using teflon bolts.....way better sound. When you build your own speaker you can do much better.....including hardwire directly to the voice coil wire and not going through the tab or binding post on the driver (don’t think anyone has ever done this on a production product).....Less is more. If all this was done to a Wilson speaker you would pee your pants. |
The issue is i don't see anyone with a 200k pair of speakers using aluminum foil, tinned wire, etc... |
If the bypassed Caddock resistors were inside the box, where they belong, then the speaker would look slicker in the back......also, you could design a clamping system for the extension cable that would look totally cool. No, not about aluminum foil (nice exaggerated try...sort of like the aluminum hat thing). No, it is ignorance, lack of desire, laziness and most of all....lack of creativity....that keeps the manufacturers from doing things all out. You can have the most beautiful thing in the world and have all out sonics. They can go together. The possibilities are infinite. |
If you don’t hear AGD amps, you do not hear what is possible. |
I'm open to any amps...i want to try Robert koda k160 REALLY REALLY BAD... |
Video i just shot a few minutes ago. A few changes have occurred. Watch the caption to know what i did https://youtu.be/pHdi5gMJ1OcI suggest that you all watch the video a few hours later. Yes , i got confirmation that the sound will keep improving about an hour or two after because YouTube "stabilizes" the video during this time. |
I have had my AGD Audion's powering my brothers XLF's and the sound was amazing, to the extent that my brother is considering selling his two month old Boulder amps.
AGD offers a trial period. I will be attending THE SHOW this weekend and i will have a chance to get a taste of their more expensive amps which might not be a good thing for my wallet. But to be honest the AGD Audions do everything i could ask.
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Have your brother contact me and hopefully he can sell me his boulders. |
Jay, any chance you can play and load Harry Nilsson 'Jump Into The Fire' on your YT Channel? |
@jays_audio_lab
All,
See my post at 06-07-2021 6:41pm
for reference.
I went over to YouTube to listen to Jay's newest video and it had nearly no bass. But I was not surprised as it has happened to me many times. As Jay says on YT, they are "stabilizing" the video. I found I just needed to leave the video on a tab on my computer, then wait five minutes or so, and when I went back to play the video a second time, the bass was all there. Sounds really good. So remember if you are not hearing significant bass, just wait a few minutes with the video still on your computer, then go back and it should play as Jay recorded it. This should solve all observations of little bass. |
Just watched it. Now, this song I know very well.
Stabilized or not - no good. |
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golfnutz,
You said the following, "Stop with your ’word salad’ garbage."
First, a brilliant and respectful expert named atmasphere explained how to have a conversation without offending someone with different views. He said, make your point factually. If you want to correct someone's statement, say that it is false. I'll add that if you say it is false, back up your position with some facts or experience. But don't trash the person who made the statement you disagree with.
Now on to the substance of your other remark--"EQ is about changing different frequencies." What does that mean? Neither the method of tonal balance adjustment in Wilson speakers using the tuning resistors (this phrase is used in Wilson literature) nor the method of tonal balance adjustment from an external electronic EQ like the Rane, do anything to "change different frequencies." Rather, the Wilson tuning resistors increase/decrease the output of each non bass driver. With the Rane EQ, I change the relative levels of output from different frequencies. The Wilson method and the Rane method produce similar effects, although the Rane can be abused to exaggerate the effects. For example, if I want to make the upper midrange/HF more brilliant using the Rane, I can boost 6 to 20 kHz, or I can lower midrange 200-800 Hz and keep the HF the same, or some combination of the two. The is approximately equivalent to taking Wilson Alexx/XLF/XVX/Master Chronosonic and attenuating the midrange driver(s) or boosting the tweeter driver using those tuning resistors. There are thirty 1/3 octave adjustments in the Rane. The user can use 1 or several adjacent adjustments to change the frequency outputs in a narrow or wider range, respectively.
All this explains why I consider the Wilson method a form of EQ which is valid and relatively subtle at the same time.
All this aside, Jay's superb, revealing XLF can still be enjoyed without any resistor adjustment because it offers so much of everything. In fact, if you read Mike Fremer's XVX review in the May Stereophile, he describes the sound as softer than he expected. Percussion sounded more woody than metallic. Seems like I would prefer the XLF to the XVX. Jay, you don't need to spend any more money to trade to the XVX. Like me, you might like the XLF more than the XVX. |
Jay
My brother is too frugal, he may want but he is not going to sell. His speakers before the XLF were Wilson Watt Puppy 6 that he used for over 20yrs. his electronics he seems to change every 5yrs. Not the typical audiophile for sure. |
I'm surprised at the critical remarks regarding the XLFs, Jay is at the beginning of his XLF journey and hasn't had any time to even get them off casters, let alone work more on positioning, have a Wilson expert dial in time alignment, experiment with cables, and try other amps, they will get even better as he works with them. |
klh007
Agree 100%. I have lived with Wilson speakers for four decades and once you know how to massage them they cannot be beat.
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There will always be those who will tell you that they don’t go to the beach because there is too much sand... 😂 |
As klh007 said, the XLF will benefit from a lot of thought and fine tuning adjustment. I would keep them on casters for a good while, which makes them manageable. But the XLF even without additional fine tuning is already far better than any other speaker Jay has owned using any electronics or tweak. It's a truth teller. Analogy--I would put greater trust in a truth telling person who is a little sick in bed compared to a person who sugar coats things and is dressed up for superficial appearances. |
Haven't had time to catch up on videos (still just halfway thru M6 amps).
Is the XLF struggling in the room or are only the YT vids not being up to par (just looking at the comments here).
WC what are you hearing? |
The comments here and the comments on youtube are like comparing Hawaii to Alaska. You should read both platforms and then post your personal thoughts. |
Ha, wish I had time to. Eventually |
I'm also getting caught up with the thread and Youtube. Fantastic sound with the XLF's. Such detail and vibrant sound. Looking forward to hearing more of the gear you will bring in for them. Thanks for all of the effort you go through....we are all fortunate to ride along with you.
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Jay
I have been a fan of your selection of Annette Askvik - Liberty song for your demos. Today I came across an artist that if nothing else listen on your system. His name is Foy Vance and the song is Sapling. The beginning of the song will test the Bass response to your XLF's and the rest of the songs will distinguish his powerful Irish vocals and orchestration. |
Great song. Thanks for this. I will be sure to use it on a future video. Tremendous bass. |
Jay,
I like all your methodology for the DCS/MSB shootout. Forgive the obvious if you already implied it, but I assume that demo 1 for each song would be the same dac, and demo 2 would be the other dac. After the whole project has completed, you then announce that demo 1 was the DCS, or MSB, whatever. I liked how you played the XLF before revealing it. This enabled me to overcome my previous prejudices against Wilson, and post that whatever the new speaker is, I heard it as the best you ever owned. |
Video 1
Presentation 1
Presentation 2
Same song on both
Video 2
Same logic as above
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Who in here is or isn't a believer in synergistic Research orange fuses?
I'd like to know...
Present your position... |
Teacher. Will you be giving us a you tube quiz on the SR fuses? I'm curious what the members of the class hear, especially thru the XLF.
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Jay'
I started with SR Blue and then went with SR orange fuses and orange duplex box. I now have them in my Lampi Pacific and my Canary Grand Reference 300B tube amps. I have done a lot of tweaking and between the PPT paste which you can't get anymore, the new 1260 contact enhancer and the SR orange fuses these are three of the best things I have done for my system at low cost.
Increased soundstage and clarity of voicing and instrumentation improved with the use of SR orange. I know a lot of people are not believers but I am and that is all that is important.
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Anyone else?
Before i make my next video about these fuses. |
haha I will throw in I am a believer but, for me, it has been component specific. I loved jumping from stock fuse to orange in my Simaudio 860a v2 monos and Simaudio 850p preamp.
However, I did not find an improvement inserting one in the Taiko Extreme (difficult test as it takes 3-4 days for the Extreme to resettle after full power down). In fact, as I turned the volume up into the low 80 db-c avg, I felt the Orange added a bit of etchiness and tended to be a touch shouty at the mid-high to higher volumes. When I reinserted the stock fuse and listened over the next few days, all the liquidity, richness and tonal balance came back across the volume spectrum.
That said, others have found an improvement with the Orange in the Extreme. So perhaps system and component dependent as always.
Based on @willgolf comment above, sounds like I should try one in the Pacific... |
Nice to see you evolving and doing more tweaks now wc “ not long ago you couldn’t be bothered you where actually quite against them.
Your system has gone from good to wow even over utube it’s clearly audible.
A tweekers system will always sound better then a plug and play guys system no matter what level. It’s all about implementation, attention to detail and imagination. |
I started with SR black, then went to blue and now have orange in my server, preamp and amp. They increased detail in my system without harshness....love them.
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Hey Jay,
Solid rules for the MSB v dCS shootout.
Looking forward to it.
One suggestion.
Rule 2-IMO you should use the Shunyata power conditioner for the both the Preamp and DACs. The reason you have a smaller sound field with a power amp is because of the current/power draw, both static and dynamic of the amp. Powerful amps need unrestricted current to sound their best. DACs and Preamps on the other hand are relatively low current/power draw devices so you won’t have that same problem. By not using the power conditioner you’re allowing the low level grunge in which blurs detail. Using the Shunyata conditioner will allow us all to listen deeper into the sound fields and discern more of the subtle differences between the MSB and dCS. |
I have an SR Black in my BAT VK-6200 but I am not a fuse connoisseur like some here. I've had it for a few years but details of improvement are difficult to remember. |
Shunyata Everest hasn’t impressed me if I’m being sincere. I won’t go into further details.
Also, the dacs will be using serious powercords which weren’t designed around Everest...
The Everest benefits one of my dacs more than the other. Let's leave it at that. |
Tried every SR fuses in my system. Red, Black, Blue and Orange. While I was somewhat skeptical about the benefits of audiophile fuses, my opinion has changed as soon as I tried them. The Orange are the best offering by SR. It just opens up the soundstage, gets rids of some harshness, better reproduction of dynamics, etc.
I have them in my DAC, linear PS and power amps. A no brainer for me. Very similar upgrade to upgrading a mid-level interconnect cable to a top-of-line interconnect. |
Just wait until i go over my experience with them... |
