My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
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@whitecamaross Pair your Ref 10 with a BAT VK-655se and you will take your system to another level. The current delivery with the 655se is high, 300 watts into 8 ohms and doubles down into 4 ohms so it will bring out the best in your PL500's and Revels. It's neutral warm, musical, detailed and extremely dynamic. The 655se comes as either a mono-block or stereo amp. If you put the BAT in your system you will not take it out. 👍 |
i am contemplating the bat vk655se as well. Guys, you are going to call me nuts with what i am about to say, but today i went and bought a router (asus ac1900) to replace my apple router and i used a better ethernet cable than what i was using between the router and black system. I don't know what is going going back i am hearing more bass and fullness in the music? i thought i had the bass turned up in the system and nope it is flat at 0.... how the hell is this possible? i am very well aware of how my system sounds and can pick up changes rather easy. Next amps to potentially go out of my stable: 350.8 i am planning to bring in the rowland s2 and the gryphon colosseum rather than the diablo 300 integrated. I want to keep trying amps with my ref10. |
It is not nuts...some may say you imagined it because you needed to justify the money spent on the router and cable...I'm not one of those people. You changed something that turned out to be important for your system; it is what makes this hobby really fun! FWIW that Rowland amp isn't going to really sing unless you leave it going all the time for a long time...then it will soar. |
This is my first time posting here on this long thread. First off, i want to thank Whitecamaross for all his hard work and taking the time to share all this with all of us. I have been reading this thread daily and used it successfully to build my own set up. I have spoken to many dealers for speakers, amps, preamps, etc and they all always have a suggestion based on what they need to sell to meet their numbers. I have to say that if i were to buy any component, i rather use your comments here than to read a magazine article. You are as real as it gets and most, IF NOT ALL OF US HERE READING wish we were your neighbor or had the financial means to buy all the things you have gone through. If you ever open your own audio store, you bet i’d be in there giving you my business because i don’t think you would sell me what you need to sell, but rather what you think would work in order to take my system to the next level. I don’t trust dealers, i don’t trust magazine review, but i trust your comments here. Why? because you have nothing to lose here. If anything, you are losing your own personal time by sharing with us. I wish you continue to help us all to find our next component. Aside from that, you really helped me the few times i reached out to you and i am glad i listened to you because you took the hard work away from me. You already did the hard work for me and others by trying all this stuff out so by listening to your advice, we land with what we need to buy and not what dealers push on us. Lastly, if anyone here is questioning your integrity about what you know or what you sell after you are done reviewing it, please send them my way. NOBODY here should question your honesty as a reviewer or as a seller. i bet there are a few reading this thread right now who have also bought from you and have nothing but positive things to say about you. Your perfect feedback here reflects your character and that you are a valuable member to this site on all fronts. Please keep up the good work whitecamaross. I actually know some dealers follow your thread (i spoke to some actually) and they know that you are the guy who has had just about everything audio related and believe it or not when they don’t know about a component, they go to this thread :) cheers ! |
Hi Whitecamaross, The router will benefit enormously plugged into your P10 or at least a good LPS, grounding also will give you further improvement from the R45 to say a Entreq device which work really good on all equipment. Dedicated audio switches will also make big improvements, actually 2 switches, one for your audio and one for the house. Check out PaulPangs and Aqvox switches. If your going to running lengths of ethernet cable you should strongly consider Fiber optic. Check out CA' Computer AudioPhile site for Fiber and Isolation. If your going to run off the ethernet the above suggestions will give you big improvements for a relatively low output. Huge dedicated forum on Entreq devises on WBF. |
@4425 - I completely agree with you - when my system is taken apart, it can take a few days to get back to its peak performance. @whitecamaross - I had seen you mention that you gave the Pass Labs X350.8 two hours and then evaluated it. I didn't know if you meant that it was plugged in and given two hours, or if it was already plugged in and just played for two hours. I no longer own Pass Labs gear, but when I did, I would need to give the gear a few days, after being plugged in, in order to best evaluate the performance. Thereafter, if plugged in all the time, it would take anywhere from 30-90 minutes (depending upon what is played) when turned on to sound its best. Continuing to enjoy the journey :-) Dave |
Sashas are in many ways the most comfortable speaker to live with. At first before i owned them i used to be the biggest critic due to their awkward appearance, but now that i have lived with them for a few weeks, they have grown on me. i want to try Alexias, but i can wait until they drop in price even more. Once they are at a good price point then i will probably make the move if i can convince myself. On another note, i am so impressed by the black system. I don't even feel like i need to crank up things at all. I love not having to wait for a few hours before it sounds its best. i really feel like it is going to be tough to let go of this thing. It is intoxicating in so many ways guys. I am just like in love with the entire performance of it as a whole. Sure, sometimes i think about just continuing with my analog stuff and sell the black system, but i just can't see a reason WHY do that. It does everything anyone could ever wish. i can't lie, i am starting to love the wilson/black system combo. |
hi guys, the simaudio is still here and has been on for 2 weeks. The black system is always on since there is no way to shut it off other than going to the back and flipping the switch. The simaudio is a great amp and it does so much right. That said, tomorrow i am picking up my second hegel h30 and will run them in mono block configuration tomorrow night. I want to see if 1100 watts of power per channel will do something to the character of the speaker at low to moderate volume. In addition to that hegel, i have been hearing alot of noise about a certain amp from a reputable brand that is supposed to be exquisite and amazing. It is not a powerful amp, but the report i am getting from others is that it will be a keeper. I ordered it today and the only hint i will give you is that it retails just under 5k and that it is solid state. :) |
So i have been listening to MQA files through the black system for the past hour or so and i have had the pass labs and ref10 turned on the entire time so they can get warm. I was going through multiple mqa files so i proceeded to play the ref10/pass 350.8 at the same volume as the black system and guys at low volume it is pretty much impossible to best the black system. i mean the music keeps pouring out of the speakers with clarity and that can not be said about my other set up. It sounds good only if i crank it up to like 90db+ then it begins to shine. i even tried the simaudio and no guys it is still a loss for my solid state pieces. That said, i am prepared to make the following statement: IN A LOW VOLUME ENVIRONMENT (<90 DB) THERE IS NOTHING BETTER THAN THE BLACK SYSTEM. I don’t seem to recall anything come remotely close to it when doing low level listening. I can say with confidence that not even my former class a amps from the past gave me this level of detail at low volumes. If you live in a small place where neighbors are a pain or perhaps you just don’t want to have to crank things up in order to enjoy your music then this is the system for you. GAME OVER. I have already done the work for you. |
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I appreciate your ongoing effort and enthusiasm in this thread, but with all due respect you should keep a few things in mind. First of all even with a broken in amp one hour of warmup time is not sufficient for most solid state amps to reach their sonic potential. Since the BC Black system includes an integrated DAC with MQA decoding, when you compare it to other pre/power amp combos you're also apparently using a different digital front end. So you're not effectively comparing amplification alone since the sonic differences caused by unique DACs are also influencing your results. Just something to keep in mind before you dismiss other fine electronics. |
@whitecamaross I don't dispute your finding that the Black System is the best you have heard 90 dB and below. It's your finding and yours alone. I also don't dispute that some amps (vs your stated "Most amps") "fall apart or lose their magic at low listening volumes." [emphasis added regarding SOME]. I, however, have a different definition of 'low volume' level...it certainly is not 90 dB. To say that 'MOST' of the world class amps you are evaluating fall apart below 90 dB is highly problematic. If you had said 70 dB or below I would be more willing to accept this. Can others reading this thread help me understand better? Thank you. |
@david_ten Whitecamaross is a listener who likes it loud, as you can find throughout his posts. 90db to him might be 70db to someone else. As far as the Black system sounding better to him at his lower 90db levels, he is basically saying there is something special about the Black system, to his ears, where he does not have the need to turn it up louder to hear those nuances ( whatever they may be ) he wants to hear, IMO |
@mrdecibel Appropriate username for this material! : ) "Hearing damage (over long term exposure, need not be continuous) measured at the ear is listed as 85 dB" in the link below [go down to the Table Titled: Examples of Sound Pressure]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure 90 dB at the listening position is LOUD! Somewhere between a Jackhammer at 1M and busy road traffic at 10M per the same chart (above). This chart, linked below, offers a window into examples and with some very useful info: http://www.industrialnoisecontrol.com/comparative-noise-examples.htm "Boeing 737 or DC-9 aircraft at one nautical mile (6080 ft) before landing (97 dB); power mower (96 dB); motorcycle at 25 ft (90 dB). Newspaper press (97 dB). Decibel Level 90 = 4 times as loud as 70 dB. Likely damage in 8 hour exposure. ---- Garbage disposal, dishwasher, average factory, freight train (at 15 meters). Car wash at 20 ft (89 dB); propeller plane flyover at 1000 ft (88 dB); diesel truck 40 mph at 50 ft (84 dB); diesel train at 45 mph at 100 ft (83 dB). Food blender (88 dB); milling machine (85 dB); garbage disposal (80 dB). Decibel Level: 80 = 2 times as loud as 70 dB. Possible damage in 8 hour exposure. ---- Passenger car at 65 mph at 25 ft (77 dB); freeway at 50 ft from pavement edge 10 a.m. (76 dB). Living room music (76 dB); radio or TV-audio, vacuum cleaner (70 dB). Decibel Level: 70 = Arbitrary base of comparison. Upper 70s are annoyingly loud to some people" ----Here is another chart, for those that may be interested: http://www.philophony.com/sensprop/archacoustics/pics/decibel_scale.pdf |
Thanks for that info and again for all your work WC. I'm sure you all already know this, but I didn't realize how easy it is to use the microphone in your phone as a db measuring device by downloading an app (thought I'd have to buy a meter). Does a decent job, at least for ballpark figures. Interesting to see what volumes I enjoy listening at. Helpful to put this discussion into context. |
Hi guys, a couple of things here regarding my previous comment about low volume: 1. <90 dB for me is considered moderate to low volume 2. I stated what I felt is my perception of the black system anywhere below that volume level 3. I used my iPhone to have a ballpark idea of how loud I am listening to 4. I stated in another post that I am using the lumin s1 as my source for the ref10 5. I connected both the black systems dac and lumin s1 And listened to both through my ref 10 at exactly the same volume and there’s zero difference in sound which indicates that the monoblocks of the black system have dacs because they receive their signal via optical cables which further improves the sound of the black system That said, loudness is subjective. What maybe be loud for you maybe not be loud for me or anyone else. When I said <90db, that is low to low-moderate to me. If what is considered low volume is <=80db then I’d buy headphones if I listened at that level all the time. For me it makes no sense to have a system and listen to it at <80db. That’s crazy and a waste of money. You’re better off with high quality headphones. |
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Update: i just brought the 2nd hegel h30 home and set them up quickly in mono mode. My fingers itched to push play so i proceeded to play one song and holy sh@iT is all i can say right now.... My preliminary feeling so far is OUTSTANDING, but again this is just the beginning. We shall see later tonight. Stay tuned.. i suspect that it will now be a dog fight between the black system and the ref10/hegelh30s in mono mode. |
@david_ten I am not sure you have read this entire thread, but if you did, you would have known more about whitecamaross and his listening levels. I like my music on the louder side ( as in my name ) as well. I have been around live music much of my life, traveled the N.Y. subway systems for many years, was a singer and sound man in a band, in a choir, attended many live concerts ( amplified and unamplified ), and in the audio business. My hearing is fine btw. I admire whitecamaross for his dedication and patience to do all this, not just for himself, but for others. I am actually surprised he has not shown any interest in a good horn based system, which has been mentioned in this thread previously by another poster. I read all of your posts, and others about your system. Enjoy. Sincerely, MrD |
Horns are my next journey :). i am looking into some klipsch palladium p39f :) so don't worry , those are in my bucket list. For now, i want everyone's help with the following: A pair of mono blocks or stereo amps that can be used as monos and that can put out over 900 watts per channel with a used market value of less than 12k dollars. The only one that comes to mind are the bryston 28bsst2 and 28bsst3s. |
Since you're not opposed to Class D you may want to check out the latest amps in NAD's Master Series, the M22 V2 which are bridgeable to 900 watt monos and retail new for $2,999 each. https://nadelectronics.com/nad-masters-m22-v2-delivers-increased-power-flexibility/ |
Here ya go . Under budget . Put the saved money towards the Neoliths ! Crown XLS2502 Bridged monos . Around $1500 new Number of Channels: 2 Power Class: Class D Watts/Side @ 8 ohms: 440W Watts/Side @ 4 ohms: 775W Watts/Side @ 2 ohms: 1200W Watts Bridged: 2400W @ 4 ohms, 1550W @ 8 ohms Inputs: 2 x XLR, 1 x stereo RCA, 2 x 1/4" Outputs: 2 x speakON, 2 x Binding Posts Cooling System: Efficient Forced-air Fans DSP: Yes Filters: Yes Rack Spaces: 2U Height: 3.5" Depth: |
Stay away from the NADs and Class D. I had the M27 for 2 years. It was smooth, reasonably detailed, and threw a wide soundstage but had no life. Get yourself a BAT 655se and be done with it. Or get a 4 channel VK-6200 and bi -amp it (400 watts into 8 ohms and 800 into 4 ohms) just to get a taste of the sublime BAT sound before you invest in a 655se. You need great current delivery and the BATs have that as well as detail, soundstaging , dynamics and just the right touch of warmth. Call Larry @the Palace and ask him how good BAT amplifiers are. His reference system at home uses bi-amped VK-6200's. 👍👍👍 |
