My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
Whitecamaross, I totally agree with you on the 15a’s vs the 13a’s. The 15a’s are an awesome speaker and played wonderful music in my home. I regretted selling them but to appease my wife who thought they were too big for our living room, triggered me to sell them to a buddy who loves them. Having 15a withdrawal I had my dealer let me try the 13a’s for a weekend. The 13a’s were a major disappointment. Everything I loved about the 15a’s were never reproduced in the 13a’s. Even my wife commented “those (13a’s) don’t sound as good as what you had”. The Neoliths are a beast of speaker and are a major step up from the 15a’s, I only wished I had the room to accommodate them. Good luck in whatever you decide. |
This has been a fascinating thread! However, let's not forget that the ROOM and speaker PLACEMENT plays a significant role in overall fidelity, regardless of amp, preamp, speaker, and cable choices. I would never make personal gear decisions based solely on ONE persons opinions (though I have no reason to doubt Whitecamaross perceptions and sincerity in his reports). Re ML 15A's vs 13A's, I auditioned both in a showroom, and found them to be far more similar sounding than not. Due to my room size, I went with the 13A's, and am very pleased. Comparing their specs (see... https://www.martinlogan.com/en/compare/products?p=renaissance-esl-15a,expression-esl-13a) one wouldn't expect there to be a night and day difference. If, indeed, you hear a significant difference, I suspect the major contributing factor would be the 15A's panel being totally vertical, vs. the 13A's panel having a backward rake of 5°. I have adjusted my 13A's for a more vertical rake, and found that substantially improved overall tonality and soundstage (in return, giving up a little something when standing vs. sitting). Just my $0.02 opinion. |
My room is far from perfect and let's just say that my ears have been "trained" to pick up a good sounding speaker in imperfect space. Let's face it, most of us don't have perfect rooms with panels, carpet, etc. Most of us have to compromise one way or another and that is why my reviews will give you a better idea. Remember, audio magazines review components no different than car magazines. For instance, my yukon denali is claimed to give you 15 mpg in the city, but based on my calculations i am lucky to get 11 mpg!!. What they don't tell you is that the 15 mpg are calculated with the a/c off, and in a perfect flat road which are all perfect conditions. It is the same thing they do with audio gear. They tell you it has amazing bass or fullness or this and that, but they fail to tell you they were using 30,000 dollar speaker cables or a 30,000 dollar source etc. |
As far as the 250.8, it is a great amplifier for a medium to small size room. That said, i will say the simaudio 860a is a better amp simply because it has a bigger soundstage. If i were to pick the best bang for the buck from all of the .5 or .8 amps, i would probably pick the 350.5. I am loving my 160.8s, but the 350.8 is no slouch and it gives me about 85% of the 160.8s sound. The only time i find the 160.8s far better is when you are sitting down late at night and your whole family is asleep and you want to hear all the detail and soundstage without wanting to wake everyone up. THAT IS WHEN THE 160.8s are killers. The 350.8 needs to be cranked up more in order to shine. |
sleepysurf regarding the 13a vs 15a... i have the 13a's and they are perfect for my room size. i listened to both and the sound is similar as i have been saying but there is just MORE of it as you advance thru the model lineup--11a 13a 15a my car analogy: porsche cayman or porsche cayman s ......same great car, one has more HP throwing a pair of 15a's in my 15' by 16' room would be like stuffing an 8 cylinder in a miata. that said, i listened to the 15a's at my dealer's xtra large room and they sounded super great. if and when i have a much larger room i would trade up and get these. i would never consider a conventional speaker as the martin logan brand has offered much of what i am looking for in the sound i prefer. but,to each his own. one speaker cannot provide everything, but my martin- logan's sure dot most of my I's and cross most of my T's mike |
Same thing here. Have been through this thread like a teenager reading his first lover letter... I have to say I am the lucky owner of a (pre-owned) Luxman M-900u amplifier I aquired lately at a great price I could not resist ( 12.7K cad$). Very tubey midrange sound , with treble harmonic density and refinement seen in best tube amps out there. And the way it is build inside and out is ahead of everything I’ve seen up to 30k imho. Looking foward to continue reading, and discuss with AG forumers. |
May I suggest to the op to try anaother dac, as the PS audio DirectStream is good but not sota. A sota dac should bring more to the sound than a sota preamp ( as I’ve read you tried many preamps). Preamp latest designs have followed some of the dac trend revolution, in that we are getting a lot more performance for a lot less money than 6-10 years ago. This is the reason why recent integrateds have been better for less money, it is the preamp sections of those that have Evolved, (not so the amp section). As good as a SOTA active preamp can be, what it is doing is always adding different coloration to the sound. The art of the thing is done in the DAC. |
I am using the lumin s1 as my source. Since I feel I have an amazing preamp, I won’t be trying any other preamps anytime soon. I will continue to try amps and possibly sources and I say possibly because sources are a scary thing because dacs are rapidly changing just like cellphones are. I HATE brands that change models constantly. |
About dacs, I do beleive the revolution has slowed down a lot. There is a limit as to where programming can improove the digital to analog result. They say the best sota dacs of the moment sound just like vinyl. Will the best Totaldac or MSB or APL be bettered by the new best in 5 years from now...I may be wrong but don t think so. |
If you don t mind, we can keep your thread a little warm in the meantime. Just finished a listening session with a friend, of the Luxman M-900u. We could not stop listening to Time out ( Brubeck). The Lux has all the warmth to enable loud listening without making the alto sax. hurting the ears. Astonishing detail retreival, and timbre, highs are just very define and smooth. Am using a very analog sounding APL DSD-S as a dac ( fpga pcm to dsd), wandering if it could ever get better than the way it retrieves all that detail and nuances in the recording. Using a Shunyata Alpha digital as pc, this hing pushed the dac to a new level of clarity.( was using a very good Audiolink AC cuivre made with occ copper and all copper furutech11 conectors) Had an Hegel H160 integrated before this huge change of direction to separates. The H160 was no slouch and offers a lot for the price point I can tell you this. But the new amp/pre rig has transcended the listening experience to the next level for sure. Just normal considering the price level. I m sure there are tubes based rigs outhere that can give better or same performance musicaly for less money that the Lux 900u. But I m a techno purist type...I need to know I have best modern design and measurements , so tube is not me in this case. This is why I have chosen the Lux amp, I fell for its guts design equally (or even more ? sounds weird isnt it) than its sound. Like buying a car with the latest transmission and motor tech. |
UPDATE: i might be striking a great deal on a pair of martin logan 13a speakers which i did not like in my room, but since i am moving tomorrow to a new home with a different room and i plan on doing a few things to treat the room, i may end up with the revel salon 2s and martin logan 13a so i can better evaluate electrostatics vs conventional speakers. This will serve an outstanding purpose because it would be nice to know which amp/preamp sounds better with which speaker. The goal would be for me to have both types of speakers at once going forward. |
whitecamaross, 13a's will absolutely tell you all about electronics downstream. although my system sounded good, in a similar circumstance as yours, i called a very well respected hi-end place and asked them what the trade-in value was for my 13a for 15a's. instead of just trying to make money from me, he was puzzled as to why i felt i needed the 15a. he said i have a world class speaker and i should look to see about upgrades within my system instead. so that's what i did. and one of those pieces was a ref 6 which ALLOWED the rest of my components and speakers ..to be great!!!! without a superior preamp, which i now firmly believe is the heart of any system, the sound system will never reach it's full potential. your ref 10 reaction was similar to my ref 6 reaction..lol. your ref10 (lucky you!) and 13a's , i believe , will ALLOW you to instantly recognize any signature sound any of your components or speakers provide. looking forward to your reports! mike |
I don t agree about the preamp being the heart of the system. You will never hear more resolution and transparency than plugging the dac direct to amp. So what you are hearing is mostly added color and gain. I ‘ sure most of you would not pass the blind test if we compared a 7k$ C52 Mac equalized to sound as the 15k ref6 arc... |
Good debate. What’s the heart of a system ? The amp? Preamp ? Source ? Let’s leave the speakers out and choose one of the 3 choices above. What does everyone think ? What’s the most important component ? I am really torn because I’ve been an amplifier guy for a very long time. I love amplification but the ref10 just made me rethink that. I mean, if I bought Parasound jc1s with the matching preamp and I compared it to a ref10 preamp using a pair of emotiva monoblocks, which sounds better ? My money says the ref10/emotiva combo blows away the Parasound combo. |
A few years ago I was using the Classe Audio DR-7 preamplifier in combination with their DR-9 power amp. The DR-7 was the top-of-the line Classe preamp at the time, and built as a 2 piece preamp (Power supply + preamp). I purchased an Audio Alchemy DAC and tried it with/without the DR-7 preamp. The best sounding combo was without the DR-7. But this was like +20 years ago. I am now using a Benchmark DAC 2 HGC with a pair of Krell FPB-350 MCX monoblocks and very happy with the combination and not looking into using a preamp at this point. My thougth process is that when you have less equipment in the chain, the audio quality should be the best. However, I would like to think that today's electronics are much better than ones built 20 years ago. The Audio Research Ref 10 preamp is probably one of the best preamp around and would surely would like to better understand the interaction with a recent DAC with/without its preamp section being used. I've been following this thread with great interest and looking forward to Whitecamaross findings |
The famous debate of the pre. What I don’t get is why we put huge amount of money on the amplifier design...powerful class A or tube for that lush midrange and highs, tube for that midrange warmth and tonal density. We then « mess around with» or « add » to it in the preamplifier...logically we just should not have to. It s like putting crunchy peanut butter on top of an already crunchy peanut buttered toast...just buy crunchier peanut butter in the first place and be done with it in one step... « The pre should pass the toast to the amp without topping, it should only make the toast bigger and heavier ( preamplifying the signal) thats it, then the amp puts the topping we want «. |
I will have to say my preamplifier, the Audio Research Reference 10, is the heart of my system and communicates the soul of the music which keeps me engaged for hours at a time. This is from a man who has upgraded over five times in the last five years to include multiple amplifiers, preamplifiers, digital and analog sources and speaker (next) upgrades. When I upgraded from the ARC Ref 5SE to the ARC Ref 6 it was a wow and my recent upgrade to the Ref 10 was a double wow especially after upgrading the stock Sovtek tubes to the Reflector 6H30P-DR’s and Winged C SED 6550C’s. I will say playing music directly from my dCS Vivaldi 2.0 DAC into my ARC 250SE monoblocks is very good listening experience but going through the Ref 10 is a better, more engaging, musical, goosebump and hair raising experience. Good luck Whitecamaross with your new ML 13a’s.....I hope the 2nd time around is a better experience......The Ref 10 will definitely help this time around. Enjoy |
I keep telling everyone the reference 10 will make anyone’s jaw drop. It’s the best thing I’ve done for my system. That said, I bought back my Hegel h30 amplifier today. I want to now try this amp with the reference 10. Essentially once I have things up and running here, I will do a nice shoot out between the simaudio 860a, Hegel h30, pasS labs 350.8. who do you all have your money on from those 4 amps using the ref 10 as a preamp ? |
My experience, which is limited compared to some of you although not insignificant, is that different components are responsible for different characteristics in your system. To me the DAC is the "personality" of the music; responsible for dimensionality, musicality, realism, and the amp is more responsible for PRAT, soundstage possibly, punch and bass control. At the end of the chain, speakers are sort of more a limiting factor; they either expose what the downstream gear can do or place limits on different characteristics. Just my very humble $.02, YMMV |
@whitecamaross - I didn't see you mention the Pass Labs XA160.8 for your amp shootout - what happened? @techno_dude - I also agree with dasign that less equipment in the chain can provide better audio quality. However, when comparing the insertion/deletion of a preamp, a big consideration is the volume control. Everything that goes into the volume control of a preamp is probably much more involved that that of a DAC with a volume control. Comparisons will reveal if the insertion of a high performance preamp and extra cabling is better/worse than a DAC with a volume control. And, I'm sure the performance cost/ratio will determine that for some as well. Another consideration is inputs of a DAC vs a preamp - especially if doing analog. Dave |
whitecamaross - It would be interesting to throw in some lesser priced amps for a litmus test . Im talking way less priced . Curious minds want to know . In a lesser price range just think of the fun you could have . 10x more amps to evaluate . No worry about reselling at a loss . You might find a real sleeper that beats these mega buck amps . |
Assuming it is not too late, since you are moving into a new home, you may wish to go over to the Whatsbest site and do a search for Myles B. Astor's post about simple things you can do to improve your electricity in your listening room/area. Basically, dedicated lines, heavy gauge romex, all lines to same leg of AC at the panel, good outlets. |
I would love to hear your take on the Marantz Ma-9s2 amps. I have always wanted to hear them ,but never ever got a chance. Has anyone else ever got to hear them ? For some reason those and the Electrocompaniet Aw600 or 400 have always intrigued me more than any other amps that i can think of.they have been on my "bucket " list . Keep the Ref10 and sacrifice something else. For the money , I would love to see what that equipment would sound like through the Tekton Double Impact speakers(3000 per pair). I own them and can tell you that they are Conduits for your equipment. More-so than any other speaker that i have ever heard. The performance to cost ratio is Unreal. Plus you have a 60 day trial period . I think that is one speaker that you just MUST try |
I think the black system would be great for evaluating speakers but you are reviewing amps so I say keep the Ref 10 and a couple different types of speakers and review amps. I like the idea that maplegrovemusic had of throwing in a lesser priced amp now and again...that would be very informative for audiophiles on a budget. Also I know this is a solid state amp thread but to review a tube amp now and then would but fun to hear how they compare to the solid state amps you reviewed. |
