Hi techno, that's all I was wondering, thanks.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
I have to say @techno_dude that I disagree with your comment about Shunyata PC. I tried the Alpha NR in my system along with the Delta in an A/B comparison. I as well as my GF thought the Delta's sounded better than the Alpha. It is synergy in the system and what matches your ear's that is the most important. I do not think there will be another cable for @whitecamaross that will beat or exceed the Odin for him. He found his sweet spot but it never hurts to try new things. |
@psnyder149 Solid points. Thank you for taking the time to provide your experience with the gear you mentioned. Your tactfully pointed out observations regarding several posters that have taken over this thread are pretty spot on. Your comments are in no way hateful, just truthful. I also believe as Mr. Synder does, that many feel the same way and it would be most considerate if both offenders were to refrain from continually posting and trying to derail or "educate" this thread. |
"ezzigi, agreed with that review, Nordost Valhalla or Odin for power cable NO ( much overpriced)" "Shunyata for power cable YES. Nordost Valhalla 2 or Odin for speaker cables YES. Nordost top tier speaker cables are the best you can find. They are truly remarkable. Expensive yes, but the very best have a cost. Not their powercables though." techno, Are your statements on Nordost power cords based on actual listening tests in your system or dealer showroom? Or are they based on price alone? |
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All- it is clear to me that some of my daily followers are very offended by strong opinions from people who formulate opinions based on the “expertise” they gather from reading magazine articles which are often times financed by the big audio companies needing marketing in order to push product out the door. Although at times there are indeed honest articles that are informative and can help in making a big purchase, my thread gives input/opinion with gear that I own and that I DO NOT NEED for the manufacturer to give me a special deal in order to promote their product. I know factually some reviewers are bribed and given perks. Hell I wish I was given perks. Audiogon doesn’t even give me a discount code to save me some money in order for me to list my gear once I’m done with it and yes I know my thread draws traffic to this site which they benefit from. I don’t get a free taco with all the effort, time and money I spent and some of you certainly appreciate the fact that I don’t expect anything from anyone but one thing: Keep this thread going by stating FACTS with evidence and without drawing conclusions by what you read or someone else told you. I think this is indeed what is ticking people off. Talking in depth based on pure speculation. If someone wants to debate me then I welcome it AS LONG AS YOU CAN SAY YOU OWN OR HAVE OWNED the product. |
Well WCSS if those are the new rules I know what pieces of gear we are gonna hear about again and again. Sing along with me....My Apologies to James Taylor in advance for butchering his song. Now Ive Heard MYTEK and Ive Heard RANE Ive Played my Violin in public bathrooms now and then It seems most days I cannot find a Friend So I wind up in the Audiogon Forums again. |
Oh my, RIAA, what a great chuckle for the start of a new day. And thank you psnyder149 and pokey77. Keep this thread going by stating FACTS with evidence and without drawing conclusions by what you read or someone else told you. I think this is indeed what is ticking people off.Great suggestion. We will soon learn how effective your request will be. And WCSS, would you please give a short summary of the last few "top" power cords you have tried at each component, and a rating at each of those components. This might help some of us to determine if it's worth your time for us to send a PC to you for trial. And what power cord are you currently using on the conditioner? |
For all those who bash me personally, WC doesn't want your negative personal attacks which can draw attention from the moderators, risking shutdown of this valuable thread. Many people have different listening observations and preferences from me, which is fine if they don't engage in personal attacks and tasteless jokes at my expense. The record shows that I don't initiate personal attacks, but just state my findings from personal observations, or sometimes note that a review said such and such. By contrast, the negative personal comments are initiated by people who disagree with me, and then compounded by the cackles that "that was hilarious." As WC advises, restrict your comments to honest findings about equipment. |
Agreed with Viber. Let this thread go back on track, ( and the clowns go back to silence). Now Odin 1 power cord is supposed to far inferior to Odin 2. Much like the Valhalla 1 is much inferior to Valhalla 2...and yes I have heard both on the same system. It’s not even close, the older Noordost series suffers from lack of midrange richness and are prone to leanness. I know this, I have experienced this, it is a fact. I hope WC that you don’t need any grand jury written proof of this for it to be acceptable input to your thread... Remember , your thread would be nothingness without us the followers. We have faith in your honesty, please show to same to ours. |
Well I can say this to you: there’s NOTHING lean about Odin 1 in my set up and the highs are better than they were before and mind you I’m still using wireworld interconnects and speaker cables. I’m switching to odin speaker cables next week so I guess we will see what happens. Right now, my set up sounds the best I’ve ever heard it. |
WC, All you need is one more Odin power cord to do some interesting trials. Then you could try 2 on the Block monos to see how the Odins improve on the stock or other power cords you now have on the Blocks. While you await the 2nd power cord, you could use the one you have on 1 channel of the Block and the other cord on the other channel. Listen to a mono recording and hear the difference between the two channels. Then try the Odins on other components to see where they have the greatest benefit. There are fewer variables with the Odin speaker cables, so that is an easy test. I recall Nordost advising that the power cord is the most important cable to try first to get the biggest benefit. |
Viper6 I have been reading this thread for many months and throughout you have made many well conceived contributions and many conclusions. Some of the conclusions have not made it through the group's filter as you know as we detected that you sometimes conclude without actual experience. I see that you are working on that. You also have a knack of taking other's points that were made in context and removing the context and concluding as if they are now black and white. Many of those don't make it through my filter. All you need to do to make this a positive thread again is to review your conclusions and any that are not crystal clear turn them into queries (as ideas are great) for the group to chime in on. |
So I’m not sure if some of you know, but there’s a big audio show going on this weekend in Tampa. It actually started today and I was told the Neolith are there and sounded awful.... well, then when I was sent pics and saw what they were using (check my virtual system and look at the red pair of neoltihs) and sooooo Martin Logan was showcasing neoltihs with a parasound stereo amp, parasound preamp and aurender as a source. ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING !!!!!! This is a perfect example of what I’ve been saying all along. You CAN NOT do this to these speakers and I’m shocked that Martin Logan would do that. It’s almost like they don’t care to do this to their flagship speaker. Why in the world would they do this?????? Who buys a 80k speaker and uses 3k amplifiers, 2k preamp with it!!!!! it just fires me up and this is why I said it a few pages ago that I wish I was there brought my full set up so I can embarrass them. It really is ridiculous what they are doing. How stupid do you have to be ? |
Well, maybe the new Parasound duo is better than their older line. Maybe you are just overestimating the overall difference the block audio amplifiers bring to the table compared to that new Parasound amp. . DAC/preamp plays a good part of the final result you are earing. You could just bring your Lampi and Odin 1 and plug it in the Parasound amp at the show, and you would get a good part of what you have home.... |
WC, You are right that those inferior electronics at the show don't allow the Neo to sound its best. Another big factor is setup of the Neo in the room. When you first put them in your room, you were underwhelmed. Then you experimented with toe-in, and most important, got 5-6 feet behind them which made a big difference. But even with a great setup, which takes more time than exhibitors can do, any stat has a sweet spot. Listeners way off axis are not getting the quality of the guy in the sweet spot. Even those listeners in the middle (left/right) but in different rows are getting different sounds because the angle of toe-in varies with distance. The most valid comment is from the guy in the single sweet spot, with everyone else's opinion to be taken less seriously. |
gtaphite, I agree that context is important, but there can still be generalizations about equipment that are still valid. For obvious examples, a ref 10 tube preamp will have totally different character than a Boulder. A dealer whose customer wants the kind of sound liked by WC would not recommend the Boulder, regardless of the speaker. The dealer's experience would not treat each system as a totally blank slate where anything can be tried at random. There has to be some process of narrowing down the likely choices to come close to the desired sound. The list of good choices is made from the known general characteristics of the component in many diverse systems. Then, the context of the total sound can better define the best choice. I think this is what you mean by "context." |
I hate seeing those Neoliths in that environment. I would have fired everyone who put that together. It’s a disgrace to see their best speaker with Parasound gear. Please don’t take this as an insult to parasound but it’s in no way, shape or form at the level of a Neolith. That speaker is made for the “heavy hitters” such as Dag, constellation, soulution, block, etc. Why don’t I go buy a corvette zr1 and order some Chinese tires to run 200 mph laps around the homestead speedway and then fill up the tank with 87 octane fuel? Gas is gas right ? I am so happy I didn’t go to the show. I probably would have gone off. ONE LAST THING FOR ALL OF YOU WHO GO TO SHOWS ALL THE TIME: this is the kind of garbage they do at shows. This is how SOME OF YOU judge gear. Take THIS as an EXAMPLE that what you hear at shows isn’t always how a component should sound. You actually need to remember that there are idiots there connecting rca and xlr cables and pretending to create magic. This is why I do my own thing and don’t listen to magazines or stupid shows. It’s all polluted with lies and stupidity. |
WC, I can relate to your exact scenario 5 years back at the So Cal "Newport" show. I spent many years optimizing Sound Lab A1 electrostatics, much tube rolling in preamp, dac and amps, tried a ton of cables, and ultimately reached magic. And then I heard the A1's at that audio show, and the dealer was using midfi gear and sources and my reaction was the same as yours. The sound was ok, clearly not nearly the worst of the show, in fact sounded better than I expected, but still, nobody going into that room had any idea the potential of those speakers. I wanted so badly to go home and bring my preamp in there which would have significantly improved the performance. Oh well. But a handful of other showrooms put on outstanding demonstrations and so it was worth it. And it is nice to finally meet and talk to some of the designers we have all read about over the years. |
I feel that Martin Logan uses lower case preamps and amplifiers as a marketing strategy to sell the speaker initially. I have noticed that much of the advertising shows claims of "easy to drive" with many different equipment options, even Receivers. We all know that Martin Logan plays so much better with the right amplifiers. Class A amps just make for better sound with MLs, and I have called them and they won't tell you what brand to use. But they did say that an amp with a doubling of power down to 2 ohms or even better 1 ohm is what seems to work best. So it looks to me like what the strategy behind inferior equipment is to get you to buy the product first. I don't think for a minute that Martin Logan is clueless. I think that they don't want to be bunched into the class of speaker that only sounds good with something really, really expensive. Eventually the speaker owner will figure it out by talking to some others about how much better sounding they are with great electronics. |
WC , You did not actually go to the show..right? Is it your Dealer who is giving you the feedback that the Neoliths sounded terrible ? Keep in mind , he wants to sell you expensive gear so he can make a lot of money. I am not saying they didn’t sound bad , but keep that in mind. Do you think he would tell you that the Parasound Audio gear sounded Great with the Neoliths, and you do not really need those Block Audio Amps ? I am just sayin’ |
Agree with WC, jafox, bigddesign3 about how stats are not optimally demoed at shows. I stopped going to shows years ago. The only value was to meet designers. However, my first foray into the high end was right after I got my first job as a doctor in 1977. I wanted the Maggie Tympani 1D, but needed to get a new car. I got the speakers, but compromised with a big receiver and used my old AR turntable with a mediocre MM Shure M91ED cartridge. This was good enough to thrill me with the superiority of the Maggie to my old Advent speakers. Of course, later I upgraded the other components and could better appreciate them with the Maggies already in the system. Following what bigddesign3 notes, ML is targeting the midfi market at Best Buy stores. I encourage novices to go there and see how the cheaper ML stats even poorly set up, kill everything else in the store. They can then enter our high end world. At the same time, the sophisticated audiophile knows that there are dedicated dealers who do a better job, where he can get better advice. But as WC noted, there are few or no dealers who demo the Neo. This is a major deficiency, because it cannot be assumed that the Neo is just another ML speaker. Ideally, a dealer should demo both top ML speakers--the Neo and CLX Art. The Neo is for the guy who wants much of everything who has a big enough room, and the CLX is for someone who wants the highest accuracy who is willing to compromise on big dynamics. |
It may not have been a Martin Logan demonstration, but a Parasound demo with ML speakers. Maybe, also, the room and setup may be simply bad because parasound makes decent equipment. It would still sound pretty nice. I’ve been to many shows where really nice equipment sounded absolutely bad because of the room. I wouldn’t be so quick to blame parasound. Just saying enjoy |
minorl, Right. My last show, in NY 2-3 years ago, included a Sanders Sound Systems electrostatic hybrid. It was in a small narrow room with not much space behind the speaker. As a result, it sounded rolled off and lifeless, far inferior to an excellent setup at a private home. I considered buying it based on the private demo, but would have rejected it after 2 seconds of listening at that show. Whoever set the system up at that show doesn't know much about optimizing the sound of dipoles in general. Then there is the price of the room. A famous manufacturer like Wilson can afford to get the best room which has the proper space to demonstrate his speaker, but a tiny guy like Sanders who sells direct because he can't afford a dealer network, is handicapped. No excuse for ML which can afford a good room, but just needs informed setup. |
I am not sure why ML would bother bringing supporting gear that is less than perfect to the show. Makes no sense at all. When MBL demos their reference speakers, they pair it with their reference gear. They want all who hear to hear these speakers at their very best. I use MBL as an example only because they have a big reference speaker (101Extreme). I don't own MBL but until recently owned ML for 12 years. I'm pretty sure that someone that is capable of buying $80k speakers will not buy them on the hunch that they can make them sound better with other gear. No, they are going to want to know what the ML synergizes with so they can make a logical informed purchasing decision. Most people are not like WC in that they are not going to try a myriad of amps to get to the right combination. And that's why we are so enthralled with what he is doing. I salute you WC and know exactly why you were so upset about the reports of this demo at the Florida show. |
There is..... I'm sure.... quite a few other combinations of equipment that will make for great sounding Neoliths. The Solid State side of it still has the D'ag, SimAudio, Gryphon. And the coveted Naim Statement, which has been endgame for some. Then there are some of the tube amplifiers that may bring great sound.... but minus the high db levels of Solid State gear. Tube preamps could also bring something new to the table. There is one thing that is now quite clear..... (with WCSS testing). The Neolith is an endgame speaker system, that is welcome in the heady company of any speaker made in the world. |
Uh. I think I see why there are none. (Sim Audio 880-M) Read the comments after the review...Yikes https://www.stereophile.com/content/simaudio-moon-evolution-880m-monoblock-power-amplifier |
I don't understand your comment about Pass Labs not being good for a two channel home theater. Isn't that the case with any amp? I don't see how the problem is the fault of the Pass Labs. Two channel theater? That is never going to be satisfying with any amp. I'm considering the the Pass Labs 250.8 for R,L, and Classe CA5200 for remaining channels of my home theater. I now own the Plinius Odeon. I like to try different things too but I'm not sure if this one will be a step up. What do you think? Cheers, Steve |