With ref10.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
WC, Please don't give up the Plinius. It is a cheap reference. Even though overall you like the Block better, the Plinius is still the best amp you presently have for snap and sparkle. If you need cash, I would sell the ref 10 and get the ref 6 for all the reasons I have given. Aside from soundstage, the ref 10 is inferior to the ref 6 for the core qualities of any music. My prediction is that the big Pass will have balls and such, but it will still have the typical Pass house sound. Big money and sacrifices for euphonics, just to satisfy your curiosity? It is better to borrow it, pay a little rent money for a very short period of time if necessary, to cover the services of a few men needed to install this beast and then cart it away after your brief trial. |
Viber, no dealer rents xs300s lol. That’s like asking a Range Rover dealer to let you take the car home to see how you like it. Just won’t happen. If the Range Rover leaves the dealer, you’re forking out $100k plus dollars or making $1250 monthly payments. People who come to buy things at this level are assumed TO KNOW about the item in front of them. They know if you are knocking on the door, you know your cars, electronics etc. |
If budget was not a consideration why wouldn’t you experience the Momentum 400’s? I would expect power and finess in a gorgeous pkg imo. My S250 wants for nothing. It’s awesome as well it should be. And if price was no object the Dartzeel NHB 468 would be my buy and forget piece. Actually so would the M400’s.. Step it up! |
WC, I concur with your thought to sell the Plinius. Time to move forward and see how the Titan compares with the big Pass amp. Looking forward to more feedback on how the Titans sound after more listening. I suspect they will grow on you as time moves forward. Hope you had a chance to check out my small songlist I recommended as I think it shows off your system. |
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@viber6 I believe that WC had the XS150 for a while, so he probably does have an idea of what to expect with the XS300. I think though that I remember him mentioning that the XS150 was super hot, even at idle. I would think that would steer him away from the XS300, but perhaps winter weather helps to forget those things temporarily :-) Dave |
Musical fidelity titan: monster bass control. It sounds as if it’s Godzilla stumping in my room. Effortless power reserves. It plays so dynamically and powerful that it’s scary. Makes me feel as if my oled tv is going to shatter from sheer pressure in the room. This amplifier is such a fun amplifier guys. It shows you what sheer power can do for your speakers at any volume level. This is one of the top 4 amplifiers I’ve owned. Easily besting anything I’ve owned from pass labs, McIntosh, classe, bhk, Krell, Boulder, simaudio, Plinius. This amp will easily put turbochargers in your music. |
If you were to use Purist Audio Dominus Interconnects from Lampi without the REF10 , I would be willing to bet that you will get what you are missing. The most Musical interconnect that I have ever used. Gives body and weight with textured bass and very good top end and perfect midrange with 3d soundstage. You can crank the Fu@k out of it without glare Very quite background. Things leap out from the Darkness |
WC, OK, you've told us about the Titan's soundstage and bass. Now, how about the spark and snap that you value (sorry, grey9hound, WC likes snap, sparkle and life as I do, even if you don't), detail and clarity at other freq? My guess is that you still don't have anything that beats the Plinius for snap/sparkle. |
@grey9hound - If you were to use Purist Audio Dominus Interconnect from Lampi without the Ref 10....bet that you get what you are missing Grey9hound - Conversely, if you put that same interconnect between the Ref 10 to the amps and the Lampi to the Ref 10, the combination would be superior then if the cable is only between the Lampi and Amplifiers. The Ref 10 is an awesome line stage |
WC, The dealer of Range Rover or Pass xs300 who thinks that the big money customer understands the product is totally wrong. You didn't like the Pass .8 series compared to the .5 series when the prevailing sales pitch said that the later design of the .8 makes it better. So how can anyone possibly predict how the xs300 is going to sound or whether he likes it without a home trial? At the high price, how can anyone be comfortable about a purchase without a home trial? The odds are high that there is no Pass that offers better sound in most criteria than the Titan, Dag Progression monos, or even the Plinius. At their prices, any of those offer better value than a big Pass. Even the expensive Block offers better sound than any Pass you have heard, plus better value. |
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Ref6 is awesome but the ref10 is oustanding. You have a Mercedes s550 but this is the maybach. Lastly, I don’t know but boy oh boy this amp has turned me upside down. Someone told me before I bought the neoltihs that he hated them until he heard them with the 750se arc Monos and that’s when his jaw dropped. Well guys, I think it’s just that the neoltihs crave clean huge power. They are talking to me right now in ways that I didn’t think was possible. |
When you get into the stratosphere area of High End Audio, there (in my opinion) isn't jaw dropping differences. Differences yes, but jaw dropping? not in my experience. How long has the REF 10 been on the market? Some people complain that Audio Research comes out with new stuff quite often and that may be the case for their lower high end or middle high end equipment. But to beat the REF 10? That they are probably finding is pretty hard to do. Unless budget is unlimited and the selling price really over the top. As usual, for most of us, price/budget is a factor. So, demonstration equipment or used equipment is the way to go for some of us. that typically means either 1) the previous owner found money enough to get that Maybach and will let the AMG or regular Mercedes go for a good price. Same for audio equipment. I've seen REF 10s on the used market for about $14,000. Not bad considering it sells new (who buys retail?) for $30,000. but, $14,000 is still a large chunk of change for most of us. but I tell you what, if and when I can justify (funny word in this hobby) the money for a REF 10, I'm grabbing it. Can't believe I wrote that. it is an absolutely wonderful pre-amp. Also, there is no such thing as a thing being overpriced. an item, any item is worth exactly what you are willing to pay for it. If you aren't willing to pay that amount for something, then, to you, it isn't worth it. But to some others, it may well be. has nothing to do with you does it? give credit where credit is due. Audio Research makes some really nice equipment. So do some others out there. That is why this is such a great and interesting hobby. I am interested in the large differences WC is hearing with the new amps over the Block amps. The first question I would have is did you match volume levels before serious listening? Anyway, this is about WC's blog and journey through the many levels and categories of audio equipment. This experience is unlike any I have seen or heard about other than reviewers in audio magazines. Which, unfortunately, I have stopped believing most reviewers. but, if one can take a piece of equipment out of their system and place another into the same system and listen, that is the best way to do it. Change only one thing, listen again and make a determination. I did that going from my Audio Research SP 11, which with new tubes was really close to the REF 3. then the REF 3, compared directly to a REF 5SE and a REF 6 at the same time. Know what? The REF 3 even today is a really great pre-amp. The REF 5SE was better. Jaw dropping better? no. The REF 6 better than the REF 5SE. so I got one. I see a REF 10 on the horizon. But that will probably only happen if Audio Research comes out with some new fangled pre-amp better than the REF 10 (good luck with that) and people start off loading their REF 10s to get the newer pre-amp. I am absolutely enjoying reading about WC's adventures. But I can tell you right now that when he starts delving into Analog/Vinyl equipment. Oh boy!!!!! This is fun. enjoy |
Why do so many people here get bothered when WC does not follow with their suggestions? It's quite clear that he's doing mighty fine now. Now that he has discovered the magic of tubes in the line stage and DAC and the benefits of various cables, all he has to do is work on some room layout/treatments, maybe get another dedicated circuit or two, he should be good for quite while. As for Purist Dominus cables B and C, I ran a full setup of these, ICs, phono, multiple PCs, 9-10 years ago. They were impressive in spacial cues, but detailed on the top or tonally coherent? ..... not even close! A mix with Kubala Sosna Emotions helped to improve the tonal coherency but a follow-on discovery and trials with Stealth, Dream State, Silent Source and Jade Audio cables were vastly more detailed, coherent and more natural with 3D presentations. Rather than push a highly dated Dominus, surely PAD has made much progress in the last decade with newer products. After hearing so much detail since my Dominus days, I could never go back to those severely colored cables. And Viber, you admitted that you have not heard a high performance DAC. Unless you have a high performance phono playback setup, how can you possibly have any idea the performance of the Ref6 vs. Ref10, or their competition? And unless you have directly compared the exact brand/model of single-ended vs. balanced ICs, in such a top performance system, how can you comment on the pros/cons of one type over another? A product designer knows of the benefits or compromises that one cable type may compare to the other within his/her product line. This will clearly not be universal across all components or systems. The odds are high that there is no Pass that offers better sound in most criteria than the Titan, Dag Progression monos, or even the Plinius. How in the world can anybody make such a comment strictly based on WC's experience in only 2 days in his specific system and no direct experience of their own? WHAT? Have you even heard 10% of the products you comment on here regularly? And if so, how many have you lived with for any amount of time in your own system? |
I like where we are finally headed with this thread. It was about time that we all get excited and curious as well and give their input making things interesting. This page has been one of the best pages in the last month or so. Let’s not get derailed and begin bickering please. Keep things flowing as they are. |
FYI: the ref 10 is no longer 30k. I believe it’s 34k as of last month. This means the used market will also go up. Don’t expect any robberies on ref10s. Yes, I don’t want to try another preamp until it can come here and easily beat my ref10. I don’t dare to sell my ref10 or the lampizator pacific until their successors are released. |
So right now, I went back to the block audios and they sound great but they don’t seem to wow me as the titan fidelity was doing earlier today. However, they have been unplugged for over a day and I remember when I first got them I wasn’t impressed. I became impressed until the next day. They sounded totally different so tomorrow night might be a great showdown as well as Saturday. Both amps will be fully warm Saturday afternoon before the shoot out. I want both to at least be idling for a full day. The preamp and dac will be on 3 hours before the shootout begins. My buddies will jot down their impressions on paper and each person will listen alone without anyone else in the room so that nobody is biased. Once each person listens to about 3 songs through each amp (their own selection) then the next person will go inside and do the same until we are all done. I will then collect their notes and see what each person decided and their opinion on the amplifiers. I will be sure to post what each one of them wrote down on paper. |
Russ (@benzman) - Don't know exact dimensions but you can see several pics of WC's listening space with much of the equipment he's gone through on his system page: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7631 |
After looking a little closer I would think that room is 16x 13 The bay window may help but WC must be hitting 115 dB. I don’t know how he can get proper bass as you need a 30 ft room for a 20 hz note and he has no treatments. Awesome system for sure but the room makes more difference than all the equipment makes. WC try sitting near field at the same distance that your speakers are apart. Take the room right out of the equation. Little stool with no back is perfect. I have tried to keep up on this thread ,did you mention something about another room /space you where working on? |
@techno_dude - Ref10 is an audio dinosaur 🦕.. Old story in a new world were less is more.techno_dude - in a recent home audition of the highly regarded New ARC Reference 160M Monoblocks compared to my Ancient Industrial looking ARC Ref. 250SE Monoblocks, a group of audiophiles listened for hours comparing the two amps. A week prior to this session I was told by Audio Research’s Dave Gordon “the Ref 160Ms were better sounding than the Ref 250SE’s.” At the end of the session The eight of us unanimously liked the Ref 250SE over the Ref 160M. It wasn’t close, the 250SE’s were more transparent with greater detail and dimensionality, ballsier (dynamic), with excellent tonal shadings and timbral accuracy. The overall sound was more palatable and took you to the hall. There was a sophistication to the sound of the 250SE’s the 160Ms could not match. I truly wanted the Ref 160M because of their modern see through metered front glass but their sound left me wanting more. The 160M are very good and can be compared to the latest Mercedes E-Class while the Ref 250SE are a 2015 Mercedes S-Class with the AMG package ( Rolled 6H30P-DR and Winged C SED 6550C tubes) and provided greater performance. Newer is not necessarily better. |
@jafox Sure there are more detailed cables than the Dominus , but there comes a point where too much is TOO MUCH. If you can’t turn it up loud (Reference levels )and listen for extended periods before it becomes too fatiguing, then to me it ,is too much to take. Sure it is very impressive to have Huge detail, but it gets fatiguing very quickly.I’ll take Musical over hyper detail all day. .To each his own. |
jafox and WC, You can make a judgment about the sonic character of preamps by using any decent source, such as phono system, or even a plain CD player playing good recordings. A great sounding recording played on a modest phono or cheap CD system will sound better than an average sounding recording on the most expensive, prestigious equipment. Doing so will also make it easier to do A/B testing of preamps. It is not necessary to have a DAC, whether cheap or expensive, to do these tests. Also, it is true that I have not personally heard most of the equipment discussed here at home. But accepting WC's honest and accurate descriptions of sound characteristics, and my own experience with many past models, I can comment. He seems to value big soundstages and high volume dynamics, especially in the bass over everything else. Using this value system, the Titan and ref 10 are tops, but I am still waiting to hear about how the Titan rates for the core qualities of music, which are tone, LF/HF extension, clarity, coherence, detail, rhythm, transient snap at all freq and all volume levels from loud to very soft. For these core qualities, ref 6 is clearly superior to ref 10, according to WC's honest descriptions. I suspect the same is true about the superiority of the Block over the Titan, although we will wait until WC addresses these core qualities of the Titan. Let's see what his buddies find--WC, ask them to do a checklist for all the core qualities I have mentioned. Also, as indicated by jonaiken, unbiased home listening tests show the superiority of the ARC 250SE over the 160M's, despite the sales pitch by marketing man Dave Gordon to the contrary. Yes, "newer is not necessarily better," and I'll add that more expensive is not necessarily better. |
Yes great stuff here thanks. I have been moving up the PS Audio food chain. In the fall I purchased the Stellar Gain stack, with the Stellar Gain Pre Amp / DAC and a pair of the M700 mono class D amps. This was for my new basement system with my KEF Reference 205's (very revealing speakers with the hyper tweeters)and a M&K sub. This was to be my 'second' system' and I started by wanting a nice integrated, but changed to the Stellar Gain Stack. Well it sounded good; but to compare, my upstairs is Classe SSP-800, Classe CA2300 amp, B&W N802's and a pair of Paradigm Sub 15's. So the Stellar Gain stack sounded good (fed by the digital outs of a Bluesound Node 2 streaming Tidal / Roon), but not a like upstairs (high standard). So I talked to PS and decided to upgrade to the Direct Stream Junior DAC, and got into the whole do I need a preamp or not question. They encouraged me to keep the Stellar Pre, and use the new DSJ for DAC. Things sounded better but not.... so I then ordered the BHK preamp tp replace the Stellar Gain (still using the M700 amps). WOW WOW WOW. the BHK totally opened things up, smoothed things out and took away my listening fatigue, Love the BHK pre. So now I am getting to my amp questions. I am considering the BHK 250 stereo amp, as I again have the wonderful opportunity through PSAudio to upgrade. But since I own a killer stereo amp (Classe 2300) I lugged it downstairs (about 100lbs) and have been comparing the Classe with the nice light M700 mono digital amps. I was hoping to not hear a significant difference, but I do. The Classe is just way better. So now I want to upgrade to the BHK 250 stereo amp (can't do the BHK 300 mono amps do t space and $). Has anyone made this comparison between the PS Audio BHK 250 stereo amp and the Classe CA2300? What differences will I see with the tube front end of the BHK? Most BHK amp reviews focus on the 300 mono blocks...Will the 250 still be amazing? Thanks! |
While we are eagerly awaiting the Sat night EVENT, I'll tell how I was introduced to the Emotiva. My long time friend and patient had several big Soundlab electrostatics driven by the top Pass amps of the day. Then he got advanced stage 4 lung cancer, which was unusual not being a smoker. I thought he was going to die soon, but he went to a top NY hospital where he got specific targeted treatment for the genetic mutation that caused his cancer. Fortunately, his other audiophile friend is the CEO of that hospital, so he got the best care. He is still living 6 years after that diagnosis, which is almost unheard of. But the drugs for this genetic mutation cost $100,000 per year. Even with his friend's help, he is financially strapped, so he had to sell his Soundlabs and Pass gear. So he went on a quest to find great cheap amps and came up with the Emotiva. He found the Emotiva to be more accurate than his Pass, although the Pass was sweeter. I was the only one of his audio friends to pick up on this, as all his other audio club members are stubborn and euphonically oriented. My friend, who has seen the relative importance of many things in his life, knows the value of money to be spent on vital things, yet still knows that the Emotiva is one of the finest amps out there and is living well to enjoy his music. |
Hello WC, your upcoming shootout sounds exciting... If I might make a suggestions.... Why don't you also add a couple or three of your own selections that each of your friends must also listen to.... That would add a common source material baseline for them to evaluate, in addition to their own test tracks. Can't wait for your post- shootout findings! Saluti, Guido
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fastfreight, I can't answer your question exactly, but I recently had the Classe D200 class D at home for 2 months. It was nicely detailed and to the warm side of neutral with good detail and space. Compared to my unusual Bryston 2.5B SST2, it was too warm for me, with rolled off HF. But the Classe was superior to the Bryston 4B SST2 for these qualities. Other Brystons were inferior to this Classe in neutrality and freq extension. I think Classe is an excellent company. When I spoke to them a year ago, they were working on new designs, so I would hold off on PS Audio stuff until you see what develops with Classe. |
Something for WC to try, if he has not already... I’m guessing that when the Ref10 is in the chain, balanced cables are used to connect to the amps - is that true? If so, then I’m also guessing that single-ended cables are used from Lampi to amps, when the Ref10 is not in the chain - is that true as well? If both are true, then it would be interesting to compare SE cables from Ref10 to amps vs. the same SE cables from Lampi to amps. Some folks are saying that balanced is no better than SE. Would the performance be closer than that of Balanced cables from Ref10 to amps vs SE cables from Lampi to amps? That’s the SE vs balanced experiment. Overall, I think it might be tough to beat an outstanding preamp, even when going more oranges to oranges (single-ended to amps for both scenarios). I remember when WC first got the Ref10 into his system - he was so impressed, I believe he named it the most impressive component he’d had in his system to that point. That’s saying a lot, considering how much equipment he’s had. Dave |
Still, I would never buy nor a Ref6 nor a Ref10 , and it’s not that I can’t afford them. Mucho overpriced for what they are. That being said, I would not hesitate to buy the Lampi Pacific dac with internal pre option. Much more value into that smart buy, I don’t care if the ARC is 1% better on soundstage or tonal coloration... |
Value is especially subjective in audio when one is trying to maintain synergy in a system and changing out a product with an exceptional following does not always yield the results you were expecting. WC suggests as most do that synergy is key. Example Luxman C900 supposedly is better than ARC Ref 6. It may be but not in my trials where even the Ref 5SE bettered the Luxman considerably. Hence the Ref 5SE was the bargain not overpriced. I have heard the Ref 40th anniversary, similar to the Ref10 and it was miles ahead of the 5SE. It's all about the cast of characters that surround the product you are evaluating. |
GTAphile, you’re the 3rd person that confirms what I’ve been saying: ref10 is miles ahead of many preamps out there. It’s almsot a laughing matter when comparing the ref10 to other preamps. It’s a spectacular preamp to say the least. Man, the titan amp came and has caused havoc here. What an stupendous power amp. People are spending far more on amps and this amp would stump on most a amps out there. I hope you are all learning a thing or 2 here. |
gtaphile, What specific sonic characteristics did you hear that made the ref 5SE "better" than the Luxman C900? Same question for how the ref 40th anniversary was "better" than the ref 5SE. As you say, values are subjective and an individual matter, so unless the reader knows what your values are, it is impossible to know what you mean by "better." Even if you don't mention your values, if you avoid using the term, "better" which is meaningless, but you factually describe what you hear, that is more useful. For example, if you describe something as being less strident in HF and fuller in the bass, that is useful information for someone who wants that type of sound, and also useful for someone who wants a more analytic sound who can then look elsewhere. |