Uh, Viber6.
IT IS THE MID-RANGE...that gives the soundstage more than anything.
.See below :
RE:TREBLE
(1)FORWARD- if applied to treble, is very similar to bright; both describe too much treble. A forward treble, however, also tends to be dry, lacking space and air around it. Many of the terms listed above have virtually identical meanings. Hard, brittle, and metallic all describe an unpleasant treble characteristic that reminds one of metal being struck. In fact, the unique harmonic structure created from the impact of metal on metal is very similar to the distortion introduced by a solid-state power amplifier when it is asked to play louder than it is capable of playing.
(2)GOOD TREBLE-The following terms, listed in order of increasing magnitude, describe good treble performance: smooth, sweet, soft, silky, gentle, liquid, and lush. When the treble becomes overly smooth, we say it is romantic, rolled-off, or syrupy. A treble described as "smooth, sweet, and silky" is being complimented; "rolled-off and syrupy" suggests that the component goes too far in treble smoothness, and is therefore colored. A rolled-off and syrupy treble may be blessed relief after hearing bright, hard, and grainy treble, but it isn’t musically satisfying in the long run. Such a presentation tends to become bland, uninvolving, slow, thick, closed-in, and lacking detail. All these terms describe the effects of a treble presentation that errs too far on the side of smoothness..
RE:MID-RANGE
(1) MID-RANGE- Too much mid-range energy can make the presentation seem forward and "in your face." A broad dip in the mid-range response (too little mid-range energy over a wide frequency span) can give an impression of greater distance between you and the presentation.
This info is from :
Guide to High-Performance Audio Systems by Robert Harley , Editor-in-Chief of The Absolute Sound magazine. |
Interesting read greyhound. I liked it alot. I’d say syrupy is what I despite but some
say tubes are rolled off and yet I don’t believe they are. There’s nothing boring about tubes in my opinion. I actually love the level of engagement that tubes give you because sounds so good. |
Glad you liked it WCSS. I think it is spot on, from my experience.
To me Tubes are the closest to the real think . Tubes are NOT rolled off. Tubes sound more real to me than anything, at least with the music that I listen to which is mostly Jazz, Blues, Funk,Electronica, and Lounge.
To me, there is just something artificial and not natural about Solid State IMO You especially notice this after you have owned or heard tubes. |
Thanks for sharing that grey9hound. I agree with viber6 that I don't want an overly cavernous soundstage that is not real. And, I agree that tubes aren't necessarily rolled off - depending upon how something is designed of course. The most real system I ever heard was tubes. It was really 3D and did not sound rolled off at all. Even knowing that though, I don't want to mess with tubes (I've had them - a Cary SLP05 preamp), especially since I no longer do 2 channel, so I find myself gravitating to solid state amps (along with my Theta CBIV) and cabling that takes me towards that sound, along with dynamics to handle the home theater.
Dave
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Your space certainly needs an area rug... |
You all can thank the wife. She added an area rug today. Look at the last picture I just added to my virtual system.
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Ok so while we wait for the musical fidelity titan to arrive next month, those of you who have experience with acoustic treatments, go ahead and look at the last picture of my room. I’m open to hearing what you would add to the walls, where on the wall and where do you recommend I purchase it. I keep hearing I need bass traps before anything right in the corners behind the Neoliths. One thing I wanted to add is that I’m not going to take down the tv (my daughter watches tv there and so do we) since I know some will say to remove the tv. I’ve also read somewhere that adding a blanket over the tv when listening or some sort of deflection is all a waste of time because the tv hardly interacts with the speakers since it’s almoar between the speakers and about 5 feet behind the speakers. Again, I’m not an expert but that’s what I’ve read so far. Please advise and see what we can do with my room. |
My advice for 2019 is for WC’s future buyers.
Bid lower than normal resale value and be patient. WC has most probably paid much less than the asking price. I realized this when I offered him my Lux 900u at much lower than what they usually pop on AG or Canuck, and I was astonished by his response ...He could get one for much lower than my offer.., with his audio relationships. That’s when I knew this thread was about sota amps and speakers , and also some bit about getting reputable brands at bargain price. ( to be able to move them quick and most probably make a profit).
Happy new year to everyone.
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WC, you opened the doors to the barn for your new friends. |
@whitecamaross
Your room has some good aspect to it like right and left wall are not parallel.
To improve it,
1- absorb and diffuse panels left,right to the TV,on the selling and behind your seat more absorption.
2- Utilize your carpet in front your speakers and your seat
3- The speaker and your gear better not to touch the floor directly, get some thick carpet for them.
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WCSS, I don’t know about acoustic treatments but I am taken aback by what appears to be your most long standing component-that crappy rack! I mean, considering the amount you have spent on gear -even your cable cost is approaching 5 figures and yet, you are still using that homemade looking, vibration inducing flexy stuff most of us outgrew when we left the college dorm along with our cinder block furniture. Seriously, investigate some of the incredible options out there. I think you are missing out on the benefits of isolation and vibration control that could take your system to yet another level. |
WCSS, I would love to send to you these Granite Audio 864SR Mono amps that I have with the Nos Tubes and the Jupiter Copper Foil coupling caps , but I know they will not work on your current speakers.
If you happen to get something that is in the 92db and above efficiency range, they would work. So , if that happens ,I can get them to you for a listen. |
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WC,
Take a panoramic picture of your room and email it to GIK. They will provide recommendations at no cost. |
Awesome guys. I appreciate the wealth of information I’m getting here. I will certainly be looking into each of your responses once I have the time to sit down and do more research based on your suggestions.
For now, the main focus (aside from my primary focus which is amplifiers) is to bring my room a little more “closer” to optimal sound. Of course, it won’t ever be what a perfectly shaped room with carpet would be and I understand that.
I appreciate those you who keep contributing with real advice and who are able to keep this thread going.
Also, Part of my new 2019 approach will be to develop thicker skin (as mentioned above) and to just totally ignore those with negative criticism and who don’t add anything of value here anymore. Silence is best practice in order to avoid any issues. If you see me no longer responding to you on here then either I haven’t gotten around to it or I’m doing what I am stating above.
Thank you again ! |
@spinaker
I agree with you. I don’t exactly love them but when I moved into this house, I needed something to put my gear on. I just ended up buying those on the fly locally from a salamander dealer who had them available. That’s pretty much how I ended up with them. Trust me, the wife also tells me the same thing you’re echoing here. For now they will stay until I address some of my acoustic issues.
See, I knew posting pics of my gear/room would open a can of worms but I am fine with it. I’ll take the good with the bad then make the best of it.
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Did you do also do it this way to treat your room?
@ricred1
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WC,
If it were me.... I would put full length heavy drapes on side and back walls. It would be just like a theater. Pull cords on the sides would move the drapes open or closed. On the back wall where the TV is would require a full length drape system that would open on each side. The results would be much better than absorption panels. Remember, you have dipole speakers, and they bounce off everything. On the floor, well, that is up to you. But my choice would be heavy pile carpeting from end to end all the way to your chairs, or do the whole room. The difference will isolate the sound coming from the speaker in a way that will give you a reflection free room. I have used these principles many times before to garner great results. And cost wise, it is a cheap one.
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shannere,
I agree. I have my preferences for maximizing enjoyment of my music, and this certainly applies to others. I love upfront clarity and excitement. Two popular audiophile recordings are Jazz at the Pawnshop, and Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances with the Dallas Symphony conducted by Donald Johanos. Jazz was made at a small club in Stockholm which I visited. The atmosphere is cozy and intimate with a small stage. All the instruments are brilliantly clear and upfront. I can't imagine anyone going to a jazz club that isn't excited about that style of sound. The Rachmaninoff recording was made in a small auditorium with a shallow stage and close simple miking. The back row of brass instruments is direct sound that is just as thrillingly exciting as the front solo violin. Minimal depth of field, but everything presented with great clarity. I learned the piece through this recording. Subsequently, I heard other recordings made with more emphasis on auditorium sound with a laid back perspective. The reverberance detracts from the clarity, and the overall effect is boring and murky by comparison.
Also, I look for recordings of all types of music that are upfront. As long as the sound is exciting, I can expand my appreciation of all types of music. As you say, it is all about appreciation of the music. Every artist works hard to express his/her craft, and I feel that trying to obtain maximum clarity enables me to appreciate the most content on that recording, which helps my admiration and respect for the artist. There are flaws in the performances even with editing and such, but I forgive the flaws in return for more perception and appreciation of the wonderful artistry. |
@bigddesign do you have any pictures where I can visualize this ? |
WC,
Yes, several years ago I sent them pictures. They recommended my current treatment and for me to add a wall on my right side if possible. My room was open on my side and I hired a contractor to add a wall with French doors. I added the room treatment several months later. As a matter of fact I sent them pictures of my room two weeks ago and they provided additional suggestions. I can send them to you if you like? ASC is another company that provides Acoustic treatment. I think ASC quality is a little better, but they do cost more. |
sure. i will try to reach out to them next month to see what they suggest.
i appreciate the feedback man. |
My goal is to use these guys with local support from Galen Carol in San Antonio. High WAF with the low WAF Neo's. https://www.vicoustic.com/I will post before and after pics once the project begins |
Another endorsement of GIK, their stuff works and it's reasonably priced. And yes, pretty much everybody needs bass traps at least in the front corners. GIK make a variety of triangular models with different designs for SAF. |
Perfect. I Will have to reach out to them then.
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Remember guys, on a pair of 30k msrp speakers, around 35% is markup that goes to the dealer. The makers is left with around 18k, so my guess is most probably 10k is what the makers is doing in profit...the speakers should cost the makers around 8k to build or even less...
My point is if a dealer wants to get rid of a pair of speakers , he can sell it at cost price to WC. Or maybe less sometimes, if the brand wants to get exposure. My guess is the Block Audio Czech brand sold him the monos at less than 50% msrp. The maker is not loosing money, he could even go to 30% msrp just to get the thread talk about the amps... Marketing has changed with internet, and now forums are getting more and more a way to promote the gear. Think about it, it s all clear now.
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Markup depends on several factors and on speakers it can be between 35 - 50%. |
Techno,
i actually got the block audios for $1,000. They shipped them to me for free and I did not pay upfront either. They almost paid my plane ticket too to come to the factory and wanted me to hook them up with deals as well. Yes they gave me a $64,000 dollar discount on the $65,000 retail Monos. They were actually cheaper than emotiva amplifiers. Isn’t that cool ? Why don’t you start your own thread so you can also reap on the benefits of getting stuff for 99% off discount? I mean you do have Luxman and McIntosh so you can always start there. Maybe Luxman offers you a mono 900u and matching preamp for 99% off retail as well if you get your thread going? I believe you can email them directly. Everything I have displayed on my pictures was free. I am a mastermind of tricking manufacturers into giving me stuff for free so I can talk about it because I have the same following as LeBron James does in basketball or tiger woods in golf. Everyone who follows my thread is loaded with money so manufacturers can’t even keep inventory or deal with the massive amount of traction i am creating for them. They actually told me to slow down my thread for the holidays because they didn’t have enough manpower through the holidays to keep up with the demand I’m creating for them. It’s very simple to sell the stuff I own. Would you believe Me if I told you that it is easy to sell a pair of neoltihs which is why I had to get them? Yea a lot of people got the money needed to buy them under their mattress. It’s super simple :) |
Sarcasm Party of 1, Sarcasm Party of 1........ |
And this is 1 of the many reasons I stopped posting here. Happy New Year to all......and always......Enjoy ! MrD. |
Happy new year @mrdecibel |
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So it appears that the Rowland 925s will go head to head against the block audios in February (date to be determined). The goal is to have both at once and let the showdown begin. My good friend David will ship me his 925s and then I’ll ship my block audios and 925s to him so that he can also do his own shootout with mágico and ref10 which he also owns.
Gryphon will also make an appearance in my room in 2019. Mark my words that I will Finally get my hands on one of their amps.
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whitecamarossHappy New Year!
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WC,
I am eagerly awaiting your A/B of the Rowland 925 and Block. Sorry to keep repeating, but Guido says that the Rowland 535 is very nearly as good as the 925 overall, and in the HF the 535 is slightly more revealing. A stereo 535 has similar specified power specs as the Block, except that not being class A it doesn’t gobble up the electrical power. I hope Dave's 925 is broken in. By the way, when you had the 925 before, what differences in sound did you notice from day 1 to as long as you had them? Was your day 1 already broken in?
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Hello Viber, I have made no secret that I do love M535, and that this bridgeable amplifier is a stellar high performer at its price point... Having said this, M925 is superior overall, except perhaps for M535 being subtly more open in the treble. Whether the slight enhanced openness in the M535 over M925 is an indication of being "better" is purely a value judgement, and depends on the particular preference and tone concept of the user... I love the additional openness, but others might prefer a smidgeon more conservative treble.
Worth pointing out that the enhanced openness of M535 does not imply a hump or overpressure in the treble, but a slight enhancement of very low level detail in that region.
I venture to suspect that if WCSS were ever grooveed up in giving M535 a try, a bridged pair might be more indicated than a single stereo unit, his speakers enjoying high power, and WCSS listening often at high SPL, which a bridged pair would deliver without battin n "ear" :)
Saluti, and a Happy New Year to our gang gathered around WCSS great audio watering hole!
G.
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Interesting guido. I might venture into 535s after I do a shootout between the blocks and the 925s.
I remember the 925s being very smooth and incredibly engaging. I actually remember them sounding like Luxman 900u when I used the 900u preamp with them. I was very very shocked to say the least. That 900u pre and 925s was indeed impressive. |
Has anyone here heard the Lamm 1.2 Monos? Those amps have always caught my attention because I’ve noticed that they use tubes and output class a. I’m wondering how they sound. |
In case you did not know , it (Lamm M1.2) is a Hybrid monoblock power amplifier with solid-state input stage, a tubed driver stage(6922), and a MOSFET output stage.
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Hello WCSS, I had also found a common theme in the house sound of Luxman and Rowland, in spite that the two companies are using different technologies.
I am looking forward to your side-by-side experience of Block Audio and M925.... As for M535, there are a couple of Rowland dealers in Florida worth contacting when the time is right for you.
Saluti, Guido
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Whitecamaross,
First - a safe, healthy, prosperous and Happy New Year to all :-)
I've heard the Lamm 1.2's, a while ago but the key points still very much remembered. The equipment was familiar - Wilson Sasha I's, Meridian 861v6, high end MIT Oracle cables. The listening session was an extended, private session at a high end retailer in NYC with other audiophiles.
I was doing this because we were going to invest in amplifiers for our integrated theater system (our set up has an emphasis on 2 channel audio) and I wanted to specifically evaluate the Lamm 1.2's.
Before I comment - I have to state when evaluating equipment (and set ups for that matter) that my personal objective (with our system) is to recreate the live performance as convincingly as possible, with my reference being actual live performances. While I cannot compare all recorded music to it's live performance, critiquing a system in this perspective distinguishes components in a manner that is different from outright performance. Case in point with the great Lamm 1.2's.
Our current system, while not near the level of performance of your system / components, strives to accomplish this and does so convincingly (I was astonished when our son played his saxophone in our music room and I play some well recorded saxophone music). Room acoustics play a very significant role as well (being an engineer, I crudely treated our room with good results).
Back to the Lamm 1.2's - after CRITICAL listening to Momentum amplifiers (the most similar to our own Pass XA200.5's but reviewed as having better bass in a major magazine - I couldn't tell this in that system and time frame), Spectral amplifiers (SLIGHTLY dry) and Lamm 1.2's (SLIGHTLY bass heavy).
The Pass and Momentum amplifiers reproduce and allow one to hear into the recorded venue as it was performed - something that is critical to me. In this system, most noticeably the Lamm 1.2's produced slightly more bass then the other amplifiers - a critical evaluation here but noticed by all present and confirmed by those present who were intimate with the performance.
BTW - the previous comments on the other amplifiers were also easily recognized and agreed upon by all present once properly described, except for the Pass / Momentum comparison - which is my own comment.
So, while the Lamm 1.2's were SLIGHTLY bass heavy in that system (synergy no doubt playing an issue here), with their performance being very very good, someone who evaluates equipment on outright performance might prefer the Lamm 1.2's because of their slight increased bass. Yet, when compared to the live performance, this SLIGHT increase in bass wasn't natural.
I hope not to get involved in any negativity that has occurred previously in this thread. I'm a humble individual who respects everyone's experiences and opinions and believe everyone benefits from sharing while respecting each other. I no longer have the time to go and evaluate equipment like I used to, and there are significantly less brick and mortar retailers with this level of equipment - so I very much value our sharing. This is the intent I post with.
While I have a million things to take care of daily, I will most certainly assemble a room and system that I'll be willing to share with fellow audiophiles with a sense of confidence. How long it will take me is a good question - and while others compliment our system, I think we all can agree that we're the most critical of our own system when sharing it with others (at least I know I am). I found myself explaining our system's limits / weaknesses after extended listening - while a few very good friends told me to shut up because they were enjoying the music!
Best New Year to all :-) |
Awesome post. I like the way you explained what you liked and disliked. This is helpful to me so I have an idea of what to expect in the event that I end up buying them
@tjassoc
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I want to ask each and everyone of you one question: what is the best amplifier you’ve heard or owned and why? Let me hear your thoughts. This should be interesting. |
WC,
I hate using the word best, so I'll say prefer. I prefer my Jeff Rowland 625 S2 to any amplfier I've heard, with the exception of the Absolare Tube mono-amps. I've compared the 625 S2 to the BHK 300s, Bryston 4B3, Esoteric S-02, Bricasti M28 mono-amps, Bel Canto Ref 1000, and McIntosh 601. In my system, to my ears the 625 S2 sounds different with every recording...e.g. my system can sound bright, laid back, big soundstage, small soundstage, bad recordings sound bad, great recordings sound great! That being said, I would love the same sound with more power, because I think additional headroom helps when I have moments when I really want to turn up the volume.
Now, if I had a smaller room, listened at moderate levels, didn't have my amp driving my front speakers when watching a movie, and the Absolare wasn't $80K a pair I would have Absolare.
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I do not know if it is the best amp that i have ever heard , but it is my favorite. That would be the McIntosh MC30 mono blocks re-done by Yves Beauvais.
The tube compliments for each amp are Two 12AX7s, One 12AU7, One 12BH7, two 6L6GC output tubes and a 5U4GB rectifier.
With the right NOS Tubes in there it is amazing
Wit the following tubes for the pair of amps , it is hard to beat IMO
V1=12AX7---A matched pair of Telefunken from west Germany.
V2=12AU7 --A matched pair of RCA Clear Tops
V3=12BH7A --A matched pair of RCA
V4=12AX7 --A matched pair of Amperex
Rectifier pair = National Union 5U4GB
Output tubes Quad = GE 6L6GC from the 1960s with O Getter
These amps are very open yet resolving .,with a great 3D soundstage
The Deep Bass Articulation is unreal for 30 watt amps.,but, you need highly efficient speakers.
I think that my favorite output tube is the 6L6GC. (very even and detailed with great bass )
Guess who else said the 6L6GC is their favorite............Roger Modjeski
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Interesting guys.... keep them coming. I want to see what are your preferences.
Greyhound, I’m not surprised with your pick. You have a soft spot for tubes and so do I. I can’t deny it. |
WC,
While we are awaiting your most interesting A/B of the Rowland and Block, maybe you could give your promised comparison of the treble of the Plinius to the Block. We know you like the Block better in most ways, but you have been a little silent on the treble. If the Plinius' treble is more extended, then an interesting comparison would be the treble of the Plinius vs the Rowland.
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