I was speaking with a friend today with H4s and he’s tried all sorts of different amps and tubes, SET, Single Ended Pentode, Ultralinear, standard push-pull Pentode, various amps, custom boutique amp builds with 6L6, 807s, EL84, psvane EL34s recently. We’ve both tried various dacs too. The QS Mid-Monos can be nice...
We re-confirmed a few times - having the right DAC, and upgraded linestage preamp w/the right tubes and caps, and decent cabling - all makes a difference with your Hersey H4s.
imo, I’d be going after that QS Linestage next if I were you. Helped a few friends on upgrading theirs. Having the transformer/ground checked for noise. Better 12AT7s and caps in the QS pre/linestage helps more, along with quiet AC power.
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hmm, not sure what you are saying here.
"""imo, I’d be going after that QS Linestage next if I were you. Helped a few friends on upgrading theirs. Having the transformer/ground checked for noise. Better 12AT7s and caps in the QS pre/linestage helps more, along with quiet AC power."""
I have a QS Line pre and everything is perfecto. Maybe I didn't explain what I was trying to in opening post, but my problem was the KT88's. With the e34L's Im in audio bliss. But I do appreciate your input.
T
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@tonydennison if you are truly in audio bliss, stop here. If not, read on. ...
Beyond your TubeDepot EL34s that just arrived for you - What I’m saying is a stock QS Linestage preamp is leaving a bit on the table that you’ve not begun to realize or experience yet with your H4s. I have have four friends with the QS LS, a local long term QS dealer, and after doing upgrades to the QS LS, tube changes, caps, and more inside it was an even greater improvement. Notably. Then, when they swapped in a really good 6SN7 preamp instead of the QS linestage, all of the sudden their H4s began to really sing. All preference of course. One other here [on this forum] is now reselling a majorly upgraded QS Linestage after hearing what a great 6SN7 pre can do with QS mono amplifiers. I also own upgraded QS amps and a 6SN7 triode preamp myself, fwiw. Imo, you’ve just begin to hear the new H4s is what I’m saying. If you take a few more steps, can be worth it. Best of Luck.
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@decooney is giving good advice. I owned the Quicksilver linestage, and while it is basically good, it will definitely benefit from upgrading.
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Tubes: burn in for 60 hours, then listen. (60 hrs on, no music playing needed, just on)
Different types of tubes CAN make BIG differences.
Different brands of same tube can make a large or small difference.
Keep in mind: 'Preferred' is not 'Better'.
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+1 @roxy54
Keeping in mind these units (preamps and amps) are built to a price point and the average person is absolutely good with any of these units in stock form. For the other 10% of us who want more, it can be achieved within reason, and for fairly low cost too. I recommend this (sometimes) IF someone is thinking of moving to another preamp, you can try this first before you do. It can pay off or help you stay put another couple of years. Again talking about the 10% seeking a difference.
What I’ve learned about Mike and QS over the years is he’s not a fan of returned units for repairs. He sells components all over the world. My larger QS M120 amps came with proven ultra-reliable coupling caps used in guitar amps. They sounded kinda okay for some. Not to my ears really. The caps cost about $4.95/ea new, so go figure form there. I DID let them run for a year as-is, thinking the stop caps were chosen for sound too. Uh, not for me. Removed them, and installed some really good Mundorf Silver-Gold EVO non oilers. Same caps used in my Cary Audio amps. Super happy with the change and results. My QS amps took on a different signature, similar to what I've heard in other tube amps at 2-3x the price.
A few friends and colleagues started doing the same with their preamps, QS Linestage, starting with much improved input/driver tubes. Some stop here, all good. Then realizing a nice difference, went for changing out coupling caps next (opinions/experiences vary here), caps can be a preference and varies by individuals, depending what you want "more" or "less" of from the sound after trying really good small tubes first. Whey ready, plan for a few other upgrades if you have a local tech to help, or ready to do it yourself. Can be a nice lift for ya, if interested.
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The H4 is not a great all arounder and is very particular not only with gear and positioning, but also song selection. Some stuff sounds amazing, other stuff not so much. I don’t think I’d be interested in these if they were going to be my only set of speakers. Some of the reviews are a bit more open about that then others. The H4 best fits someone who has another set of speakers to rotate in and wants something unique and different. They also appeal to me because its like owning a piece of American audio history. I’m a fan of "Heritage" reissue gear like the KLH model 5 and Wharfedale Lintons.
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@decooney
Ahhhhh, I get it. OK
Tell me about these 6SN7 preamps or are you saying the QS can be converted? That would be scary but I am interested. The problem would be not being able to switch back easily.
As for changing the caps only, what characteristic changes occur with different caps?
Thank you
T
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@roxy54
And what specific upgrades did have done and who did it and how long did it take? Have you also heard a 6SN7 preamp and is that even nicer?
Are you or others using QS monoblocks and what are everybody's source materical appliances?
I'm thinking it my be best to through in a 6SN7 preamp and compare rather than convert a QS LP and always wonder " is it better? was it a mistake? etc"
Any suggestions from anyone on a 6SN7 preamp? I'd like to stay American and of course as cheaply as is practicable.
Thank you,
T
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@tonydennison oh, "for what it’s worth". And you see YMMY "your mileage may may vary" :) . You’ll see these types of disclaimer escape phrases because many of us can hear things differently too. Different rooms, cables, speakers, all matters.
As for 6SN7 Linestages and Preamps, it’s worth doing some self-research, starting with search, i.e. on Agon, searching for "6SN7 Linestage" subject line only; you will find many threads to look over in the past decade+. Many of us have our own preferences to these 6SN7 preamps too...
Many manufacturers like QS went to smaller 12aU7 and 12AT7 tube based preamps 5-10 years ago due to scarcity of 6SN7 tubes, THEN more N7 and L7 new production tubes started showing back up past 3-5 years. So, some nice options here again with new production too. An upgraded preamp with 12ax7, 12au7, 12at7 can sound really good too, so don’t count that out if you want to get yours upgraded. This can be a really nice stepping stone too, or "good enough" :)
https://forum.audiogon.com/search/index?utf8=✓&query=6sn7+linestage
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@decooney
"the average person is absolutely good with any of these units in stock form. For the other 10% of us who want more, it can be achieved within reason, and for fairly low cost too."
Yeah, I like the quest as well, but Im just worried about F' - ing something up. I have too much experience with that :-) .
If I had a tech-friend in the neighborhood that could make changes and put things back as they were just in case within a short time, I would be all over it. As is known, a lot of this is subjective. I am know regretting selling previous GS pre's. It would be a no brainer if I had a QS backup.
OK, back to me F-ing things up....
Cap upgrade, what am I looking for in caps and what changes can I expect after I switch them out, just generally, ie what are the benefits of upgraded caps?
Other internal upgrades, what are they and how are they done?
Or are the 6SN7 preamps far superior negating the upgrading of the QS.
The 6SN7 preamp's, all I see on line seem to be kits, are they a rarity?
T
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@perkadin
"Some stuff sounds amazing, other stuff not so much."
Yes, I hear you. So far I'm finding, luckily, the stuff I like most is sounding great. And although it's true some sound, NOT so great, these are things, so far, I can live without, but I don't believe there is any speaker that can do everything great. At the moment I'm happy to deal with this tradeoff. And I think it's always been this way.
Thanks
T
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OK, thank you all 'for all the input.
I think I will look into upgrading the caps in both my line pre and the mid-monos.
Is there a site you can recommend so I can learn what I need to so I don't kill myself or the amps? I imagine it is just locate the caps, remove & solder in the new ones, but I don't know what I don't know, so better to do some reading. I did build a step-up transformer many years ago.
How many caps are we talking about in the blocks and the pre?
BTW I cannot find any of the "non-oilers" when it comes to the Mundorf Silver-Gold EVO's and are there any other suggestions or should I stick to them when I find them. Can you recommend a shop to purchase?
Thanks
T
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@tonydennison can you do some searching for a local tech near your first, and can DM private message from there. Caps are like ice cream flavors, depends on what you like more/less of with the sound. I’d recommend leaving the caps alone [for now] in the Mid Mono amps and start with focus on the Linestage first, Tubes +Caps. Also, it’s helpful to do these separately, one at a time [if you can] you’ll learn and appreciate it more incrementally, if you have someone local. It’s usually not overly expensive to have a good local tech do this for you, and test after - important to test that QS LS for noise too, isolate. Some had to fiddle with the ground and one of the transformers to quiet it down even more. CAN be really nice with a little care and feeding on next steps. Also a more affordable option.
IF you share your local city here, i’m sure someone near you might have a tech or area to drive to. Best to find someone you can drive to up to a few hrs away vs. shipping damage. Most good techs have been-there-done that with these easy steps for them. Worth searching a good local tech first, take it from there, imo.
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@decooney
"can you do some searching for a local tech near your first"
LOL, I just did. I emailed the two hifi shops in MLPS just 10 minutes ago.
Thanks
TD
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@decooney
"IF you share your local city here, i’m sure someone near you might have a tech or area to drive to."
Yes. Anyone recommend someone in MLPS to reach out to? I sent emails to Minneapolis Hi Fi and HiFiSound.
Thanks
T
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@tonydennison "fasten your seatbelts, clearing for departure", lol.
Just did a quick "Tube Amp Repair" check on Yelp nearby, shows you've got 10 different guitar and different vintage outfits near you. Nice. The next phase can be fun. Enjoy!
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I upgraded my QS linestage with caps and it made it better but I had the chance to a/b it over months against a 6SN7 based preamp based on the deHavilland ultraverve 3. That did it. Sold the QS linestage. That’s my two sense: 6SN7 instead of the 12AT7’s.
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Or are the 6SN7 preamps far superior negating the upgrading of the QS.
This depends on whether you like the sound of 6SN7. It cannot be answered in the abstract.
The 6SN7 preamp’s, all I see on line seem to be kits, are they a rarity?
There are many 6SN7 based preamps that are not kits. See this.
Don’t know where you got your impression.
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In that same Agon MN Audio Society thread @hilde45 posted is a website, and all of these guys built their own preamps up there. Definitely a few audio members around you there. Maybe not tube guys - but these guys will know the locals and who has something else there to try, build, or buy. Worth a look here too.
This was a few years back, but look at these guys all standing there super proud of their custom preamp builds, straight out of your area, pretty cool stuff nearby 😆 http://www.audiomn.org/
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Having owned several Klipsch including Heresy the Huge bottleneck is the Xover inside cheap no name parts ,just unscrew your woofer and shine a flashlight in there
or in back remove the screws in the newer ones there msybe 2 circuit boards
Very little room to work I put in mundorf supreme caps and mills resistors
night and day improvement , just to let others now ,
land put in good speaker term8naks ,not holdover bright brass.
Klipsch and even worse Maggi use low quality because no one complains
at least offer a SE option . I rebuilt these too .
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Thanks everybody.
@decooney TCTubes, awesome. Maybe my first step will be trying some NOS 12AT7, who knows?
Thanks again All
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@audioman58 "bottleneck is the Xover inside cheap no name parts".
@audioman58 Which Hersey version are you referring to?
Note: A friend with custom SET amps has owned Hersey 2, 3, and now the newest Hersey 4 version. He is telling me he likes the revised H4 model the best, and reportedly they have the upgraded drivers too, and the recently upgraded crossover too by the factory. I’ve not looked inside myself or nor do I know first hand. How about you... some more explaining to do, please. imo, this is important to be clear about H4s for owners of this newly developed Hersey version.
Have you actually opened up a pair of the new model Hersey model 4s (IV) (like OP @tonydennison has), and looked inside those too? If so, what did you replace on the crossovers, specifically?
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I agree with the OP and Huff’s and Robinson’s reviews overall. I am frequently taken aback by how fresh and lively and new all my supposedly-familiar music now sounds with the H4. As a bonus, they retain their dynamism at low volumes. And man do those things project; I have no need for "surround sound" for movies... helicopters sound overhead, and I (and my cats get confused by this sometimes) even hear things that sound like coming from behind me. I run ’em through a Marantz Ruby amp.
That said, I have enjoyed my trusty "linear sound" Epi 100s for decades, now upgraded w Human Speakers caps, and they are the reference standard for anything else that I hear. They still stand up against even much more expensive speakers, generally thanks to the near-perfect tweeter but the sweet tight bass is excellent as well. So, do the Heresy IV kick the Epi to the curb? No. But the Heresy provide me something fresh and different through which to re-explore old musical loves of all genres.
So, I’m still in search of "the one" that’ll do it all, one modern speaker that has both the rich seductive long-term magic that even works well off-axis combined with modern technological stable imaging, clarity, and speed. I just purchased Q Acoustics Concept 50, finally, and I haven’t set ’em up yet, but from everything I’ve read about ’em I believe they may be my goldilocks. I mean, supposedly the "tech" has advanced, but I’ve yet to hear a tweeter that I prefer over the Epi. But we’ll see... the Concepts are up against some stiff competition that I already have in my house.
So... that’s the background and why I agree not only with the OP but I also agree with @perkadin +1 "The H4 best fits someone who has another set of speakers to rotate in and wants something unique and different."
That sums it up nicely... all the other supposedly "high end" speakers that I auditioned, even much more expensive ones, didn’t impress me as being worth seven-to-ten thousand of dollars or even being that different nor much if at all superior (at least in the high end, and I can augment the lows with a modest sub) than my old Epi... But the H4 grabbed me by its freshness. I anticipate the Concept 50 as my primary main, the Epi in the office, and the H4 rotated in the primary role from time to time to provide that fresh perspective. Or maybe the H4 in the office, where I do spend a lot of time... Epi in the bedroom or on the porch, where I also spend a lot of time. I think I might have a winning combo. We’ll see. I haven’t fully executed yet.
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@tonydennison "@decooney TCTubes, awesome. Maybe my first step will be trying some NOS 12AT7, who knows?"
Yep. My local tech friend is a 50+ year retired tech for McIntosh warranty service, did Yamaha and Nakamichi service for years too, builds his own custom AudioNote Frankenstein kit amps, etc. He loaned me a massive collection of tubes once to try in 12xxx tubes, showed me some things about "tubes". While some use Brent Jesse and VintageTube service, this colleague regularly referred me to the couple who runs TC Tubes, he likes them, I’ve used them a few times - always had good luck there with them too. Check inventory there periodically, not always in stock.
Since they are local to you near MPLS, it’s always great to have local support. Yep, worth rolling a few. I’ve tried 25 different pairs of them, in vintage NOS. Still have a few pairs, not even sure why I keep them. Some nice new-production stuff now.
A little secret, ended up going with new-production PSVANE 12au7 and 12AT7s in my amps, and they’ve held their own against my very best 1965 Blackburn plant curve tracer matched Mullard tubes from Brent Jesse. Those are stored. I think you can get a little more out of your QS Linestage preamp first before diving any further into the deep end of the pool. Worth trying this first. Good Luck.
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@decooney
Speaking of matched....
I was looking on the TCTubes site and I was thinking, well, they're not matched so how big of a deal is it?
I have 3 matched KT88 gold lions, the forth broke years ago. What would happen if I rolled the dice on a single gold lion without knowing the matching and plugged it into a midmono?.......more curious than anything.
Or I may send one to Tube Depot to get a match and then sell the set of four on audiogon.
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Also something I did that I think may have improved the H4's, but most likely just in my head.
I removed the steel jumpers and made some out of bare copper solid core. if anyone hasn't thought of it. Then again, on the inside of the terminal door, the back of the terminals are connected with non copper quick connects, I was thinking of using some silver solder and doing away with the quick connects, but the other end of the wire is probably connected with the same quick connects, so I guess I haven't accomplished much, the hole just keeps dropping, :-)
T
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Check QS off the list after hearing what caps they use. Other components undoubably match in quality.
Jerry
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@tonydennison how did the other tube "break"?. Did it fail or get broken somehow physically? By chance do you have any idea how many hours are on the remaining three kt88 tubes? If you proceed - bring the other three KT88s with you to your tech and have them tested. Then decide from there if it’s worth buying a single replacement, biasing it up, and go. Or, if the three KT88s test bad, plan to buy a new quad set of tubes. As to be assessed with a tube test.
Mid Monos with Hersey H4s should sound also sound nice with EL34s too. My friend with the Hersey 4s just picked up a quad of PSVANE EL34s, liked them in a different amp though. Again, all of this leads back to type of sound you want...
The more we learn, maybe it would be beneficial to take the preamp and amps with you to the tech at the same time then - have it all checked out, tubes, bias all input/driver (inside bias adj) and output tubes (external). If all checks out good, a piece of mind. A capable tech should be able to breeze thorough this. If they are acting uncertain, go to another tech. Best of luck.
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I am using E34's now and it sounds great. The KT88 in question is an older set I haven't used in years. The bottom of the 4th tube broke off while rolling tubes. I probably used them for about 1.5 years.
Nothing needs to be checked out with my system, it is running optimally. We've been discussing the possibility of upgrading the caps.
Thanks
T
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Love my Heresy IIIs with a Schiit Freya using NOS GE 6SN7GTBs into either a Pass XA-25 or a Dennis Had SEP with KT77s usually (I switch between the two whenever I feel like it, and swap the tubes in the Had amp for fun here and there). The IIIs aren't particularly old and maybe I'll consider some sort of crossover upgrade eventually but, meh...they're great sounding as is. I prefer them (I mention this frequently) over the IVs after keeping a pair of IVs until I was sure they were "broken in."
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@tonydennison Nothing needs to be checked out with my system, it is running optimally. We’ve been discussing the possibility of upgrading the caps.
Gotcha. Then with EL34s in place now, stock caps in the amps and Linestage (which are already a bit less transparent, maybe by design) while you could try a few different input tubes (on the amps and linestage both), why not leave it as-is.
Most of the better caps we talked about so far might send you in the opposite direction, likely making it more transparent and more detailed. Maybe not what you want. Personally I would not want to go warmer than the stock caps, they are already a bit veiled over imo.
The stock caps are specially made for him, not bad. He likes them, yet we were referencing many who’ve replaced the caps and yielded more detail, tone, texture - - not necessarily "warmer".
Since you are running EL34s now, i.e. I don’t see it getting to be a lot "warmer" than it is now. EL34s are warmer than most KT88s out there.
There can be a downside too - Tube rolling and cap rolling can also lead to tail chasing too if there is not a clear plan of direction or why changes are being made.
Without hearing your setup with EL34s now, it’s anyone’s guess really. Since you say it’s running "optimally now", the other option is to let it be, sit back, listen, enjoy.
What else are you really trying to accomplish at this stage then?
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@tonydennison
Hi, sorry to be so late in responding to your questions. The quick answer is that I never upgraded anything in the Quicksilver linestage while I owned it, which was a long time ago. I was trying to say that from past experience with other components, I know that there are almost always improvements that can be made because after all, these things are built to a price point. I think that when I bought mine it was about $750.
All of the advice that @decooney has given you is far more valuable and specific that than anything that I could say, because he is much more knowledgeable that I am on the subject. All that I would say is that if you are satisfied, leave it alone. If you think that there are weaknesses, don’t be afraid to make changes. In what you wrote to me it sounded like you were a little frantic. Calm down. It’s supposed to be fun, and anything that is done can be undone.
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LOL Sorry @decooney ,
I didn’t notice that was you that said
"take the preamp and amps with you to the tech at the same time then - have it all checked out, tubes, bias all input/driver (inside bias adj) and output tubes (external)"
When I read it, it just struck me as if the poster (I didn’t register it was you) was one that didn’t read the thread and jumped in with doom and gloom and I had to get my equipment to the hospital as soon as possible because it was in serious trouble. I figured it was the Quicksilver disparager above (carlsbad).
1- it is sounding great at the moment.
2- I am going to price a cap job.
3- I am going to look into some NOS tubes
Sorry I blew up on you. :-)
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@roxy54
No, I'm cool. If I was having any actual issue with my sound......everybody would know it :-)
I can just be a hothead and I'm not the greatest at expressing in chat.
Audiophilia is an addiction and can make us irrational and testy. Look how I mistook Decooney for a troll and bit his head off. LOL
My system is sounding great at the moment, but whenever I make a considerable change I am surprised things that can still get better, so I'm willing to go for a cap job and you're right, I can always go back.
T
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@tonydennison no worries, questioning things a bit more to come up with a solid gameplan is better than making four upgrade moves that could have been done in (1) one step. My response about getting things "checked out", if you had a good local tech (nearby) is looking for last pieces of anything that might be low hanging fruit. I went through this same ordeal helping a local co-worker buddy on his QS Linestage, tubes, caps, ground/transformer issues and all. He thought his sounded good too. After sending the unit back to Mike at QS, getting a ground/transformer matter resolved (made quieter), and rolling a few good input and driver tubes helped. He still uses the preamp today. It’s "good enough" now, for him.
if you are not hearing any faint buzz noise, or hiss, putting your ear very close to the speakers, could be just fine. i.e. don’t fix a problem that does not exist. The last four I was aware of had a small faint buzz. The ground issue needed to be addressed, fyi. You might not have that issue at all, that’s great!
re: CAPS,
Like I was sharing with you, the stock caps that Mike Sanders has custom made for his amps and some preamps are not bad at all. Some people like them a lot. Again, It really depends on what you want more/less of in the sound. Also went through some of this alongside @hilde45 and his local tech buddy did the upgrade+ on his former QS Linestage for him. He’s moved on to a custom 6SN7 linestage preamp now.
I was thrown when you said you want it "warm’", or "warmer" maybe, and later you confirmed you are already running EL34s (now) with stock caps now. To the point, its does not get too much warmer than this with stock QS MidMono amps and a totally stock QS Linestage - is what I was trying to say. That’s all.
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@decooney
Weird. I thought I replied to this last comment.
When I first received this AT7 it had the noise problems you mention. I sent it back to mike and he fixed whatever it was.
Seeing this discussion make me wish I hadnt sold my fullfunction GS pre. I wish I had thought of upgrading it instead of selling. I miss it greatly.
T
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I came within minutes of calling HiFi Heaven for a return.
I bought a pair of Klipsch Heresy IV’s about 2 months ago - same price, fast shipping.
Got ‘em connected and placed correctly and…
they sounded awful. Thin. Harsh, remote, choked down soundstage like the effect of increasing eye relief from a rifle scope only auditory.
so I remembered to let them burn in.
24 hours of FM rock, another day of Pandora Jazz, sounded a little better, then I just let the radio play for a couple days, and *MAGIC*!
Warmer, fuller, wider-taller-deeper soundstage, less of the high-end shrillness (like a former female presidential wannabe) and no way I’d return them now.
I was replacing 30-plus year old Walsh 4 speakers (drivers about 7 yrs new) and, while I can’t say the auditory “image” is identical, as “holographic,” bass is just as good, midrange better, highs crisp, clean like icicles off your gutter (you’ll poke your ears out).
but auditory memories only last a few minutes anyway so by the time I was enamored of these speakers, reconnecting the Walsh 4’s would have taken some getting used to as well.
I did some frequency response tests down to 5 Hz which I could feel - and was pleasantly surprised. Low A (28.5 Hz) was loud enough to feel and hear without too much volume. This wasn’t expected as the Walsh 4’s could do 20 Hz but marginally and only with volume cranked up.
I’m sure the experience with the Heresy speakers will get better in my new place where I’ll have room to spread them out a little more and adjust the room acoustically.
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