@tonydennison "fasten your seatbelts, clearing for departure", lol.
Just did a quick "Tube Amp Repair" check on Yelp nearby, shows you've got 10 different guitar and different vintage outfits near you. Nice. The next phase can be fun. Enjoy!
My Heresy IV at 168 hours w/ a change of tubes.
Wow, what speakers.
We've all seen the gushing reviews from Steve Huff and others on youtube and the forums. It seems today everything is given 5 A+'s in the reviewisphere these days even though 90% of what is reviewed s not even adaquit. Reading and viewing these over the top reviews about The Heresy IV's, I was skeptical, but the ridiculous replies rebuking these reviews by people that obviously had neither experience nor interest in the Heresy IV's made me say, hmmmmmm.
After two years in consideration I pulled the trigger. I purchased the Heresey IV'sfrom HiFi Heaven in Greenbay for $2,500 with free one day shipping. I turn my system on and let it running for 5 days straight. The speakers sounded quite nice but it was missing a soul. I was disappointed and thinking of the possibility of returning them, then I read the review on Stereonet. The reviewer described what I was hearing and had a solution. He switched from a 200 watt amp which I believe ran KT88"s to an e34 amp. He described the relationship between the amp and the speakers as being a meeting of soulmates and spoiler, this is what happened to me.
I am a Quicksilver guy. Ive been sucking on the Quicksilver tit since something like 1995 or so.....I think. For the last 10 years Ive been running MidMono's with......KT88's even though they were built with e34's in mind. I needed the juice for the speakers Ive been using for years. These speakers were Boston Acoustic Lynnfield Project VR950's. The 950's are either ignored or pooh poohed by many, but they are some very detailed lively speakers. During my years with the Bostons I had several extended demo sessions with other much more expensive speakers and although they were better certainly, they were not change my life better, surely not worth the high costs associated with the upgrades, so I kept the Bostons. The Bostons can be quite deep soundstage and sideways they can through percussion into the next room. The I believe the caps started to go bad and the voices within the soundstage started to wander; this is why I started looking for replacements.
So, Im using MidMonos, a Quicksilver 12AT7 preamp, a PSAudio DirectStream Sr., and 2012 Mac Mini as a NaAS and a HSU Sub used very sparingly. Again with the 88"s the Heresy IV's sounded, not bad but sterile and many pieces sounded like the had been taken apart and rearranged in wonky fashion, very odd indeed. The bass was generally not mushy, but undecided. The midrange could easily get cluttered. There was nothing to celebrate and started to miss the Bostons.
Pieces I loved and knew intimately were disassembled. Things like Peo Alfonsi's Amada or Alma, or Pietropaoli's Le Notte, Likewise, etc. Virtually everything in DSD. Bass-line segments would all of a sudden be pushed into the background in mid phrase and a guitar would jump out front a third louder that it should have been. I tried to tame this with my sub and speaker position to no affect. It was very weird. Even if other pieces sounded fine, they still lacked soul. The kind of soul that makes you smile uncontrollably. The sound was, wide yes, but not enveloping, it was like looking at a photograph taped to the wall. A nice pho, but not reality. The depth was only to the wall....all around disappointing. It reminded me of what almost every positive reviewer had said, "the speak is Fun." and it was, but I thought, I don't want Fun, I want it to sound like it's the most important thing in my life.
I was in a quandary. I thought maybe it is just break-in. I sold a beloved VPI Classic to fund my Direct Stream Sr. which sounded like absolute crap until after like 800 hours running 24hours a day, maybe 1,000 hours, I can't remember and then all of a sudden KA....BOOOOOM !!! Magic. The final software update, I believe is Windom is unbelievably great. I think they started with this software and purposely lessened the initial dozen or so versions so they could upgrade the DS Sr. in increments for several years, but I am a cynic. Anyway, I figured the problem with the Heresy's was a burn-in issue so I would wait, but then again if I waited for the full 500 hours I would miss my return deadline........
Then I read the review by Rafael Todes
https://www.stereonet.com/reviews/klipsch-heresy-iv-floorstanding-loudspeaker-review
I'm sure I'd read it before, maybe many times, but what he said didn't gel with me until I experienced his issues myself.
"I also found that changing my power amplifiers lessened the effect. I substituted another valve amplifier in my collection – a restored Marantz 8B running EL34s, and dating from 1962. This was one of the finest amplifiers of this period and would have been a regular partner for Klipsch loudspeakers back in the day. What a combination! Those sweet little EL34 power valves brought more air to the proceedings than the KT88s of the VAC, and I heard an energy and life to the recording that jumped right out at me. I’ve never heard the Marantz sound so good; it was as if it had found its life partner. The rhythmic tension was excellent, as it delivered fast and accurate transients with toe-tapping drive."
So I looked for my original Quicksilver e34's which I hadn't seen in a decade and most likely never will. I couldn't find them so I ordered a set of e34L's from Tube Depot three days ago. They came today. I figured another 24 hours to burn these in then I would start making the decision to return the Heresy's or not.
I knew they were arriving today so I turned the system off allowing the 88's to cool. The tubes came and I plugged them in and started Alma by Alfonsi and.......
B.O.O.M. !!!! Immediately... Glorious beautiful gorgeous enveloping soulful sound covered me and every cubic micron of my room exploded in perfect sound. It was like getting punched in the face with joy and contentment. It was a revelation. Now I know what Steve Huff and Tode were on about.
Apparently it's not all recordings LOL, as Im writing this, Amada ended and Audirvana cued a FLAC of Al Demeola by random and it sounded like crap, so be warned. You can't have any weak links in the system. Keep in mind Amada was my reference.
What's all this mean?
It means these speakers are exactly what Steve Huff said they are. If you try them out and they don't change your life, there is something wrong with your system, not the speakers. If you're using SS, use a low watt tube rig and if you can, DSD.
T
Showing 13 responses by decooney
@tonydennison if you are truly in audio bliss, stop here. If not, read on. ...
Beyond your TubeDepot EL34s that just arrived for you - What I’m saying is a stock QS Linestage preamp is leaving a bit on the table that you’ve not begun to realize or experience yet with your H4s. I have have four friends with the QS LS, a local long term QS dealer, and after doing upgrades to the QS LS, tube changes, caps, and more inside it was an even greater improvement. Notably. Then, when they swapped in a really good 6SN7 preamp instead of the QS linestage, all of the sudden their H4s began to really sing. All preference of course. One other here [on this forum] is now reselling a majorly upgraded QS Linestage after hearing what a great 6SN7 pre can do with QS mono amplifiers. I also own upgraded QS amps and a 6SN7 triode preamp myself, fwiw. Imo, you’ve just begin to hear the new H4s is what I’m saying. If you take a few more steps, can be worth it. Best of Luck. |
I was speaking with a friend today with H4s and he’s tried all sorts of different amps and tubes, SET, Single Ended Pentode, Ultralinear, standard push-pull Pentode, various amps, custom boutique amp builds with 6L6, 807s, EL84, psvane EL34s recently. We’ve both tried various dacs too. The QS Mid-Monos can be nice... We re-confirmed a few times - having the right DAC, and upgraded linestage preamp w/the right tubes and caps, and decent cabling - all makes a difference with your Hersey H4s. imo, I’d be going after that QS Linestage next if I were you. Helped a few friends on upgrading theirs. Having the transformer/ground checked for noise. Better 12AT7s and caps in the QS pre/linestage helps more, along with quiet AC power. |
+1 @roxy54 Keeping in mind these units (preamps and amps) are built to a price point and the average person is absolutely good with any of these units in stock form. For the other 10% of us who want more, it can be achieved within reason, and for fairly low cost too. I recommend this (sometimes) IF someone is thinking of moving to another preamp, you can try this first before you do. It can pay off or help you stay put another couple of years. Again talking about the 10% seeking a difference. What I’ve learned about Mike and QS over the years is he’s not a fan of returned units for repairs. He sells components all over the world. My larger QS M120 amps came with proven ultra-reliable coupling caps used in guitar amps. They sounded kinda okay for some. Not to my ears really. The caps cost about $4.95/ea new, so go figure form there. I DID let them run for a year as-is, thinking the stop caps were chosen for sound too. Uh, not for me. Removed them, and installed some really good Mundorf Silver-Gold EVO non oilers. Same caps used in my Cary Audio amps. Super happy with the change and results. My QS amps took on a different signature, similar to what I've heard in other tube amps at 2-3x the price. A few friends and colleagues started doing the same with their preamps, QS Linestage, starting with much improved input/driver tubes. Some stop here, all good. Then realizing a nice difference, went for changing out coupling caps next (opinions/experiences vary here), caps can be a preference and varies by individuals, depending what you want "more" or "less" of from the sound after trying really good small tubes first. Whey ready, plan for a few other upgrades if you have a local tech to help, or ready to do it yourself. Can be a nice lift for ya, if interested.
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@tonydennison oh, "for what it’s worth". And you see YMMY "your mileage may may vary" :) . You’ll see these types of disclaimer escape phrases because many of us can hear things differently too. Different rooms, cables, speakers, all matters. As for 6SN7 Linestages and Preamps, it’s worth doing some self-research, starting with search, i.e. on Agon, searching for "6SN7 Linestage" subject line only; you will find many threads to look over in the past decade+. Many of us have our own preferences to these 6SN7 preamps too... Many manufacturers like QS went to smaller 12aU7 and 12AT7 tube based preamps 5-10 years ago due to scarcity of 6SN7 tubes, THEN more N7 and L7 new production tubes started showing back up past 3-5 years. So, some nice options here again with new production too. An upgraded preamp with 12ax7, 12au7, 12at7 can sound really good too, so don’t count that out if you want to get yours upgraded. This can be a really nice stepping stone too, or "good enough" :) https://forum.audiogon.com/search/index?utf8=✓&query=6sn7+linestage
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@tonydennison can you do some searching for a local tech near your first, and can DM private message from there. Caps are like ice cream flavors, depends on what you like more/less of with the sound. I’d recommend leaving the caps alone [for now] in the Mid Mono amps and start with focus on the Linestage first, Tubes +Caps. Also, it’s helpful to do these separately, one at a time [if you can] you’ll learn and appreciate it more incrementally, if you have someone local. It’s usually not overly expensive to have a good local tech do this for you, and test after - important to test that QS LS for noise too, isolate. Some had to fiddle with the ground and one of the transformers to quiet it down even more. CAN be really nice with a little care and feeding on next steps. Also a more affordable option. IF you share your local city here, i’m sure someone near you might have a tech or area to drive to. Best to find someone you can drive to up to a few hrs away vs. shipping damage. Most good techs have been-there-done that with these easy steps for them. Worth searching a good local tech first, take it from there, imo.
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@tonydennison Hey, you've got TC Tubes and others near you. Most shops can refer other techs too. Best to call weekdays, many old-schoolers still use phones, not all fans of email - or if you want to find a few of the special repair or builders. https://www.tctubes.com/contact-us.aspx (St Paul) www.TwoPinesStudioandRepair.com on Craigslist (Mason) Absolute Sound Labs absoundlabs.com http://www.tonetronamps.com/index.html If no-go on the upgrade decision, maybe one of these cats can scratch build a 6sN7 preamp for ya. Seeing quite a bit of tube, radio, repair places around you.
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In that same Agon MN Audio Society thread @hilde45 posted is a website, and all of these guys built their own preamps up there. Definitely a few audio members around you there. Maybe not tube guys - but these guys will know the locals and who has something else there to try, build, or buy. Worth a look here too. This was a few years back, but look at these guys all standing there super proud of their custom preamp builds, straight out of your area, pretty cool stuff nearby 😆 http://www.audiomn.org/ . |
@audioman58 Which Hersey version are you referring to? Note: A friend with custom SET amps has owned Hersey 2, 3, and now the newest Hersey 4 version. He is telling me he likes the revised H4 model the best, and reportedly they have the upgraded drivers too, and the recently upgraded crossover too by the factory. I’ve not looked inside myself or nor do I know first hand. How about you... some more explaining to do, please. imo, this is important to be clear about H4s for owners of this newly developed Hersey version. Have you actually opened up a pair of the new model Hersey model 4s (IV) (like OP @tonydennison has), and looked inside those too? If so, what did you replace on the crossovers, specifically? |
Yep. My local tech friend is a 50+ year retired tech for McIntosh warranty service, did Yamaha and Nakamichi service for years too, builds his own custom AudioNote Frankenstein kit amps, etc. He loaned me a massive collection of tubes once to try in 12xxx tubes, showed me some things about "tubes". While some use Brent Jesse and VintageTube service, this colleague regularly referred me to the couple who runs TC Tubes, he likes them, I’ve used them a few times - always had good luck there with them too. Check inventory there periodically, not always in stock. Since they are local to you near MPLS, it’s always great to have local support. Yep, worth rolling a few. I’ve tried 25 different pairs of them, in vintage NOS. Still have a few pairs, not even sure why I keep them. Some nice new-production stuff now. A little secret, ended up going with new-production PSVANE 12au7 and 12AT7s in my amps, and they’ve held their own against my very best 1965 Blackburn plant curve tracer matched Mullard tubes from Brent Jesse. Those are stored. I think you can get a little more out of your QS Linestage preamp first before diving any further into the deep end of the pool. Worth trying this first. Good Luck. |
@tonydennison how did the other tube "break"?. Did it fail or get broken somehow physically? By chance do you have any idea how many hours are on the remaining three kt88 tubes? If you proceed - bring the other three KT88s with you to your tech and have them tested. Then decide from there if it’s worth buying a single replacement, biasing it up, and go. Or, if the three KT88s test bad, plan to buy a new quad set of tubes. As to be assessed with a tube test. Mid Monos with Hersey H4s should sound also sound nice with EL34s too. My friend with the Hersey 4s just picked up a quad of PSVANE EL34s, liked them in a different amp though. Again, all of this leads back to type of sound you want... The more we learn, maybe it would be beneficial to take the preamp and amps with you to the tech at the same time then - have it all checked out, tubes, bias all input/driver (inside bias adj) and output tubes (external). If all checks out good, a piece of mind. A capable tech should be able to breeze thorough this. If they are acting uncertain, go to another tech. Best of luck. |
Gotcha. Then with EL34s in place now, stock caps in the amps and Linestage (which are already a bit less transparent, maybe by design) while you could try a few different input tubes (on the amps and linestage both), why not leave it as-is. Most of the better caps we talked about so far might send you in the opposite direction, likely making it more transparent and more detailed. Maybe not what you want. Personally I would not want to go warmer than the stock caps, they are already a bit veiled over imo. The stock caps are specially made for him, not bad. He likes them, yet we were referencing many who’ve replaced the caps and yielded more detail, tone, texture - - not necessarily "warmer". Since you are running EL34s now, i.e. I don’t see it getting to be a lot "warmer" than it is now. EL34s are warmer than most KT88s out there. There can be a downside too - Tube rolling and cap rolling can also lead to tail chasing too if there is not a clear plan of direction or why changes are being made. Without hearing your setup with EL34s now, it’s anyone’s guess really. Since you say it’s running "optimally now", the other option is to let it be, sit back, listen, enjoy. What else are you really trying to accomplish at this stage then?
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@tonydennison no worries, questioning things a bit more to come up with a solid gameplan is better than making four upgrade moves that could have been done in (1) one step. My response about getting things "checked out", if you had a good local tech (nearby) is looking for last pieces of anything that might be low hanging fruit. I went through this same ordeal helping a local co-worker buddy on his QS Linestage, tubes, caps, ground/transformer issues and all. He thought his sounded good too. After sending the unit back to Mike at QS, getting a ground/transformer matter resolved (made quieter), and rolling a few good input and driver tubes helped. He still uses the preamp today. It’s "good enough" now, for him. if you are not hearing any faint buzz noise, or hiss, putting your ear very close to the speakers, could be just fine. i.e. don’t fix a problem that does not exist. The last four I was aware of had a small faint buzz. The ground issue needed to be addressed, fyi. You might not have that issue at all, that’s great! re: CAPS, Like I was sharing with you, the stock caps that Mike Sanders has custom made for his amps and some preamps are not bad at all. Some people like them a lot. Again, It really depends on what you want more/less of in the sound. Also went through some of this alongside @hilde45 and his local tech buddy did the upgrade+ on his former QS Linestage for him. He’s moved on to a custom 6SN7 linestage preamp now. I was thrown when you said you want it "warm’", or "warmer" maybe, and later you confirmed you are already running EL34s (now) with stock caps now. To the point, its does not get too much warmer than this with stock QS MidMono amps and a totally stock QS Linestage - is what I was trying to say. That’s all. |
