My analog journey - time for a new phono stage or?

Not on your list but have you thought of the Ayre P 5xe phono preamp it's very neutral sounding. I've been using it with a VPI Scout and Soundsmith Carmen 2 with a Pass XP 10 and 250.8 and have no desire to change. It might match up very nice with your pre.

i like the Rhea and for much less the Musical Surroundings Nova III. The Rhea is really special and extremely flexible

Southerland and Manley would be my vote.

I have the P3 and I am happy with the Moon 110LP v2

If you can accept the aesthetics of the Parasound JC 3+, this unit is tough to beat(at $3k) if neutrality and frequency extension are desired attributes.

what’s wrong with the aesthetics of the JC 3+? Parasound is one of the few companies who cares about design

Most high-end audio components are hideous looking.

@johnto - The Ayre may well be a good fit. Problem is limited number of pre-owned units that come to market. Among the solid state units the Pass Labs XP-15 and Whest units seem to have a strong following and excellent reviews. Like the Ayre, they too have balanced outputs and are set up as dual mono units, which reviewers have suggested provides the lowest noise and highest S/N ratio.

@joey54 The Rhea is on the list. I may have some questions about it as I review the responses. My concern about the Musical Surroundings Nova III is that its sonic signature may be much like my Phenomena II+ - very quiet, good clarity, but how extended is the frequency response at the top and bottom (is the bass solid, deep and crisp and are the higher frequencies extended, natural sounding, not overly bright or etchy? Have you owned or auditioned it?

@grislybutter Why is the Manley on your short list? Have you owned or auditioned one? Which Sutherland model would you suggest within my budget, new or used? Why that one?

@dayglow The JC3+ is very flexible, with its variable loading, has balanced outs, a plus from my perspective. My reading, however, suggests a pre-owned Pass XP-15 will have a more natural sound, with equal extension at the bottom and top. Have you listened to or owned either? BTW, aesthetics are pretty much irrelevant to me, as its all about the sound, the reliability of the unit and how well it mates with my other components.

Thanks to all for your feedback. Looking for more specifics.

If I were going to go back before I built my present system, which is only one year ago, I would have sold my record collection and put money into the digital end. My analog sounds great to my ears. For most of my listening where I have the record, the analog delivers a bit more in every way, but I’ve put way more money into the analog. If my digital already sounded better than my analog and I wasn’t going for a $40K analog expenditure, I would just sell my analog equipment and records and invest in the digital. You are free to ignore my opinion and the fact that I still sometimes shoot film cameras makes me a bit of a hypocrite.

I heard the Manleys at my audio local store, and they were stunning. I also love the design (that you don't care about)

I read Southerland reviews, never heard them. 

Right at your budget is the Sutherland 20/20 with the PSU.

Works great for me with Hana ML at loading of 100, gain 64.

@vonhelmholtz Your admission of hypocrisy is refreshing and I did laugh. The reasons for maintaining an analog front end are three - I own about 300-400 LPs, some my Dad's dating back to the early days of LPs. Second, some of the things I have on LP are not available in digital format because of their age, but the performances are excellent, some of them classics. This is especially true of old classical recordings by artists long gone. Finally, I'm not expecting my analog rig to match the quality of my already quite good digital front end. I'm just looking to make what I view as a modest improvement, and based on my reading and limited auditioning a quality phono stage may provide that improvement. As the saying goes, "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." Not looking for perfect, just better, which based on hearing some gear at dealers, is reasonably possible.

@grislybutter Thx for the response and the tongue in cheek about my lack of concern regarding aesthetics. What about the Manley units was stunning? Can you be more specific about the sound signature? And what TT/cartridge was delivering the signal to the Manleys, if you can recall? Which model(s) of the Manleys did you hear? Chinook? Steelhead, which is way out of my budget? Thx in advance for your response.

I appreciate all the input, particularly from people who own or have auditioned the gear on my list. As you well know getting to dealers who carry this stuff is very difficult, much less getting units to try at home with my gear and in my listening room.

@sameyers1 so I have zero feelings/critique against audiophiles who don’t care about design. In fact you have probably more options since many great sounding brands are not about the design. My sense is that design is representative of culture and culture affects sound. For this reason, I am most comfortable with brands between boutique and mainstream - they have a mix of quality and design (and reliability/track record/customer service)
It’s kind of like going on a date, it could be the most charming and beautiful lady, if she is wearing a trash bag, you may be into it.

I heard the Chinook and the Jumbo Shrimp. Forgot the amp. Switching between a Rega P2 and a MoFi TT.

joey54 The Rhea is on the list. I may have some questions about it as I review the responses. My concern about the Musical Surroundings Nova III is that its sonic signature may be much like my Phenomena II+ - very quiet, good clarity, but how extended is the frequency response at the top and bottom (is the bass solid, deep and crisp and are the higher frequencies extended, natural sounding, not overly bright or etchy? Have you owned or auditioned it?
 

I have owned the Nova II and III and they are definitely much better sounding than you Phonomena. I have only used it with two cartridges, the Benz Glider and the AMG Teatro, both LOMC cartridges. Great bass and a very natural extension on top. I would never call either bright or etchy sounding. Can you get your dealer to loan you one? Listening in your system may be the only way to know what suits you. The Rhea is better of course but at 3 times the price it should be. I just recently sold my Nova as I upgraded to the internal phone card of my Aesthetix Mimas integrated amp. I have heard good things about the Allnic as well but I have never heard one. Good Luck!
 

After fairly recently replacing my Modwright  Line Stage  with a Herron Line Stage, and being very impressed with what the Herron did for my system, a Herron VTPH-2A phono pre came avialable (in my area of the country), so I picked it up, and

my vinyl listening is now an incredibly moving and pleasant thing I get to partake in.

Highly recommended. 

Regards,

Dan

One other thing, the Ayre is a great sounding phono stage with the right cartridge but has limited settings. If your cartridge is a goo Match you will be happ With that one as well.

Huge fan of Pass Labs Phono preamps. Owned the XP-15 and now use an XP-27.  Never listened to a Sumiko cartridge but I would also consider that a cartridge change might make a larger impact on sound quality than a phono pre.  I would recommend you read about the Lyra Delos cartridge. It is a champion at its price and has a nice extended upper frequency range. Based on your musical experience, I think you will appreciate what it can do for your vinyl.

Thanks for the all the helpful input.

@grislybutter Thx for confirming you auditioned a Chinook, and  for remembering TTs used.. As to design, whatever floats your boat. My gear is more industrial looking, although the Ayre Acoustics gear is clean and modern looking. But looks can be deceiving. Think about the gorgeous blond with nothing between her ears or the splashy Ferrari that ends up in the service bay on a too regular basis. Neither for a long term relationship. But if it looks great and does well all the better!

@joey54 Thanks for the input on the Nova III. It is very helpful. I will see if the dealer who sold me the Phonomena II+ will lend me a Nova III. The Rhea would be a pre-owned unit, but finding one to audition is not easy. Understand the Ayre's limited settings. Will check the manual and see if it mates well with my cart.

@islandmandan The Herron is highly regarded by Audiogoners, but tough to find, much less to audition. Congrats on finding one and glad you are enjoying it. Did you get to audition one first or sometime in the past?

@vonharaland Thanks for the information on the Sutherland 20/20. Will check it out.

@karl_desch I've thought about a cartridge upgrade and a friend recommended the Lyra Delos. But pairing a  roughly $2,000 cartridge with a $750 phono stage is a concern to me. I hear you, but hard to demo a cartridge. And you have a phono stage far superior to even what I'm considering. So how much of what you're hearing is the cart vs. the phono stage? Not easy to answer unless you could demo my cart on your system.

Again, thx to all for the helpful input.

tastes are very cultural. 25 years ago I would have thought that the Manley was cheap looking, because it was the style of my old country’s industrial switch boards.

Now it’s "retro" and pure nostalgia.

The same way, shiny silver would have appealed to me way back, now it just looks unimaginative

Sam?

After the incredible transformation the Herron line stage made on my sysem, when the phono stage appeared for sale, I got in touch with the owner, and he promised that it would be mine. My son lives near where he does, so they met up, my son paid him, and the weekend next, he brought it up to me.

Good to see him, my grandson, and my son's lovely wife. Had a great time visiting,  listening to some music, wrote him a check, and here I am with my two Herron preamps. It's the best money I ever spent on my system, bar none.

Regards,

Dan

@islandmandan Have you auditioned any of the other stages on my list? Curious to how the Herron stacks up to the Pass Labs, Whest, Manley Labs or any of the  others that are popular among Audiogoners. 

Stop reading, go hear some of this  gear on your list, IF at all possible w a TT like yours. To be brutally honest, your system strikes me as horse designed by committee…. Even tho i think highly of two important components you already own, me writing about them won’t help you much…..

I have heard all but the Allnic on your list, many times in many systems… ALL of them will sing w extension and meat on the bones w careful system matching and approaching it as a whole. I definitely wouldn’t run to more contact area on the stylus unless you've explored getting the most out of your current TT setup….

All cartridge are balanced, i wouldn’t fret the wires coming out of your TT, now i would definitely explore a balanced out phono stage into your Ayre. I didn’t look at your system page but get the Rega on a wall mount or better an HRS or similar isolation base designed for TT.

Frankly, while i love and own a Delos….i struggle to see that adding much IF you can’t get it into at least the upper half of your list AND after adding some mass to the  headshell….

iF ya end up San Diego way at Bruces, meet up for Java.

Best to you on your journey

Jim

The Herron is only about my trird or fourth phono stage. I went digital only after it became available. Around that time I really didn't have much knowledge regarding turntable and cartridge setup.

When I decided to get back into it about 12 years ago, I first bought a Project table, which I was not impressed with, then came a VPI Scout, which I liked better.

After a few years, I got really tired of tonearm wobble of  the VPI, and I was influenced by Art Dudley, and bought a Garrard 401 in England. I serviced the table, and had it powder coated to its black color it has now. I had a plinth made for it, which I subsequently made new Purpleheart front and top pieces for, and finished with twelve coats of high gloss tung oil. That was the hardest part!

I then bought a Dynavector 501 arm, rebuilt it, mounted it and it's been going strong for years now.

So I can't really tell you much regarding phono stages, although I do love what I have now.

As I said earlier, I haven't had many phono stages, but I used and enjoyed my Modwright SWP 9.0 Signature for many years.

All the best,

Dan

All of your listed possiblitles are solid. I have demoed the tubed models with the exception of Aesthetix. A earlier, used Zesto would also be a great contender in the price range.

This looks to be a good deal too. Whatever you pick it will be ready when you get the P10 level upgrade.

Icon Audio UK PS1 MKII MM/MC Tube Phono Pr... For Sale | Audiogon

@tomic601 If it were easy to audition these phono stages on a similar set up I would have done it. My goal is to settle on two or three and find a way to audition in home on my gear in my listening room. Auditioning at a dealer on different equipment tells one far less. I know I can audition a more costly, new Pass XP-17, the PS Audio Stellar and the Manley Chinook. Suspect I can also audition the Parasound JC3+ and Whest Two.two.  Just trying to narrow the field. I share your sense that a cartridge upgrade may come later, if even needed. BTW, the TT is well isolated.
 

You obviously like my Ayre preamp. What’s the other piece you like? Given your suggestion to explore the balanced out approach into the preamp I think that would rule out the tube stages on my list. I would like, however, to audition at least one of them to see if a tube stage provides more meat on the bones while retaining detail and extension at the top and bottom. Do you have a preference among the tube stages on my list?

As to designed by committee, it’s more a case of accumulated over time. Thx for the best wishes and the offer of meeting for java if I’m in lovely San Diego. 

@tablejockey Thx for the Zesto and Icon suggestions. 

I gravitate to gear created by restless unsatisfied superb engineers with ears…. Charlie at Ayre is one, very much missed. Your Ariel same story but the really long speaker wires are your 2 lane bottleneck thru LA. …. just a hunch after doing this since 1978…. 

You could test this for not much $, not to convince you to change, just for you to discern what need be overcome…

Another for the list is Jim White, his stuff is balanced, almost impossible to get it to sound bad….

If you looked at my systems pages, you would find his gear along w Charlie, Keith, maybe even a Manley Tubes Rule…..java mug.

You might add the Hagerman to your list…… Rogue, Quicksilver , 

Best to you !

Zest for Zesto, and for clarity Jim White = Aesthetix and Keith = Herron

Get a used ARC, or new, if you have the wherewithal.  Will take any cartridge and sounds fantastic.  Mine is a Reference 2 SE and I wouldn’t be without it.  Have it paired with a Lyra Delos.  

Goldnote PS10+PSU10 no restrictions on dynamic range in my system, dead quiet, looks really cool (IMO).

All ARC gear is interesting to me though, just by reputation.   

even a older, well cared for fresh tubes ARC should be a consideration as well, Warren sort of fits the mold. The mentioned Ref Phono 2se will start around $5K plus, quite a lovely bit of kit…… Been a few months since i heard one….. ;-)

Bought the Parasound JC-3 +.....kept it 1 week and sent it back. Got the PS Audio Stellar into my system w/ Hana MC and Ortofon Blue MM carts. Day and night difference. Vinyl now sounds more live and musical with clarity that I didn't think was possible for $2500. Totally happy.

JC

@sameyers1 I work with RADA hit me up, if you want to chat about an opportunity ( caveat I am their importer )

Also, some interesting buzz on the Konus phono preamps...just to add even more to your list to research :)

OP- While the Ayre K-5xe is a great preamp (I used to own the K-5xeMP), the K-1xe is much better- more 3 dimensional images that are more clearly defined, and better frequency extension among other attributes.  I have not heard the most recent 5 series preamps.  Btw, I also use and am very happy with the P-5xe phono pre which has enough gain for my LOMC cartridge.

OP - You might temporarily test your isolation theory by moving the TT down a shelf….that sort of thing is free… Best to you.

Jim

I am struggling to identify a Phonostage as being the fundamental cause of the being able to notice a restriction to the Soundstage and Upper/Lower Frequencies.

The imagery is reported as a valuable trait, a Pencil Cabinet Speaker from a commercial design with a 20+year history will be all about the Imagery and Separation between the Speakers, a substantial Power Amp might get away with creating the impression of a expansion and leave the Speakers being perceived as expansive in their presentation.

A Bass Colour and Cabinet Reflection can easily subdue the upper frequencies, reigning these in and robbing the upper mid's and highs of being prominent as a projection.

I avoid overwhelming Bass for these, a clean tight fast decay Bass, is where I find a most desirable balance across all frequencies. If a little richness is desired hear after, there are simple ways to inject a little extra low end propping up. 

Speaker Designs have moved on, as Drivers have become available to work much better with a Pencil Cabinet design, and the Cabinet Design is much more aligned to controlling resonances and are efficient at cancelling the transfer of resonance.

I do think there is a issue with your Speakers, I would look to keep the Phon' for a longer period and learn morew about its inherent properties for developing the sent signal.

I would see if it is possible to slot your Phon' into other systems, friends, forum members, retailer, and see what is the impression being picked up on when in use.

There might be a surprise, the system owner might suggest your own Phon' is a valuable addition to their system. It won't be the first time this has happened.

A Friend has a selection of Cabinet Speakers, occasionally there is a different pair in use in their quite familiar system, it is quite unreal how a well respected Pencil Floor Stander can sound quite anaemic and shut in, in comparison to a Stand Mount Speaker, which bring a realness of the performance into the room. Both a CD Source and Vinyl Source are able to show differences on how they effect the Speaker in use.

This isn't HiFi in the regular sense either, this is more like mixing things up a little, as the Speakers and Sources are available. The real HiFi experience is to happen when the ESL Speakers are taking pride of place. 

I am struggling to identify a Phonostage as being the fundamental cause of the being able to notice a restriction to the Soundstage and Upper/Lower Frequencies.

The imagery is reported as a valuable trait, a Pencil Cabinet Speaker from a commercial design with a 20+year history will be all about the Imagery and Separation between the Speakers, a substantial Power Amp might get away with creating the impression of a expansion and leave the Speakers being perceived as expansive in their presentation.

A Bass Colour and Cabinet Reflection can easily subdue the upper frequencies, reigning these in and robbing the upper mid's and highs of being prominent as a projection.

I avoid overwhelming Bass for these, a clean tight fast decay Bass, is where I find a most desirable balance across all frequencies. If a little richness is desired hear after, there are simple ways to inject a little extra low end propping up. 

Speaker Designs have moved on, as Drivers have become available to work much better with a Pencil Cabinet design, and the Cabinet Design is much more aligned to controlling resonances and are efficient at cancelling the transfer of resonance.

I do think there is a issue with your Speakers, I would look to keep the Phon' for a longer period and learn morew about its inherent properties for developing the sent signal.

I would see if it is possible to slot your Phon' into other systems, friends, forum members, retailer, and see what is the impression being picked up on when in use.

There might be a surprise, the system owner might suggest your own Phon' is a valuable addition to their system. It won't be the first time this has happened.

A Friend has a selection of Cabinet Speakers, occasionally there is a different pair in use in their quite familiar system, it is quite unreal how a well respected Pencil Floor Stander can sound quite anaemic and shut in, in comparison to a Stand Mount Speaker, which bring a realness of the performance into the room. Both a CD Source and Vinyl Source are able to show differences on how they effect the Speaker in use.

This isn't HiFi in the regular sense either, this is more like mixing things up a little, as the Speakers and Sources are available. The real HiFi experience is to happen when the ESL Speakers are taking pride of place. 

Ok, all - thanks for the input, observations, recommendations, etc. Now I have even more options to consider, but I have begun narrowing them down. I would appreciate continuing to hear from those who own any of the phono stages on my initial short list or others recommended in the posts to date, particularly if they've auditioned more than one of those.

Also, while I'm sure with the best of intentions, suggestions involving gear that is way over my budget are not particularly helpful. I am, however, willing to purchase preowned and am checking prices of those pieces in the resale market.

Will try to winnow it down to a maximum of three to audition, most preferably at home with my gear in my listening room. Again, your comments are appreciated. 

grislybutter

... it was just fellow San Diegan small-talk.

You know you're on the Internet, right?

grislybutter

Once you get online, post, log in, it's not me who exposes you. You have done it by just being here. 

What you did is doxxing. I'm asking you to please stop.

Let's make this clear, @grislybutter, with a "yes" or "no" question.

You are telling me that you feel free to post personal information about other users on this site?

Yes?

or

No?

there is fantastic community of sharing audiophiles in San Diego…. Box the compass we do…. of course Audiogon , paranoid Audiogon gets in the way…. B Jan Montana / Copper Magazine….. might get you in touch, chance to hear more gear, exchanging views without a keyboard, etc…. some serious local DIY skills along w design / fab / commercial access…. 

Best to all that love music

I would love to join @tomic601  if there are any events

reach out to Jan