Musetec (LKS) MH-DA005 DAC
Agreed +1 Much more sonic /sound quality potential to be realized based on description of current set up. Charles |
@lordmelton Did you try the LKS 100 without the linear power supply? I'm thinking of trying it, but thought I could hedge my bets by not buying the lps unless I heard some benefit with the lks 100 on a cheap switching power supply first. |
Evaluation of audio electronics and cables by listening is not the best way. It’s the only way. Years ago I was a big fan of Supra cables. They were/are available in bulk at very reasonable prices in the US and I made up cables using better connectors than Supra provides. I have used two different loudspeaker cables from Supra, interconnect, power and USB. Now I use only their power cables, but have replaced the Supra cable going to my amplifier. The improvement was easy to hear. In all other applications Supra cable was easily outperformed by not very expensive alternatives. I love to experiment with cables, and I have read a lot about them. I have never before read of someone buying cable by spec. I have, though, bought cable by construction and materials. Live and learn! You are not getting close to what your DACs can do IMO by running your USB cable (esp. Supra) directly from your computer to your DACs, unless, perhaps, there is something very special about your computer. Also, by what you’ve written I guess you are aware of the dynamics you lose with the DACs’ volume control. |
I feel great with the supra cable, I have been using it for a year and I chose it because it is the only one with certification and specific technical data. I don't use any preamplifier as I want to directly amplify the output signal from the DAC (without artifacts created by other devices, which, even if not measurable there are ...), I understand that the digital volume is not the maximum but I am aware of this . upstream of the DAC I have a PC with ROON and I use ASIO |
@car123 All I can say is I'm getting the best music I've ever heard in my system using the LKS 100. Maybe it has something to do with system matching because both the 005 and 100 are LKS products and we are talking just milliamps mA for the I2s connections. No cable conductor swaps required either. The RJ45 came out best for me and if you read one of my earlier posts using WW Starlight was just impossible, but after using it as an Ethernet cable it broke-in and now it's fantastic as my I2s, getting Platinum soon. Guess it was due to the very low current on I2s. The LKS is only $200 but I would suggest a really good 5vdc power supply but you can test it out with a phone charger first.
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Well, I love my 005. And my SIT-3, my joule LA 300, my benz ebony LP-s, my steelhead and my joule VZN 80,all of which likely measure poorly but sound divine. My ears are more important than anyone's test bench. I returned the singxer today. After a lot of listening and AB ing the singxer versus straight USB versus the sonore ultradigital, I confirmed that my system with the singxer was somewhat strident, glarey, harsh, and not toe tapping. Hence, back it went. I am still preferring the sonore with HDMI to straight usb by a fair margin. But, I can't really get over that the little box costs $500; maybe I'd prefer the musetec usb-100, which I have not yet ordered. My 30 day sonore return window is rapidly closing. I haven't decided what I'm going to do, besides continuing to listen to and enjoy music. |
Well maybe engineering the hump away is what gives Weiss their colored house sound and virtually every Weiss DAC review will mention how Weiss compartmentalizes the music, but I guess you’ve got that covered because every DAC sounds the same regardless. BTW I’ve auditioned every Weiss DAC from 301 to Medea |
@yage All very well and good but what happens if a poorly measuring DAC with off the charts jitter and every other negative factor performs with the voice of angels in blind listening tests? Would ASR then be recognized as the clown factory that it is? I prefer to take my advice from discussions on forums from people I can trust. Thanks to melm, dbb and sns I took a chance on the 005 and it's paid off big time. The 005 is unique like most Chinese DACs because you can't demo them, but you can return them if you don't like them. Most of my other equipment I auditioned over periods of time at my dealer's studio. Having a great dealer is very important. Someone who can recommend and even give you gear on loan. Page 20 & 21 of ASR is going completely against what you profess. No room for anything but tests. The tragedy is they are missing such beauty and refinement, but I guess their beauty lays in graphs and double blind tests. Are any of ASR actually married? Their chicks must be right munters. |
@curiousjim Silver plating wires and transformer windings helps to mitigate "Skin Effect" where the current tends to travel around the surface of the wire. Whether or not silver plating is better than a solid silver transformer is better is questionable, but it's a lot cheaper. WireWorld make a copper cable, a silver plated and solid silver cable. |
This is completely missing the point. If something measures poorly but has no audible problems, then maybe the problem is below the threshold of audibility. In other words, even though the Musetec has a jitter-prone digital interface, you can't detect it via listening.
This is why scientists and engineers measure. They attempt to correlate observable, quantifiable data with perception. This is the fundamental misunderstanding I see in audio today on this particular issue - the blind listening tests and the measurements are performed so we know what is an audible phenomena. If the phenomena happens to be a problem, then we can find ways to fix it to advance the state of the art.
This is why blind listening tests are important. It removes the bias that sighted listening introduces and makes our judgments about changes in sound quality more consistent and reliable.
Now that we have repeatable, verifiable measurements and reliable observations from blind listening, we can start to make connections between the two. We can understand how changes in frequency response affect subjective appraisals of sound quality. We can quantify at what level of distortion we can call an amp audibly 'transparent'.
This is not to say that measurements are the be all, end all. But in my experience, using measurements makes it much, much easier to obtain the sound that you want. It gives you a target to shoot for instead of wandering around in the dark. It helps you make better decisions about what gear to buy and how to use it instead of being whipsawed by the flavor of the month or contradictory audiophile 'wisdom'.
In any case, apologies for further derailing this thread. I highly encourage any audiophile halfway interested in learning more to visit the following:
Audio Check - Audio Tests - Blind Tests Let's Listen to Jitter Effects Objective Loudspeaker Measurements to Predict Subjective Preferences? |
@teo_audio Well said, I too am trying to get past arguing on certain threads here. If the work futility comes to mind, I need to stay away. If one knows changing minds isn't possible what's the point. While its nice to hear from others with similar open mindedness and curiosity, we already know where most stand here.
Also, imagination is a wonderful thing, demeaning it not only shame for the arts, but also science. I attended school of Literature, Science and the Arts, imagination integral to all, curiosity and imagination form the genesis of knowledge and progress. |
I’ve never had a need for measurements or for blind testing to figure out if a component should stay. Does it sound like live, unamplified, music in real space, and more so than what it replaces? That’s all I want to know. I suspect that you won’t need a "blind test" to know what you have when you turn on the Musetec with a bit of warm-up, even though not really broken in. But I worry about the Supra USB cable. It is one of the few that I have tried and it is really opaque. When I try the Supra I have to raise the volume considerably to hear low level stuff. A low cost cable I have recommended is AudioQuest Pearl. It’s a simple solid core copper. You also won’t need a blind test to know it’s better. It’s not the best cable I’ve used but it’s pretty good and somewhere near the Supra price category, perhaps even less. However if you’ve been using the Supra for a while I suppose you should leave it on so that the difference will be the DACs and not the cable. You haven’t, though, told us what’s at the other end of your USB cable. Also, no preamplifier? Are you using digital volume on your DACs? |
Back in the 70’s, I studied to be an electrical engineer, specializing in radio and television, but for the life of me I have no idea what silver coating copper wire has anything to do with transformers. So @melm , I’ve been lost since the beginning of this thread. I was hoping it would have come up by now so I wouldn’t have to embarrass myself by asking.☹️ |
Why those that measure only and place measurement above all else, either hate or do not understand. Literally do not understand. as in -incapable- of understanding. Permanent state of mind. From birth to death. I don’t like it at all (surely there must be some way?), but that is the way it is. ’fear of art’ might be a good descriptor. Fear of those who are beyond them. who see anything outside of some dogmatic rigor as a direct threat to their self and sense of the world. they don’t do theory, they don’t do exploration, they only ’do adventure’ by reading about ’new realities’. they can fill out fields doing all the gut and ditch digging work....yes...and do the equivalent of scientific crossword puzzles... but pure invention? Very much -NOT. Understanding this might be a good idea. So one can step by such people, to circumvent their hairy and hoary perceptual bull in a china shop. As we move through the levels of intellect possible in such groups, as we spiral downward in those tiers or levels... we arrive, when we reach the bottom - at pure projected dogmatic safety of the self. the more imagination required... the less likely they’ll ever trust it, until it (the given imaginative thing) becomes a societal/cultural norm in their primary learning cycle as a child. Once the given prior imaginative thing has a formed rigid structure then they can navigate it. That big difference between spirituality and formalized rigid dogmatic religion. ’Free form(?) - nothing’, is their motto. It does not mean they don’t live satisfying lives, but that they simply don’t understand,and cannot understand and never will understand imagination or creation. If you find them here, on this forum (or any other forum), DO NOT ENGAGE WITH THEM. Other than ostracizing them entirely from your conversations. And, even in that they will still intrude and attempt to formalize the conversation around you being wrong as they don’t understand discovery or imagination, or pure scientific rigor in exploration. I mean this, literally. Literally. There are degrees of agreeableness and understanding as we go through the various levels of intelligence and types but there is a facet or two of fundamental rigidity, in all of us, to some degree. You’ll now the difficult type when you encounter them on this forum. Their repeated lambasting and attacks will amply show their lack of imagination and inability to invent, in this world. It will be plain for all to see, in their projections in dogma in science. You (if a creative type) are broken, you MUST be fixed, and you must not be allowed to continue as you represent a fundamental challenge to their mindset that they cannot wrap their minds around. This set of paragraphs of mine, is not conjecture, it is not rabidly anti-human, it is not designed to cause grief it is meant to inform people of a fundamental in human psychological types. If you try to include them..and work with them, whole holding the reality you know to be more full and real, where all the work is done, the part that is inclusive of the unknowns... all you’ll do ...is get an act of a grinding down upon you that will be as relentless as their life force itself. You know what I’m talking about, you see it all day on on this forum. Since audio is NOT a completely fleshed out dogmatic system where all is known in all it’s possibilities in connectivity...we, in audio, get into frictive and difficult states by allowing non-creative conservative types into our conversations in an attempt to help them understand the art of exploring in audio. Again, they will NEVER understand... they are simply not wired for it.... and no amount of work in this area will improve this situation. How can they not see? we say to ourselves.. well..the reality is that we are not them and these two (fundamental mental types) cannot and will not ever meet. for the longest time, ie the past 40 years of my life I’ve tired to do the opposite and thought the opposite, but no amount of work on a conservative mind type will ever take it there, as their life force and mental constitution will simply not allow for it. Changing that which you hold dear as your breath itself, in yourself, regarding openness and creativity.... means you’ll die if you don’t create, if you don’t imagine, if you don’t ponder. In their mind the near opposite is the life force, their force of being. The strength and intensity of your desire to help them understand... is only exceeded by their life force’s need and fundamental state or requiring that you be ground down,as you appear to be a fitful broken anomaly of zany craziness and infidelity to reality. A falsifier of reality, a broker of lies and fantastical imagination of things that are not real. I know that I’ll have to fight myself when they trigger a jaw drop from me with their zany and utterly bizarre connection to measurement a the arbiter of truth... in a science who’s parameters are not fully known, as they think they know it all, already. Just one of their authoritative inanities that they project upon all others as laws that must be followed. All as they run around and kill the source of the ground they walk on. Insanity and blindness at it’s finest. |
my dear, my comments are not aimed at you. these are general considerations that I find myself expressing motivated by the war in progress between this forum (which I find democratic as everyone expresses their opinion freely) and the ASR forum (completely undemocratic, as they eliminate uncomfortable posts and ban users who ask uncomfortable questions). I mainly address the alleged witnesses of science and the "metaphysicians" of sound. remove the blinders, be more open to knowledge, make peace not war |
This has not been my observation at all. The vast majority of people I encounter who rely on subjective listening do in fact have a healthy respect for measurements. You need them as a baseline/reference point to determine audio component compatibility and matching. There is no doubt in my mind that test bench analysis is quite useful and valued. The distinction I believe is that many have come to acknowledge that these measurements won't determine/confirm the sound quality of an audio component. I really do not understand why this is even a point of contention. How would one have any clue that they'd enjoy their music played via a product if they have not listened to it? So yes, test measurements unquestionably play an important role. They just are no reasonable substitute for critical listening evaluations. Charles |
@sns agreed it is indeed a small box with mostly poor sounding gear although i will admit the D90SE sounds good just a little sterile. @yyzsantabarbara ya the 005 so far in my system is a big winner on par with my Terminator II albeit with a different flavor.
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still here debating the goodness of the measurements? poor people!!! |
Serial # MS50097, purchased 11/20.
Based on my understanding of measurement crowd, its not that they don't listen, rather its best to rely on measurements vs listening. While some of them may admit to limits of measurements, still beats human senses and our individual perceptions of those senses. Human biases of all kinds enter the equation for them, can never be overcome by training, experience, etc. Measurements always retain their superiority over listening, inconclusive results from blind testing prove this superiority. This will never change, written in stone, really is no point in arguing the point in this thread or any thread, total futility.
There is some hope though, periodically, I observe a former measurement adherent joining the dark side after having heard a component or components that resolve to the point where they hear formerly unheard sound qualities like texture, perhaps even color. At this point they now come to the understanding there are sound qualities measurements fail to account for. So, yes, I'd agree at least some of the measurement cohort has not heard extremely revealing systems. Based on the mostly relatively inexpensive components tested over there I believe this true. Now, they occasionally test more expensive components, which test middle of pack, what's the point of listening or purchasing when its far more costly than equally or better measuring equipment. The thing is I'm sure Amir has heard these much more costly components, and likely entire systems. Can he not hear differences with the much more costly components and systems? Or is it he can't or won't admit to it? You have to realize their entire argument can't take a relatively middle of pack or poorer measuring component beating out best measuring components, this would be admitting listening more valid than measuring. And then take an entire system of such components where these gains may be exponential. For those of us relying on listening, correlations or non-correlations between measurements and listening isn't surprising, upsetting, nor does it INVALIDATE measurements. Measurements illuminate the known knowns, don't account for the known unknowns. The difference is we hear the known unknowns, they either don't or won't admit to it.
And I do get lordmelton's reiteration of necessity of burn in with 005. Yes, it's sound quality changes over burn in, extremely likely measurements won't change but sound quality does. Measurement cohort can't admit to burn in changing sound since it challenges entire measurement argument. Seems to me measurement cohort has themselves in small little box, everything has to conform to this tiny little box, can't allow or explain outliers or unexplained phenomenon. |
I imagine Musetec are reviewing their options at the moment, maybe they will do their own tests. ASR is not a licensed testing agency and in the real world their comments hold no credence. As was said earlier if a DAC with poor test results sounded good then that's ASR completely discredited. I believe @sns was one of the first buyers so we could compare his serial number with someone who has bought this month. We'd have a very good indication of customer satisfaction. There are zero complaints on the internet about the 005. Every one of those sales was trouble free and the customers happy with their purchase. Bar two or three who preferred something else IIRC. All on ASR have been brainwashed into believing that only measurements matter and ALL cables, regardless of price sound the same. Now even those with a fraction of a brain cell can agree that's not correct, unless you have genuine hearing difficulties. ASR is flawed and a fraud. Yes different performance results were published by Musetec but ASR is not a legal entity, it's a hobbyists site for the delusional that want to call themselves scientists and engineers and doctors. So if you want a 005 it needs 6-8 weeks to break in, whether you believe in that or not.
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Is it possible to ask the manufacturer to correct what is reported on the technical specifications or to refute the ASR tests? Is it possible to explain to the followers of ASR that what is not measurable at the moment does not necessarily exist? they seem to me to be two essential questions, answering which would put an end to the diatribe |
To change the subject. An interesting thing happened today. I brought back my CODA 07x preamp to my office and removed my Benchmark LA4 preamp from the office. I learned that the CODA 07x maybe useful with my, soon to be delivered, RAAL VM-1a headphone amp (it has only 1 input). So, in it went to the office system. I had a ROON software update done today before the gear changes, I was listening with my Musetec 005 DAC after the update and not the Benchmark DAC3B. Both DACs were working flawlessly in the past with either one of my preamps. Today the DAC3B had a lot of distortion on the music, this was easy to hear with ADELE 21 stream from my FLAC version on my hard drive. On the Musetec 005 I had no distortion, just perfect sound. I did some investigation (changing XLR’s, preamps, USB cables) and narrowed it down to the DAC3B now requiring the HEADROOM MANAGEMENT feature enabled in ROON. I found that values less than -3 on the HEADROOM ADJUSTMENT fixed the distortion I was hearing. I am testing all of this on my RAAL SR1a headphone which are uber revealing. Interesting aspect of this issue is that the Musetec 005 did not have the distortion after the ROON update and the DAC3B did not need the -3 or less adjustment prior to the software update. Now that this is all fixed, I am doing A | B comparisons of the 2 DACs with 2 streams from 2 OpticalRendu’s. It is so easy to hear the differences in these 2 DACs. The Musetec is such a clear winner with the RAAL SR1a. When I get my tube RAAL VM-1a amp I am not sure if the Musetec 005 will be the winner. Ok, back to whatever we were discussing. (9) Help explain intersample overs, please? | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum |
I suspect that part of why the guys on the ASR forum excoriate guys like me with "too much money and not enough brains" is that they don't have the money to buy higher end gear. This might sound unduly snobby but IME, system resolution generally gets better as you spend more on gear. A truly high end system very noticeably reveals component shortcomings. They probably know that, but are too embarrassed and envious to admit it. |
For many, listening is the most effective way to find out if it sounds good or not, for some, measurements are the sole criteria, while some lie in the category of doing a bit of both. Nothing wrong with any of the approaches as long as you enjoy the hobby. Horses for courses.... |
The issue with not listening is it appears as if one has an agenda, especially since this dac has received a fair amount of positive reviews. Since all these positive reviews based on subjective listening, not listening fails to even acknowledge what we find so compelling.
I'd also think it should be of interest for measurement crowd to understand how measurements correlate to sound qualities. Do they correlate in every single component that's ever been under review? Or does measurement crowd not want to admit they may not always correlate. For any one of them to admit 005 produced quality sound would be admitting measurements don't always correlate. |
I agree that listening is important. For example, Revel Speakers uses extensive measurements in their product development but only release products when they come out on top of double blind listening tests against the competition. Personally, I want gear that sounds good *and* is well engineered. Call me a perfectionist if you will. This is the purpose of having equipment measured. I’d like to know whether I’m being sold a bill of goods or buying state of the art.
Frankly, I don’t understand the animosity towards @toddk31. The way I see it, he did the community a favor by purchasing a retail unit and sending it in for measurements. What might a publication receive? A special ’review sample’ that may not be indicative of the true performance you’re getting. The same goes for ASR / Amir. He measures gear that is often overlooked by the big publications and he makes all of this data available free of charge. Sure, the members of his forum can be downright nasty, but no more so than how someone here would react to an ’objectivist’ stance.
Now, I think the bigger question should be: after reading about how great this DAC sounds, the measurements show significant amounts of jitter on the digital interfaces (AES / USB). I bet none of those reviews ever mentioned anything about the effects of said jitter on the DAC's performance. Why is it that the knee-jerk reaction to less than stellar measurements is to simply throw out this tenet of audiophile wisdom? |
I would agree that misleading or exaggerated marketing by companies is not desirable. I suspect that given a choice, most reasoned audiophiles/music lovers place far more priority on how a given audio product actually sounds since this is ostensibly why it was purchased in the first place. Sonic performance > marketing hype. Charles |
I bet the list would be extremely large. If you want to enjoy music, the key is to audition in your home, in your listening environment and with your set of gears and ears. There is no substitute, no matter what. |
This was my thought process as well. I realize that Todd can do what ever he chooses to do. I understand that. I was just genuinely curious as to why on earth one would not simply "listen" to an audio component playing music rather than the obsession with getting the DAC measured. that's all. Best wishes to Todd. Charles |
Dbb. Since the dac was on the other side of the country auditioning dac presented some logistical issues that I nor Jason wanted to deal with. At that point we all decided that returning the dac to us based seller was the easiest path for everyone’s satisfaction. Would I have liked to have listened to it in my system? Yes I would have but after all the commotion we all felt this was the best path. We were all ready to put an end to the contentious chatter. Please everyone enjoy what they have. I do. |
We can go around and around chasing our tails but to be honest how many car and bike manufacturers publish HP at the crank and not the rear wheel/s. Musetec couldn't give a monkey's what ASR thinks he's got 1.5 billion punters on his doorstep, who will listen. Truly if you haven't heard this DAC fully broken in in a decent system you are really missing out. My system isn't a cheapo but I put it in a $500k system to make sure it could run with the big boys and it did. I'm really, really enjoying the I2s RJ45 input, best music I've ever heard. |
@Toddk31 I think of this audio hobby as a means to enjoy music. It is hard for me to relate to the objectivism school. I don’t understand why you didn’t listen to it. Do you feel it possible that you are biased by measurements? I’m not belittling or criticizing your aproach. It is just something I cannot relate to. It’s sort of like collecting cars and not driving them. I respect your approach but, again, I just can’t understand. |
why has none of those who consider themselves scientists ever plugged one of their DACs into an audio system of the highest level (costing more than 2 million euros)? it's the only way to "feel" the differences from one device to another. |
As always a reasoned post by melm. I for one have learned a valuable lesson. I do not feel bad for having given the dac to asr for review, Jason had no problem with sending to asr. I was not trying to pull a fast one and ambush musetec, Jason and I both assumed it would pass with flying colors. Oops it had some issues, ones I’m sure that will be addressed. If I ever do this again I would remain anonymous. I,ve been into audio for over 40 years and have bought owned and sold enough gear to last 2 lifetimes. It’s just stereo equipment people. I’m not a shill for anyone. I for the life of me can’t figure some peoples reaction to the review. I’m glad Jason and jinbo were stand up guys and I would not hesitate to deal with him again. By the way Lordmelton I really liked my holo audio spring kte. I traded it in for the 005 and kept the 004 .I think Jason is gonna send it back to me. So back to were I started from. I would love to have someone send their 005 off to be tasted by someone else. That would make for some interesting reading, here and at asr. Play some good music people and relax. |
Any OP knows that after launching a thread into the air here it's impossible to account for what direction it may take. Nevertheless, as this extensive thread is now one year old, permit this OP a few words. The designer/manufacturer of this DAC has produced several DACs over the past 10 years or so. They have been sold world-wide, though mostly in Asia, principally in Hong Kong. Over the years this very small producer has gained a following. His following has been uniquely on the basis of his DACs' sound quality. There is no promotion; there is no hype; there is no advertising. In all the reading I've done I have never before come across a set of measurements for the DACs going back to the LKS MH-DA002. Several folks here, including me, have had an LKS MH-DA004 and on the basis of listening, basically said to themselves: if this is what he can do for about $1500, I MUST hear what he can do for $3200. Others, here on this list and elsewhere, bought this DAC based on the reports only of sound quality. I think it is fair to say that, by and large, they like what they have heard and they are quite satisfied with the purchase. They have written as much. Their DACs sound just as good this week as they did last week. The designer has written that he designs by ear and not by measurement. He says designing for measurement is realtively easy. At various stages he says he made changes that could improve measurements but reversed them if the sound quality, as he heard it, was not as good. If that makes people very uncomfortable, they should probably look elsewhere for a DAC. Over the course of this audio hobby, and some of us have been into it for a long time, that approach to design used to be lauded. The designer has given an example in the lack of any feedback in his analog stage. A lack of feedback is often advertised, and is generally understood to yield better sound quality but poorer measurements. Op amp chips with feedback are thought to yield a kind of clean but sterile sound, well recognized in several popular DACs on the market. In many other areas of audio, decisions are often made in favor of devices with poorer measurements than alternatives. That would include tubes and analog sound generally. No one here has ever said that the Musetec is the best of all DACs. Like any DAC it may not be for everyone. So please, let's keep it civil. If someone says he likes another, perhaps even less expensive, DAC better than the Musetec let's just accept that and move on. And can we please move beyond toddk31's adventure. That seems to have been a very personal set of decisions, and it is over. It certainly has opened up a useful discussion of measurements versus listening as criteria for audio component design and selection, and I do not mean to discourage continuing dialog on that. It's as old as audio as I wrote before noting that early solid state electronics was "proven" by measurements to outperform high quality tube units. Modern solid state? Modern tubes? Who knows? Finally I agree about the measurements on the Musetec web site and have written to the maker about that. I know nothing about business practices in China and what criteria obtain there. That site is written in Chinese; the English is Google translate. Nonetheless, it is what it is and should be changed or deleted. |
I agree the issues ASR measurements uncovered are problematic, plenty of dacs out there, many far less expensive superior measuring.
Which brings into question; how impactful are these measurements to ultimate sound quality? With so many finding 005 sound quality to be fine, how can this be? To repeat, would the 005 be improved with better measurements? Could 005 sound quality be optimized with these exact measurments? Perhaps at some point in 005 development, measured superior, sound quality inferior?
In response to any fair evaluation of audio component, I cannot account for anyone judging product without listening. These are audio products, manufactured exclusively for listening pleasure, not laboratory equipment meant for calibration to some fixed value. |
dear toddk31 I find your behavior perfect, I have nothing to say. thank you on behalf of all for allowing us to test your unit. about your choice to return it, ditto. I own a modified dx7 pro topping with OP Muses, a Gustrard x26 Pro and this week comes the MUSETC MH DA500. I will perform blind listening tests by connecting them via SUPRA USB2 0.7m cable to a mcintosh mc152 amplifier via OEHLBACH XXL XLR 0.5m cable and to B&W 804 D3 speakers via QED Genesis Silver Spiral 1.5m cable. soon I will be able to offer you my honest consideration based solely on blind listening (plus that of about twenty friends) |
Thank you kairosman, amreicanspirit, and batvac 2. For all you people telling me I should have put into my system an listen I never had physical possession of dac. The unit was shipped from China to the west coast for the review. I live on the east coast. For all parties involved it was decided to ship the unit to Jason at Midwest instead of to me for audition. The shipping of the unit back and forth was gonna start getting kind of expensive so we all decided that our solution to the problem best served everyone. Again jason an jinbo have acted professionally. The ess hump as stated earlier has been addressed an solved by many dac manufacturers. The jitter issue an the spec issues need to be addressed by jinbo, which he has stated he will correct. I’m no shill for anyone. Again I find this asr acrimony almost humorous. I certainly do not have a problem enjoying the content of audiogon and asr. There are a lot of knowledge and kind people on both sites that are always willing to help other music lovers enjoy their hobby. There are also some peeps that are louder than they are smarter. Everyone just enjoy your music. |
Good morning without going too far into the diatribe that emerges from the differences between objective and subjective observations, I can conclude that the dilemma will never find a square: as ASR mistakenly thinks that reality can be completely represented through elementary mathematical modeling (at too childish levels if you think you can model a melody with a 1 kHz sine wave). This is completely insane, it's like comparing two atues based only on top speed on a straight ... The situation that is embarrassing for me concerns the data published on the Musetec website: With those found by ASR: even if I do not rely on the measurements, the published data must be truthful, otherwise I will lose confidence in the device manufacturer |
| He must be well aware that the 005 takes 6-8 weeks to fully burn in, maybe more. The major issues found with distortion and jitter in this unit will not be impacted by burn in.. | This is a peculiarity of all ESS chips, which cannot be heard At minimum the continued presence of the hump represents inadequate engineering skills and testing equipment. Audio companies using this chip - including Weiss - have engineered it completely away. There are SO many well-engineered DACs with vanishing levels of distortion and jitter and close to textbook linearity- you could spend a lifetime auditioning these. If you have bat ears that go beyond 20-bits of resolution, and available funds, then the May, Weiss, Mola Mola, Meitner and others await your appraisal. There may be a small group of truly gifted designers who can build certain components largely by ear, but even they typically have years of previous experience with measurements and circuit design. In general, building by ear is NOT a good strategy for DACs.
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@lordmelton no offense taken, you could be right, I might have old-man hearing (I am 59). The guys over on ASR certainly have suggested as much more than once. BTW the dude on here who has returned his 005 is not a hero over on ASR, all he has said there is that he was disappointed that the ASR measurements revealed Musetec's published measurements as overly optimistic. Whether Amir burned in the 005 prior to testing and whether his testing regime is fair are other matters for discussion, agreed. Just to be clear which side of the fence I am on, I am all for listening over measurements, but I am also for truth in advertising and feel like Jinbo will be doing the right thing by addressing the issue of his optimistic measurements head on... it could very well turn out that Amir's testing regime is the culprit here and NOT Jinbo's pecuniary ambitions! |
@kairosman Unfortunately I have had too many DACs go through my home in the last 2 years to remember the details of the D90SE filters. I know I tried them all but do not recall which on I settled on. I do remember thinking that I should try a filter that was not too 'hot' on top when I was listening with the RAAL SR1a headphones. As I mentioned previously the D90SE was not great with those headphones because I had a bit of fatigue..
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@kairosman I don't know why you would want to support the ASR shill. As others have mentioned he sold his Holo Spring (which had a good rating on ASR) presumably because he didn't like it, again presumably he preferred the 004 which he owned. Now if you like something and would like to upgrade to the new model and there have been zero negative reports about the new model, then it would be logical to just buy it and enjoy it, yes? Either on his initive or that of his master he drop ships it directly to ASR. He informed us that Musetec and Mid West Audio knew exactly what he was doing and were fine with this. Niether have commented so far. Well he's been following this thread and must be well aware that the 005 takes 6-8 weeks to fully burn in, maybe a little more. Well that's not good enough for the shill he wants to send a cold one, which he does. So regarding the test they are SINAD tests and better than commenting myself I refer you to Goldensound's video on testing which you can easily find on YouTube. Secondly we have the "dreaded hump" well this is a peculiarity of all ESS chips, which to all intents and purposes cannot be heard. Now don't you logically think that one of the largest chip makers in the World don't know about this issue, and if there was a real problem they'd fix it, yes? Even Weiss use the same chips among other Hi-End brands. Now what the shill says here and at ASR are juxtaposed. Over there he's a big hero and getting plenty of slaps on the back. Now if this was a scientific experiment he'd also send in his 004 for testing and send the 005 to Goldensound or actually listen to it himself, but it's not about logic or truth is it? Finally @kairosman and I don't mean to insult you here but if you can't tell the difference between the 005 and the D90SE then to be brutally honest this hobby is not for you. We are all good at somethings and not so good at others so sell the 005 and keep the D90SE and move over to ASR, because they can't or don't listen to differences either. You'll also save an absolute fortune on cables. Otherwise you'll end up like me currently auditioning a $3k USB cable. |
Err my last post which contained an expletive was deleted by the moderator, the main point of that post was to support @toddk31 and his return of his 005 on principal based on the fact he purchased it partly?/mainly? because of the Jinbo’s published measurements, which ASR’s measurements have revealed to be "optimistic". IMHO Jinbo must have known his measurements were "optimistic" given the quality of his DACS and his recent correspondence with @melm - no? Jinbo and his distributor have so far responded properly and that is to their credit, but now the cat is out of the bag it should be clear to them that it is in their interest to supply more realistic/accurate/reproducible measurements on the Musetec website and marketing materials moving forward - or "fix" the problem WITHOUT ruining the 005’s secret sauce. As for my own 005 versus the D90SE that the ASR crowd adore, my listening tests so far have me feeling it is indeed difficult to hear a qualitative difference between them via 2 channel listening. Headphones are next. But it is still early days. Btw @yyzsantabarbara which D90SE PCM/DSD filters do you like the most? |
