Anyone have experience between
discrete v
playback edelweiss v
aries cerat Helene?
MSB DAC's Popularity
Hello All,
I would appreciate some insight on the above. I'm in the market for a DAC with volume control and am exploring the Discrete or Premier. I question the lack of reviews and even dialog on AGon? The limited reviews that appear portray stellar performers; however, not many exist on the used market. Are they so good that no one sells? Or, is the price/performance not commensurate and nobody buys? I do love the future-proofing built into their designs! Could you please share your experiences with those who own or have auditioned? I'm looking for an end-game product, if that is even possible in digital.
Thanks!
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My friend has a MSB Reference DAC and recently updated the units firmware. She suggested I check the MSB web site for updates to my MSB Premier DAC. I did and found the new firmware version 19.14. You can check the current version of Firmware installed by following these steps:
The Premier DAC – Firmware Update Version 19.14 released 6/30/21. This update includes minor bug fixes and a new mode to power off the Renderer if not used. See manual for details. From the MSB Support page, I coped the firmware file to a flash drive and inserted it into my Aurender N20 Music Server. I selected the file, hit play and the upgrade started. PLEASE TURN YOUR VOLUME ON SO YOU CAN HEAR THE INSTRUCTIONS AND TRACK THE UPGRADE PROGRESS. The upgrade completed and everything worked perfectly.
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The “rendering” is an internal streaming module. A streamer built in the DAC. Think of it as a network bridge, a streamer (fed by Ethernet cable), but in a modular form, that you can insert into the DAC. In simplified terms, the MSB DAC has a slot, where you can insert their removable/ swappable modules, such as the Ethernet streaming module (the renderer), the USB B input module, and so on. I hope this helps
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I just upgraded the firmware in my MSB Premier DAC to version 19.14 and it was very easy. The software upgrade is on their web site in the support tab by product. Please read the MSB firmware upgrade instructions carefully. I copied the software upgrade file to a flash drive, inserted it in my Aurender and ran it. The software upgrade ran very smooth and there were no issues. Please turn your volume on so you can hear the instructions, etc. The screen said 19.14 and everything works. Amazing. |
MSB is one of the truly elite DAC makers in the world. Given the higher price point fewer people have a chance to hear and interact with them compared to more mainstream brands. I have heard the Discrete and the Reference. I have not heard the Premier. I have a good friend who is borderline obsessed with his Discrete and is bringing in a Premier for a demo to decide if he wants a DAC upgrade vs. Speaker upgrade. In this range, it is very debatable what the best option is and a secondary consideration is how you are going to feed information to the DAC. MSB is appealing since it give you the option of an internal renderer or a myriad of first rate inputs giving you lots of choice. It is also neutral to a hair warm of neutral and will show up in any system that way. It will pair well with Antipodes, Pink Faun or Taiko servers. From a competitive perspective, dCS is obvious but has a much brighter sound signature and often are best with their own internal streamers. This is an FPGA design and delivers elite performance. The Bartok and Rossini are worth looking at if you need some top-end energy. Rockna is similar to MSB in that it is an R2R. They used to even use MSB ladders in their older models. Nicolae is an absolute genius in terms of design. The Wavedream Edition is in-line with the Discrete in terms of sound quality and the Signature competes with the Premier. You get a bit of a discount because it is made in Romania vs. US or UK. It is also best with it's own server as there is a dedicated connection between the clock in the Wavedream NET and DAC via I2S connection. These are dead neutral and you will see in reviews, description of the sound profile is difficult because nothing really stands out. The biggest critique is they can be a bit boring because they are so neutral. Playback Design is about to release the Edelweiss which is going to be $15K retail FPGA DAC. Playback's sound signature is very natural and analog sounding which is achieved via crazy internal upscaling. I am super amped up about this one and have it on preorder with an internal player. The Dream DAC at $24K is an absurdly good DAC and they have a fully integrated player at about $30K which is an interesting unit. Despite relatively modest pricing, their is a segment of the audiophile community that believes Playback is the best of them all. Ares Cerat makes incredible units. The wait time on these can be a bit long as global demand is crazy. They are one of the most attractive units I have ever seen but you may need reinforcement for your rack as they are insanely heavy. Jadis, Total DAC, Brinkman, EMM and a variety of others also make incredible DACs in this price range. There is far more choice that you would think. |
i just picked up an msb analog dac w power base, will be fun to compare it to the others on hand (weiss, audio note, chord stack, and so on) ... first reaction is it is rich and silky smooth, easeful, yet has impact and insight, quite impressed... many terrific ’analog’ qualities along with the utter blackness of background and fine microdetail that the best digital affords |
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I've had an MSB Analog DAC for about 8 or 9 years - it's a ladder DAC with a volume control, and it's excellent and has never had a problem - I was running it directly into my MSB Power Amp, and that sounded good, but when I put a Herron Audio line preamp between them, WOW, what an improvement! Currently I'm using the MSB DAC in my headphone system, and I've got a Holo May DAC for the 2-channel... Vince Gallo at MSB will be happy to talk to you about any and all things MSB! |
@tomic601 "$2k-$5k DAC of the month club..." you are right! Said DAC is also authoritatively proclaimed to be the killer of all giants 2x, 5x, 10x greater in price while direct experience need not apply. Is it still the Holo May as of now? |
@ghdprentice Is right in his above post. “Technology used is one thing in high end equipment but it is all about implementation and the blend of components and overall design”. This means you have to audition a DAC in your system to ensure you like the resulting sound quality. Professional reviews are interesting but its your budget and ears. |
I auditioned a MSB Premier and Berkeley Reference 3 in a dealers show room. Unfortunately I was not able to complete the audition due to dealer technical difficulties. During the demo it was apparent that both are comparable high quality DACs. The demo did not last long enough to quantify the DAC differences other than they both sounded excellent. You cant go wrong with either one. In the end I purchased the Berkeley reference 3. |
generally Agon is the domain of the $2k -$5k DAC of the month club…just look BACk over time and you will catch the wave…. MSB has been and most likely be a significant player for the long term… I auditioned an MSB Analog w Powerbase against a Aesthetix Pandora - Signature, both DACs ya don’t hear much about…here…but are in great systems worldwide…..add Lampizator and a few others…. Fun, enjoy the music….. |
Typically I start from professionally reviewed and rated components: Stereophile or The Absolute sound. Particularly when you are looking at expensive equipment. These reviewers generally have heard the very best and lessor units so they can place it in the context of sound type and price. They also use standard high end audio terminology. Unless someone on the forum takes the time to present his experience, biases and associated equipment you are very unlikely to get really useful input like that here. As additional info, when you already know a lot, or for general guidance this forum is great.
There are no professional reviews I could find in these units. To me that is a huge red flag. Seldom does the technology used make a huge difference except in budget equipment… in high end equipment it is all about implementation and the blend of components and overall design.
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@jeffreyw Jeffrey, you will find the information you are looking for, regarding MSB, over at What’s Best Forum. |
A decision to purchase a DAC at this price range requires research, many conversations, auditions, and more auditions. I auditioned several DAC ‘s and decided, for me, I liked the sound of a ladder R2R DAC. Yes, I made mistakes during the way but learned valuable lessons. I wanted a USA company that supported their products with excellent customer support. I own the MSB Premier DAC, Premier Powerbase and Femto 93 clock and like it very much. The addition of this DAC substantially improved my audio system sound quality. The Premier has four prime R2R DAC’s, 2 per side, a separate power supply and many other features. The Premier Powerbase is offers two dual-link power connectors, supplying four isolated power supplies. “MSB brochure say they use no off-the-shelf DAC chips, but instead makes their own converters. Each of the four Prime DACs at the heart of the Premier is a fully balanced, discrete, ladder DAC. MSB’s ladder DACs use precision-reconfigurable networks of resistors and switches to precisely convert your digital files into music”. The MSB DAC connects to my Aurender N20 server using the Femto 93 clock to control the data transfer. The cable from the DAC to my Aurender improved the sound quality. I use the Analysis Plus Digital Crystal cable for the word transfer. I also experimented with an USB and AES/EBU connections for 2 weeks. After lots of switching back and forth, I prefer the AES/EBU connection. This is the only option on my MSB DAC. MSB offers several other options that you need to review and discuss with your retailer. The addition of the MSB Premier DAC substantially improved the sound quality of my audio system. To my ears, everything sounds truly outstanding. The music is clearer, less dark, better bass and sounds more like music. I hope this helps.
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