Moving from integrated to separates
So far, I have mostly owned integrated amplifiers. The only time I owned separates was when I had Parasound A21 and Parasound P6. Since then I have bought many integrated amps, and they have all been excellent for the most part. My current amp is the Audio Hungary Qualiton a50i which is by far the best integrated tube amp I have owned. It is a pure class A amp that is surprisingly powerful even though it provides only 50 watts. However, I recently bought new speakers -- Joseph Audio Perspective2 Graphene (which are replacing Harbeth SHL5+). Given the low sensitivity, I was expecting the Qualiton won’t be able to handle the speakers, but I think the rather benign (relatively speaking) impedance of the speakers helps, and to my surprise the amp is driving the speakers quite well. Even the bass is quite tight and punchy a far as tube amps go. To be very honest, I can easily live with this amp for a long time. But what’s the fun in being an audiophile then :)
That being said, I realize that 50 watts are 50 watts. I have a feeling that the Perspective2’s will scale even better with more power. Instead of looking for another integrated, I think I’m ready to give another shot to separates. But what is not negotiable at this time is that I simply won’t move to solid state, not even hybrid. I have tried a few integrated SS amps (last one was Luxman 590AXII), and while most of them were amazing in their own right, I have realized that I am at heart a tube guy. I’m not naive and I certainly understand the negatives associated with tubes (less bass, some loss of dynamics, etc.), but for now I’m looking for an all-tube solution.
So fellow audiogoners, please provide suggestions as you see fit. A few key asks:
1. Both the amp and pre-amp must be tube-based. No hybrids at this time. If you suggest an amplifier please also suggest the accompanying pre-amp that mates well. I’m not very savvy when it comes to matching the components so feel free to educate me :)
2. I’m also open to mono-blocks, but my budget might be a limiting factor. Total budget is $12,000 (for both pieces). To get the most mileage I think I will have to buy used.
3. I’m not a fan of the ’modern’ tube sound. I owned Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II and thought it sounded more like an SS amp at times. However, this does not mean I’m looking for the vintage ’romantic’ sound of the past. My Qualiton a50i is a good example of straddling the fine line between sounding too modern and overly lush or romantic. Something in between is highly desirable.
4. I love my Qualiton a50i and don’t plan on selling it. I’ll move it to my second system. The only reason I want to try out separates is to get more power. I’m thinking at least 100 watts if not more - preferably in class A but not carved in stone. However, more power should not come at the expense of losing the ’magic’ of tubes.
5. I don’t need any built-in phono, DAC, tone controls, etc. in the preamp. But a remote control is a must.
6. And lastly it has to look good. I know, I know ... looks should be secondary to SQ, but what can I say. Maybe I’m vain when it comes to audio.
I really appreciate any recommendations. I know I’m asking for a lot and maybe you guys will tell me that $12K is not enough given the desired attributes. Since I’m buying used I’m prepared to create a short list of maybe 4-5 suggested combinations and buy as and when the components become available in the market. Also, feel free to educate me as to what to look for to create the right synergy between the preamp and amp beyond just the technicalities.
Thank you in advance for your help.
I was listening to music a couple of nights ago, and it was sounding just amazing. I have been fiddling around with positioning (both speakers and subs) and to be honest I’m finding it hard to find fault with what I’m experiencing. For reference, the volume knob used to be at 10’o clock when I had the SHL5+ in the main system. The JA’s are of course less efficient, but they sound plenty loud (with no discernible distortion as far as I can tell) when the volume is at 11’0 clock. It gets VERY loud if I go beyond 1’o clock. The Joseph Audios have this magical thing about them that they just pull you in where you’re only listening to music and not the equipment. The SHL5+ also did it, but the Perspectives just do it more and better. The soundstage is very wide, deep, and imaging is just about perfect. The pair of REL S/510’s have finally blended in well. But honestly, I don’t really need them for 80% of the music that I usually listen to. I’m seriously questioning why I’m even entertaining the idea of switching to another amp. I have had many amps in the past, and so far no other amp has checked all the boxes for me the way the Qualiton a50i has. I listed a few amps that I owned in the previous post, but forgot to add that I also owned an Audio Research GSi75 (KT150). While it was an excellent amp, I find the Qualiton to be more balanced and for whatever reason it sounds more powerful. I think I’m going to take it slow and enjoy what I have. Maybe I’ll think about upgrading next year, but for now I feel I’m in a very good place. I mean why fix it if it ain’t broke :) I appreciate the wonderful suggestions and advice. |
I should have mentioned that I have owned other tube amps (all integrated though) that were not KTxx-based. I owned a VTL IT-85 (EL34), Rogers 65v2 (EL34 SET), Raven Audio Blackhawk (6L6GC), VAC Sigma 160i (KT88), and a few others. They all excelled in one way or another. One thing I had read about KT120's and 150's is that when they first came out, a lot of manufacturers simply tweaked their existing amps to support the new design. The results were not always favorable. A common complaint was that while the dynamics and power improved, the special midrange magic was somewhat lost. This probably left a lasting impression on some people. However, I feel that the newer versions (e.g., my Qualiton a50i) which were designed from the ground up to support KT120/150 compete quite favorably with other tube designs. I feel that KT120/150 are more versatile in terms of handling a variety of music genres. This is of course based on my own experience. |
I'd look at Parasound JC5 Stereo Amp, with 90 amps peak current both channels that's huge to help make those excellent JA speakers sing! I heard those speakers at Pacific Audio Fest in Seattle and were my favs of the show. Stretch your budget and get pair of JC1+ mono blocks with peak current at 180 amps!!!! |
I don't know if the price have moved but you might consider the McIntosh C22 preamp and MC275 power amp. This is very good sounding gear and I think it looks really good. The MC275 is not be all end all in terms of detail but on budget, for new gear.... I am not a Mc dealer so I am thinking of prices from before inflation. Hopefully this is still in that range. Definitely will be used. |
I would be helpful to know how close you now come to running out of clean power. With tube amps, you don't get the shrill, harsh output from the tweeter that you get when solid state is running out of gas--you tend to first experience compression (you turn up the volume but it doesn't get much louder), followed by a muddled sound lacking in clarity and imaging starts to break down. If you hear that at very high volume levels, you have to decide how important reaching such levels really is to your overall listening enjoyment (I don't like to listen at high levels, so I don't give high volume capability much priority, but, you may differ in your needs). You could also get a cheap meter that measures how many watts are being delivered to your speakers. At a fairly high volume level, you generally want to stay below 1/4 of rated power of the amp, except for the very occasional peaks. Most people grossly over estimate how much power they really need and end up chasing the wrong thing in their quest for better sound. Nelson Pass created a company dedicated to making really good solid state amps optimized for delivering great sound at lower power levels--the company name "First Watt" reflects its philosophy. As that company put it--"Who cares what an amp sounds like at 500 watts if it sounds like crap at one watt?" I've heard a couple of these First Watt amps and they are among the best solid state amps I've heard. I think the same can be said of tube amps. Most of the very best I've heard were low powered. Unfortunately, low-powered tube means REALLY low power. I own three tube amps, and the one with the highest rated power is the Audio Note Kageki at, I believe 6.5 watts per channel. My current favorite amp that I own is a 5.5 watt per channel pushpull 349 amp. My all time favorite amp is a custom built OTL amp that I think is rated at something like 20 watts (maybe more) that a friend owns. |
I know …😄 I lashed out on some really expensive (for me) gear. I had a plan on going to Supratech at the end of the week, but they’re playing it cautious with COVID exposure, so I will not be getting a look at that gear. Atmasphere would also be a brand I would consider. (I have some VTLs and Primaluna) |
I’m a huge fan of tubes and respect the special qualities of class A topologies, but in my experience 50 Watts is indeed 50 Watts - as it pertains to the upper limit of the amp. We’re not discussing big-box store Home Theater receivers, circa 2000. On the other hand, some amps (usually tube amps) can sound GREAT right up to their clipping limit, whereas other amps will start to fall apart and sound like crap way before their clipping limit. That’s probably what you meant. But the upper limit is a hard line you DON’T want to breach, and this too needs attention. The discussion on tube types is also relevant. I agree that KT88 / KT120 tubes will sound a bit harder than 6L6GC and EL34 types, which are sweet and musical. In fact it’s probably an achievement to make a 6L6 or EL34 amp sound bad. But the latter usually comes in much lower power flavors, and this makes the clipping limit very relevant. I wish there were more amps that used LOTS of parallel push/pull pairs of 6L6 or EL34 to make 100 Watts or more. I think that’s a hole in the market. The only amps with multiple push pull pairs are usually KT88 / 120 / 150 based and mega-buck, mega-watt deals. I bet an octet of 6L6 / EL34 per each side would be perfect for my Tannoys :) |
I don’t know your situation as to ability to actually hear different amps. If you can, hear something that runs something other than KT 88, KT 120, or KT 150s. Those tubes are almost ubiquitous where power is the big selling point, but, there are other tube types worth hearing that tend to be not as ‘hard” sounding or don’t have as much of what I would call “glare.” Perhaps even a 211 single -ended amp from a reputable builder like Airtight (Japanese) or Wyetech (Canadian) will work. |
You will not necessarily gain much by going to tubed separates.
Really - I guess my company is out of business then!
If you want to hear what the difference will sound like buy Counterpoint preamp SA-2000 and a Counterpoint SA-100 power amp. If that does not work out, you can sell them for probably what you purchase them for. If you do like them, have them upgraded to reference level components. Happy Listening.
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@arafiq That’s a nice looking amp you got there! I did a similar thing you are going to do. I had PrimaLuna HP but suspected more power for my speakers was in order (Sonus faber Guarneri evolutions) and more power, in this case, was the cure. Like you I kept the "old" amp for a B system...maybe a C system..who knows. I think for your 12K budget keeping to integrated best. Or used and not very rencent will be the way. This will blow many amps away Rogers High Fidelity EHF-200 MK2 Integrated Tube Amplifier LIFETIME WARRANTY Uses a remote to operate. as will this Rogers High Fidelity KWM-88 Integrated Tube Amplifier LIFETIME WARRANTY Run’s from an iPad or phone. Got this one and sent it back and had it moded for KT170's. Even my wife said wow and she could care nary a fig. Try it for 30 days! This stranger on the internet says so. As Ebay takes 13% a phone call to Rogers HiFI will save you that and more.(Hint) And there’s PS Audio where for your budget you can get excellent separates. Done. But no tubes...But..... You could also do a PRIMALUNA EVO 300 HYBRID TUBE INTEGRATED AMP PrimaLuna Separates will top over 12K And the much maligned in these parts McIntosh's get 'er done.
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@soix damn that’s a tempting price on that 300.1a! |
I totally agree it’s a worthwhile experiment to try a higher-powered amp as, as good as it may still sound, if you’re pushing an amp to the higher end of its limits you’re not hearing it at its best. That said, I have to say I’d be sorely tempted to try this VAC listed here at 150Wpc... You can obviously resell at little/no loss if it doesn’t work out for you, but it’ll still answer a lot of the valid questions you have. |
I have not heard any Qualiton amp so I cannot say how it compares to the Synthesis. These days, certain types of tubes are overlooked by the market because, within a given basic design, transformer requirement, etc., these tube types do not deliver as much power, and power sells. But, many of these overlooked types deliver great sound. I am particularly a fan of 6L6 tubes, but, the current market is not interested because, for the same manufacturing cost, one can make a KT 120 or KT 150 amp which will smoke the 6L6, in terms of output. It may well be the case that you need the extra power of these tube types, but, it is still worth your effort to hear a really good 6L6 amp, or its cousin, the KT 66. There is something quite special about some of the low-powered pentode/tetrode tubes. I happen to own a pair of quite efficient speakers, so I have the opportunity to run some really low-powered tubes in pushpull that sound fantastic. I run the Western Electric 349 output tube which is a relative of the 6L6, but it delivers much less power. My amp supposedly puts out about 5.5 watts per channel. I've been running the same tubes for well over ten years and the tubes were of who-knows-what-age when I got the amp (old stock tubes). The amp pushes the tubes very gently. This is a good thing because the 349s cost a fortune if you can even find them for sale. |
+2, @mulveling & @arafiq on more power is not about being able to go louder.
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@mulveling I was about to write something very similar to what you just said. In my experience, more power is not always about being able to go louder. It's the extra gas in the tank so to speak, better control, detail retrieval, and an overall sense of ease that more watts and current bring to the table. Who knows, at the end of the day I might reach the conclusion that my current amp is the best solution for me. But how do I know if there is "better" unless I'm willing to explore and take some risks along the way. |
@larryi Thanks for the suggestions. From what you're describing about Synthesis, it sounds very similar to the Audio Hungary Qualiton amps -- "more alive and having more weight". Atmasphere is also a good suggestion .. although, I have my doubts about OTL amps being able to control the Perspective2 speakers. |
This gets said a lot, but to me 3dB is a whole lot! Find your "optimal" listening level for a session, then add 3dB, or subtract 3dB. It's a lot of difference. 3dB is "not much" for the very casual listener, but for us audiophiles it's another story. Even if you don't need 3dB more volume than your current amps, adding 3dB of clean overhead / margin can help keep the nasty kinds of distortion below audibility. |
The local dealer in my area, Deja Vu Audio, sells only tube amplification. Their primary line of electronics are Audio Note, Synthesis and Conrad Johnson. I really like the Audio Note line up, but, their amps are aimed at high efficiency speakers. The Synthesis line spans both medium and higher wattage tube offerings. As I mentioned above, I really like their A40 and A100 amps (both well within your price range). For the various speakers I've heard in comparison, I liked the Synthesis amps more than I do the Conrad Johnson, and the Conrad Johnson 150 watt amp is much more expensive. Of course it may be a matter of system matching, but, even with somewhat difficult to drive speakers, like some Harbeth models, the Synthesis amps were considerably better to me--more alive and having more "weight" to the sound. I know output transformerless amps are a bit harder to match to speakers (they prefer high impedance speakers), but, it would be worthwhile trying to audition Atmasphere amps. These amps are very dynamic sounding and exciting. |
@lalitk Thanks for the suggestion. I will reach out to you later to pick your brain a bit more (as usual :)) Given your taste, I know that if you're recommending something it has to be extraordinary. Let's talk later. |
@holmz I couldn’t agree with your post more. I thought about your comment about whether this is a ’rational’ need ... and I have to admit that you’re right. I was listening to music last night and I was emotionally connected, my foot was tapping, and I was focusing on music instead of the gear. These JA Perspective2’s are pretty amazing. And I did ask myself ’why’? However, sometimes there is an itch that needs to be scratched, however irrational it might happen to be. That’s why my plan is to keep my Qualiton a50i, try out some used equipment (preferably known brands for easier resell just in case) , and sell it if I don’t notice considerable improvement. One thing I’m very clear on is that the improvement has to be considerable -- no lateral moves, or 10% better kinda stuff. Your advice is highly appreciated. Thanks. |
Thanks for the suggestions, folks. VAC and Conrad Johnson are definitely on the list. I think what would help me is if you guys can suggest specific models to look for -- both amps and preamps. Another friend suggest VAC 200iq as a possibility. Since I'm buying used, and I readily admit that I'm more in the 'experiment' mode as opposed to looking for a change because something is Iacking in my system, going with more well-established brands means I can sell the equipment in case it doesn't work out. Going with lesser known brands means I will take a bath otherwise ... speaking from personal experience here :)
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You will not necessarily gain much by going to tubed separates. Many tube integrated amps are essentially a basic tube amp with just an added volume control, source selector and additional input jacks. You should not assume that you need more power or that more power is the best approach to improving sound. You should explore all options. More power can come at the cost of sound quality. I personally prefer low-powered tube amps over high powered tube amps that parallel multiple tubes to achieve higher power or use tube types that I don’t particularly like. As for a specific suggestion, I would recommend the Synthesis Audio A100 integrated. It has a surprisingly good built- in DAC. Even though you don’t need a DAC, the amp is still quite the bargain at its price. It uses a quad of KT 66 tubes for it’s 100 wpc rated output. It’s baby brother, the A40 uses two KT 66 tubes per channel and it also be adequate power for your purposes. The amps are dynamic, harmonically full and rich, and deliver a large-scale sound. They don’t have the hard, brittle sound and upper mid-range glare I hear with some high-powered tube amps. |
The opposite of fun is spending money and giong backwards.
I would say you should want “more than a feeling” (that you will “scale” with more power.) If you crank it up louder, or try to, and it does not to do it, then you need more power.
So it sounds like you do not have a rational need that is driving the want, and hence I am wondering if you would be better off going slow. It sounds like you already have the synergy happening?? |
