On topic... I have an Auralex subdude in my bedroom and while it seems to help with isolating the bass to that room, don't expect miracles. Bass waves carry. How many times have you heard the bass from a car half a block away? If it's too loud, others are going to hear it.
@erik_squires It's unfortunate when one or more people suggest there's only one "best" way to get good bass. It's also unfortunate that you've seen fit to classify all proponents of a multiple sub setup as belonging to a "cult", especially since you display "fanboy" tendencies towards certain products, in particular, GIK Acoustics.
It's a bit of hello Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.
I use 4 subs in my main 2 channel system (5 for movies). I also have room treatments (not GIK). Going to a four sub setup was transformational and one of, if not the most noticeable upgrades I've made.
I have three other systems, each of which has ONE subwoofer. For my goals for those systems and the rooms they are in, one sub is enough. I've also shared more than once on this forum that one of the best systems for bass that I've ever heard was at a friend's house. He uses two subs and extensive room treatments.
When it comes to bass, there's more than one way to achieve great results. Besides, "great" is subjective... |
Xcool asked,
" Do you have any suggestion on reducing vibration to the wall behind and to the side of my subwoofer? Would acoustic panel or bass trap help? "
To the extent that the vibrations in the walls are structure-borne, the SVS SoundPath Isolator should help.
As for reducing air-borne vibrations by using an acoustic panel or bass trap, I don’t know how effective that would be, nor the best way to go about it.
This is much more likely to fall within @erik_squires’ area of expertise. Erik?
Duke
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Hi Duke, thanks for the suggestion on Auralex SubDude. I wonder how they compare to the SVS SoundPath Isolator that I just ordered.
I have the SVS isolators under my SVS subs and they did help tighten up the bass a bit. My results were fairly subtle. I believe that they are designed to reduce the transmission of the vibrations of the sub cabinet itself, to the floor. I don't think they will have any impact on the airborne vibrations created by the speakers. I have no experience with Auralex. If you like fat bass the REL is a good choice, if you like punchy bass I would go with some one else like Rythmik or SVS, though there are many other brands that would work also. |
Thanks for the recommendation. I was looking at both REL and SVS. I really like the REL feature. It can accommodate both 2 channel music with a low pass filter setting, and Home Theater usage with a LFE input. The information I found on their website is that the low pass filter doesn't apply to LFE. It only applies to 2 channel input. This is exactly what I want. However, my only concern with REL is their passive downward firing drive. I'm really trying to reduce any vibration onto the floor.
As with the SVS subs, they just seem to get a lot of good reviews, and reasonably priced. So it seems to be a good option. But according to the answer I got back from their support team, the low pass filter does apply to both 2 channels input and LFE - which is not what I want. |
Hello xcool,
Does “xcool” mean you were cool previously but not currently, or does it mean you’re multiples of cool?
One option to significantly reduce bass vibrations reaching the floor below is to place the subs on a slab of a solid material that will reflect the vibration-inducing deep bass sound waves rather than vibrating itself and transferring the vibration to the floor below. I know slabs of granite are good to use and remnant pieces at reduced prices are often available from local retail stone vendors. The bass sound waves launched from the passive bass driver, which are typically used just to vent excess air pressure from inside the sub ‘s cabinet, strike the very hard surface of the granite and are redirected out into the room through the spaces between the bottom of the sub and the surface of the granite.
I believe Subdude platforms do the same thing, but I’ve never used them, so I’m not certain.
Tim
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Guys!, his amps aren't up to it in the bass with that kind of load, sure they're 250w at 8ohm, but they start s*****g themselves even into 4ohms let alone 2ohms!! which is the kind of load the 804 d3's give in the bass.
232.8W @ 8 ohms, 352.0W @ 4 ohms
Look at the Stereophile 804 review, the reviewer used the same amps and complained also about the bass also.
Cheers George |
Xcool wrote: "Later that evening the building manager sent out an email to all residents that he received a complaint from some residents that they hear very loud bass music coming through their wall..."
Also they both seem to reduce vibration to the floor. I wonder by reducing that, will it also reduce vibration to the wall. Do you have any suggestion on reducing vibration to the wall behind and to the side of my subwoofer? Would acoustic panel or bass trap help?
What about THE GRs OB, are you interested in good bass that won't threaten your neighbors sanity, and the same floor space or smaller?Look into it.. It works very well. Room treatment, and again sub lite outside, pretty punchy inside...Works very well. Not a sealed unit. It pressures the room from both sides of the cone..Harmonics are less of an issue..
Regards |
Hey @noble100 xcool means I used to be cool, but no longer. But I'm older and wiser though. :-) |
Sub woofer gives you more flexibility and maybe cheaper. It would be cheaper because you need to increase your amp power by a factor of 2 to 3 to really make a difference in the bass for those B&Ws.. This will almost always cost more.
Furthermore, a sub is specifically designed to have special speakers/motor which can handle more power. |
Check out HSU & Martin Logan subs. At less than $1000, you will get a remarkable sub. |
The information I found on their website is that the low pass filter doesn't apply to LFE. I could be mistaken here, but I believe that REL is using the low pass filter in LFE mode, it's just not adjustable. It is permanently set at 120hz. |
For HT and LFE, it may be possible to adjust the crossover frequency through your surround processor, DVD or Blu-ray player. I know both my Oppo 105 and 205 Blu-ray players have this capacity, yours may too.
Tim |
My thoughts: 1. The speakers can sound "punchier" at the dealer because they usually crank-them-up. Since a typical Magnolia room is larger than a normal home room, they can play a lot louder without overloading the room. Being placed close to the wall enhances the bass. 2. Are the foam plugs in the ports? This reduces bass quantity. 3. I'm a proud 804D3 owner and, yes, these speakers need reinforcement. |
One thing that usually isn’t taken into account is the fact that, regardless of power, placement or how great we think our hearing is, human hearing is Not equally sensitive to all frequencies at lower to moderate volumes. So if you are speaking of low bass down near 30Hz, you would have to be listening at a nominal volume of about 80db before the bass seemed adequately loud and for frequencies approaching 20Hz, the listening volume would have to be up near 100db (considerably louder than I care to listen, any more). On the high end, frequencies perceptively balance out at about 60db. Thus was the purpose of the old loud button on many of the vintage amps.
One advantage to a good, well integrated sub/subs, is the ability to boost the bass volume to accommodate listening at moderate volume levels, without loosing the bottom end bass. It could be that you were listening to the music, at the dealer, at a louder level than it seemed. Not to take away from the other suggestions, but just another case for a good, well integrated sub/subs...Jim
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That's Fletcher Munson equal loudness curves you're talking about. Duke has said pretty much the same thing. One consequence of this is its important when setting sub levels to do it at a level you care most about. |
I use matched amps and pre-amps for my older 803's and subs. This gives me control of the bass without creating out of phase signals. It also allows me to tailor the bass for the recording. Many old albums really open up when the bass is not relegated to a recording mixed for what a 1960's 35 wpc amp could produce, or a modern AVR receiver. Powered subs with frequency roll off controls, as well as tone controls, alter the phasing, thus negating B&W's primary design philosophy. They are also hard to adjust for each recording.
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Also, you might want to use your amp for the subs, then get a less powerful amp for the 804's, if price is a consideration. 100 watts will easily power them, as long as you are using subs.
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danvignau:”I use matched amps and pre-amps for my older 803's and subs. This gives me control of the bass without creating out of phase signals. It also allows me to tailor the bass for the recording. “
If your tailoring the bass for individual recordings, that indicates to me the subs are are either not positioned properly in relation to the listen seat or the primary controls on one or more subs, volume, crossover frequency and phase, are not properly set. Setting these 3 primary controls properly on each sub is very important for seamlessly integrating subs into a system and room, just as important as properly locating each sub in the room in relation to the listening seat. It’s also usually the most time consuming step When incorporating subs into the system and room. This is due to the reality that a good sampling of musical tracks, of different genres and containing significant bass content, need to be played to determine the optimum settings on these controls that provides the most natural sounding bass.
If adequate time is not devoted to thoroughly completing this step and arriving at the optimum balance of bass settings for all subs that sounds very good on all music genres listened to, individuals may feel a need to adjust these settings prior to or even during playback. Who would willingly accept doing that?
Tim
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I’m using a pass labs xa25 to drive my 804 d3s. No problems with bass. The bass is controlled, deep and detailed. The xa25 loves pushing those loads being stable down to 1 ohm along with a damping factor of 500. Positioning from the front wall was key for me also. The bass power would vary by each 1/4". It took time to dial it in. Literally, 3/4" was the difference between too much bass that began to smear the mid-range slightly to having the perfect bass for me. My speakers are toed in, so measuring from the inside corner of each speaker to the wall is 31". (30.25" was too much bass, 31.50" was too little bass). Measuring from the tweeter to the wall perpendicularly is 33.5". Measuring in parallel from the tweeter to the wall is 35". I do use bass traps on the 4 corners of my front wall. I have no need for rear bass traps because my back wall is 35’ away. I also use isoacoustic Gaia ii for the 804s which tightens up bass. This is my experience with the 804s.
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Hello gweedoargus,
Your description makes perfect sense to me. The B&W 804 d3s are no doubt a very high quality pair of speakers with impressive bass extension down to 20 Hz +/- 3 db. However, I still think you’d be pleasantly surprised by how much a good quality pair of subs would improve the performance and enjoyment of your system.
The main reason I’m confident in this belief is only due to the fact that the 804s share a problem common to all full range tower speakers; the bass, midrange and treble drivers are all contained in the same cabinet. The main issue with this configuration is that it’s highly unlikely that the same stacked vertical footprint position of the drivers in the room, and in relation to the listening position, is optimum for midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance AND optimum bass performance.
It’s much more likely that the position of the midrange and treble drivers in the room, and in relation to the listening position, for optimum midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance are at an entirely unique. precise and separate stacked vertical footprint location than the position of the bass drivers would be in the room for optimum bass performance.
So, I’m suggesting you may want to try adding at least a pair of good quality subs to your room and system sometime if you’re feeling curious and adventurous. I think you’ll be surprised at what a significant upgrade this would make to your system for both music and HT.
Tim
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save $
look at the BIC America subs.
inexpensive and a 7 yr warranty on driver.
Are the the top tier in subs,...?no!
They will play loud and add some serious bass. Powered subs,
wont use your amps power. |
I guess I would ask " how is the mid range " ?
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Not seeing too much on the JL Audio subwoofers. I think them and REL seem to have top experience and engineering know how. |
I would disagree with the suggestion to moving the speakers closer to the wall. That may give you more bass, but it will adversely affect the soundstage. When I changed the power cord on my Audio Valve mono blocks and my Ref 6 to PAD Diamond I had deeper and tighter bass. That really improved the bass on my Bella Voce speakers. Also, the speaker cable you use will also help. |
I would disagree with the suggestion to moving the speakers closer to the wall. If you run subs moving them closer to the wall is very practical! |
Persephone: "I disagree with the suggestion to moving the speakers closer to the wall."
Persephone accurately and succinctly explained why this is true by stating: "That may give you more bass, but it will adversely affect the soundstage. "
atmasphere: "If you run subs moving them closer to the wall is very practical!" Atmasphere is correct whether he’s stating moving the subs closer to the wall may be very practical (either to reinforce the bass output or to keep them out of the way) or if he’s stating that moving the main speakers closer to the wall is very practical ( either to optimize their midrange, treble and stereo imaging or to keep them out of the way). Typically however, positioning the subs closer to the wall and corner results in more bass and positioning the main speakers closer to the wall results in poorer midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance being perceived at the listening seat, especially the quality of sound stage depth. I agree with both of these statements and they support my statements on my previous post about the inherent problem with obtaining, at a single designated listening seat, both very good bass performance AND very good midrange, treble and stereo imaging from a floor standing pair of speakers. The main problem is that all the drivers are permanently affixed, usually in a vertical configuration, in the same cabinet and the bass drivers therefore lack the very important ability to be separately and independently positioned in the room, and in relation to the listening seat, to optimize the bass performance along with the midrange/treble drivers lacking the ability to be separately and independently positioned in the room, and in relation to the listening seat, to optimize the midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance. One or the other can be optimized but not both since it’s highly unlikely that both are optimized at the exact same footprint location in the room. I believe most floor standing speaker owners position them in relation to their listening seat to optimize the midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance and just accept the less than optimal bass performance resulting from this compromise. My suggestion is that there’s a better solution and that floor standing speaker owners would be very pleasantly surprised by the significantly improved overall performance quality they would gain by incorporating at least a pair of good quality, properly positioned and configured subs into their systems. Of course, the bass power, impact and dynamics will definitely be improved but they’ll also clearly perceive the bass detail and realism as being significantly improved along with a greater sense of bass ease, naturalness, seamless integration with the main speakers and an improved overall stereo sound stage illusion being presented. Utilizing multiple subs in a system provides a higher capacity of bass quantity to meet any source demands but also provides significantly improved bass quality no matter the source or volume level chosen. Tim
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