Hello xcool,
Does “xcool” mean you were cool previously but not currently, or does it mean you’re multiples of cool?
One option to significantly reduce bass vibrations reaching the floor below is to place the subs on a slab of a solid material that will reflect the vibration-inducing deep bass sound waves rather than vibrating itself and transferring the vibration to the floor below. I know slabs of granite are good to use and remnant pieces at reduced prices are often available from local retail stone vendors. The bass sound waves launched from the passive bass driver, which are typically used just to vent excess air pressure from inside the sub ‘s cabinet, strike the very hard surface of the granite and are redirected out into the room through the spaces between the bottom of the sub and the surface of the granite.
I believe Subdude platforms do the same thing, but I’ve never used them, so I’m not certain.
Tim
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For HT and LFE, it may be possible to adjust the crossover frequency through your surround processor, DVD or Blu-ray player. I know both my Oppo 105 and 205 Blu-ray players have this capacity, yours may too.
Tim |
Hello cool,
Millercarbon is correct, a 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) will provide excellent bass performance throughout your entire room and integrate seamlessly with your main B&W speakers.
If you’re only concerned with attaining excellent bass performance at a single designated listening seat, however, using 2 good quality subs will will work about just as well as a 4-sub DBA. You may even be able to attain very good bass performance at a single listening seat with a single higher quality, and more expensive, sub that comes with a mic and has room correction software. You would first optimally position the single sub in your room using the crawl method (you can google it) and then utilize the room correction function to fine tune the results.
2 subs, even if they’re smaller and less expensive, will generally perform about twice as a single sub, even if it’s larger and more expensive. The benefits of using 2 subs are increased bass power and dynamics when the music calls for it, neither sub is operating near its limits and the bass will be better integrated with your main speakers. Whatever sub or subs you decide to use, it’s very important that each sub has separate controls for Volume, crossover frequency and continuously variable phase. These controls are critically important for adjusting them optimally to your room and system. It’s also beneficial for the subs to have the choice of inputs, rca line level and high level speaker wire. You’ll also notice an improved soundstage and improved midrange and treble performance of your main speakers utilizing 2 subs.
I suggest trying a pair of SVS SB-1000 subs or similar Hsu subs for about $1,000/pair.
Good luck,
Tim
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tgrisham:
”Multiple subs are not a cult but are scientifically proven to even out bass nodes but are they really necessary? Where do you want to spend your limited funds? Here is their conclusion:” Four subwoofers are enough to get the best results of any configuration tried. Two subwoofers is very nearly as good and has very good low frequency support as well.”
I think tgrisham has it about right and, if xcool would read my previous post from 4-21-20, he will discover I was stating the same thing that Harman had concluded:
” Four subwoofers are enough to get the best results of any configuration tried. Two subwoofers is very nearly as good and has very good low frequency support as well.”
I would first like all readers of this thread to understand that I have always adamantly refused to be a member of any club or Cult that would accept me as a member. After all, I believe maintaining some semblance of minimum member standards is important and I prefer the sharing of knowledge and experiences between independent and honest individuals based on their personal knowledge and experience. Isn’t this basically the purpose of this site? My sole intent for commenting on the virtues of the 4-sub DBA concept so annoyingly often has been to spread the word about an excellent bass solution concept that I researched extensively,,finally purchased and was stunned by how extremely well it performed in my room and system. I learned of the distributed bass array concept on another internet site, had been experimenting for years with single and dual subs trying to incorporate powerful, accurate, detailed, effortless, dynamicand realistic bass which I knew my various models of Magnepan main speakers notoriously lacked. I realized that many Magnepan fans claim the bass is sufficient, however, I believe the accurate and realistic reproduction of the bottom two octaves is the main distinguishing trait betweeN hearing and feeling music played live at a small venue with good acoustics and a recording of the exact same musical performance played back on a home audio system in a domestic sized room. I’m still astounded by the fact that, in over 15 years of reading and participating in thousands of threads here on a boatload of 2-ch music and HT audio reproduction subjects on a giga-plenty number of threads, I.never read a single mention of, or reference to, the DBA system concept. Maybe it was mentioned and I missed it but I would think something this effective would be mentioned, or at least referred to, on a regular basis.
Anyways, I want to make it perfectly clear that I definitely know high quality bass performance can be attained, at a single designated listening position, utilizing both 1 or 2 properly positioned subs. I know this not only from my own knowledge and experience but also from the shared knowledge and experienced numerous fellow Audiogon members. For the benefit of newbies and any others searching for good in-room bass performance, here are some lessons I’ve learned over many years of researching, learning from others and experimenting in the same search:
1. In most rooms, achieving good bass performance is more difficult than achieving good midrange, treble and imaging performance, mainly due to their very different sound wave length and propagation patterns.
2. With speakers having separate bass,midrange and treble drivers in a single cabinet, it’s highly unlikely that the optimum room location for bass performance is so close in proximity to the optimum room location for midrange, treble and imaging Performance. Bass performance is significantly improved with the drivers launching bass sound waves into the room can be independently optimally positioned.
3. Virtually all humans are unable to localize sounds, perceive exactly where the sounds are originating from, that have sound wave frequencies below about 80 Hz. Virtually all humans are increasingly adept at localizing sounds as their sound wave frequencies rise above about 80 Hz, this ability continues to be reliable up to the generally accepted high frequency human audible sound wave frequency limit of about 20,000 Hz, with this upper limit often being reduced by the aging process.
4. Virtually all commercially available audio recordings on all formats, even the audio content on DVD and Blu-ray A/V discs, have all recorded bass below about 100 Hz mixed as mono. Recording engineers mainly do this because they’ve known about point #3 above for at least the past 70 years. They also do this because very deep recorded bass tones on LPs can cause the stylus to be forced out of the groove and many mass consumer grade speakers such as sound bars, mass produced speakers and TV speakers cannot handle very deep bass frequencies without seriously distorting or even being physically damaged. Current recording technology is capable of recording bass frequencies below 100
5. Because of the reality of points #3 and #4 above, it’s fairly obvious that creating and configuring a home audio system capable of reproducing bass frequencies in true stereo makes little sense. The first dilemma is that listeners, assuming they’re all humans, will be unable to localize and perceive discrete left and right bass channels. The listeners will perceive all the discrete left and right channel bass as summed mono bass and this, by definition, prevents even the existence of the required discrete left and right channel components of a true stereo image from becoming a reality, never mind the subsequent perceived 3D stereo illusion like our brains regularly create with discrete left and right channels on sound wave frequencies above about 80 Hz.
There is no stereo imaging below about 80 Hz, it’s not even a theoretical thing due to physics and human perceptual limitations. The second dilemma is that, even if a human mutant was capable of localizing bass sounds with frequencies below 80 Hz and built an audio system with appropriately positioned left and right channel subs in preparation, there’s virtually no current commercially available recordings on any audio or HT format for our superhuman mutant to play on his hot-riddled audio system.
That’s quite a ‘chicken and egg’ sequencing dilemma, right? But all hope is not lost just yet, grasshoppers, There is one last lesson I learned along my audio journey that I sometimes like to call The Saving Grace, and most other times I just call it point#6.
6. While it’s definitely true that we can’t localize bass sounds that have sound wave frequencies below about 80 Hz, anyone who has one or more subs in their room and systems should be able to attest with absolute certainty that they are perceiving the sound in true stereo from the deepest bass notes to the highest frequency treble notes and every and all the various frequency notes in between. This holds true whether you understand or even believe points #3-5 above or not.
How is this even possible with all the truthful information I mentioned in points #3-5 above? Well, I’ll explain using my own system as an example below:
My system is located in an approximately 23’ x15’ living room with 8’ ceilings. I use a pair of 6’x2’ 3-way Magnepans panels as my main speakers. I run them full range but they only reproduce high quality bass down to a rated 35 Hz +/- 3 db. I use an Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub DBA system to reproduce bass frequencies between 20 to 40 Hz. A 1K watt class AB sub amp/control unit Is used to power and control the 4 relatively small passive subs that are each 12” x 14.5” x 28” and about 40lbs. Two of these subs are located along my front 15’ wall, with each located at opposite ends of this wall and about 2’ away away from the nearest corner. The other 2 subs are positioned along the 23’ side walls, with one on each opposite side wall about 2’ away from each rear corner. My listening seat is roughly centered on the rear 15’ wall and directly between and about 6’ away from each left right side wall sub. So, with the above setup and me sitting in my listening chair, I perceive a three dimensional soundstage along the front of my room that usually spans the full 15’ width of the room with the soundstage front usually beginning roughly at the front plane formed by the fronts of my main speakers and extending back at least the 3‘-4’ distance from the rear of my main speakers to the front wall behind them, but I often perceive the soundstage as much deeper Zane even wider on very good recordings. Even though I have a sub about 6’ away from me to the right and left, I perceive all of the bass as coming from the solid and stable stereo soundstage illusion existing In front of me at the opposite side of the room, beginning about 16’ away from me. and with the deep bass seeming to originate from the appropriate musical instruments within this illusionary soundstage.
The explanation is that while the 4 subs are reproducing and launching very long and omnidirectional deep fundamental bass sound waves and notes at frequencies as low as 20 Hz in mono throughout the room, the main speakers are reproducing and launching the much shorter and more directional midrange sound waves that are the overtones or harmonics of the original much deeper fundamental bass tones reproduced by the 4 subs. These overtones or harmonics are at frequencies that extend above the approximate 80 Hz threshold and are, therefore, able to be localized by us humans. The final key component is our amazing brains. They are able to associate the deep mono bass fundamental tones that we cannot localize with the higher frequency stereo overtones or harmonics, that extend beyond 80 Hz and are naturally related to the fundamental bas tones, that we can localize. As long as the lower frequency deeper sound waves below 80 Hz and the higher frequency overtone or harmonics sound waves above 80 Hz are both detected by our ears within a few milliseconds of each other, our brains are able to process these sound waves as related and create the perception of the overall bass tone sound and exactly where within the sound stage the tone originated from. For example, it allows the perception that there’s a double bass located at the front left side of the sound stage and the drums are located at the back center of the sound stage.
I believe that even if I configured my system with discrete left and right channel stereo subs, and there were commercially available music formats that had separate left and right channel bass content down to 20 Hz, my overall perception of the sound stage would be very similar to the current overall perception I’ve been enjoying for over 5 years now with my 4-sub DBA system. I think this would be the reality since I’d stil be iunable to localize bass tones with frequencies below about 80 Hz. Tim
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Atmasphere:”But a DBA simply does it better, that’s all. You do the DBA first, **then** the bass traps (if needed), since the DBA is far more effective at sorting out bass problems.”
Hello atmasphere,
Based on my experience using the Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub DBA for the past 5years, I believe your advise is exactly correct. I didn’t plan on buying the DBA first and then add bass traps if needed, I just happened to inadvertently follow the advice you’d give 5 years later. I used my 4-sub DBA for abut 4 years with absolutely no room treatments except wall to wall carpeting. I currently use it in a fully GIK treated room per their suggested reasonably expensive room treatment plan following a free room analysis. Their plan called for 2 of their fairly large TriTrap bass traps stacked in all 4 corners of my room, four 2’x2’x 5.5” thick bass trap wall panels. GIK’s plan also called for about sixteen 4’x2’ acoustic wall panels installed that are a combination of strategically placed absorption and diffusion panels.
My main focus for having a professional room analysis done was to determine whether room treatments could make even further incremental improvements to my system’s midrange, treble and imaging quality. I was very concerned, however, with GIK’s suggestion of fairly extensive bass traps in my room. The bass quality in my room with the DBA in use was already, at that time, what I considered near state of the art without a single bass trap. I definitely wanted to avoid compromising my system’s excellent bass quality by deploying bass traps. After receiving assurances from GIK and A K’s Duke Lejeune that was traps would not negatively effect the DBA’s bass quality, l decided to include them all in my room treatment install.
They were correct, I’ve noticed no negative effects in The DBA’s bass quality with a full complement of acoustic room treatments, including bass traps. I have noticed significant improvements in my system’s overall clarity, articulation and imaging, mainly in the midrange and treble range, I believe the bass traps helped extend this increase in overall clarity and detail down into the bass region but it’s difficult to claim with any certainty, since the bass was already very clear and detailed prior to adding the bass traps. I can state with certainty that the added bass traps have had no negative effects on the DBA’s bass quality in my room. I actually think your previous comment, I believe I read on another thread, perfectly sums up my opinion on the DBA concept in actual application: “The DBA is an elegant bass solution”. Well stated and true.
Tim |
It seems like this thread has drifted away a bit from helping the OP, xcool, with his specific bass issue and toward how to attain very good in-room bass performance in general. I think I’ve contributed to this drift off topic as much or more than anyone and I apologize to xcool for doing so.
The 4-sub DBA concept has provided the best bass quality I’ve ever experienced in my system and room. Because of this, and the fact that the DBA concept has the capacity to work equally as well in virtually any room and seamlessly integrate with any pair of main speakers, I’ve felt a responsibility to spread the word to fellow music and a/v equipment enthusiasts on the efficacy of the DBA concept. I realize that some may attribute my enthusiastic advocacy of the DBA concept to ulterior motives but I can’t control that. I can only honestly state that I have none and my intent is solely to share my very positive DBA experiences. I’m actually very surprised with the apparent lack of awareness and usage of the DBA concept here on Audiogon. It’s not exactly a new concept and it’s effectiveness has been consistently proven both scientifically and anecdotally.
However, contrary to popular belief I also realize and believe that a 4-sub DBA may not be the best bass solution for everyone, For example, the OP xcool.
The first consideration is that he lives in an apartment, with limited space and likely lease restrictions on allowable modifications he can make within it. While 4 subs would undoubtably offer the best bass performance, they may not be practical for him. But I believe even a single very good quality larger sub with rated bass extension down to 20 Hz, and optimally positioned in the room in relation to the listening seat using the crawl method, would result in a significant improvement in bass performance. It may even be possible to create a mini-DBA effect at your listening seat utilizing just 3 bass transducers in your room. One woofer in each of your main speakers equals 2 and the woofer in the added sub makes the total number of bass transducers launching bass sound waves into your room equal 3. The sub crawl method of locating the sub would ensure you don’t position the sub at a specific room position that results in standing waves and poor bass at your listening seat.
Having the added sub also capable of outputting bass down to 20 Hz could result in the perception that the overall bass extension of your system has been deepened. I want to be clear that I’m not stating this will definitely work in your room, just that it may be worth a try. I don’t think it would be difficult to find a dealer willing to let you borrow a larger, very good quality sub capable of bass extension down to 20 Hz. The second consideration is that your using B&W floor standing speakers, with the bass, midrange and treble transducers all in a single cabinet, likely arranged vertically. Assuming your positioning your main speakers like most individuals do, in a triangular configuration in relation to the listening seat to optimize the mid/treble and stereo imaging performance, the positioning of the bass drver(s) in each speaker have not been optimized in the room and in relation to your listening seat for optimum bass performance perception at the listening seat. In other words, because the bass producing woofer drivers in your main speakers are not capable of being independently positioned In your room, it’s not possible to optimize the bass quality at your listening.seat. This is an issue with virtually all floor standing full range speakers. By optimizing the mid/high frequency and stereo imaging performance at the listening seat via precise locating of the speakers in the room and in relation to the listening seat, the bass performance is compromised since the bass drivers are fixed in place, typically below the midrange driver and tweeter, and they cannot be precisely located in the room and in relation to the listening seat to optimize bass performance at the listening seat. Even if your floor standing speakers have multiple woofers or built in self amplified subs and had a rated bass extension flat down to 20 Hz, this high quality bass will not be perceived at the listening seat if they are not positioned in your room and in relation to your listening seat to optimize bass performance.
The above explains why I suggested in a prior post the use of 2 relatively small subs that can be independently positioned in your room for optimized bass performance at your listening seat such as the SVS-SB-1000 or similar Hsu subs with rated bass extension close to 20 Hz, may be the best bass solution for you. You would need to optimize the positioning of one sub first in your room using the crawl method and then optimize the room location of the other sub, with the first sub operating, and again using the crawl method. In general, 2 subs will perform and sound about twice as well as a single sub. The benefits of using 2 subs are that both subs are operating well below their limits, the bass is smoother, faster, more detailed, with a general sense of ease and the bass will be better integrated or blended with your main speakers. You also have the option of using whatever pair of subs you’d like that meet your preferences and budget.
Best wishes,
Tim |
Hello @erik_squires ,
Well, I guess we’re all fan boys of something. You seem to be a big fan of acoustic room treatments in general and GIK in particular. I’ve read many of your posts over the years praising both. I’ve always considered your posts interesting, informative and earnest. I’ve always just assumed you had treated your room most likely with GIK products, experienced very positive results and thereafter often recommended them to others due to their efficacy. I never thought of accusing you of having ulterior motives.
Have you ever considered that members of your imaginary Swarm Cult may have just independently followed similar paths as you after experiencing very positive results with their DBA systems?
Tim
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danvignau:”I use matched amps and pre-amps for my older 803's and subs. This gives me control of the bass without creating out of phase signals. It also allows me to tailor the bass for the recording. “
If your tailoring the bass for individual recordings, that indicates to me the subs are are either not positioned properly in relation to the listen seat or the primary controls on one or more subs, volume, crossover frequency and phase, are not properly set. Setting these 3 primary controls properly on each sub is very important for seamlessly integrating subs into a system and room, just as important as properly locating each sub in the room in relation to the listening seat. It’s also usually the most time consuming step When incorporating subs into the system and room. This is due to the reality that a good sampling of musical tracks, of different genres and containing significant bass content, need to be played to determine the optimum settings on these controls that provides the most natural sounding bass.
If adequate time is not devoted to thoroughly completing this step and arriving at the optimum balance of bass settings for all subs that sounds very good on all music genres listened to, individuals may feel a need to adjust these settings prior to or even during playback. Who would willingly accept doing that?
Tim
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Hello gweedoargus,
Your description makes perfect sense to me. The B&W 804 d3s are no doubt a very high quality pair of speakers with impressive bass extension down to 20 Hz +/- 3 db. However, I still think you’d be pleasantly surprised by how much a good quality pair of subs would improve the performance and enjoyment of your system.
The main reason I’m confident in this belief is only due to the fact that the 804s share a problem common to all full range tower speakers; the bass, midrange and treble drivers are all contained in the same cabinet. The main issue with this configuration is that it’s highly unlikely that the same stacked vertical footprint position of the drivers in the room, and in relation to the listening position, is optimum for midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance AND optimum bass performance.
It’s much more likely that the position of the midrange and treble drivers in the room, and in relation to the listening position, for optimum midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance are at an entirely unique. precise and separate stacked vertical footprint location than the position of the bass drivers would be in the room for optimum bass performance.
So, I’m suggesting you may want to try adding at least a pair of good quality subs to your room and system sometime if you’re feeling curious and adventurous. I think you’ll be surprised at what a significant upgrade this would make to your system for both music and HT.
Tim
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Persephone: "I disagree with the suggestion to moving the speakers closer to the wall."
Persephone accurately and succinctly explained why this is true by stating: "That may give you more bass, but it will adversely affect the soundstage. "
atmasphere: "If you run subs moving them closer to the wall is very practical!" Atmasphere is correct whether he’s stating moving the subs closer to the wall may be very practical (either to reinforce the bass output or to keep them out of the way) or if he’s stating that moving the main speakers closer to the wall is very practical ( either to optimize their midrange, treble and stereo imaging or to keep them out of the way). Typically however, positioning the subs closer to the wall and corner results in more bass and positioning the main speakers closer to the wall results in poorer midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance being perceived at the listening seat, especially the quality of sound stage depth. I agree with both of these statements and they support my statements on my previous post about the inherent problem with obtaining, at a single designated listening seat, both very good bass performance AND very good midrange, treble and stereo imaging from a floor standing pair of speakers. The main problem is that all the drivers are permanently affixed, usually in a vertical configuration, in the same cabinet and the bass drivers therefore lack the very important ability to be separately and independently positioned in the room, and in relation to the listening seat, to optimize the bass performance along with the midrange/treble drivers lacking the ability to be separately and independently positioned in the room, and in relation to the listening seat, to optimize the midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance. One or the other can be optimized but not both since it’s highly unlikely that both are optimized at the exact same footprint location in the room. I believe most floor standing speaker owners position them in relation to their listening seat to optimize the midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance and just accept the less than optimal bass performance resulting from this compromise. My suggestion is that there’s a better solution and that floor standing speaker owners would be very pleasantly surprised by the significantly improved overall performance quality they would gain by incorporating at least a pair of good quality, properly positioned and configured subs into their systems. Of course, the bass power, impact and dynamics will definitely be improved but they’ll also clearly perceive the bass detail and realism as being significantly improved along with a greater sense of bass ease, naturalness, seamless integration with the main speakers and an improved overall stereo sound stage illusion being presented. Utilizing multiple subs in a system provides a higher capacity of bass quantity to meet any source demands but also provides significantly improved bass quality no matter the source or volume level chosen. Tim
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