More Power or use subwoofer to boost bass for music

@erik_squires wrote:

"The swarm was an interesting idea which is promoted by fetishists whose motives and honesty I question...

Please mark me down as some one who no longer believes those people are well meaning. I’ll no longer bother arguing with anyone of that ilk. You have convinced me of your intension$$$$$$$$$$$$."

For the record, NOBODY here has a financial interest in the Swarm except for me.

Erik if you feel that the main fetishist behind the Swarm needs to have his motives and honesty questioned, I’d like to hear you out.

* * * *

Xcool, I apologize for entering your thread to squabble with someone. Erik and I are not enemies (far as I know), but we do have differences of opinion on some subjects (that NEVER happens among audiophiles, right??). Imo bass traps (absorbers) are not the solution when you’re trying to increase the net in-room bass energy, but I am absolutely a fan of GIK Acoustics.

Anyway let me try to offer some thoughts about your bass situation, taking into account that four small subs probably isn’t feasible:

Your B&W’s gently roll off by about 4 dB per octave from 100 Hz down to 30 Hz before boundary reinforcement according to Stereophile’s measurements, with the rolloff accelerating rapidly below 30 Hz. In rooms with generous boundary reinforcement, this can give bass extension down to 30 Hz ballpark.

Presumably your room does not provide generous boundary reinforcement at your listening position with the speaker positioning you have. Just for fun, you might try standing at the wall in the back of the room to see how the bass sounds there.

You asked about amp or sub. I am inclined to think that sub(s) will make a bigger difference, and a more fine-tuneable one. I was a Parasound dealer for many years and think your B&W’s are well within your amp’s comfort zone.

You might consider this: Adding two smallish subs, one along a side wall (but not centered), and another along the rear wall (again, not centered). Considering your B&W’s to be bass sources down to 30 Hz, this would give you four in-room bass sources, with two of them (your B&W’s) symmetrical with respect to one another, and the other two asymmetrically placed. I can explain why this might be beneficial if you would like.

I see now that this suggestion is pretty much a repeat of heaudio123’s post above. Nice job, heaudio123.

Xcool, best of luck with your quest.

Duke
Grand Poobah of the Swarm Fetish Cult

@jl35 wrote: "when using 2 subs with floor standers, do they need to be identical or can they be close models..."  

They do not need to be the same. 

Duke

Posted by Erik Squires in this thread:

" Jesus, the 4 sub cult is strong here. "

" The cult: Your problem is you have 1/3 the number of speakers you need!! You must add 4 more, bring it up to six!!! "

" What I have a problem with is the cult that they are the one thing that should be discussed when a poster asks for help with a little more bass. "

" Are any of you listening to yourselves?? Really?? "

" Hahahha. Cult. "

" The swarm was an interesting idea which is promoted by fetishists whose motives and honesty I question. "

" To hear the fanatics tell it, no one has even heard bass before them, and only they can fix it. Also, only they know about room acoustics. It’s magic. Ignore all the previous work that has gone before, because it’s bunk before the swarm. "

" You have convinced me of your intension$$$$$$$$$$$$. "

" People can ask about FM tuners and some one will jump in to recommend the swarm as a fix. "

" It’s not the technology, it is the cult and those who push it. "

Erik, I really am surprised to see you engage in what looks to me like name-calling, straw man arguments, mocking, innuendo, and hyperbole... though I must admit the one about FM tuners was kinda funny.

Maybe there is a different way for you to perceive people who advocate a technology which you concede has merit? Maybe they are not enemies, but fellow audiophiles who are sometimes overly enthusiastic about something?

Nobody here is taking offense and/or accusing you of cultish behavior because you consistently advocate for room treatments, another technology which has merit. That would be out of place, wouldn’t it?

Hopefully we can get to the point where we can disagree without being disagreeable.

Duke

Xcool wrote:  

" Actually, overall it didn't sound that great in the Magnolia show room.  I thought the speakers were very bright, but it did leave an impression of good bass.  I vaguely remember it was driven by a Rotel Integrated. " 

My understanding is that Rotels have tone controls, so it is POSSIBLE that the bass (and perhaps also the treble) were boosted when you heard the B&W's.  Boosted bass & treble tends to sound impressive in a quick audition, so back in the day when tone controls were the norm rather than the exception it was something we had to watch out for. 

Schitt makes a very nice and nicely-priced external tone control unit called the Loki which you could add to your system. 

(At RMAF 2017, Schitt was displaying in the room next to ours.  I proposed a trade:  a pair of my speakers for one of their amps.  They declined; apparently my speakers aren't worth a Schitt... sorry, couldn't resist... ) 

Duke

@erik_squires wrote: "Maybe there’s a different way for swarm fan boys to behave more respectfully towards others and try to answer the OP’s question without asking him to triple the number of speakers in his home??"

"Swarm fan boys" are not perfect either, and neither am I. I have seen "swarm fan boys" come across as mocking other solutions, and hope I have not done that. But I didn’t see them labelling others as a "cult" or accusing them of dishonesty.

Erik: "Invariably, the swarm people attempt sideline any other solution that is not swarm."

"Invariably"? This is an exaggeration. As far as "sidelining any other solution", that’s a judgment call; could such terminology be applied to your posts advocating room treatments? In practice nobody has time to make a truly comprehensive post so we focus on a few things.

"My perception of the intent of the swarm promoters has gone from thinking they are merely happy fanboys to something entirely different as a result of enough interactions."

This is innuendo, and assumes the worst about a whole group of people based on interaction with a few. And in case you are implying that there is some sort of "promotion" effort by "swarm promoters", I have NEVER asked any of my customers to either post, or not post, anything. I seldom even thank them.

"The combination of lack of acceptance of previous knowledge and science as well as the attempt of fitting into every system..."

These are exaggerations.

"... and random people showing up trying to make up reasons why only swarm could possibly work".

I have not noticed these alleged posts by random people, can you point them out? And did they REALLY say that "only swarm could possibly work"?

"... and misquoting experts..."

That’s possible, but not necessarily evidence of nefarious intentions. Can you show me?

"I cannot imagine this type of behavior as coming from sincerity anymore."

When we assume the worst about someone else, who does that say the most about, them or us?

"Maybe there’s a way the swarm cult can stop thinking I’m a fool who would not notice?"

Name-calling, and assuming facts not in evidence.

Erik, I do not question your integrity. I think you are sincerely pissed off, and I think you are seeing what you want to see. I also think that’s a choice, but of a type we tend not to be aware of.  I think you are defending something which does not need defending. 

"Just spit balling."

Me too.

Duke

Xcool wrote: "Later that evening the building manager sent out an email to all residents that he received a complaint from some residents that they hear very loud bass music coming through their wall..."

My guess is that the heavy passive radiator moving up and down was effectively transmitting its vibrations into the floor itself, whereas if that motion had been in the horizontal plane the vibration transmission to the floor would have been much less.

In addition to avoiding vertical cone motion, you might consider the use of an isolation platform such as the Auralex SubDude. It is designed to very significantly reduce the transmission of vibrations to your floor.

Air-borne vibrations are more of a challenge because that’s what sound waves are. One possible strategy would be to place the subwoofer as close to the listening position as possible, so that you don’t have to turn it up quite as loud.

Duke

Xcool asked,

" Do you have any suggestion on reducing vibration to the wall behind and to the side of my subwoofer? Would acoustic panel or bass trap help? "

To the extent that the vibrations in the walls are structure-borne, the SVS SoundPath Isolator should help.

As for reducing air-borne vibrations by using an acoustic panel or bass trap, I don’t know how effective that would be, nor the best way to go about it.

This is much more likely to fall within @erik_squires’ area of expertise. Erik?

Duke