MoFi controversy

@rauliruegas

After what I posted here : do you still think that I must return the caps to the woofers crossover?

As @theaudioamp pointed out, some music may sound alright but other music may not; its likely the speakers will be less neutral due to distortion and frequency response variation. Since they are not rolling off correctly per the design of the speaker there will be too much energy in the range above the normal operation of the woofers.

Is the intention of suit to drive Mofi out of business?

IMO, someone with enough excess time and money is imposing a lawsuit because they can.

You have got to be kidding me. I own dozens of Original Master Recordings from Mofi including a couple of One Steps, and would be upset if a ridiculous lawsuit caused them to go bankrupt. Whoever is suing them must not be a music lover, because it would lead to less competition and manufacturing of audiophile recordings.

I am not a lawyer (thankfully) but IMHO the only outcome of any lawsuit would be for MOFI to state the source/pressing process of each of their records, which they are now doing. The other damages are impossible to measure, and the only one getting paid would be the lawyers. We know what Bob Cray said about them....

Anyone trying to speculate buying their records and never playing them deserves what they get. For those of us who play them, we get the enjoyment, and if their value goes down as a result of this PR/Marketing blunder, so be it - that's life in the big city. I'm not selling - that will be my kids or wife's loss.

Dear @atmasphere  . : Thank's, I already understand that but as anything in audio always exist a trade off and we need to choose what we think is the best trade-off and seems to me that the crossover caps makes more degradation to the signal reproduced by those woofers that the eventually " distortion " generated with out the caps.

In the other side those woofers goes down to 16hz and common sense ( not with technical foundation. ) tells me that it does not play way higher than its crossover design at 450 and as a fact still have a first order filter through the in series inductor.

Anyway, you explanation appreciated. Thank's again.

R.

In the other side those woofers goes down to 16hz and common sense ( not with technical foundation. ) tells me that it does not play way higher than its crossover design at 450 and as a fact still have a first order filter through the in series inductor.

@rauliruegas My woofers can go that low too. They are crossed over at 500Hz and have significant output well above 1500Hz; I would expect yours do too. If I were you I'd be looking at a better quality capacitor rather than simply removing them.

Americans love to sue, sue, sue and that is what is on full display here there is no demonstration of any suffering, loss, or injury just a chance to pick up some $$$USD.

Dear @atmasphere : " If I were you I’d be looking at a better quality capacitor rather than simply removing them. "

One of the latest 5 years targets in my system was changes inside my speakers to improve its QS and was precisely to find out the best caps out there and that " find out " took me as 3 years of tests, patience and a lot of money till I choosed the best caps no matter what.

But even that with not only a truly neutral cap with very low developed distortions and that in any operation condition makes the rigth job still the best cap is no cap at all and that’s why the trade-off I choosed is no cap.

Yesterday I remember whom was the ADS L 2030 designer that after left ADS ( several years ago ) started his own speaker manufacture that’s Aerial Acoustics and I sended an email asking for his advice. He was the creator of my loudspeakers. We will see.

Btw, maybe you or some one else could think that if I spended heavy money with the caps adventure why not put that money in a new speakers and seems logic but it's not only that I'm accustom to my ADS but that are really good performers even today and in the other side maybe I need over 50K to be in the same league than my ADS and need more money than that to outperformed and who knows about because all those very good and very expensive speakers its crossovers are full of bs " boutique/fancy " caps that's what the audiophiles are looking for but all of them from Duelund to teflon V-caps and passing for Mundorf ant the like are way colored caps, as a fact the less colored of those  kind of caps are the Alumen by jantzen. Another issue with those expensive speakers is that in the crossovers almost always use by-pass caps as the Duelund silver that almost all audiophiles love and that been a by-pass is almost stupid because helps to nothing down there. Anyway, I will wait for the L 2030 designer advise.

R.

@atmasphere  and audiophiles : This link confirm what I posted ( I try not to post just at " random ". ):  that a 300K price tag speakers uses caps as " equalizers " too due to its heavy colorations against " neutrality ". This beautiful made Tidal top of the line use 5 different caps between the Duelund models , Mundorf model and Audyn ones and it uses too the " terrible " Duelund resistors that I know are " terrible " because I used in my speakers and by coincidence under measurements along other resistors the Duelund were really bad.. It looks " impressive " and what Tidal said is true : a Tidal stand alone crossover has a higher price than top pair of speakers. Go figure ! ! :

Well, there is nothing new if you know where and what to look for.

R.

Tonight I decided to do a shoot out between my MoFi ’Anadisc’ Muddy Waters ’Folk Singer’ and the newly released ’One Step’ of the same title.I had done a similar ’AB’ when I first acquired the ’One Step’ and in some ways i felt it to better the ’Anadisc’.

One thing I had noticed on the first ’AB’ was that the ’One Step’ seemed to be a little more specific in its soundstage reproduction.Tonight, I began to hear where the ’Anadisc’ has it all over the new release...and it is in the ’warmth’ of Buddy and Muddy’s guitars. To that, the ’Anadisc’ is far more dynamic when it comes to Muddy’s voice...I had noticed this aspect before, but thought it might have been because the ’One Step’ had been mastered at a lower level..Now I believe the DSD step is the culprit here.Why MoFi could not have used the AAA master for their ’One Step’ is unknown, but of all of the ’One Step’s I own, I think the biggest error they made was not using the incredible sounding original master for this one!

@daveyf: I too have the old MoFi Folk Singer, and have never felt the need to own another version. But Analogue Productions has a 1-LP/33-1/3 RPM version of the album, as well as a 2-LP/45 RPM, and I’ll bet they’re the best of them all. $40 and $60, respectively.

The AP UHQR version of Kind Of Blue certainly improves on the MoFi version. The AP LP was made from the metal works Bernie Grundman made for Classic Records back in '97. He took possession of the 1/2" 3-track analog master tape from Sony (Sony was doing that at the time, at least for Grundman, whose facility, like the Sony offices, was located in NYC), mixing the 3 tracks to 2 live as he fed the output of his 3-track playback machine directly into his lacquer cutter! No tape copying done, either analog or digital!! 

Dear @daveyf  and friends : Folk Singer is just another very good recording and always will be " Folk Singer " and your experience obviously is system dependet.

I posted before " since when MoFi was doing digital " and well since 2011 and way before that some of us posted here that many non-MoFi LPs were digital recorded and not only almost all of you just did not care about but even blamed to the one that posted on.

Today that all know for sure about the LP digital recording every one blame MoFi when in the past almost no one of you took in count that several MoFi were digital as I posted many years ago and several times and not only with MoFi.

The analog recording industry ( AP, Music Direct, Elusive, Classic records, and many more ) in reality grow-up mainly with LP re-issues and with nothing really new recordings but re-issues: 3, 4 or even 7/8 different kind of same title re-issues and almost all of us were buying as crazy horses. Every new reissue ( no matter what. ) we buy it. Why, who cares ! ! 

The LP stampede started around 20 years ago and it follows today and this thread confirm that stampede.

3/4 years ago I left it. I made a stop in the road and asked my self: why in hell am I running in this long no sense LP stampede when there is nothing new ? and since then I stop to buy re-issues no matters what.

The best QS LP  happened way before the " stampede " with some of the D2D by Sheffield, M&K, Cristal Clear and the like that even today can´t be ouperformed and the AP efforst with its D2D recordings was not not only near those references but really bad D2D recordings.

For years I posted that digital medium is the superior alternative and no one today can't stop digital that always will be better. The One Step re-issues confirm that.

R.

Anyway, the world is in continuous movement and a lot of people have no other best way of life that spend any kind of money for truly little rewards but such is life.

@rauliruegas: Yes, direct-to-disc LP's (for you youngins, no tape recorder of any kind is employed, analogue or digital. The output of the microphone mixing console goes straight to the lathe cutting the lacquer) remain the by-a-wide-margin most-alive sounding musical format I've heard. But very few musicians and singers are capable of making records that way.

I suspected all along that MOFI were using a Digital step in the process simply because they WEREN'T plastering AAA stickers all over the outside of their product the way some other's were doing...Analogue Productions for one.

Dear @bdp24  : Yes you are rigth because in D2D there is no chance to editing or second take and the players play under heavy stress but not only that because you need engeenering/gentlemans that really have deep knowledge, skills and experience with that kind of demanding recording proccess for even they.

Analog Production/AcousticSound recorded a D2D series and I have to say that all samples are really a dissapointment against Sheffield/M&K experiences.

So not easy for any one to do it.

Now @alexberger  posted that who needs those One Step recordings when we can get the DSD direct version. We have to remember that any digital copy of PCM/DSD are and original master nothing less than that.

DSD and even 32/384 PCM recordings beats analog and nothing wrong with that due that every technology out there works inside its limits an pure analog can't do better today when digital " everyday " is growing-up.

R.

@rauliruegas Raul, you are using Jim Davis’ justification for using a DSD step in his ’supposedly’ all analog releases. Davis stated that he and MoFI thought that the DSD recording sounded better than the AAA tape. I have a hard time believing that, because there are clearly a number of other reasons that Davis would come up with that justification...cost, ease of use etc., Besides this is not the point here, even if Davis is correct, because the point is he was still making sure that MoFi and everybody connected to them was propagating a lie for years to their consumers...and I think we all know the reason why!

Exactly, @daveyf. It’s fine that MoFi decided they prefer DSD to analog, but they then shouldn’t have continued to claim they were cutting their LP’s from analog master tapes. That was, of course, a deliberate, intentional lie.

And by the way, Analogue Productions IS cutting from analog masters, and their LP’s in many cases sound better than MoFi’s (it is not hyperbole to say that the AP LP of Cat Stevens’ Tea For The Tillerman destroys the MoFi. It is also better than the original on UK Island. I've owned all three, now having only the AP.) . Same with a number of other audiophile reissue labels, including Speakers Corner, Intervention, and Craft.

FWIW, AP's 2 disc 45 RPM Folk Singer is clearly superior, in my system, to the One Step Folk Singer.  Live and learn- 

agree with @daveyf , digital is easy to edit, but does not have the SQ that all analogue does. DSD must go through several D to D conversions if any editing is done. Don't forget you cannot edit a file in the DSD domain. File has to be converted to PCM first. Even if the DSD file is converted to PCM 24/192 its still a conversion. Once editing is done, then file has to be converted back to DSD.  

Let’s slow down a little. MoFi says they convert the DSD file back to analog for mastering. They say they do not convert it to PCM for mastering. I don’t have any direct knowledge of what they do, so I can’t say for sure what they do, but that is what they are saying now.

Be interesting to see if this affects sales of their new tables…

Not saying it should…but…to me it tarnishes the entire brand.

I don’t own any Mofi pressings anymore…the original pressings always sounded as good or better to me…I did have a Dark Side of the Moon “Half Speed Master” I sold for big bucks… the half speed master stuff now seems a bit dubious too.

I was actually considering one of their tables recently…might still grab one someday…but would definitely be looking for good discounts.

@tomcy6 

So what is the significance of MoFi claiming that there final conversion to analog comes from DSD instead of PCM?
 1) to me this is a tacit admission that DSD is at least as good, if not better, than pure analog, if MoFi feels that stressing this point will do damage mitigation 

2) it therefore follows from 1 that playing a DSD files purely in the digital realm, as opposed to embedding those files in a slab of petroleum and then extracting them with a needle slashing through grooves, must be a superior way of reproducing those files.

3) listeners who think that those aforementioned digital files embedded in petroleum sound better than when those files are kept purely in the digital realm are in fact enjoying the reproduction of artifact.

Now I am ok with people enjoying artifact.  What has always been bothersome about the Analog or Die! crowd is the pseudo religiosity of their movement.  Consider:

1) They assert that there is only one true path

2) We had fallen from Grace by abandoning that true path ( adopting digital)

3) A few Righteous Prophets kept the flame alive during the persecution (the years of Digital Ascendancy and the near disappearance of Vinyl)

4) Now the Truth has been revealed! The Righteous have triumphed! LPs reign again!
5) Non believers can be saved only by converting to the true path .  And sinners that secretly dabble in alternative religions and are discovered must be cast out.  Therefore M. Fremer must cast out those MoFi records that he previously extolled because they have been found to be unclean.

  I could go on but enough already.  I am getting back into vinyl because:

1) some lps in my preferred genre are not available digitally 

2) some remastered lps sound terrible and are sonically preferable , warts and all, in the original vinyl issue

3) lp playback can be enjoyable for reasons unrelated to sound quality.

  I just want to listen to music.  I don’t need the whole dogma that comes with various media.  And I am pleasantly surprised that most of the posts that I have read here are from like thinkers

@mahler123 - please don't lump me in with the religious vinyl fanatics out there. If there is anyone who thinks it is impossible for some form of digital audio to sound better on some albums (or at least as good as vinyl), they are nuts. Especially since many were recorded digitally. I never had a reel to reel player, but it seems the religious vinyl nuts should try that - supposedly there is universal agreement that it is better than vinyl.

In general, I avoid fanatics about anything. Fans are OK - fanatics/extremists, not so much.

I had a CD player because I couldn't get new vinyl in the 90's. Unplugged it when vinyl became available again about 10 years later. Bought the ones I liked the most on vinyl and kept the CDs for the car and garage. To me vinyl sounded much better, except with the rare noisy record. 

Since then, CD players have improved, streaming came along, Hi res DLs became available, etc. I had/have a very nice collection of vinyl (some audiophile pressings are excellent - some aren't) and wasn't going to move to digital. However, if I were starting out today, I would go digital of some sort. Probably streaming....

@mahler123, You misunderstood my post. johnss made a post about MoFi converting its DSD files to PCM for mastering, adding more conversions to their mastering process. I just stated that at this point MoFi says they do not convert their DSD files to PCM for mastering, they convert the DSD files back to analog for mastering. I can’t vouch for MoFi, we’ll just have to wait and see how this all plays out.

I don't have any problem with DSD, PCM or analog.  They all can sound great.

they could convert back to analogue to edit and eq the file, then when done convert back to DSD. A lot of steps of A to D, D to A to edit then back to A to D. Then D to A again when you cut the lacquer. Each step misses a little bit of info each time. 

My understanding of the process, but who really knows...  

Start with Master tape, record with DSD while adjusting for tape head azimuth, splice together in digital domain, ?convert to analog?, ?master in analog domain?, cut lacquer.

I don't care one way or the other, but I thought the main point of this MoFi controversy wasn't so much the sound - a lot of these vinyl guys are saying the sound is excellent on a lot of these - but that they are paying large amounts of money for something that is different from what they thought they were paying for. 

Yes some people are really upset that MoFi vinyl has a digital step in the process that no one was informed of.  There is a thread on this over a thousand pages long on the Steve Hoffman Music Forums.  I suggest that anyone who wants delve deep into this matter seek out that thread:

Steve Hoffman MoFi DSD Vinyl thread

@larsman  +1

You are correct, the anger at Mo-Lie is due to the 'bait and switch' tactics that were used to lure the a'phile community into paying more $$ for the 'One Steps' ;wherein all the while withholding a specific step that Mo-Lie knew would severely and negatively impact their desire to the consumer and their profit center.

I am still stuck at people spending a $100+ for a record?

It's what a person spends on food in Eastern Europe in 2 to 3 weeks. 

I feel bad when I pay more than $10 for a used record. 

This wealth and spending is beyond my imagination. 

From that point of view, MoFi has created a miracle drug. 

Hey @grislybutter - if you really want to blow your mind, check out Better Records. They recently had a copy of Aja listed for $899! It’s been well cleaned though….

i have a couple of the One Steps, and they sound amazing. I only got them because a dealer took a few of my older audiophile records in trade (which I never listened to). 
 

If this controversy makes the prices of these go down, maybe I would get a few more. If it makes scalpers avoid getting involved, all the better- more for the people who actually listen to them.

I think the guy who made the video is too serious or self righteous when he says he wants “the analogue experience”. Doesn’t he want the best listening experience? I kind of feel sorry for him- he seems like a guy who I is never happy, especially if the value of his Mofi inventory takes a hit because of an issue he helped emerge, which true audiophiles couldn’t care less about.

@sokogear

I should listen to a MoFi record before I judge but I doubt that on my "15 MoFi Record" costing system I would hear a huge difference. But even if there was, I would still buy 10 old albums from the money than one MoFi records.

I love the analog sound and I am very confused about digitally stored content being cut onto a record (or however you say it?)

If it’s digital, isn’t there a simpler way to transfer IT to the customer’s living room?

Having said all that, I am probably in the camp that thinks he loves the analog sound but actually has no clue, I’d only know it’s analog because I see the turntable spinning

The only "controversy" is that they record so much sh*tty music so well.

@grislybutter - the comparison should be the price of the audiophile records versus regular NEW records. Typical records, sometimes 180g these days, go for $20-$25. Audiophile pressings are around $35-$40. 45's usually up the price by $20 or so. All of these do sound better, and IMHO are worth the difference (45s if I really like the record), if they are available. There is a reason the popular titles sell out so quickly. There are a lot of people out there who agree with me. As a matter of fact, Somethin' Else (Cannonball Adderley with Miles) is sold out in  preorder in the One Step! Luckily I got my order in.

An excellent 45 from say Acoustic Sounds/Quality Record Productions goes for $60. Add in the deluxe packaging and more expensive pressing process, and the One Steps should go for $85-$90 in my estimation. The collectibility/branding makes up the difference. If this issue reduces that part of the value on the resale market to these type numbers, all the better. If it costs me by reducing the estimated value of my audiophile collection of Original Master Recordings, UHQRs and One Steps, I'm OK with that, since I am not selling, and I can buy others at a better price. It'll cost my wife or kids I guess if they sell them when I'm in a box. They'll never know the difference.

And yes it would be simpler to transfer the music in a Hi Rez download, but it costs way less, that is why records cost more.

And you do have a clue, because I would challenge any "golden ear" person to play a vinyl record and say whether there was any digital mastering involved. The point, in my mind of the One Steps was a better pressing of the record by simplifying that process, not so much the mastering in Analogue.

@sokogear 

thanks for the explanation, it's a lot to consider (like wine - when most people just get a buzz but the few...)

I did look at Better Records. I was put off by their list of some really mediocre music, as @secretguy  noted

I still believe one would need a very good system to get the most out of $10 vs $100 records. 

I am afraid these albums won't get cheaper, but I don't mind browsing local  record stores and finding gems - once in a while. 

Q: if they have 5 copies of the same album, what should I look for? How would I know if one is better than the other?

@grislybutter - they're not $10 records you're comparing them to. They're $20-$25 records if new. If they are 45's they are more. The One Steps are mainly 45's and they are $125. The 33s are $100. Compare apples to apples....

I avoid used records at all costs because you don't know what you are getting, although I am sure there are some bargains available. I've been able to pick up some NEW records on eBay for $12-$15.

The One Steps have already gone down a bit on Discogs, some titles more than others. I hope it continues.

Usually record stores price their used records based on condition (or maybe how much they paid for it, which should be based on condition), so the more you pay, the better SQ you get.

In terms of getting "the most" out of a record, that is impossible to assess. I would say more like the value, which is in the eye of the consumer. My cousin has a couple thousand dollar system that he thinks is very good and has other priorities than upgrading it (and that is really all that matters) and he appreciates better sounding records and buys them sometimes. I consider my low 5 figure system beyond very good (and don't want to invest a lot more - I've built it incrementally over 40+ years, never in big chunks) but plenty of people spend high five into 6 figures, some even 7! If you're playing with Monopoly money, why not? It must be nice. I just hope those people have the room acoustics to justify it. My brother in law has spent probably $60K or more on his system and it is in his office! (maybe 10x12) with speakers close to the wall because he can't move them out due to space limitations. 

@sokogear I wonder what speakers and turntable you have - now - that you know so much about records. 

Monopoly money - must be nice!

If I spend high-dollar value for a specific thing, I feel ripped off if that thing is not what it’s supposed to be.

We buy analog stuff for a reason.

The “stop complaining if it sounds good” argument is nil.

Side-stepping honesty as a company is bad.

Would you rather have bad sounding AAAA stuff? I buy it because it sounds good. They have since expanded on their explanation and describe what size and speed tape they use and the size of the data files. If that reduces their demand, all the better for me and the true audiophiles.

@grislybutter - yes it must be nice. Not me though- it’s all hard earned cash. I have a Rega P8 on top of a Townshend seismic platform sitting on a wall mounted shelf for max isolation. Cartridge and phono stage are also very important - (importance is reduced as you go down the signal path) van den Hul MC One Special and Sutherland Insight LPS. I feel the source is the most important so I purposely have spent less than what is typical on my speakers, KEF R500s. To round it out, I have. Plinius 8200MK II integrated amp and a nice Puritan Power conditioner. Traded in gear on most, and bought used, demos or close outs, except Rega.

I have enjoyed Mobile Fidelity MoFi Original Master Recordings since the seventies. It seems criminal and counterproductive in our tiny hobby to financially punish anyone. If you don’t like what they make, don’t buy them. Now it is sad that they chose to not be fully transparent, to offer "deception by omission". I can forgive them for this and move on. I’ll keep my old MoFi And continue to buy new issues, because they sound fine to me!

Being punitive helps no one. It’s just mean spirited. Life is too short for that nonsense.

mahler123 You covered the issue at hand with remarkable precision and clarity. Well done. I fully agree  

Happy MoFi listening. Thank you MoFi

Perhaps Sony/Philips should be punished (also) for having uttered the phrase “Perfect Sound Forever”? Or not. 

@sokogear 

Thanks for sharing, that's a pretty smart system! I agree that your high end is not your speakers (and I am not a huge KEF fan, I think they are great, just not warm, but super clean and fast), and I only learned now that speakers are not the be all end all of a system. 

I neglected my source and just upgraded to a Rega P3 (used) and I am very happy. The P8 looks and must be incredible!

The arm (RB880) is incredible. The table itself has some incremental upgrades from  my old P5 also. Its my biggest investment, but worth it to me.

@grislybutter -  Forgot to mention gris - I like clean, detailed and dynamic, to me warm means distortion. That's why I like the KEFs.

Also, I think they represent excellent value because they are made in China at a much lower cost (although with what China is doing now, I probably wouldn't buy them). If they were made in Kent, England like the Reference and Blade series', I bet their price would probably by 50-75% higher, so for me to get a noticeable speaker upgrade of my liking, it would probably cost me net (after trade) at least $5-6K, way more than I have ever spent at one time. Plus, I bought Symposium stealth platforms (custom sized) for under the KEFs which made a nice impact, reducing the noise floor beyond the standard spike/disc combo that is included with the speakers.

@sokogear

my ears like warm for vocals and brass instrument. For the rest I am OK with "analytic" which is I think KEF is. Not to mention KEF is probably also "unforgiving" which is the same as precise (not bad, just needs good inputs)

I wish I could afford not to buy expensive stuff from China. But when it means a 1000 dollars less, my morals are hiding in a closet :(

But it's kind of like "I brought Swiss chocolate in Geneva" vs. "I bought it in the corner grocery store" - they are probably the same. If it was swiss watch made in China that may be different

@grislybutter  - That is why the source is so important to my system and why I don't tolerate inferior quality records. I think there is good depth to the sound without the fuzziness, and of course high detail and very fast transients.

For my speakers, it would probably have been $2-3K more....

Hurry, only 10K Lps " left ":

R.

Hey Raul - where did you get that (only $10K left) from? They’re selling it for almost double retail. It’s sold out on the retailers who carry them straight from Mofi, Acoustic Sounds and Music Direct.
 

You can probably get a better deal from private scalpers on Discogs. That’s the  least expensive of all the Ultra Disc One Steps.